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Old 02-19-2014, 08:35 AM   #301
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:27 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by LoCarbGal View Post
Aw, 'Nilla.

If that 6 days on 1 day off LC would work, it sounds great. My experience with LC has always been that deviating in the least causes quick gains and the return of cravings/disappearance of appetite control. So I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be for me. Obviously some people can do it and succeed, so if you decide to try that, good luck to you!
I can do just one day because I typically let Saturdays be my carbier day. Now, if it's a few days (holidays) when the carbs are higher, it can take a couple/few days to get the appetite back under control. But one day I can do. The only reason I even up the carbs on Saturday is that's our typical eating out day. And frankly, I get tired of pretty much eggs and bacon for a breakfast out and a bunless burger for dinner out every week (I'm not a steak person, don't like fish).

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Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
That does sound do-able, Nilla. IF, like LCG said, you can do it. I found that while I was LCing, any deviation resulted in an immediate gain...then a week to get it off. So, it would probably work for me for maintenance but not to lose. It would be great if it works for you for weight loss as well!

I'm just JUDDDing right now, and still over my first day weigh-in this month. I was up a little then, so it is discouraging. However, I do enjoy the feeling of DDs and I feel better physically. Sooner or later, I have to start losing again, don't I?
It's only on DD's like yesterday - hungrier than usual - that it's hard to stay on track. If I had some bonified NSV's to keep me going, hungrier DD's would be easier to hang with. Thankfully, I don't have many hard DD's. Yes, at some point you should and deserve to begin losing again.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:10 AM   #303
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I learned 2 lessons yesterday with my Cheesecake Bite Fiasco!
(even 'bad' days are helpful on JUDDD)
1) I am nowhere near ready for sweet treats in the house. Especially not frozen treats.
2) I tend to 'hoard' calories on UDs. It is like I am afraid of them. I am much more obsessed on UD than I am on DDs. Then I deny myself all day and feel almost driven to have something that I may or may not want moving forward or something that is 'naughty'. It has never occurred to me that I can be satisfied w/ nutritious food. My dysfunctional relationship w/ eating is very apparent.
2b: UP Day is not a reward for fasting. No need to think I need treats.
2c: UP Day is an opportunity to nourish, not abuse my body.

I am taking some steps to help w/ this recognized issue:
I put my food plan in my tracker for today (DD) and it is a comfort to see that I can have plenty of food to ward off death by starvation (LOL)
Most importantly I put in my meal plan for tomorrow (UD) to be amazed at the delicious and nutritious food I can have. I am also amazed to see that I can have so very much food. Real food.
JUDDD is like taking an accelerated course in 'PAT' I have a revelation daily.
Thanks for allowing me to process this here.
I KNOW this is your thread, LG, I just learned so much here I felt it appropriate to post here. Okay with you?
Thanks
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Quote from SoHappy: I realized the world would never run out of goodies. I could have them forever. I didn't have to eat them every day, every Up Day, or even every week anymore.

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Old 02-19-2014, 11:20 AM   #304
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Really good stuff Pat! There's something about JUDDD that facilitates this learning process. I'm not sure why. But it's so true. I'm glad you've learned these lessons about yourself and now have a plan!
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:42 AM   #305
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This is not my thread, Pat. This is a thread for anyone who wants to discuss issues related to JUDDD or frustration, etc. I hope it's helpful for everyone.

I think you made a great discovery, and it's one I'm still working on a year into JUDDDing. The opportunity to eat nutritious food--not the opportunity to "reward" ourselves for fasting. I like that.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:54 PM   #306
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Pat, I've been JUDDDing for a year and a half, and I still have those lessons to learn.

It's a two-sided issue, because saying "I can have that tomorrow" can really help on a down day, but I've gone more the other way where I'm thinking ... tomorrow's a down day, I need to eat while I can! (and I don't really need to). I'm experimenting to find out if better nutrition (especially protein) on UDs helps with this. I'm hoping yes.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:18 AM   #307
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Pat, your revelations have been my revelations, too. I'm in the end of my 3rd week of this and it has been 100% harder than the first two weeks. 2 of my 3 UDs have become UUADs. And each DD has been a little over my 400 goal. The worst part is that I am obsessing over my food this week. I want every piece of chocolate on the planet. It's the week before TOM, & that has always been my worst week diet wise. So here's to hoping next week is as good as weeks 1 & 2 were!

