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-   -   Do I have to eat on Down Days?? (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/juddd/818753-do-i-have-eat-down-days.html)

Sunshine_icicles 12-15-2013 06:32 PM

Do I have to eat on Down Days??
 
Hi guys!

So I'm really struggling. I had my first week on JUDDD and it was a beast. I just can't seem to keep my down days to 500. It seems as if I eat, I'm going to eat over that. I've tried to do the portioning from meals. Like only having half a cup of the entree of what I'm feeding my family for dinner. However, that just leads to me becoming more hungry?

I've found that if I just plan on not eating at all, it goes better? I'm not worrying about only eating a teaspoon of this, quarter cup of that...etc.

I'm wondering if this can be healthy? If I try to be sure and eat my daily values on my up days, and take a multivitamin every day?

Any advice welcome!

Yennie 12-15-2013 06:47 PM

Dr Johnson prefers zero calorie DDs but didn't figure anyone would be willing to do a zero calorie DD so he put the upper limits like 500 or the number that comes with the calculator. As long as you're eating all your UD calories you should be fine. Many JBs find they lose better/faster with super low DDs so you're probably setting yourself up for great success!

Sunshine_icicles 12-15-2013 06:55 PM

I love the horse ticker Yennie! Are you horsey?

Tomorrow is a DD for me. I think I'll try and stick to as few of calories as possible. I'll not count teas or broth but no food for me, I think.

gotsomeold 12-16-2013 04:26 AM

Many people (raised hand) find they don't get really hungry until they eat something solid. I have had many all-liquid DDs.

Most of us inhabit bodies that are designed for and expect the occasional famine. As long as your UD calories compensate, and as long as you are not a type 1 diabetic, zero cal DDs shoud be nbd.

PS: when JUDDD Magic kicks in, you may find you can modify your DD eating.

mafiamom 12-16-2013 05:22 AM

raises hand. i try to keep my DD's as low as possible now that i have stopped counting calories on UD's. and YES! once you "break the chewing seal" it seems almost impossible to stop. i too, do liquid for most of the day, and then eat a low calorie dinner. i really need to try to cut out the chewing dinner too, as it gives me the munchies during the hardest part of the day - which would be night time, for me.

Librarygirl 12-16-2013 06:16 AM

It's fine to do as low calorie as you can stand on DDs. I wish I could do a complete fast easily! I can go all day on just liquids, but I need a small meal at night. And a bedtime snack, sometimes. If you do eat, you might find it easier to eat just one meal late in the day, or at nighttime. Also, until you've been JUDDDing for a while, it probably would be easier to plan special DD dinners just for yourself, that you know the exact calorie count for. :)

ks4 12-16-2013 06:46 AM

I agree with the above except that I find even liquids that are sweetened (stevia with almond milk for me) to trigger hunger. When I just drink tea all day I feel hunger sometimes but it is not extreme and easy to forget about but when I have a drink that arouses my taste buds I seem to not function without food anymore.

I guess it depends on the person though ... I was fine drinking sweetened tea and coffee before but can't do it anymore without getting REALLY hungry.

Kissa 12-16-2013 06:49 AM

If you clan do it go for it. Frosty is doing that and Dr J recommends it.

Eieio 12-16-2013 07:09 AM

It's caz your getting smaller, your meltinggggg. Said in my Witches voice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ks4 (Post 16719833)
I agree with the above except that I find even liquids that are sweetened (stevia with almond milk for me) to trigger hunger. When I just drink tea all day I feel hunger sometimes but it is not extreme and easy to forget about but when I have a drink that arouses my taste buds I seem to not function without food anymore.

I guess it depends on the person though ... I was fine drinking sweetened tea and coffee before but can't do it anymore without getting REALLY hungry.

There! I :jumpjoy:Hope Ive made your morning!

JMBM 12-16-2013 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yennie (Post 16719469)
Dr Johnson prefers zero calorie DDs but didn't figure anyone would be willing to do a zero calorie DD so he put the upper limits like 500 or the number that comes with the calculator. As long as you're eating all your UD calories you should be fine. Many JBs find they lose better/faster with super low DDs so you're probably setting yourself up for great success!

