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Old 09-03-2013, 09:10 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham View Post
I was actually trying to just eat food on my down days, but switched to protein powder for one meal per day just as a convenience.

What is casein?
You basically have two types of protein powders - whey (fast) and casein (slow). Bodybuilders will use the whey immediately after a workout to flood their systems with amino acids but they get "eaten up" by the body very quickly. They want that to happen, so that's good. You don't. You want to stay full. If you bought just a regular PP off the shelf, chances are very good it was whey-based since that's more common. To explain, this is from an article from a BB-ing site:

"...with whey protein, it will take only 40 minutes for blood levels of amino acids and protein synthesis to reach a peak, and in about an hour they will come back to normal after a single feeding of protein. This is amazingly fast in comparison to its counterpart casein, or even whole food.
Casein has a unique property, in that it coagulates in the stomach. This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly.
Have you ever tried to run through a vat of tar? It isn't easy by any means. You would be moving very slowly. Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel.
... we have one more weapon in the arsenal that we can use. And that is our good ol' friend, food. In general, whole food proteins are digested very slowly. That means they will cause a mild and constant stream of amino acids into the blood, much like casein. However, most whole foods do not coagulate in the stomach and do not slow the digestion of other proteins. (Casein coagulates.)
...in summary, casein is a "slow" protein that is classified as anti-catabolic. That means that it prevent excessive protein breakdown. Whey protein is a "fast" protein that is classified as anabolic - meaning that it stimulates protein synthesis, but does not inhibit catabolism."

Here's what I'm talking about: Optimum Nutrition 100% Casein Protein

I haven't tried that particular brand but it has pretty good reviews. If you had 1/2 serving at night on an UD or periodically through the day on a DD, you would find it provides far, far better appetite suppression than your whey (there really is no comparison). That might turn off the "Help! I'm starving!" signals that your stomach is sending off. And it will help with your BF% goals too.

If you want, I can do some research on "foods" (well, not normal foods, but quasi-foods that look sort of normal and taste ok) that you can make with casein. I usually used to make a "protein cookie" - no carbs added, only butter - in the microwave and made my own bars and things like that, but most had whey, not casein.

I hope this helps.
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:44 AM   #32
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Well, I am playing with my spreadsheets and coming up with a new plan, and for now, it looks like this:

Up Day
1850 calories
144.4g fat (70.2%)
105.6g protein (22.8%)
32g carbs (6.9%)

Down Day
463 calories
36.1g fat (70.2%)
26.4g protein (22.8%)
8g carbs (6.9%)

Averaging the two days together:

1156 calories
90.3g fat (70.2%)
66g protein (22.8%)
20g carbs (6.9%)

Of course, these are the exact numbers that my spreadsheet gives me, and I would not be obsessive about hitting those exact numbers on each day, but I would attempt to get close to them.

I would think that an average of 1156 calories per day of high fat, moderate protein, very low carb food would be enough of a deficit to still be able to lose weight. I looked at the JUDDD calculator, and that is the same average of daily calories for the 50% maintenance mode. According to the calculator, that would be 1542/771 and I plan on 1850/463. I am hoping that the bigger spread between the two days will give me an extra boost, plus let me eat more on DDs.

Doing this, I am going to be trying to increase my carbs just a little bit and maybe get in some lower carb veggies and see if my blood sugar can handle it.

Also, I am counting total carbs, not net carbs, so even if I am getting 32 total carbs on my UD, it is really only a fraction of that number that will impact blood sugar.

Thanks, everyone, for letting me use you as a sounding board as I attempt to make this work for me.
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
Elphie and Rebecca, I believe it takes a long time for this WOE to feel "natural". It's true that some people adapt extremely quick, and are probably the best losers on here, but for most of us, this is a required taste, so to speak. I have been eating every day of my life, for the most part, 3 meals a day plus snacks including any diets I have tried, so that makes 48 years of doing things one way. It goes without saying, that extreme calorie restriciton EOD would take adjustment for almost anyone. I truly believe that it is a very healty way of life, and a natural way to stay slim and I'm so grateful that I found it. However, your feelings are very valid and understandable, so don't beat yourself up for not adapting more quickly.
Thanks for your thoughts, Cindy!
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:47 AM   #34
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as i recall, Cottage Cheese is mostly casein. I find it keeps me full for hours.
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:49 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquelinejolie View Post
You basically have two types of protein powders - whey (fast) and casein (slow). Bodybuilders will use the whey immediately after a workout to flood their systems with amino acids but they get "eaten up" by the body very quickly. They want that to happen, so that's good. You don't. You want to stay full. If you bought just a regular PP off the shelf, chances are very good it was whey-based since that's more common. To explain, this is from an article from a BB-ing site:

