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Old 12-31-2013, 01:46 PM   #1
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The Alternate Day Diet Revised!

I pre-ordered Dr. Johnson's new book on Kindle, and couldn't wait to start reading it this morning! (Fortunately I'm on vacation so I could). I read most parts and skimmed a few to go back and read more closely later.

It's been over a year since I read the first one, and that was a library borrow, so I can't compare directly, but here's some interesting things I noticed, comparing Varady with Johnson and Johnson with my recollection of his first book:

- The science wars: the elephant in the room for me while reading both Johnson and Varady's books is that neither of them mention each other , even as references, which seems odd as Dr. Johnson does make a point about patenting the 100/20 plan in 2003 and Varady emphasizes that she has done the most human studies. Both subtly criticize 5:2 by implying or stating that it probably doesn't work as well, but might have some benefits ... without mentioning Mosely.

- Much less emphasis on 'eat whatever you want on up days'! He still says it, and makes the very interesting study-backed point that lower weight is a much more important factor for health than what you eat, but he definitely advocates healthy eating has a large section on nutrition with pretty much the standard nutritional advice. He is more against saturated fat than Varady, who says not to fear fat, but she is also the one now emphasizing "eat whatever you want!." He's still not an Atkins fan.

- NO MENTION OF AN UP DAY CALORIE NUMBER. Wow. He does mention you may have to "watch calories" after the first three months, but he seems to advocate an awareness of food intake via journaling and healthy eating/eating to hunger and emphasizes the importance of both not feeling deprived and not going crazy on up days. He also stresses that there is not a required up day number and you do not have to consume all the up day calories on the calculator... in fact, he says "the sole purpose of using the calculator is to estimate the number of calories to eat on your down days ...there is no specific calorie requirement for the up day" (emphasis Dr. Johnson's).

- Down day flexibility: He still says (vs. Varady) that a 0% down day would result in the greatest impact on oxidative stress and inflammation, but emphasizes that few can do that and being able to stick with it is the most important thing. He says he himself alternates 50% down days with 25-35% down days, even though he "would always like to lose a few more pounds."

-Diet fatigue plan: circadian rhythm eating window! He suggests if you get tired of doing the same thing (no matter how awesome ) to eat in an 8 hour window for awhile as a break.

Most definitely new stuff here. The whole book to me feels more well done and credible than the first one, and has more content than Varady's, but almost more than is needed IMO. He includes lots of studies from other researchers (except Varady!), and there's a huge section on the health benefits of ADF.

I have more to say, but I'll leave it for follow-up comments so this doesn't get too long. Lots to think about!

Last edited by calichris; 12-31-2013 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:51 PM   #2
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Thank you for the post. I went out to buy it this morning only to discover that today is the last day my local B&N is open.....so no new books. Now I will really have to rely on A!

I'll start with the Kindle version....
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:59 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Seabreezes View Post
Thank you for the post. I went out to buy it this morning only to discover that today is the last day my local B&N is open.....so no new books. Now I will really have to rely on A!

I'll start with the Kindle version....
Thanks Chris. Great information. I like the eating window for a break.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:07 PM   #4
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Thank you for the 1st installment of the summaryChris! Since I had no plans of buying the book, I'll just wait for your summations! as I know you would only highlight the important bits!
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:14 PM   #5
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Thanks, Chris. I like the 8hr window for fatigued times.
I for one can provide evidence that an UD calorie limit is a good idea. I could gain doing alternate day fasting without the limit.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
I pre-ordered Dr. Johnson's new book on Kindle, and couldn't wait to start reading it this morning! (Fortunately I'm on vacation so I could). I read most parts and skimmed a few to go back and read more closely later.

It's been over a year since I read the first one, and that was a library borrow, so I can't compare directly, but here's some interesting things I noticed, comparing Varady with Johnson and Johnson with my recollection of his first book:

- The science wars: the elephant in the room for me while reading both Johnson and Varady's books is that neither of them mention each other , even as references, which seems odd as Dr. Johnson does make a point about patenting the 100/20 plan in 2003 and Varady emphasizes that she has done the most human studies. Both subtly criticize 5:2 by implying or stating that it probably doesn't work as well, but might have some benefits ... without mentioning Mosely.

- Much less emphasis on 'eat whatever you want on up days'! He still says it, and makes the very interesting study-backed point that lower weight is a much more important factor for health than what you eat, but he definitely advocates healthy eating has a large section on nutrition with pretty much the standard nutritional advice. He is more against saturated fat than Varady, who says not to fear fat, but she is also the one now emphasizing "eat whatever you want!." He's still not an Atkins fan.