Yup, I always do better the lower I keep my DD. :goodpost:

Carly 12-16-2013 06:52 PM

Yup, it is 10 minutes to 10pm and all I've had is 2 cups of coffee with SF creamer. I'm going to have a few ounces of lettuce with some chopped up celery and turkey pepperoni with my arthritis medication and then off to sleep.

Zero calorie DD is ideal, but liquid only is fine if you like that for yourself.

gotsomeold 12-17-2013 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ks4 (Post 16719833)
I agree with the above except that I find even liquids that are sweetened (stevia with almond milk for me) to trigger hunger. ....

Golly, it has been so long since I drank anything sweet (sugar or AS) I guess I :laugh: forgot drinks can be sweet!

But then, when I want sweet I want put-it-in-your-mouth-and-chew-it-savor-it sweet!

Ailuros 12-17-2013 03:13 AM

Interesting to read people’s experiences. I haven’t had any problem with three small meals, though I’m eating more DD calories than most (around 500, so I eat 3x150, with 50 left for a bedtime drink). On odd times that I’ve reduced my calories to something close to the calculated values, I think I’m doing OK, but my husband can always tell because I get very fragile and don’t want to deal with anything or anybody. He can eat nothing at all and be fine.

SlowSure 12-17-2013 03:26 AM

TMI on gut issues

I eat food on DDs (e.g. vegetables in a broth, shirataki noodles, glucomannan pudding) because without that volume my TMI constipation issues are inconvenient through to painful and the cause of tissue damage.

Because I eat far less carbohydrate than I have at any other time in my life, my volume of consumption is low and it's affected my digestive/excretory system.

DD consumption very much reflects what works for people and it might have to adapt at various times.

itsmeshelly01 12-17-2013 03:56 AM

I wish I could do a total DD fast.
I am going to be trying to go as long as possible today on liquids and taking some homemade gelatin and homemade soup If I need it.

Eieio 12-17-2013 07:06 AM

Carly u r amazing, such low dd, I count yours as ZERO
 
Frosty does 0 as well?

oceania 12-29-2013 09:02 PM

I'm going to aim for 0cals DD or at least under 300- I'm going to try tomorrow and will try to hold off as long as I can tomorrow before eating and hopefully work up to it by next week when I really get down to business.

So what liquids can we drink and still be considered 0 or very low cal? Obviously water, I've read broths and herbal teas. A lot of people use creamers but they use acronyms and I have no idea what they stand for - plus I like to consume natural foods as possible so I stay away from processed stuff like creamers but I prefer organic cream in my coffee (can't drink it otherwise) and for my black tea I need to add some honey and milk so that would be out?

Also I wonder if 0 cal is possible on workout days? I have set work days that I do first thing in the morning, after a couple of hours I'm hungry. Anyone have experience with this? Maybe I can omit the cardio and just do weights?

nikki 12-29-2013 09:39 PM

My DD's are under 350 but I eat all of those calories in a six hour window between 3 - 9 PM. If I eat any earlier I can't stay on plan all evening. The later I wait to eat my first bite, the better I can stick to my plan.

I have been thinking of pushing my first bite to 4 PM and cutting out, or at least cutting back, my evening nuts-in-the-shell. That would bring me down to 275. I'd like to do a complete fast but so far I haven't been able to manage anything remotely close to that.

nikki 12-29-2013 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceania (Post 16733558)
Also I wonder if 0 cal is possible on workout days? I have set work days that I do first thing in the morning, after a couple of hours I'm hungry. Anyone have experience with this? Maybe I can omit the cardio and just do weights?