We'll just keep plodding a long. Losing weight (however slowly) and learning a ton about ourselves in the process!

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Old 02-20-2014, 08:59 AM   #308
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Oh, I have followed this thread from the beginning. I just watched Dr Oz yesterday and his guest, Jorge Cruise, reminded me of this thread. He has a new book out (surprise, surprise-the reason for being on Dr Oz!!) and was discussing it with Dr Oz. It was about "Happy Hormones Slim Belly" and the gist of it was carb cycling. You do 5 days low carb and 2 days higher carb. I know it was discussed in here about 1 day of carbs and the rest of them low carb. But Jorge explained why it was good to do 2 days of carbs. It makes you happy! But the 5 other days make it so you can lose. If you look up on "A" about the book he says it has to do with hormones and being over 40. I hate to admit that I am of that age where things are starting to really suck and I have to watch what I eat. I love to eat and just cannot wrap around it in my head that I need to cut back, cut down or anything out. Anyhow, just another idea about what "diet" is right for us.

Oh, and the clip should be up on Dr Oz by now since his segment was on yesterday. I encourage you to take a look because Jorge explains the science behind his newest book.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:12 AM   #309
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Did he say if there were any fat restrictions on the carb days? Most people think a refeed (carb up day) means ice cream, cookies and pizza but a true refeed is usually very low fat and very little sugar. It's supposed to be massive amounts of plain, simple carbs like plain white rice, plain potatoes, etc along with very lean protein. They aren't as much fun as they sound. Most people fail on carb cycling because they eat massive amounts of junk on refeed days and they gain back all the fat they lost during the week.

This guy's plan may be different but I'm guessing there is a gotcha in there.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:35 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by FrostyBeav View Post
Did he say if there were any fat restrictions on the carb days? Most people think a refeed (carb up day) means ice cream, cookies and pizza but a true refeed is usually very low fat and very little sugar. It's supposed to be massive amounts of plain, simple carbs like plain white rice, plain potatoes, etc along with very lean protein. They aren't as much fun as they sound. Most people fail on carb cycling because they eat massive amounts of junk on refeed days and they gain back all the fat they lost during the week.

This guy's plan may be different but I'm guessing there is a gotcha in there.
Nope. He explained it in the segment. I was cooking dinner while it was on, so I missed a lot. Jorge did say to avoid the white flours and other things. He advocates a low carb way of eating. He did some examples of what to eat, and included the cauliflower pizza and things like that. I suggest you watch the clip. It was not on for long Another of his books is called "The 100: Only count sugar calories" so his slant is most definitely watching what you eat and making sure it isn't junk.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:41 AM   #311
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Here is something copied and pasted from a review:

"Happy Hormones, Slim Belly is an easy to read book that follows up on the author's previous diet plans, this time targeting women over 40 and their special needs. The author does take pains to note that the diet is suitable for all ages and genders but especially for older women. He cites studies of how pre-menopausal and menopausal women have hormonal issues that make their cravings and weight loss a problematic endeavor when using other diet plans."

Just letting you know that as you age, it IS harder to lose weight. Here is someone who is taking into account our hormones and how women work! Just one more thing to think about when considering what is going on when the scale is not moving or it is just plain HARD to lose!!! I think it all comes down to hormones and the reason why it is harder or us ladies to lose weight. He is just telling you how to do it in a way that won't make you crazy. he wants you happy! Now mind you, I have not tried his way, I don't advocate for it. I am just giving out info, like everyone else here.

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Old 02-20-2014, 10:57 AM   #312
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I tend to be cynical when someone is selling a book, but my issue with this particular 5:2 suggestion is that if I eat carbs even once a week and get out of ketosis, it takes me about 4 days to get back in. So I'd basically be gaining and losing glycogen water weight continually--not body fat.

