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Old 01-01-2014, 10:52 AM   #31
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Chris!

What is the 100/20 plan you mentioned?
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Old 01-01-2014, 11:04 AM   #32
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That's just his basic Up Day/20% DD rotations. (Although in the book he makes a point of saying that everyone should choose the lowest DD percentage that is sustainable for them, whether it is 20 or below or 25-35 ... or even rotating percentages as he himself does, going up to 50% on some days).

p.s. The recipes in Varady's book are WAY better (IMHO) than in Johnson's. I'm not tempted to try a single one of Johnson's recipes, but I've already tried some of Varady's () and will try more. Maybe it's because her field is nutrition.

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Old 01-01-2014, 01:02 PM   #33
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Thanks Christina for starting this thread and posting your thoughts on the books! I wasn't sure if I should purchase or not but I am enjoying the discussion on comparing them so much that I have gone ahead and ordered.
Interesting about the move away from set UD calories. I have always found the guidelines helpful/necessary as I love to eat and have a tendency to consistently over consume (even with the guidelines!). I am definitely one who needs to stick close to the UD calories for times when I am focused on weight loss. I do hope there are others who can eat the right amount naturally, maybe one day I can do this!
It is great how everyone here shares what has worked for them but is still so open minded in looking at new information and giving things a try! You are all such a fantastic support group. the JUDDD buds!
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by gotsomeold View Post
And individual blow-outs are NP as long as they do not happen in a looooong string.
I like this. It's a pithy summary of Anne M Fletcher's Thin for Life Key #5: Nip It In The Bud: Break The Relapse Cycle.

Among various aspects and strategies that she discusses, she emphasises that successful maintainers:

Don’t Let A Lapse Become A Relapse. She distinguishes lapses and relapses: ‘Lapses are single episodes of slipping, acting or eating in an unplanned manner that is not ideal for continued weight control’ (or, Nancy's NP ). However, relapses are accumulated lapses. Fletcher writes that you’re unlikely to gain much, if any weight with a single lapse; only a relapse can cause significant regain.

She includes insights from several weight maintenance Masters who state that everyone will lapse from time to time and it shouldn't be anyone's fantasy/expectation that they can have a lifelong record of no lapses. The consistent theme is that it's how you deal with the aftermath of a lapse that determines whether it remains an isolated episode or develops into a wide-ranging, full-blown relapse.

Again, as Nancy, Carly, Cindy and other JUDDD maintainers frequently advise, you look to see if there's something you can learn from a lapse and then put it firmly behind you to move forward.

Of course, because JUDDD is ADF, and you have a free choice of the food that you eat, I wonder if it's harder to identify some lapses of food choices unless they happen on a DD? But, thinking about it, that can't be true, or we wouldn't have people reporting that they had an UUAD?
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:14 PM   #35
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Happy New Year Everyone!

I have been on the site off and on for quite awhile. Last year I lost ten lbs. and have kept it off. JUDD was inspirational for me but at times I just ate less and that helped. Now I am jumping back in at 600 DD and 1400 UD. Going under 600 is hard for me and actually going up to 1400 is even difficult. I need to average 800-1000 a day to lose. Being older (74) I know that even exercising 3xweek doesn't help burn cals. that much. Anyway, I'm here. This is a great bunch of people and even if I were eating another way I still would at least lurk.
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:02 PM   #36
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Happy New Year Everyone!