When I was in a serious weight training program I would do mild cardio (walking or a gentle elliptical workout) on DD's but I only did my full workout (lifting plus serious cardio) on UpDays because the point of lifting weights is to build muscle. To do that you have to consume protein (I used carb-free protein powder) immediately following the workout so that the muscles can rebuild themselves. You could conceivably do this on a regular DD (it would be hard), but it would be counterproductive to do weight training on a 0 calorie day. Your body would probably cannibalize muscle tissue to fuel the workout, and then there would be no protein available to rebuild the muscle. This would result in a net muscle loss. NOT what you want to accomplish. If I had to choose, I'd choose mild cardio such as walking for a 0 calorie day.

oceania 12-29-2013 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikki (Post 16733587)
When I was in a serious weight training program I would do mild cardio (walking or a gentle elliptical workout) on DD's but I only did my full workout (lifting plus serious cardio) on UpDays because the point of lifting weights is to build muscle. To do that you have to consume protein (I used carb-free protein powder) immediately following the workout so that the muscles can rebuild themselves. You could conceivably do this on a regular DD (it would be hard), but it would be counterproductive to do weight training on a 0 calorie day. Your body would probably cannibalize muscle tissue to fuel the workout, and then there would be no protein available to rebuild the muscle. This would result in a net muscle loss. NOT what you want to accomplish. If I had to choose, I'd choose mild cardio such as walking for a 0 calorie day.

Thanks, I rather give up cardio than weights on my workout days, so I'll have to give 0cal days some thought or be flexible enough to switch my workout days.

Another question for you folks - what time do you stop eating on a UD? I generally finish eating by 7 or 8 but that would be early if I was to do a 0cal the next.

oceania 12-29-2013 10:17 PM

I was searching on weight training and IF and I think I'm OK with what I'm doing - I'm definitely not losing muscle and don't eat protein after my workouts...just not sure if I can go without eating the whole day if I did weight training that day. Here's some info for anyone else that has similar concerns:

The Definitive Guide to Intermittent Fasting | Muscle For Life

Because when you eat protein, it can result in a steady release of amino acids for many, many hours. So if you eat a meal full of slow-burning proteins, such as casein or egg, and you then fast for 12-16 hours, your body is going to have plenty of free amino acids available in the blood for conversion into glucose. Cannibalizing muscle won’t be necessary.

A Beginner's Guide to Intermittent Fasting | Nerd Fitness
“Won’t fasting cause muscle loss?”

Another big concern of mine, but it turns out…it was unfounded. We’ve been told by the supplement industry that we need to consume 30 g of protein every few hours, as that’s the most amount of protein our body can process at a time. Along with that, we’ve been told that if we don’t eat protein every few hours, our body’s muscle will start to break down to be burned as energy.

Again, NOT TRUE! This study shows that our bodies are quite adept at preserving muscle even when fasting, and it turns out that protein absorption by our body can take place over many many many hours. Protein consumed in a shorter period of time has no difference on the body compared to protein spread throughout the day.
Intermittent Fasting: 12 Lessons Learned from 1 Year of Fasting

6. Like most things, you should take a long–term view of eating.

Too often we think about our diet in super short timeframes.

It’s better to think about what we eat over the course of a week than over the course of a day (or worse, a few hours). For example, whether or not you have a protein shake within 30 minutes of working out, is largely a non–issue if you’re getting a meal of quality protein within 24 hours of working out.

One reason intermittent fasting works is because the super short timeframes that we are pitched by food companies and supplement companies are largely a myth. Let’s say you eat 3 quality meals per day. That’s 21 meals per week. Over the course of a week, do you think your body cares if the meals are eaten from 8am to 8pm (the normal eating schedule) or 1pm to 8pm (an intermittent fasting schedule)?

How about if we stretch it out over the course of a month? Wouldn’t it make sense that if you ate 80 quality meals every month (about 3 per day) that your body would make the most of those meals whether you ate them in an 8–hour block or a 12–hour block on each individual day?

When you take a slightly longer view, you start to realize that the time difference between eating from 8am to 8pm versus eating from 1pm to 8pm isn’t that large over the course of a week or a month.

7. It’s strange, but when I’m fasting I want food less.

Now that I’ve started fasting, I want food less. I’m not addicted to it. I’m not a victim to my diet. I eat when I want because I want to, not because my body tells me I have to.

This is a marked change from my previous eating schedule and I think the additional power and flexibility I have over my diet now is a benefit.

8. Losing fat and gaining muscle can both be done, just not together.

If you’re looking to lose fat and build muscle mass, then the combination of intermittent fasting, calorie cycling, and carb cycling that I have mentioned here is one of the best solutions you’ll find.