- NO MENTION OF AN UP DAY CALORIE NUMBER. Wow. He does mention you may have to "watch calories" after the first three months, but he seems to advocate an awareness of food intake via journaling and healthy eating/eating to hunger and emphasizes the importance of both not feeling deprived and not going crazy on up days. He also stresses that there is not a required up day number and you do not have to consume all the up day calories on the calculator... in fact, he says "the sole purpose of using the calculator is to estimate the number of calories to eat on your down days ...there is no specific calorie requirement for the up day" (emphasis Dr. Johnson's).
- Down day flexibility: He still says (vs. Varady) that a 0% down day would result in the greatest impact on oxidative stress and inflammation, but emphasizes that few can do that and being able to stick with it is the most important thing. He says he himself alternates 50% down days with 25-35% down days, even though he "would always like to lose a few more pounds."

-Diet fatigue plan: circadian rhythm eating window! He suggests if you get tired of doing the same thing (no matter how awesome ) to eat in an 8 hour window for awhile as a break.

Most definitely new stuff here. The whole book to me feels more well done and credible than the first one, and has more content than Varady's, but almost more than is needed IMO. He includes lots of studies from other researchers (except Varady!), and there's a huge section on the health benefits of ADF.

I have more to say, but I'll leave it for follow-up comments so this doesn't get too long. Lots to think about!
There was discussion about the bolded section in the last year or two here on this board. I can't for the life of me remember who it was that was in contact with Dr. Johnson and said exactly what I've highlighted (Leo41, maybe?). Anyway, I agree with that part, in theory, but in practice, at least for me, I have to make sure to eat up to my UD numbers or I stall, and to not go too far over them too often, or I gain.

ETA: NickiCaps addressed it here: Dr. J responded to my questions! , but I'm certain Leo41 was in contact with him as well, since she has a genetically slow metabolism and other mitigating factors.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
Thanks, Chris. I like the 8hr window for fatigued times.
I for one can provide evidence that an UD calorie limit is a good idea. I could gain doing alternate day fasting without the limit.
Sadly, I agree about the limit, as well as going too low- in my case neither is a good plan for long range success. I can easily eat 1,800 some UDs and 1,100 on others. In maintenance this seems to be OK, but I'm not sure how that would have worked during WLM especially if the 1,800 or 1,100 calorie UDs were strung together for long periods of time.

I ordered the hard copy and it says it will be delivered tonight- we will see.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:36 PM   #8
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Kristin - Yes, a lot of us here would say that!

And yet ... I am mulling this over and may alter my plan based on what I have read. Not totally decided yet, though.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:54 PM   #9
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I remember Leo41 reporting that she'd been in contact with Dr Johnson (and one of the Eades?) and that Johnson had said it wasn't necessary to eat to the UD limit as suggested.

Everybody is individual but...I strongly agree with the experience on this board that it's important to keep your kcal levels up to preserve your options if you need to reduce later and if you don't have contraindications such as very particular metabolic complications. JUDDD and I could not gel the first time around because I came into it from a low calorie WOE and I just didn't have room for manoeuvre.

There's a lot of interesting research work about the different metabolism of people who've lost substantial amounts of weight (and there seem to be differences between people who've been lifelong obese and those who've only carried the excess for a relatively short period of their adulthood). It would seem that previously long-term overweight/obese people literally burn energy differently and partition it differently. It's because of this that I think the work of Dr Layne Norton and others is interesting when it covers protein metabolism and reverse dieting.

Dr Johnson has so many adherents on this board, it feels like a missed opportunity that he didn't engage with some of the people who've been following his programme for some time. I'm thinking of The Masters whom Anne M. Fletcher turned to for their experiences in her, Thin for Life book. The Masters hadn't all followed a programme such as the one that she advocated but she turned to The Masters for reports on what they had done to succeed long-term in weight maintenance - and their insights are amongst the most useful parts of that book.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:05 PM   #10
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I remember Leo41 reporting that she'd been in contact with Dr Johnson (and one of the Eades?) and that Johnson had said it wasn't necessary to eat to the UD limit as suggested.

Everybody is individual but...I strongly agree with the experience on this board that it's important to keep your kcal levels up to preserve your options if you need to reduce later and if you don't have contraindications such as very particular metabolic complications. JUDDD and I could not gel the first time around because I came into it from a low calorie WOE and I just didn't have room for manoeuvre.

