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Old 12-31-2013, 01:23 AM   #31
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Slowsure, thank you for sharing that excerpt!

I see I am going to have to do some reading.
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:46 AM   #32
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"In my scientific studies with groups of people, we carefully determine 25% of normal caloric intake for each study participant, using a precise formula and double-checking it with a sophisticated medical test."
The book really should define what normal calories is so that you can calculate the 25%, even if it is a reference to TDEE and provide a standard calculation. Her description of how they determined normal is very un-scientific!

TDEE is just an average caloric need and every individual needs to adjust the result to fit their specific metabolism and activity level.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:46 AM   #33
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Slow, thank you for your comments. I so value your sharing and interpreting studies like that, and would love for you to do more of that. Personally, I'm very interested in the science, but really need someone to digest and put it into lay-terms for me. I maybe I should say more want than need.

Dawn, very interesting comments about what has/is working for you. I always value your perspective and tuck away comments from you, Carly, Adi, Kissa, Slow, Flutter, theredhead about maintenance for later. So thanks for sticking around and sharing, all of you!
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:24 AM   #34
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The book really should define what normal calories is so that you can calculate the 25%, even if it is a reference to TDEE and provide a standard calculation. Her description of how they determined normal is very un-scientific!

TDEE is just an average caloric need and every individual needs to adjust the result to fit their specific metabolism and activity level.
I kind of agree there. I think the authors and/or the editors/marketing team decided it was important to keep the diet simple and the book free of too much scientific jargon. I'd like more of that, personally -- not necessarily jargon, but give me all the science! I do like it clarified, though... I don't enjoy reading the scientific journal articles particularly, although I can. I just want the bottom line. Assuming your average reader feels the same way, I think it was a marketing decision.

Isn't it important to get a true TDEE to know the person's muscle and body fat percentages? She probably did a sophisticated body fat test on her test subjects; it would be the only way she would know how much muscle and fat the subjects had before and after the experiment.

I do think that almost everyone would be successful on 500 calories, but what Dr. Johnson does is easy enough, and depending on how important the 25% figure is (is 20% or 30% just as effective?) it might be important. It could be really important for those on the smaller or larger ends of the TDEE curve.

I am downloading Dr. Johnson's book right now!

p.s. I agree with Carol that it is super helpful to hear about everyone's maintenance plans and what is working for them. Dawn, what you're doing now sounds awesome.

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Old 01-09-2014, 12:05 PM   #35
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:20 PM   #36
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I agree with Dawn that all this is individual--perhaps because I'm also hypothyroid AND post-menopausal. My maintenance calories are much lower than any calculator.

But I really wanted to comment on Varaday's research--and warn that some of her results may not work for everyone. When I was actively losing with JUDDD some years ago, I read an article about her work--and it reported on the 'value' of the 12-2 pm eating window on DDs. I personally don't do well with 'windows' (become anxious if I know I can't eat), and I prefer to eat first thing in the morning. However, the claims for this 2-hour restriction were so strong, that I bit the bullet and did it. Granted, I only gave it 2 weeks, but it made no difference in my weight loss--and I was miserable.

Were there health benefits I was missing? I doubt it with my protein-focused, 370 cal DDs that were satisfying for me (I eat throughout the day with 50 cal 'meals').

I mention this because I suspect that sometimes people try to follow the latest 'research' and can wind up abandoning their plan because the suggestions aren't good for them. I suspect that if I felt I HAD to do 12-2 DDs, I would have abandoned the entire plan.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:44 PM   #37
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Thanks for posting, Ann. Seems like a better interview, but still less than authoritative somehow, and misleading statements ("your body will not let you overeat"). Still, much better than the first one.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:54 PM   #38
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I was disappointed in her frequent response of, "I don't know exactly why it works." ... well if she's the head researcher on EOD and she doesn't know, then what?

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Old 01-09-2014, 12:56 PM   #39
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I agree with Dawn that all this is individual--perhaps because I'm also hypothyroid AND post-menopausal. My maintenance calories are much lower than any calculator.