You see, it’s basically impossible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. To lose weight, you need to burn more calories than you take in. You need to have a net calorie deficit.

To build muscle, you need to eat more calories than you burn. You need to have a net calorie surplus.

It should be fairly obvious that you can’t have a net surplus and a net deficit at the same time. For example, you can either eat more than 2,000 calories or you can eat less than 2,000 calories … but you can’t do both at the same time. This is why it’s basically impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

Planelman 12-30-2013 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceania (Post 16733594)
8. Losing fat and gaining muscle can both be done, just not together.

If youíre looking to lose fat and build muscle mass, then the combination of intermittent fasting, calorie cycling, and carb cycling that I have mentioned here is one of the best solutions youíll find.

You see, itís basically impossible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. To lose weight, you need to burn more calories than you take in. You need to have a net calorie deficit.

To build muscle, you need to eat more calories than you burn. You need to have a net calorie surplus.

It should be fairly obvious that you canít have a net surplus and a net deficit at the same time. For example, you can either eat more than 2,000 calories or you can eat less than 2,000 calories Ö but you canít do both at the same time. This is why itís basically impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

I would not say it is impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, here is a great article that specifically talks about this subject. Adding Muscle While Losing Fat by Lyle McDonald.

Intermittent Fasting and calorie cycling are one of the most effective ways to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, doing a body recomposition type protocol. Timing your exercise and macros to fuel muscle growth in an overfed state, and burn fat in an underfed state, Leangains is a protocol that specifically does this and there is a website for it, but there are others.

I personally think that JUDDD is a great opportunity to combine the calorie cycling with training periods/rest periods to achieve body recomposition that you would not get through other diets.

Also if your only tool for measuring fat loss is the scale when your doing a recomp then you will not see the actual results and may think it is not working. Because you are swapping fat for muscle it will not show up on the scales. Measuring and tracking BF % is the only way to see it.

It does work, I've been doing this for many months and I have made plenty of gains in strength and tracked fat losses without corresponding changes in the scale.

Carly 12-30-2013 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceania (Post 16733558)
I'm going to aim for 0cals DD or at least under 300- I'm going to try tomorrow and will try to hold off as long as I can tomorrow before eating and hopefully work up to it by next week when I really get down to business.

So what liquids can we drink and still be considered 0 or very low cal? Obviously water, I've read broths and herbal teas. A lot of people use creamers but they use acronyms and I have no idea what they stand for - plus I like to consume natural foods as possible so I stay away from processed stuff like creamers but I prefer organic cream in my coffee (can't drink it otherwise) and for my black tea I need to add some honey and milk so that would be out?

I'm just going to address the part about 0 calorie liquids. Water is 0 calories to which you can add Crystal Light or Mio drops. I'm sure there are other 0 calorie flavorings to add to water. Tea of any sort is virtually 0 calories if you add nothing to it other than artificial sweetener and the same goes for coffee.

Broth varies by brand. I use to use Better than Bouillon. The chicken is 15 calories for a tsp and 10 calories for a tsp of beef.
I used .5 a tsp for a standard mug so 5-8 calories- not much.
Almost all diet soda is 0 calories, too.

oceania 12-30-2013 08:24 AM

Thanks Carly!

Thanks for sharing Planelman. I've been reading about Lean Gains (even though I heard about it a while ago). I'm so confused what to do. I don't want to make things complicated and I'm not hardcore enough to do all that macro counting. I'm also not one for taking supplements or protein shakes. According to Martin's site:

======================
* ADF (alternate day fasting, 36/12 hrs fast/feed). See also The Alternate-Day Diet, which is a milder form of ADF. While I don't think The Alternate-Day Diet is an optimal approach for the fitness enthusiast, Johnson's book is surprisingly good and scientifically accurate. Everything about the title ("turn on your skinny gene") screams faddishness, but I was pleasantly surprised after finishing it. Having read all the quoted studies on ADF myself, I could not find any major misrepresentation of the findings apart from a few too optimistic blurbs about fasting and life extension. I can easily recommend this book for it's summary of the ADF findings. And while the nutritional advice might not be cutting edge, it's certainly not bad or misleading either.