I have been on the site off and on for quite awhile. Last year I lost ten lbs. and have kept it off. JUDD was inspirational for me but at times I just ate less and that helped. Now I am jumping back in at 600 DD and 1400 UD. Going under 600 is hard for me and actually going up to 1400 is even difficult. I need to average 800-1000 a day to lose. Being older (74) I know that even exercising 3xweek doesn't help burn cals. that much. Anyway, I'm here. This is a great bunch of people and even if I were eating another way I still would at least lurk.
nice to "see" you!
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:26 PM   #37
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@Slowsure - I was so impressed with the Refuse to Regain blog I ended up purchasing the kindle version, worth every cent. I also like Stephen Gullo's Thin Commandments; both authors teach tough love but I'm probably enjoying Barbara's moreso. My new motto as per Barbara is "defend and protect my weight loss and body". Whether one is trying to lose, maintain or control UD's there are some fantastic tips/strategies in both books. The start of a new year is a good time for me to reassess; the old eating habits must go and a new normal established. Losing and maintaining are hard and I need the tough love every now and again. Thanks again Slowsure; very grateful.
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:30 PM   #38
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SuzeQ! Great news about keeping the 10 pounds off for so long! Welcome back.
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:39 PM   #39
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SlowSure, I have one I feel strongly about that I bet the Masters mention...

I never, ever, ever cheated on my calories.

I do encounter eating opportunities not in keeping with the calories I planned to eat. I think about it - how it would taste, how I would feel physically after eating it, how eating it would impact the rest of my day. Then I make an adult decision to eat or not to eat, to taste or gobble it all. But I do not 'cheat'.

I suspect the psychology of 'cheating' is very dangerous and can lead to weight loss slowdown or failure.

Where my weight and health are concerned, the only person I can cheat is myself. I chose to be honest with myself...and occasionally chocolate-covered.
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I did not "lose" weight. I evicted it. It is gone and it ain't coming back!

JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:36 PM   #40
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Thanks Calicris for the great summary!

-Diet fatigue plan: circadian rhythm eating window! He suggests if you get tired of doing the same thing (no matter how awesome ) to eat in an 8 hour window for awhile as a break.

That's actually the Leangains technique (16/8)!! Interesting.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:26 AM   #41
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thank you so much for the summation! i have a hard time reading those books as i get bogged down in the studies, rhetoric, etc. i love cliff notes

i currently am not counting UD's, but my DD's are WAY below the calculator. also, i am not three months in yet, so that may have something to do with it. ALSO, even tho i am not counting, i am definitely not eating as much on my UD's as i used to eat on a daily basis. this may be a factor as well. i will keep my eye on the scale and see if, as i hit 3 months and longer, i come to a stand still or start gaining by not counting on UD's.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:12 AM   #42
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Wonderful thread! Thanks again, Chris! It's great to read "cliff notes" but also mixed in with personal experience from the JB team. What a great group of people! I'm so hopeful for 2014. I feel like this is a way of life to relax into.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:17 AM   #43
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Thanks for this post, Christina. I'm still waiting for both the Varady and the Johnson books from my library, and I'm hoping they'll be in soon so I can get started. Reading books like these always help me with motivation too, which I need at full throttle getting re-started again!

I know that if I didn't count my UD calories, I'd be in big trouble. I can put away an amazing amount of calories with no problem, especially since I naturally enjoy LC staples like meat, eggs, cheese, butter, PB.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:07 PM   #44
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Not yet available on UK Kindle. May cave and buy real books...
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:38 PM   #45
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I bought the Varady book, b/c I was curious (not too bad on Kindle, around $11) and I also bought a couple of $3 books on recipes-- one for low cal slow cooker, and another for under 500 cal recipes.

I sort of want to smack myself b/c I feel I know better and can manage recipes myself, but the low price attracted me and it's nice to get some outside inspiration now and then.

Then I browsed my food apps for high cal, foodie recipes too

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Old 01-02-2014, 12:50 PM   #46
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I found the only copy that came in around my house. Had to go to 3 stores before I got Dr. Johnson's book. Acordding to the stores only 1 came in in this area? I am going to start reading tonight. I saw Varady's book at all 3 stores.
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:30 PM   #47
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I pre-orderd and haven't received my book yet. Maybe tomorrow.
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Old 01-02-2014, 05:23 PM   #48
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I'm about half way through Dr. J's book on my Kindle. Finding it very motivational.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:21 AM   #49
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Quote:
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The recipes in Varady's book are WAY better (IMHO) than in Johnson's....I've already tried some of Varady's () and will try more.
Now that you've made more of the recipes, still impressed? Worth purchasing the book for them?