The basis of weight loss via low carb is mobilizing body fat by keeping insulin low. Induction involves getting into that fat-burning mode, but to go out of it weekly seems counter-productive, IMO. For example, I'm now maintaining, but I eat low carb for personal health and to help me manage my weight because I'm so carb sensitive. If I have even 60g of carbs, I will go out of ketosis and gain 5-6 lbs of water weight in the process. It then takes me 4-5 days of low-carb eating (<20g) to get back into ketosis and lose that water weight. With Cruse's plan, I'd then be going back out and re-gaining that water. Why would I do this?

The better approach (basis of JUDDD and other ADF plans) is cycling calories so that the lower days don't negatively affect metabolism.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:52 AM   #313
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No doubt this would be a YMMV thing. This whole board, and even this forum, is filled with what doesn't particularly work for one may work very well for another.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:59 AM   #314
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No doubt this would be a YMMV thing. This whole board, and even this forum, is filled with what doesn't particularly work for one may work very well for another.
Lots of great plans out there, trick is finding which one is for you
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:18 PM   #315
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Lots of great plans out there, trick is finding which one is for you
Yep, and I'm still searching after all these years!!!!
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:34 PM   #316
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I disagree that this is a YMMV issue because the science behind low-carb eating is basic and standard for everyone. Some of us may be able to tolerate more carbs than others, but going in and out of ketosis (as is inevitable with the plan described) would cause water weight gain for anyone because that's just the basis of low-carb eating.

By radically reducing carbs, the person depletes his/her glycogen stores and the water that binds with that glycogen is released. That's the 'big' initial loss that so many low carbers experience (and mistakenly think will happen weekly:-)

When we eat higher carbs, the body automatically replenishes its glycogen--and the water with which it binds returns as well--i.e., 4-5 lbs of 'gain.'

To go through this process weekly seems not only kind of silly but possibly damaging to the body as well.

HOWEVER, if this 'diet plan' doesn't include ketosis (i.e.,. the person stays above 60g carbs daily), then this process would not happen. That would be a YMMV because while 60g of carbs is reasonable for many people, it does not provide the benefits of ketosis that is the basis of most low-carb diets.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:01 PM   #317
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The problem is in that for a great many people, being constantly glycogen depleted is a sign to the body that you are starving and the thyroid will eventually become depressed in an attempt to down regulate the metabolism. That is the exact point of carb refeeds - it replenishes the glycogen and keeps the thyroid happy. Yeah, you can bounce around with water weight but you'll still lose fat as long as the calories are low and you will burn more calories because your metabolism is higher.

It's a YMMV thing because some people thrive on VLC (I suspect it's because they are "better" at gluconeogenesis) but a lot don't and need carbs to keep humming along
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:54 PM   #318
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Yep, and I'm still searching after all these years!!!!
I am with you!! I have been searching too. Sometimes it is just hard

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Old 02-21-2014, 01:07 AM   #319
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It's a YMMV thing because some people thrive on VLC (I suspect it's because they are "better" at gluconeogenesis) but a lot don't and need carbs to keep humming along
I did pretty well on around 60g carb per day, but never felt good at less than that. I suspected thereís something about gluconeogenesis that I donít quite get on with. An edgy adrenalin kind of feeling, combined with lack of any muscular stamina, even after several months. I donít need a lot of carbs, but I definitely feel better with some.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:11 AM   #320
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That issue of down regulation of the thyroid from low-carb eating is, IMO, one of those Internet myths that has no real science behind it (no actual studies).

I say this because I'm hypothyroid and have my hormone level checked every 4 months. If my thyroid was being 'slowed' by my low-carb eating (which I've been doing steadily for about 5 years), then I'd be needing increased Rx to compensate. That's never happened. My endo (an excellent doctor) applauds low-carb and says it doesn't affect the thyroid negatively.

One reason this belief surfaced is that there were studies that showed the thyroid hormone T3 lowered with low-carb eating. However, that's only because a major function of T3 is to regulate blood sugar, and the lower carb intake means that the body doesn't need to make as much T3. In other words, this is perfectly normal.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:51 AM   #321
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So much interesting stuff going on here!
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Old 02-21-2014, 10:17 AM   #322
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Quote:
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Frosty-
That issue of down regulation of the thyroid from low-carb eating is, IMO, one of those Internet myths that has no real science behind it (no actual studies).