"...with whey protein, it will take only 40 minutes for blood levels of amino acids and protein synthesis to reach a peak, and in about an hour they will come back to normal after a single feeding of protein. This is amazingly fast in comparison to its counterpart casein, or even whole food.
Casein has a unique property, in that it coagulates in the stomach. This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly.
Have you ever tried to run through a vat of tar? It isn't easy by any means. You would be moving very slowly. Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel.
... we have one more weapon in the arsenal that we can use. And that is our good ol' friend, food. In general, whole food proteins are digested very slowly. That means they will cause a mild and constant stream of amino acids into the blood, much like casein. However, most whole foods do not coagulate in the stomach and do not slow the digestion of other proteins. (Casein coagulates.)
...in summary, casein is a "slow" protein that is classified as anti-catabolic. That means that it prevent excessive protein breakdown. Whey protein is a "fast" protein that is classified as anabolic - meaning that it stimulates protein synthesis, but does not inhibit catabolism."

Here's what I'm talking about: Optimum Nutrition 100% Casein Protein

I haven't tried that particular brand but it has pretty good reviews. If you had 1/2 serving at night on an UD or periodically through the day on a DD, you would find it provides far, far better appetite suppression than your whey (there really is no comparison). That might turn off the "Help! I'm starving!" signals that your stomach is sending off. And it will help with your BF% goals too.

If you want, I can do some research on "foods" (well, not normal foods, but quasi-foods that look sort of normal and taste ok) that you can make with casein. I usually used to make a "protein cookie" - no carbs added, only butter - in the microwave and made my own bars and things like that, but most had whey, not casein.

I hope this helps.
Thanks so much for all of that information! I will definitely look into it.
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:50 AM   #36
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Good luck. My husband fasts completely on his down days, because he finds that easier than very restricted eating. Both of us lost weight well on LC, but finally felt too restricted. There are probably lots of combinations that will work; the trick is to find one that you can live with as well. I’m sure you’ll get there.
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:51 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
as i recall, Cottage Cheese is mostly casein. I find it keeps me full for hours.
Sadly, I have a moderate intolerance to dairy, so I limit it to only once every four days. But, I love cottage cheese, and I could have it on every other down day! Thanks for the information!
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:53 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ailuros View Post
Good luck. My husband fasts completely on his down days, because he finds that easier than very restricted eating. Both of us lost weight well on LC, but finally felt too restricted. There are probably lots of combinations that will work; the trick is to find one that you can live with as well. I’m sure you’ll get there.
Thanks for the encouragement! I wish my husband was doing this with me, but I am not going to ask him to. I know his answer would be no. He is close to his goal weight and is doing well, so there is no reason for him to change what he is doing.
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:57 AM   #39
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I don't know if it would help Rebecca, but I am also lactose intolerant. I use lactaid pills when I eat it and it is just fine--
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:58 AM   #40
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It does make it easier if you can align your eating to some extent, but my main point was that we have each made quite different adjustments to suit our different tastes/needs. There’ll be some combination out there that will work for you, I’m sure.
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Old 09-03-2013, 06:53 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
as i recall, Cottage Cheese is mostly casein. I find it keeps me full for hours.
I agree. Cottage cheese leaves me feeling satisfied. I like it with cinnamon and Splenda or Danici SF syrup. I also like it with pink Himalayan salt. I must get some cottage cheese tomorrow!
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:26 PM   #42
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How did I miss this thread today? I'm late to the discussion - sorry about that.

You've gotten great, thoughtful responses. I'm glad you're raising your DD calories. I know that when I'm feeling that old diet fatigue feeling, and tell myself I can go to 600 or even 800 I feel such a sense of relief. I may eat all those calories, but many times I don't feel like I need to go all the way to the maximum number. Just knowing I can if I need/want to is enough mental relief.