Leangains is specifically tailored to fitness and strength training, and for those wanting to get as lean and strong as possible. In comparison to other intermittent fasting based diets much more emphasis is put on proper pre- and post-workout nutrition. There are also specific guidelines with regards to calorie cycling, macrocomposition and meal timing.

============

Apparently what I've been doing is "detrimental" by doing fasted workouts but I've noticed a marked improvement and strength gains so I guess you have to take everything with a grain of salt. A lot of Martin's stuff seems to be geared towards those who gym rats that want to be ripped or bulk up whereas JUDDD doesn't really focus on the fitness/strength training aspect. I feel like I'm in between the 2.

Planelman 12-30-2013 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceania (Post 16733917)
Apparently what I've been doing is "detrimental" by doing fasted workouts but I've noticed a marked improvement and strength gains so I guess you have to take everything with a grain of salt. A lot of Martin's stuff seems to be geared towards those who gym rats that want to be ripped or bulk up whereas JUDDD doesn't really focus on the fitness/strength training aspect. I feel like I'm in between the 2.

I don't think training fasted is detrimental and if you aren't trying to become ripped then it is much less of a problem. Lean Gains actually allows for fasted training and supplementing with BCAA's until you eat if you are not going to eat right after training. This is actually an easy supplement and is basically a 5 calorie drink in most cases. But really it may not even be an issue and you could just wait to eat at a normal time.

The same protocol can easily be used to do a recomp without the goal of being ripped. And if you are tracking calories, then tracking macros is almost always available for any tracking app if you are using one. If not then just generally making sure you are getting sufficient protein and making sure that feast days coincide with workout days and you have some more carbohydrates those days and less fat, and on fast days you try to get as much protein within your calorie limits along with fat and have less carbohydrates.

Finding the right mix if sometimes trial an error, but once you get it dialed in it will work.

oceania 12-30-2013 09:16 AM

Thanks again Planelman!

Martin actually used the word detrimental on his website so that's what I was all in a tizzy - I don't know why I let that affect me since I've been doing that for the last 3 months without issue.

However, I've decided not to go 0cal on my DD, I don't think that's necessary for me plus I was doing good with the diet eating some calories (I broke down and put cream in my coffee but I feel sooo much better now having consumed something) BUT I decided I'm going to save most of those DD cals at the end of day so that I have some calories before bed, that way the next day if I'm working out I won't be working out after fasting 20 hours or something.

I may alternate my workout days to match my UD, it's not as complicated as I thought it was going to be though I do like working out on set days. I'm going to play around with that but I'm not going to make it complicated or something that I don't like because then I won't do it.

I'm feeling better about this - it's so confusing to read such conflicting things. I read one article that was bashing JUDDD but most I've read have said positive things, I'm happy Martin approves of it ...hahaha

I can't believe I spent the whole morning reflecting over this!! I was supposed to do school work so I better get to that and then cleaning.

Sorry for hijacking this thread sunshine_icicles!

Planelman 12-30-2013 09:59 AM

I'm a big believer in if you are really hungry, after you drink some water and give it a chance to go away, and then realize it is real hunger, then go ahead and eat something. There is no need to suffer. And if you eat above your calories, then so be it. If you are exercising there is really no real way to know exactly how much your burning calorie wise and depending on the exercise level you chose in the calculator your numbers may assume no exercise, so you probably really do need it. The difference between a 400 or a 700 calorie day or even a 500 or 1000, really is negligible in the long run and may actually help you to lose weight. If you suffer through the hunger and you really need it, it could be more detrimental. And if you are making healthy choices for the foods you eat, both DD's and UD's then any additional calories you get will ultimately go to good use.

nikki 12-30-2013 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planelman (Post 16733747)
Intermittent Fasting and calorie cycling are one of the most effective ways to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, doing a body recomposition type protocol. Timing your exercise and macros to fuel muscle growth in an overfed state, and burn fat in an underfed state, Leangains is a protocol that specifically does this and there is a website for it, but there are others.
I personally think that JUDDD is a great opportunity to combine the calorie cycling with training periods/rest periods to achieve body recomposition that you would not get through other diets.

