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Old 08-31-2013, 11:35 AM   #1
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Michael Mosley on sparing muscle mass

Found this on an article in the Telegraph called "Lunch with Michael Mosley, the guru behind the 5:2 diet":

"Lunch is ready, and as it’s a fast day, I dish up shiitake mushroom, lemon grass and ginger broth, laced with low-carb Japanese shirataki noodles, one of the ingredients that have kept me on the straight and narrow over the past five months of dieting...

Mosley is delighted, or at least very polite, about being served up less than 200 calories. But will it hit the mark nutritionally? I worry about satiating hunger on fast days, and bulk up with loads of veg rather than worrying about vitamins. Mosley, however, disagrees. “I think nutritional content is absolutely key. If you are going to eat less food it should be as good as possible. You need high protein because while you store carbohydrate and fat, your body doesn’t store protein.” If it runs out of protein, it’ll break down muscle.

My loads-of-veg policy is fine, too, as it has lots of fibre – as long as I have some high-quality protein such as chicken or fish, too. I quickly add some poached chicken to our bowls. Mosley looks approving. “Fibre and protein, those are the things that fill you up. But it turns out that those are the things that are pretty good for you as well.” "
And from this article: thefastdiet Intermittent fasting and muscle breakdown / protein deficiency
I never go more than 12 hours without eating. If your protein intake is adequate, and we actually recommend an increased protein intake on fasting days, then you are not going to get “muscle protein breakdown”. In fact the evidence from human studies clearly point towards intermittent fasting being better than standard diets when it comes to muscle preservation.
How much protein on DD's are people here aiming for (if it's something you're concerned about)?

I'm trying to hit 80-100g on DD's and a bit more on UD's but am wondering if I could lower it to 70-75g and be okay? I'm not a meat lover by any means. At first I was trying to not eat for as long as possible on both DD's and UD's because it seemed to work better for appetite control for others - but noticed that when I did that was when I actually lost LBM according to the scale (imprecise as it probably is - although it seems a lot more accurate than I thought it would be - but that could be muscle hydration?) LBM has stayed pretty steady since I upped my protein consumption.

But I've also read some other conflicting research that indicates that autophagy only occurs after 24-48 hours of complete fasting (it was done on mice though). And autophagy protects against Alzheimers (runs in my family albeit in 90+ y.o.'s) On the other hand, exercise also induces autophagy - so... ??? Maybe just keep exercising until I'm 90+?

Do any other muscle weighers / trackers have data on LBM tracking in response to intake and fasting periods and what's worked or not worked for them?
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:09 PM   #2
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Oops - meant to mention that I came out to 75g of protein as being the lower threshold that I'd aim for as that was the amount used in Krista Varady's study on ADF published last summer. Average fat loss in that study over 8 weeks was 4.2-5.4 kgs with no loss of fat free mass (in fact a small increase). They were fed at 25% reduction 3 times a day and it appears that the high fat diet produced better results / adherence than the lower fat diet.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:22 PM   #3
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We had some good conversations about this here Losing Weight While Preserving Lean Body Mass

And here My body fat assessment (SlowSure)

I don't do IF or JUDDD, I do Atkins with a nod toward NK, but preserving my LBM while losing excess fat is my goal. No matter what else I eat, I try to eat enough protein every day. I don't always succeed, but I try. According to Dr. Phinney (who co-wrote the most recent Atkins book, and several NK books), muscle loss can occur within a day of not eating enough protein (can't remember where he said that, perhaps the Jimmy Moore podcast?).

I get my body fat tested hydrostatically a few times per year to make sure that I'm on track, and so far, I've been able to keep all but ~0.5 lbs of LBM, while losing over 50 lbs of fat.
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Old 08-31-2013, 01:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
We had some good conversations about this here Losing Weight While Preserving Lean Body Mass

And here My body fat assessment (SlowSure)

I don't do IF or JUDDD, I do Atkins with a nod toward NK, but preserving my LBM while losing excess fat is my goal. No matter what else I eat, I try to eat enough protein every day. I don't always succeed, but I try. According to Dr. Phinney (who co-wrote the most recent Atkins book, and several NK books), muscle loss can occur within a day of not eating enough protein (can't remember where he said that, perhaps the Jimmy Moore podcast?).