You really are so close to where you want to wind up. That's very exciting and I'm so happy for you for that. Take it easy and lose these last few pounds as slowly as you need to, to feel comfortable. As we all know, you won't stick with it if you're not happy and not feeling good about it.
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:51 PM   #43
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I am too late for the discussion. It is 5 p.m. here in So. Ca. but everyone back East is
way after their dinner.

Found a recipe on LCF for Tastes Like Ice Cream, made with cottage cheese.
I am trying it out tonight. Hope it's good. It's hot here and I want something
sweet and cold. I called it frozen yogurt but it's really cottage cheese,
almond milk, sf cocoa powder and Truvia. If it's good I'll post it tomorrow.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:49 AM   #44
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Cottage cheese triggers HUNGER for me.
Good thing I don't like it!
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:15 AM   #45
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Quote:
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Elphie and Rebecca, I believe it takes a long time for this WOE to feel "natural".
AGREE!

It took me a long time to find my groove. And I did, massively, UUAAD just about every up day, at first. I did/do not count. I also did weigh myself during this time period, just accepted it as a period of adjustment.

I entered my down days being "thankful" for them, as I knew my "satiated"/stuffed feelings would stick around well into the "halfway" mark of my DD.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:25 AM   #46
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When it comes to counting, it's all about what works. JUDDD worked for me at first with not counting, but a couple months in I needed to start when I stopped losing as well. I'm not actually sure that there are lots of people around here who are not counting up days at least some of the time? (speak up if you're out there, in WLM, and have been here at least 3 months and losing successfully?)
I am not counting. I am happy with this WOE as I am working it, that is, I find this to be very sustainable for the long term. However, I hope it results in weight loss...not sure about that as I find the scale just too discouraging to weigh myself right now. I do see changes in the way my clothes are fitting and how I look in pictures.

The way I see it, my WOE can't "not" result in weight loss...as I am eating very reasonably on my UD's and having only coffee (with crap creamer stuff) on DD's.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:49 AM   #47
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AGREE!I entered my down days being "thankful" for them, as I knew my "satiated"/stuffed feelings would stick around well into the "halfway" mark of my DD.
I am still hungry on my down days from beginning to end! I have increased my food a little on the DDs. This morning, I am ravenous! I think I'll have my chicken bone broth with butter and sea salt now, instead of waiting for lunch time.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:51 AM   #48
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I am not counting. I am happy with this WOE as I am working it, that is, I find this to be very sustainable for the long term. However, I hope it results in weight loss...not sure about that as I find the scale just too discouraging to weigh myself right now. I do see changes in the way my clothes are fitting and how I look in pictures.

The way I see it, my WOE can't "not" result in weight loss...as I am eating very reasonably on my UD's and having only coffee (with crap creamer stuff) on DD's.
I LOVE it when the number on the scale goes up when my measurements are going down! That means I have lost body fat and put on muscle.

If you see that your size is going down, you are doing the same!
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:58 AM   #49
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Sadly, I have a moderate intolerance to dairy, so I limit it to only once every four days. But, I love cottage cheese, and I could have it on every other down day! Thanks for the information!
I don't know how you would find this - maybe a raw milk site? But milk from Jersey, Dexter and Guernsey cows are supposed to have significantly less (if any) of the A1 element that triggers intolerance issues. But it's not an intolerance to lactose but the protein in the milk depending on the cow/breed. Apparently they cause much the same kind of upset stomach. I've never seen it up here (never looked because we don't have intolerance issues), but I know that A2 milk / milk products are available in Australia. There's lots of anecdotal reports that I've read of people with "lactose" intolerance being able to drink A2 milk with no problem.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:59 AM   #50
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I LOVE it when the number on the scale goes up when my measurements are going down! That means I have lost body fat and put on muscle.

If you see that your size is going down, you are doing the same!
Thanks for the encouragement, Rebecca. I really need some!
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:38 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquelinejolie View Post
I don't know how you would find this - maybe a raw milk site? But milk from Jersey, Dexter and Guernsey cows are supposed to have significantly less (if any) of the A1 element that triggers intolerance issues. But it's not an intolerance to lactose but the protein in the milk depending on the cow/breed. Apparently they cause much the same kind of upset stomach. I've never seen it up here (never looked because we don't have intolerance issues), but I know that A2 milk / milk products are available in Australia. There's lots of anecdotal reports that I've read of people with "lactose" intolerance being able to drink A2 milk with no problem.
The only dairy I am really interested in is sour cream and heavy cream, and I don't feel the need to have dairy all the time.