I hope no one misunderstood me; I was not saying that JUDDD or IF was incompatible with muscle gain/fat loss. I have personally, in the past, lost fat and gained muscle simultaneously using this method. I was suggesting that rigorous weight training would best be scheduled on Up Days with plenty of protein for building muscle.

I wasn't referring to protein consumpton to feed the need for gluconeogenesis for brain function on down days. I was suggesting that excessive exercise on a down day would add a HUGE burden of gluconeogenesis for fueling your workout, well in excess of the generally suggested 130g (or 30 - 60g if you are ketoadapted). Additionally, you would also need protein to rebuild the muscle after the workout, not for gluconeogenesis. Only protein can build muscle; if you have a strenuous workout one day, but you do not add any dietary protein that day, the muscle will be broken down (as happens during weight training, hence term "shred") but the only protein available for your body to re-build the muscles in the hours after the workout would be - your own muscle tissue. You would rapidly go into overtraining, where the muscles are "shredded" but are not able to rebuild sufficiently.

On a 0 calorie day, the only protein available for gluconeogenesis would be body tissue. Your brain can adapt to using ketones, glycerol, and lactate as a partial substitute for glucose. The result of this is that the need for glucose in a perfectly keto-adapted brain is not the usual 130g, but can instead be as low as 30-60g. However, the numbers in the study were calculated without adding strenuous exercise as a factor. If you add strenuous exercise, this will significantly increase the burden on the liver to produce glucose. Under a significant exercise load, and in the absence of dietary protein source, some of that glucose must be manufactured by cannibalizing muscle tissue. This will only occur on a 0 calorie DD if you exercise strenuously. Milder exercise will burn ketones.

I would recommend a small carb-free protein shake if you are planning a strenuous workout on a DD. That would be <100 calories and it would ensure you are not going to lose muscle tissue that day. If you are determined to have 0 calorie day, light exercise, such as walking, is preferable that day. Otherwise I'd schedule my heavy lifting days on Up Days. Then there's no conflict.

When I was seriously weightlifting, I'd do my heavy lifting (legs and core) AND 75 minutes of strenuous cardio on Up Days with an on-plan, carb-free protein shake afterward. Lifting first (to burn up intramuscular glycogen), then cardio afterwards, to burn up fat. It was a three hour workout.

On DD's I'd do my arms (a much lighter workout) in the morning and in the evening a one hour walk with the dog, using a body weight vest, arm weights, and ankle weights (still a much lighter workout than on up days). But I wasn't doing a 0 calorie DD. I always had that protein shake after my weight training, even on down days. If I had a 0 calorie day, I'd just walk the dog without weights that day.

Several years ago, I lost sixty-five pounds this way, but I also became very fit and strong. So I'm pretty sure I probably lost more like 80 pounds of fat and gained 15 pounds of muscle.



Do you lift weights every day?

nikki 12-30-2013 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceania (Post 16733991)
I may alternate my workout days to match my UD, it's not as complicated as I thought it was going to be though I do like working out on set days. I'm going to play around with that but I'm not going to make it complicated or something that I don't like because then I won't do it.

Oh, now I'm getting you!

When I did it, my other obligations were such that I had to always schedule my weightlifting on Tuesdays, Fridays, and Sundays. This meant that I had to schedule a MD once a week so my workouts could stay on a schedule. UD's were Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. DD's were always Mondays & Wednesdays, and the MD was always Saturday. It was more sensible (for me) to adjust the DD/UD schedule than to adjust the workout schedule.

oceania 12-30-2013 06:42 PM

So I managed not to eat anything all day except 2 tbsp of cream in the morning, I was doing OK didn't really feel hungry and kept myself busy, did get a little bit irritable at point point but that was it. Around 7:30 I figured I should eat dinner so I had 2 small pieces of fish and some brussel sprouts and ever since then I've been starving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I ate some cashews and cheese as that usually tides me over but even that didn't work. I think my next DD I'm not going to eat anything, I'll just stick with coffee and cream because this is torture. Going to try and go to sleep because I don't want to eat anymore, otherwise I'm going to go over 500cals.


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