Quote:
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@Slowsure - I was so impressed with the Refuse to Regain blog I ended up purchasing the kindle version, worth every cent....My new motto as per Barbara is "defend and protect my weight loss and body". Whether one is trying to lose, maintain or control UD's there are some fantastic tips/strategies in both books.... Thanks again Slowsure; very grateful.
Belatedly, you're more than welcome, the Berkeley is so helpful, isn't it. I'll look out for the Gullo.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:09 AM   #50
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SlowSure, I have one I feel strongly about that I bet the Masters mention...

I never, ever, ever cheated on my calories. ...
I suspect the psychology of 'cheating' is very dangerous and can lead to weight loss slowdown or failure.

Where my weight and health are concerned, the only person I can cheat is myself. I chose to be honest with myself...and occasionally chocolate-covered.
Spot on. However, I don't want to thread jack more than I have already so I popped my response in the Dr Berkeley Refuse to Regain thread (for reasons that made sense at the time but don't really stand up).
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:58 PM   #51
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Yes and I do apologise I posted in wrong thread above - I meant to post in the Refuse to Regain thread. I am still awaiting Dr J's book but got Krista's yesterday. It's a quick read however what strikes me is it is happy, happy Mary Poppins land - her subjects lose weight, have continued appetite suppression on feast days and don't overeat, and weight loss is maintained. Does being part of a study make one more compliant?
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:29 AM   #52
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Cindy and Christina are having an interesting chat in the Jan Chat thread and I wanted to comment but, of course, it turned into an essay, so I've put my response in this thread.

Context:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kissa View Post
I like to be reminded that JUDDD is not only about losing weight, but is good for us in so very many ways. But, we need those Sirtuins flowing and we can't ask them to hang around forever, as I found after my vacations and family visits in the Autumn.

Once I did some strict rotations (strangely, about the 2 weeks that Dr J says we need) the Sirts started flowing again, and they have held me in good stead for the past holiday month. When I say good rotations I don't mean especially low DDs necessarily. But I do mean counted UDs, as often as possible. Cos, no matter what anyone says about it being unimportant to count them, if we had 'normal' appetites why would we be here in the first place?
CaliChris:
Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
Cindy - I definitely always listen with interest to what you have to say and value your successful experience and thoughts. And I agree that sometimes we just need to tighten up, period.

I'm just wondering about the up day vs. down day thing. It's the down days that activate the SIRTs, right? Dr. Johnson said in the new book that "if you stop losing weight, 98% of the time it is because you are taking in too many calories on the down days." Interesting, isn't it? I would have thought the up days. Maybe Dr. Johnson isn't even right about that ... we don't have to agree with him, but having just read Varady's and Johnson's books, I'm open to the possibility.

You have a great point that most of us woudn't need to lose weight in the first place if we had eaten just our "normal" maintenance calories, but we also didn't gain our weight while eating 500 calories on alternate days, either. In theory, if you need 2000 calories to maintain your weight (just as an easy figure and close to what many of us have), and you ate a strict 500 calories every other day, you'd have to eat 3,500 calories every up day to maintain. I could do that on a UUAD, but I don't think I'd do it every up day even if I didn't count. Krista Varady says in her studies, people were not doing that ... not even close. They were only eating 110% of their UD calories, or for our hypothetical 2000 calorie maintenance person, 2200.

So is it our up days or our down days that can be the issue? Or both?

I was convinced to experiment. It may not work, and if it doesn't I can correct course, but if it does I'll be very happy. I'm experimenting now with only counting one up day a week with strict 500 calorie down days... so I'll be a test case to see if it works for me.
I've mentioned elsewhere (upthread?) that I'm not entirely happy with Dr Varady's published work and think that had several not been in pay-to-publish journals a decent set of referees would have insisted on some clarification on some useful points.