There's a lot of interesting research work about the different metabolism of people who've lost substantial amounts of weight (and there seem to be differences between people who've been lifelong obese and those who've only carried the excess for a relatively short period of their adulthood). It would seem that previously long-term overweight/obese people literally burn energy differently and partition it differently. It's because of this that I think the work of Dr Layne Norton and others is interesting when it covers protein metabolism and reverse dieting.

Dr Johnson has so many adherents on this board, it feels like a missed opportunity that he didn't engage with some of the people who've been following his programme for some time. I'm thinking of The Masters whom Anne M. Fletcher turned to for their experiences in her, Thin for Life book. The Masters hadn't all followed a programme such as the one that she advocated but she turned to The Masters for reports on what they had done to succeed long-term in weight maintenance - and their insights are amongst the most useful parts of that book.
There was a request a year or so ago from someone purporting to be Dr. J, looking for experiences for a revised edition of his book. The post he made (if it was indeed Dr. J) was removed because he was soliciting personal information from members of this board. I understand it went against the TOS for this site, but I wish he would have posted a way for people who wanted to share their stories to get in contact with him. The e-mail link on his website was not working at that time. (Yes, I tried to contact him).
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:37 PM   #11
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My book is here... probably won't get to start till tomorrow.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:48 PM   #12
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Thank you for the info. I had thought about buying the book for my kindle but i have read so so many books, probably too many. I know how to eat and what to eat and just have to keep with the rotations.

I for one, do also agree that there should be an upper limit. In the beginning of almost every eating plan to lose weight you will lose weight if you stick to that plan if you have a lot of weight to lose. But there comes a point when you have to start watching what you eat, at least for most people. I can gain weight eating JUDDD, even sticking to rotations and sticking to calorie limits if i eat too many carbs i will gain. Sucks, but its the way things are.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:09 PM   #13
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Thanks, Chris! I will get the book on my Kindle and looking forward to it.
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:13 PM   #14
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We're mentioned! In the FAQ section, Johnson says "for more information on carbs and this diet, check out lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/juddd"

Of course not all of us are low carb, but that's ok.

Another interesting fact is Dr. Johnson also says even a 75% restriction is enough to turn on a little bit of SIRTs, but not as efficiently as lower percentages.
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:11 AM   #15
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I was thinking how helpful it would be to read someone people's tag lines in a book - like Nancy's
JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD doesn't care what you eat, your body probably does. (Or words to that effect.)
And Kissa's
Rotate. Relax. Reduce. Rejoice and
It's not what you eat between Christmas and New Year that counts but what you eat between New Year and Christmas.

I think Dawn's DD staple of Wendy's small chill deserves its own special commendation.

Lots of things like that So many useful tips on this board and so much guidance from seasoned people who've done it.

And I find the range of different WOE here, within the JUDDD schedule, is very reminiscent of the Thin for Life Masters, who were notable for crafting their own WOE that didn't necessarily follow a readily-indentifiable WOE or programme (tho', being of its time, the book hugely solidly emphasises low-fat, as does Refuse to Regain).

I wonder if some of the usual maintenance rules are heavily tweaked for people who continue to follow a fasting schedule, whether 5:2 or EOD or some mix? Does Dr Johnson discuss whether conventional wisdom about maintenance may be different for fasting?

I think JUDDD has continuing vigilance about kcals built in, so regain flash points would be portion creep, rather than a desire for greater variety of foods, unless we heavily restricted those within the JUDDD schedule. It will be interesting to see how this plays out for all of us.

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Old 01-01-2014, 05:36 AM   #16
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Off to buy both books - couldn't remember the name of the other author - knew I'd find it here! Shockingly I have arrived at Jan 1st, lighter than I started the Christmas festivities!
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:46 AM   #17
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Way to go, Vicky!
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:55 AM   #18
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Varady'sbook isn't available in the uk till 9 Jan - let's see if I bother - downloaded Dr J's
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:56 AM   #19
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Christina, bless you for taking the time to share so much valuable information. I haven't gotten around to ordering any of the books yet. But I will, and I will devour them.

In the meantime, add me to the list of too many high UDs cause weight gain and NSV loss, too many low UDs cause weight-loss stall and NSV loss.