I say this because I'm hypothyroid and have my hormone level checked every 4 months. If my thyroid was being 'slowed' by my low-carb eating (which I've been doing steadily for about 5 years), then I'd be needing increased Rx to compensate. That's never happened. My endo (an excellent doctor) applauds low-carb and says it doesn't affect the thyroid negatively.

One reason this belief surfaced is that there were studies that showed the thyroid hormone T3 lowered with low-carb eating. However, that's only because a major function of T3 is to regulate blood sugar, and the lower carb intake means that the body doesn't need to make as much T3. In other words, this is perfectly normal.
Thank you for explaining that. I knew I had read in detail about this but couldn't remember anything about it.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:33 PM   #323
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I did pretty well on around 60g carb per day, but never felt good at less than that. I suspected thereís something about gluconeogenesis that I donít quite get on with. An edgy adrenalin kind of feeling, combined with lack of any muscular stamina, even after several months. I donít need a lot of carbs, but I definitely feel better with some.
I've always claimed that this effect seems to kick in at < 50g and the pile of studies I linked to over on my thread showed that was the level that it started to kick in at.

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Frosty-
That issue of down regulation of the thyroid from low-carb eating is, IMO, one of those Internet myths that has no real science behind it (no actual studies).

I say this because I'm hypothyroid and have my hormone level checked every 4 months. If my thyroid was being 'slowed' by my low-carb eating (which I've been doing steadily for about 5 years), then I'd be needing increased Rx to compensate. That's never happened. My endo (an excellent doctor) applauds low-carb and says it doesn't affect the thyroid negatively.

One reason this belief surfaced is that there were studies that showed the thyroid hormone T3 lowered with low-carb eating. However, that's only because a major function of T3 is to regulate blood sugar, and the lower carb intake means that the body doesn't need to make as much T3. In other words, this is perfectly normal.
Could you point me to some studies that show low T3 and high rT3 (the typical state of people with Euthyroid Sicknes Syndrome, ESS) is normal and desirable? I've been looking this morning but haven't been able to find any. I have found a bunch of studies that show T2 diabetics typically are in that state but I haven't found anything that ever show shows that low T3 is a normal state.

By the way, it seems like you are talking about thyroid disease and I'm not. I have been talking about ESS, which has lowered body temp, lethargy and difficulty in losing weight as it's main symptoms, and is characterized by low T3 and high rT3. The study I linked to over on my thread showed this happened with an extended VLC diet as well as starvation and was reversed when carbs were reintroduced. It also showed during the overfeeding portion that people on a mixed diet had to eat more calories to maintain the added weight while the LC subjects maintained the extra weight at the same calorie level as before they gained weight. This was suggestive of a suppressed metabolic rate.

I don't believe that VLC induced ESS is an "internet myth". I have found enough studies that back it up. Also, if you get away from the LC echo chamber, you will find many blogs and posts by former LCers that report the same symptoms and how they alleviated them with the addition of carbs. Admittedly, that is anecdotal but the stories, as well as my own experience, combined with the studies I've read are pretty suggestive of it being true.

Anyway, this is a support forum and I don't want to get into an argument. I am happy that you have found a WOE that works for you and I'm happy that I got away from a WOE that didn't work for me. I would appreciate those studies though, since I try to not be dogmatic about anything anymore and am always on the lookout to increase my knowledge on this stuff.

Finally, when I was doing ZC, there were several people that thrived on it for many years. I am on Facebook still with a couple of them and they are doing great. At the same time, many, many people came to the forums, did ZC for several months and finally left because they felt tired and cold and not themselves anymore. It's clear to me that some people do well on VLC and some don't. Those that don't may do well adding the carb refeeds in (or abandon LC altogether) to bring their hormones back into line. That's the whole point that started with Dawn's post. If you thrive on VLC, don't do the refeeds. If you don't thrive on VLC, don't keep banging your head against a diet that doesn't work for you.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:44 PM   #324
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Quote:
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Vanilla-
I disagree that this is a YMMV issue because the science behind low-carb eating is basic and standard for everyone. Some of us may be able to tolerate more carbs than others, but going in and out of ketosis (as is inevitable with the plan described) would cause water weight gain for anyone because that's just the basis of low-carb eating.