I know that she was working with small groups but I'm taken aback that so few of them reported the side-effects that are commonplace around here (the physiologic cold, constipation etc.) and that so many of the participants were good at complying. This last compliance point is a bug bear of trials and why findings there don't always translate into the Real World. (I'll mention this in a follow-up comment.)

I could have done with knowing how many of the participants were serial dieters or had a history of substantial weight loss followed by substantial regain.

It was good that participants in some trials had DXA scans to assess their body fat, In a perfect world, I would have liked the horribly expensive double-labelled water and other metabolic assessments to get a baseline of their metabolisms and what happened to them during the studies. Something feels off to me about the studies and I dislike the feeling although I know I'm justified in being annoyed because the studies aren't clear and, for me, this compromises some of the applicability of the guidelines and assumptions.

I know that I regularly refer to Dr Layne Norton, but his video logs on reverse dieting and metabolic adaptation/damage and what those do to kcal intake and maintenance levels are thoughtful, well-referenced, and sound.

Unless we're poor counters around here, with some exceptions such as TheRedHead, few JUDDD WLM/maintainers eat anything like a notional maintenance level of kcals for their height and age. I'm eating a fair amount more than I was a few months ago but I've done that by reverse dieting. I deliberately add in a few kcals, 5g carbs or 3g of fat to my daily allowance and then monitor for a week to see if there's an increase in weight. If not, then I push the boundary and raise my intake again and re-assess.

I think that ADF or variations on IF have great potential to help people maintain their weight without lifelong hypervigilance wrt the kcal count of every mouthful. Regular fasting, if practised appropriately, may well have a built-in regulation mechanism if it doesn't overall induce metabolic adaptation to chronically low kcal intakes. Which is why I'm reverse dieting as I was concerned at how tiny my intake of food was (causing me horrible gut problems) and how low my kcal intake was and the implications of that for ageing and needing to reduce still further.

I think we all need to experiment to make JUDDD a WOE that is seamlessly integrated into our lives because, I suspect, that when it is, it may make the challenges of maintaining interesting rather than burdensome.

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Old 01-08-2014, 06:14 AM   #53
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That's a well thought out and comprehensive response SS. I keep playing with my numbers to see what I can get away with, and I am never able to maintain on TDEE as I should for my height, weight, age, gender, and activity level. I gain, every single time I try. However, with fasting in one form or another, I can get much closer to my TDEE with averaging over a week or so. My most recent experiment has put me at 2000/500-700 but 5:2 rather than EOD. I have not been compliant with that, going significantly over recently on my UDs, and I'm in a gain cycle. Now I'm trying to decide if I should keep going as I am, reign in my UDs a bit, or go back to EOD.
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Old 01-08-2014, 06:22 AM   #54
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Yes and I do apologise I posted in wrong thread above - I meant to post in the Refuse to Regain thread. I am still awaiting Dr J's book but got Krista's yesterday. It's a quick read however what strikes me is it is happy, happy Mary Poppins land - her subjects lose weight, have continued appetite suppression on feast days and don't overeat, and weight loss is maintained. Does being part of a study make one more compliant?
I notice also that she has claims on FB that you can lose from 10-30 lbs in 8 weeks. I think that is a bit inflated.
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Old 01-08-2014, 07:47 AM   #55
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Finally received my book but it looks like not a lot of new information as I also have the old book. Skimmed the whole thing last night. Kind of disappointed in fact BUT I am also one that UD's are the key. UUAD's are what is keeping me from losing right now. My DD's are fine and totally under control. My UD yesterday was better and I will get there, it is just taking me more time than I thought it would to get myself back under control from the Holiday gluttony. Plus I did better on UD's when I was at work and since I only work a couple of days a week now that is also a new wrinkle in my plan. BUT EOD it is and I will chip away at this extra 10 pounds until it is gone.