My UD range is quite expansive. And individual blow-outs are NP as long as they do not happen in a looooong string. Hence, opulent vaycays that begin and end at the same weight (golly, I love JUDDD).
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:59 AM   #20
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:56 AM   #21
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Yes, I'm the one who contacted Dr. J about the UD number when I started JUDDD. My concern was that I'd opted for JUDDD as a way to control my need to severely restrict calories (as I've explained in that other thread about why we chose this plan), and while I had no problem with the calculator DD number for me at 250 lbs (430 cal), I knew I could not manage to lose unless I kept my UD number at 1400 or lower. The calculator number was much higher.

When I asked Dr. J about this via e-mail (at that time, he was easy to contact via his website), he told me that in many ways the UD number was a 'fiction,' based on what 'maintenance' should be for a person of that height and weight. He told me that since I already knew my calorie limit for UDs, it was fine to go with that. I lost steadily and slowly (given met metabolic problems that pound a week was good!) to my current 145.

It's interesting to me that he's dropped the UD number in this book because from his e-mail at the time, I got the impression that he regretted giving specific UD numbers.

I had contacted Dr. Eades about the DDs because I was concerned about nutrition (and I'd been happy with his ProteinPower guidelines). He advised me to stick to high quality protein--and that's what I've done for every DD since then--mainly fish and/or egg whites. This not only satisfies me but keeps me close to my minimum protein requirements, which to me is important to lose fat rather than lean body mass (muscle).
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:06 AM   #22
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I ordered the book yesterday. I loved JUDDD before but somehow fell away from it and dieting altogether. The holidays just about did me in...feeling bloated and really lethargic. So even though today is a holiday I'm making it a DD. i'm not calling it a New Year's resolution because those never stick for me. I'll just say I'm working on becoming a better, healthier me.
Hope you all have a wonderful day!
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:33 AM   #23
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I just read page 76-77 where he talks about the exercise level on the calculator. Johnson says "Just as most of us underestimate how much we eat, we also tend to overestimate our level of activity. In fact, if you are overweight, you're probably doing both right now." He says later "It's not unusual to hear a woman who is 5'5" and weighs 200 pounds say that she does vigorous aerobic activity 60-90 minutes six days a week and hardly eats anything. While this is probably not impossible it seems unlikely."

He say "So to help counteract this natural tendency, I recommend that you calculate your RMR using the activity level that is one below the level you think applies to you."
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:34 AM   #24
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I just read page 76-77 where he talks about the exercise level on the calculator. Johnson says "Just as most of us underestimate how much we eat, we also tend to overestimate our level of activity. In fact, if you are overweight, you're probably doing both right now." He says later "It's not unusual to hear a woman who is 5'5" and weighs 200 pounds say that she does vigorous aerobic activity 60-90 minutes six days a week and hardly eats anything. While this is probably not impossible it seems unlikely."

He say "So to help counteract this natural tendency, I recommend that you calculate your RMR using the activity level that is one below the level you think applies to you."
But there isn't one BELOW sedentary!
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:42 AM   #25
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But there isn't one BELOW sedentary!
(coma?)
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:49 AM   #26
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Kristin - Yes, a lot of us here would say that!

And yet ... I am mulling this over and may alter my plan based on what I have read. Not totally decided yet, though.
Are you considering not counting UD's? I'm not sure exactly what you meant, but based on Kristin's reply, I would assume that's it. I would say that I have gone over more often than I've stayed within guidelines or below them...it worked at first, but doesn't work now.
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:55 AM   #27
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WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
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I count my UDs. I wonder if not counting would work if you were following a WOE with other restrictions, such as no desserts (other than something like glucomannan pudding) or treat items (other than glucomannan smoothies). Or restricted low carb, low fat?
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:57 AM   #28
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WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
Start Date: 11 Dec. 2011 Restart 1 Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeirasMom View Post
But there isn't one BELOW sedentary!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
(coma?)


Somewhere between sedentary and coma, is there room for 'sentient and functioning'?
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:57 AM   #29
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WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
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I count my UDs. I wonder if not counting would work if you were following a WOE with other restrictions, such as no desserts (other than something like glucomannan pudding) or treat items (other than glucomannan smoothies). Or restricted low carb, or low fat?
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:58 AM   #30
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Great summary, interesting discussion. I want to make my kick start as do-ble as possible. I notice I do an 8hr window naturally... Skip early breakfast, start around noon, finish by around 8pm.

Avoiding night snacking is hard for me, but I am most successful when I do.
This is both UD and dd.

Thanks for this Chris!
S.
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