I do not get an upset stomach from dairy. I get acne and other kinds of inflammation, plus weight gain.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:59 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Flossyliz View Post
Cottage cheese triggers HUNGER for me.
Good thing I don't like it!
I thought it was just me... cottage cheese triggers HUNGER for me also, but I love it - especially with pears and walnuts on top!!
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:39 AM   #53
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I LOVE it when the number on the scale goes up when my measurements are going down! That means I have lost body fat and put on muscle.

If you see that your size is going down, you are doing the same!
I love this Rebecca! Yesterday I was consoling myself that even though I was up 3.5 pounds from my most recent low, I was down nearly 4 inches in the past month. Kept telling myself over and over, "you're not gaining fat if you're getting smaller (dummy)" But I have to keep telling myself that. Maybe someday I'll learn and be able to relax about the scale.

You have a great, healthy, and smart attitude about all this!
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:47 AM   #54
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Hi Rebecca,

I'm so glad you asked the group about your JUDDD concerns. The Buddds are so supportive and knowledgeable about this plan--you are sure to get to something that works with their help!

I'm also a T2. And something odd happened with JUDDD. On UDs I still eat low carb, high fat. I keep an "eye" on what I eat, but pretty much know now that it's around 1400-1500 cals daily and about 30-60g of net carbs.

On DDs I eat about the same # of carbs and drop my protein down to around 45-56g. And eat any remaining cals in fat. And guess what? My blood sugar is better than it was at ZC or VLC. Weird huh?

I mostly eat only 1 time per day on DDs. That works cuz I'm busy during the day. My night meal looks about the same as Denny's on DDs (just lower fat). So I tend to start with dinner when planning my DD. I know I can make a fantastic meal for 250-400 calories. I mean truly fab LC meal. And that leaves enough for a small afternoon snack if I need it or for dessert afterward.

I get all the fat I want on UDs...

I know many here eat under 500 cals, but I cleave devoutly to Dr J saying there is no evidence that it's necessary or of greater benefit to do less than 500 cals per day. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

(Even eating little added fat and only using my vacuum pump bottle from Pampered Chef for my olive oil spritzes I still get between 30-40% fat on DDs -- so it's not like it's "low fat"--simply lower than someone eating fat bombs and drinking bullet proof coffee. I gain weight doing that cuz my insulin levels don't drop low enough...)

So that's my 2cents.

Can't wait to hear how the new plan is working for you!
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:28 PM   #55
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Pooticus, where did Dr. J say that about going under 500 not helping? I would love to read that section! I recall him saying that 50 or 100 calories above or below your 20% isn't going to make much, if any, difference, but I always thought he recommended going down to 20% for maximum weight loss. I tend to stick to between 400-600 and I lose quite slowly, but it suits me right now.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:16 PM   #56
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Hello everyone

Pooticus I am with you on not eating on DD right away but putting it off as long
as possible. I am not hungry until I start eating. I can go the morning
after and UPP day on 2 mugs of coffee with HWC. You said it right,
that you can make a whale of a meal/meals out of 400 cals. Drink more water!
My diet is called the JUDDD NOT YET plan
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:13 PM   #57
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Boy, you just described me too Barbo. Coffee/HWC all morning/early afternoon, supplemented with iced tea, and I'm good to go most of the day. Funny how we all make it our own.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:45 AM   #58
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Have you considered Pterostilbene Rebecca? Many of us find it really helps with hunger.

The is a whole thread about it here but you would be best to do some of your own study... and knowing you I am sure you will.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:00 AM   #59
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Barbo, me2!!! I'm ggod to go mostly, until I start eating...then I better have enough volume to hit the full switch or else the mean hungries are unleashed. By the time dinner rolls around, I feel like my DD is over and I now have a 36 hour "feast" day should I want it. Most days I still end up having about a 6-8 hou eating window with few problems but it has been a process getting to thus point. It didn't just happen.

Cindy I'll look that part up for you when I get up again. I have my left arm in the lymphedema bandages and it's a PIA to get the computer, mouse, and keyboard set up. It was when he discussed calculating DD cals. He said they found little benefit in going lower than 500 cals/day regardless of your actual DD cals.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:07 AM   #60
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Michael Mosely also concluded the same, very little/if any benefit to going under 500 cals per day for women and 600 for men folk
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