But I really wanted to comment on Varaday's research--and warn that some of her results may not work for everyone. When I was actively losing with JUDDD some years ago, I read an article about her work--and it reported on the 'value' of the 12-2 pm eating window on DDs. I personally don't do well with 'windows' (become anxious if I know I can't eat), and I prefer to eat first thing in the morning. However, the claims for this 2-hour restriction were so strong, that I bit the bullet and did it. Granted, I only gave it 2 weeks, but it made no difference in my weight loss--and I was miserable.

Were there health benefits I was missing? I doubt it with my protein-focused, 370 cal DDs that were satisfying for me (I eat throughout the day with 50 cal 'meals').

I mention this because I suspect that sometimes people try to follow the latest 'research' and can wind up abandoning their plan because the suggestions aren't good for them. I suspect that if I felt I HAD to do 12-2 DDs, I would have abandoned the entire plan.
Excellent insight and thank you for it. I'm going to listen to my body more than to the research. I've never been a breakfast eater. Not all my life and I stayed thin most of my life. When all the hype about breakfast being the most important meal of the day came out I started forcing myself to eat early. It makes me hungry all day. It just does.

Every now and then I need to eat early in the day, but not most days. When I need to, I do.

I think Varady said she did that solely for the purposes of her study (just think how many of her subjects must have been miserable. ) and when the results were good, she just assumed the eating window was part of it. Which is curious since she does stress that it's all about the calories.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:57 PM   #40
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[QUOTE=Leo41;16749676]I agree with Dawn that all this is individual--perhaps because I'm also hypothyroid AND post-menopausal. My maintenance calories are much lower than any calculator.

But I really wanted to comment on Varaday's research--and warn that some of her results may not work for everyone. When I was actively losing with JUDDD some years ago, I read an article about her work--and it reported on the 'value' of the 12-2 pm eating window on DDs. I personally don't do well with 'windows' (become anxious if I know I can't eat), and I prefer to eat first thing in the morning. However, the claims for this 2-hour restriction were so strong, that I bit the bullet and did it. Granted, I only gave it 2 weeks, but it made no difference in my weight loss--and I was miserable.

Were there health benefits I was missing? I doubt it with my protein-focused, 370 cal DDs that were satisfying for me (I eat throughout the day with 50 cal 'meals').

I mention this because I suspect that sometimes people try to follow the latest 'research' and can wind up abandoning their plan because the suggestions aren't good for them. I suspect that if I felt I HAD to do 12-2 DDs, I would have abandoned the entire plan.[/QUOTE]

Oh, me too. I eat at least 2 "meals" on DDs and often 3 meals and a snack. I don't do well with windows either. I also don't like saving all my calories all day for an evening meal.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:57 PM   #41
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Thanks Ann! That was a much better interview, but then again the host (the guy really didn't have much to say) was much more receptive. I think she's getting her "interview legs" now too.

I agree with you, Ann, about response of not being sure. I mean, that's totally appropriate but I wish she would say it in a more professional way, like, we're still studying the exact causes but speculate that it might be.....
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:14 PM   #42
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She made no mention of the SIRT1 gene being activated to reduce hunger. But then I thought I read somewhere that she refutes Dr. Johnson's and others research on that.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:15 PM   #43
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I think Varady said she did that solely for the purposes of her study (just think how many of her subjects must have been miserable. ) and when the results were good, she just assumed the eating window was part of it. Which is curious since she does stress that it's all about the calories.
She said recently on her Facebook site that eating the DD meal at lunch was for their study but if it worked better to do it at dinner instead, that was okay too.

She also mentioned that she is currently doing a study that compares whether it is better to eat the DD calories all in one meal or to break them up during the day. She said it's too early to draw any conclusions but she has had a much higher dropout rate in the side that's breaking up the calories so it appears that it's harder to do for most people.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:18 PM   #44
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She seems so unprofessional, somehow. I think the lady interviewer asked her how she got started researching IF, and if it was for her own weight loss, and she said something about how she needed to lose about 15 lbs and started restricting calories and then was like, Oh, why don't I just do "the diet"? And really, that wasn't what started her research was it?