I did notice that although Dr. J is or was aware of other people doing similar research that they did not seem to do much collaboration. Kind of a bunch of islands in the research field but then I guess that is the way it is. Each one looking for their own results they can publish.

Those mice and old folks in the home have nothing on me. LOL
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:33 AM   #56
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Old 01-08-2014, 05:45 PM   #57
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Now that you've made more of the recipes, still impressed? Worth purchasing the book for them?
I've only tried 4 recipes so far, and I thought all were pretty good, but not amazing, and I'd like to tweak a couple I've tried. I don't think the recipes alone are probably worth buying the book for, but I needed some new and different ideas, and I appreciate that are for 1 person, precounted, easy but homemade (with some packaged helps) and things I generally like.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:47 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojocat View Post
Does being part of a study make one more compliant?
Short answer, yes, it does with some caveats. (See Hawthorne Effect, Observer Effect etc..)

Gary Taubes wrote one of the best explanations of compliance as part of an NYT item. The best way to read it is to go to
Gary Taubes website
find the article
Science, Pseudoscience, Nutritional Epidemiology, and Meat
and scroll down (or do a 'find' on)
Bias of Compliance
Read that box and the remainder of the article.

Basically, yes, people are more likely to comply when they're monitored. People are more likely to change behaviour just by being observed. However, there is a group of people who will comply and it is the fact that they are compliers that seems to indicate that they derive health benefits in excess of other participants - even when they're not in the active arm - purely because they're likely to be the ones who implement health advice in their lifestyle.
Quote:
This phenomenon is a particularly compelling explanation for why the Nurses’ Health Study and other cohort studies saw a benefit of H.R.T. [hormone replacement therapy, one subject of the article] in current users of the drugs, but not necessarily in past users. By distinguishing among women who never used H.R.T., those who used it but then stopped and current users (who were the only ones for which a consistent benefit appeared), these observational studies may have inadvertently focused their attention specifically on, as Jerry Avorn says, the “Girl Scouts in the group, the compliant ongoing users, who are probably doing a lot of other preventive things as well.”
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:34 PM   #59
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Well I am back to get started again with a 17 pound gain over the past 8 months. I found this Varaday information interesting, along with visiting her on facebook. I asked a question, and expected an answer. Her reply sealed me on not wasting the money on her book, and starting with JUDDD. I will post here what I asked the other day on FB, and her reply yesterday.

I did the JUDDD diet that sounds really similar to this. Johnson UpDay Down Day diet. My question is how does the 500 calorie lunch differ from the 500 calorie day of JUDDD?

I am wanting to get started and your way looks like it would be harder just to eat a lunch of 500 calories, vs 500 calories spread out through dinner.

If your Every Other Day Diet works better I would like to order the book and give it a try... scared to start.


Her answer: If you feel more comfortable spreading the calories throughout the day, that's fine. I've been doing 8 years of research on this diet, and the book discusses all of my findings to date. It also includes recipes and tips to make the diet easier. Best of luck!


That is not an answer to me, and it IS a prompt to try to sell her book for the recipes. You can go to her FB page and see this.



Now all I have to do is dig out the old recipes and set a start day and get back to JUDD again. I seriously don't think I could just do a 500 calorie lunch. It's just me. Now I am off to go fix my weight gain here.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:44 PM   #60
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Start Date: Low calorie 6/12 ; Low carb 9/12/ ; JUDDD 11/13/12
I hate to say it, but even in her interviews she seems to be trying to "sell" the book, by suggesting eating pizza and doughnuts on the alternate days...and basically just driving home the fact that you can eat whatever you want, as long as you fast eod. I admit that it was one of the factors that drew me to JUDDD too, but after a year in, I see that it's not exactly like that.

Also, I don't think many people would be able to stick with EOD if they ate cookies for their calories on their DD. It's proven by people here, and that's enough "research" for me.
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