By radically reducing carbs, the person depletes his/her glycogen stores and the water that binds with that glycogen is released. That's the 'big' initial loss that so many low carbers experience (and mistakenly think will happen weekly:-)

When we eat higher carbs, the body automatically replenishes its glycogen--and the water with which it binds returns as well--i.e., 4-5 lbs of 'gain.'

To go through this process weekly seems not only kind of silly but possibly damaging to the body as well.

HOWEVER, if this 'diet plan' doesn't include ketosis (i.e.,. the person stays above 60g carbs daily), then this process would not happen. That would be a YMMV because while 60g of carbs is reasonable for many people, it does not provide the benefits of ketosis that is the basis of most low-carb diets.
I only meant it's a YMMV thing because with all the eating plans on this one website alone, it's evident that what works for one - or even most - doesn't work for all. I don't question the science behind low carb eating at all.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:04 PM   #325
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I am in the middle of a (very long) paper and it sparked another though about this. It is talking about how T3 is produced by the thyroid but the majority of T3 comes from the conversion of T4 to T3 by tissues outside of the thyroid, with the liver and kidneys being major contributors.

In the studies that I have been reading, insulin resistant T2 diabetics with high blood sugar have low T3 and high rT3 (rT3 works to prevent the conversion of T4 to T3). At the same time, people eating a VLC diet and people that are fasting for an extended period of time (starvation) also end up with low T3 and high rT3. These people should have low blood sugar as opposed to the diabetics.

There is no denying that VLC diets and starvation bring on insulin resistance. Even LC gurus like Mike Eades and Peter on the Hyperlipid blog admit this. It's a survival mechanism brought on low glucose intake (the body can run mostly on ketones but there are still some tissues that require glucose so the IR is present to save any glucose it can for those tissues).

It appears to me that maybe it's the IR that is causing the problem. After all, VLC mimics starvation, so it makes sense that the body would go into survival mode eventually, probably some a lot quicker than others. In starvation, eventually the thyroid starts to suppress the metabolism in an attempt to lower energy use. Body temperature is reduced and energy levels go down. It is unclear to me right now if the low T3 is result of this slow down or the trigger.

Anyway, this follows along with my experience but I'm mostly thinking "out loud" right now. If it's true, though, it seems that becoming more insulin sensitive is the key here.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:45 PM   #326
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I have just switched over to a Bert Herring fast 5 eating window 19/5, for me 2.pm - 7.00pm. Dr J in his updated book suggests throwing in some weeks of an eating window to take advantage of circadian rhythms in between JUDDD to stir things along. I must say I am enjoying it, no weight loss or if so it's very slow, but as a lifetime maintenance I wouldn't mind mixing this with a few JUDDD days. As someone who gets hungry as soon as they eat like myself, waiting until 2.00 pm seems to dull my appetite once I start eating, and knowing I can do it again the next day seems to really help me along. For me I need strict rules, left to my own I flounder and this way I know I can't eat after 7.00pm and before 2.00pm takes the stress out of food. I will plug along with this for a few weeks and see how it pans out.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:21 PM   #327
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Oops got side-tracked, actually the real reason I popped in here was to say I was looking at Krista's f/b and am astounded at the comments of both genders losing 16lbs in 4 weeks, blah blah. I just know from being on this program myself and the many comments here that this is not always a fast weight loss, but over there seems to be Mary Poppins land. Why why..?
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:39 PM   #328
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I certainly wonder the same thing mojo. What are they doing that I'm not?
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:44 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
I certainly wonder the same thing mojo. What are they doing that I'm not?
I think it may depend on if they were dieting or not before. I lost quite a bit at first and then it turned really slow.
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Old 02-22-2014, 07:49 AM   #330
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That's probably true, Frosty. I was dieting before I came to JUDDD but still lost about 3 lbs a week the first two weeks.

I don't want to jinx anything, but I am now down 5 lbs from a week ago today. I think one reason why is because on my last UD (Thurs), I fasted from coffee until 7 pm (dinner). I didn't do it on purpose, but slept late and then had too much to do before a dinner engagement to eat. I was hungry (a little), but didn't want to ruin my appetite at nearly 3 pm when I got out of my stylist's. Anyway, thank goodness things are going down again!
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