Anyway, people are at least learning about IF and EOD, even if some of the "facts" are misleading.

ETA: She also said you'll lose about 3 lbs a week, and if you don't need to lose much (10 lbs), you'll lose a lb a week. More "facts".
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:58 PM   #45
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She seems so unprofessional, somehow. I think the lady interviewer asked her how she got started researching IF, and if it was for her own weight loss, and she said something about how she needed to lose about 15 lbs and started restricting calories and then was like, Oh, why don't I just do "the diet"? And really, that wasn't what started her research was it?

Anyway, people are at least learning about IF and EOD, even if some of the "facts" are misleading.

ETA: She also said you'll lose about 3 lbs a week, and if you don't need to lose much (10 lbs), you'll lose a lb a week. More "facts".
Huh! I wish! We know different, don't we! Leo41 and Dawn, Windows are definitely out for me too!
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:02 PM   #46
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Yeah, she irks me somehow. She doesn't speak with the authority of a scientist - more like a college student reporting on a research study.

Wouldn't it be better to underestimate initial losses and focus on long term benefits? 12 lb in 3 weeks seems like the exception rather than the rule. I'm not enthusiastic about JUDDD because of rapid weight loss, but more because of the continued weight loss without the stalling that might happen with other calorie reduction plans.
I was thrilled with my 6lb loss in the first 3 weeks.

Cindy, I had the same thought when she made that goofy comment about doing JUDDD as a afterthought - crazy! She had to be living and breathing JUDDD to be doing the research - I would think that would be the FIRST thought - "I need to try this!"

The window means nothing to me. I eat my cabbage soup every couple of hours - just when I get hungry.
And I don't eat "cookies" and "pieces of fruit" like she suggests...

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Old 01-09-2014, 03:26 PM   #47
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Yeah, I was very surprised at the suggestion of "cookies" on a DD. That would be the end of the DD for me!
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:33 PM   #48
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If she really said that she's 'comparing' whether it's better to eat all DD calories as one meal or spread them throughout the day, I think she's a total dingbat.

First of all, the plan is all about the calories. And anyone who knows even a slight bit about human physiology should know that if X calories are the limit for the day, it makes know difference at all when they are consumed.

I think that if people are going to be able to limit themselves to <500 cal on alternate days, they should be encouraged to do it in a way that works best for them. It's the calories, stupid

As I mentioned, if I'd been told that all DD food had to be at a single meal, I would never have done the plan.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:17 PM   #49
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If she really said that she's 'comparing' whether it's better to eat all DD calories as one meal or spread them throughout the day, I think she's a total dingbat.
I would imagine that part of the study is about compliance and part of it is to see if there is any benefit to a total fast for X amount of hours.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:18 PM   #50
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If she really said that she's 'comparing' whether it's better to eat all DD calories as one meal or spread them throughout the day, I think she's a total dingbat.

First of all, the plan is all about the calories. And anyone who knows even a slight bit about human physiology should know that if X calories are the limit for the day, it makes know difference at all when they are consumed.

In a way that works best for them. It's the calories, stupid think that if people are going to be able to limit themselves to <500 cal on alternate days, they should be encouraged to do it i

As I mentioned, if I'd been told that all DD food had to be at a single meal, I would never have done the plan.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:24 PM   #51
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Sorry, but I agree with Leo. I do think her "study" was to see if people stuck with the plan better if they ate all their calories at one meal or spread throughout the day. I don't know what other parameters she was "studying".
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:32 PM   #52
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if i up my DD calories to 500 than i MUST control my UD calories as i have already found that i gain if i don't. i really want the health benefits of fasting, not just the weight loss. a little disappointed that a very low DD does not give the same benefits.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:37 PM   #53
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Sorry, but I agree with Leo. I do think her "study" was to see if people stuck with the plan better if they ate all their calories at one meal or spread throughout the day. I don't know what other parameters she was "studying".
I agree. That's why I mentioned compliance. I do know that some people believe there are benefits to extended actual fasts and I thought maybe she was looking at that too but a lunch meal on DDs doesn't really give a very long fast (16 hours, roughly).
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:40 PM   #54
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if i up my DD calories to 500 than i MUST control my UD calories as i have already found that i gain if i don't. i really want the health benefits of fasting, not just the weight loss. a little disappointed that a very low DD does not give the same benefits.
I don't really care if zero calorie DDs aren't the best. I don't even have to think about UD calories when I don't eat on DDS. I could even eat 3000 calories on an UD and still only average 1500 a day, which is plenty low for me to lose. And 3000 calories is a lot and I doubt I could get there very often.

When I get closer to goal, I'll probably revisit this and probably eat a protein meal on DDs.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:47 PM   #55
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You also won't think 3000 calories is a lot when you get closer to goal. (or even further into JuDDD )
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Old 01-09-2014, 06:15 PM   #56
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I think she's a bit shy, and we're being awfully hard on her in this thread. I'm grateful for human research on alternate day fasting even if all the questions aren't answered yet or it's not all perfect. She explains a lot in the book that there isn't time to say in a 10 minute talk show segment ... you can read all about why she started to think about this as a diet for humans from rodent studies where she was actually trying to get the mice to NOT lose weight.
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Old 01-09-2014, 06:27 PM   #57
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I don't really care if zero calorie DDs aren't the best. I don't even have to think about UD calories when I don't eat on DDS. I could even eat 3000 calories on an UD and still only average 1500 a day, which is plenty low for me to lose. And 3000 calories is a lot and I doubt I could get there very often.

When I get closer to goal, I'll probably revisit this and probably eat a protein meal on DDs.
Dr. Johnson, seemed to think 0 calories were ideal on alternate days, and although the thinking may have changed and the "studies", I still think he had a point. Keep on keeping on.
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Old 01-09-2014, 06:31 PM   #58
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I think she's a bit shy, and we're being awfully hard on her in this thread. I'm grateful for human research on alternate day fasting even if all the questions aren't answered yet or it's not all perfect. She explains a lot in the book that there isn't time to say in a 10 minute talk show segment ... you can read all about why she started to think about this as a diet for humans from rodent studies where she was actually trying to get the mice to NOT lose weight.
I know what you're saying, and I hesitated to be as judgmental as I have been. However, I don't think I am required to give anyone the benefit of the doubt just because they have written a book. I am disturbed by some of the comments and responses, as well as the "research" that describes things that I happen to know differently from my own experience and from witnessing others on this site. I am not basing my opinions on the interviews. Sorry if this sounds harsh, and I appreciate anyone doing research into IF, IF it is sound research.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:05 PM   #59
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I'm not meaning to imply (if it sounded that way) that anyone needs to be a fan of Varady or her research ... it's just that I imagine it's just hard to be on those talk shows. If I went on there and tried to talk about my experience with JUDDD, I am POSITIVE I'd come across as a bumbling idiot.

I will go on record as liking Varady ... YMMV.

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Old 01-10-2014, 07:08 AM   #60
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Nothing personal against the woman, just the lack of research from the leading researcher on EOD concerning SIRT1.

For example: From Krista Varady's Facebook page.

"The Every Other Day Diet · 1,482 like this
December 2, 2013 at 1:34pm ·
Lisa asks: “How does fasting turn on your skinny gene?”

Your "skinny gene" is scientifically known as SIRT1. SIRT1 is thought to be turned on during periods of fasting, and acts to repair cells that have been damaged by free radicals. In this way, it helps to prevent cells from dying prematurely, and as such, may regulate lifespan and aging.

I know that Johnson's book focuses on "turning on the skinny gene" by alternate day fasting. Although this may be the case, I just want to point out that no human study has ever been done to show this. In fact, this has only been shown in yeast, worms and rodents so far. Saying that fasting turns on the skinny gene, at this point, just seems like a ploy to sell products such as Resveratrol (which have never been proven scientifically to work in humans).

This is not to say that fasting and calorie restriction aren't good for you…they definitely are! I'm just trying to point out that we really don't know what the underlying mechanisms are just yet. If any human research comes out, I'll be sure to share it. Thanks for the great question!"

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Last edited by SlimNana; 01-10-2014 at 07:17 AM..
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