I get my body fat tested hydrostatically a few times per year to make sure that I'm on track, and so far, I've been able to keep all but ~0.5 lbs of LBM, while losing over 50 lbs of fat.
Thanks Ntombi! I to you and your muscle mass! That's an amazing accomplishment.

Actually realized I had a reading comprehension problem on the ADF study - on "down days" they were given lunch/ate only once a day at noon (~650 calories) and had dinner of ~ 1100 calories between 6-8 pm the evening before so that's about a 16-18 hour window.
However, there is no possible way I can ingest 75 g of protein (unless whey is involved and I'd prefer whole foods) in one noon-day meal so that's out for me as an option so splitting into 2 meals (11 & 7 p.m.) seems about right. I also can't eat 3300 (125% for them if I did my math right) calories on up days like the ladies in the study were doing. I wonder how much of the muscle-sparing was due to the volume they could consume on their up days? Larger meals would have a slower transition time.

It's hard to find anyone doing the kind of ADF we're doing here on BB forums - and they're mostly men anyway so their mileage always varies. I'll have to continue to test on myself.

Last edited by jacquelinejolie; 08-31-2013 at 01:33 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 08-31-2013, 01:44 PM   #5
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That's a good question. I don't count calories or protein, only carb, but I'm conscious of not over- or under-eating protein in a general way. My loose protein goal is 120g/day, and I average that much, but don't worry about day to day precision.

I don't know the ins and outs of JUDDD, how are the caloric goals for UDs and DDs calculated? Is that 3300 the test subjects ate on the high side for a typical JUDDDer?
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Old 08-31-2013, 04:16 PM   #6
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That's a good question. I don't count calories or protein, only carb, but I'm conscious of not over- or under-eating protein in a general way. My loose protein goal is 120g/day, and I average that much, but don't worry about day to day precision.

I don't know the ins and outs of JUDDD, how are the caloric goals for UDs and DDs calculated? Is that 3300 the test subjects ate on the high side for a typical JUDDDer?
120g is a good, solid number. I can't do it myself without protein powder involved. If potato chips were made out of protein, I could.

Yes, 3300 would be very high compared to someone on JUDDD since it's over 125% more than what a JUDDDer would eat. Unless they were having an "Up Up and Away Day" - where you go over your Up Day numbers. The study was at 25% deficit of maintenance calories on fasting days (like our down days) and 125% of maintenance calories for the "up" days whereas JUDDD is 100% maintenance calories on up days. The women in the study were about an average of 200 pounds in weight going into it and it looks like their maintenance calories were about 2650/day (which is moderate exercise at that age, height, weight on a TDEE calculator). Anyway, in terms of calories, they were at 3300 (UD) / 660 (DD), average ~2000. They lost pretty well at about 1.2-1.5# fat/week.

If this was a JUDDD-er, at that starting weight (200), avg age (43), avg height (5'5"), their numbers would be:
20% = 1955 UD / 391 DD
Up to (35% in weight loss mode) = 1955 / 684
Both considering little to no exercise.

With moderate exercise, it goes up to:
20% mode: 2525 / 505
25% mode: 2525 / 631

Interesting that there didn't seem to be a slow down in the graph of their weight loss over time - esp. for the higher fat group (100g fat vs 55g for lower fat). But 10 weeks on a diet isn't much time. 2.75" avg lost in the waist too, which is pretty good for only 10 pounds or so of scale weight lost.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquelinejolie View Post
Found this on an article in the Telegraph called "Lunch with Michael Mosley, the guru behind the 5:2 diet":

"Lunch is ready, and as it’s a fast day, I dish up shiitake mushroom, lemon grass and ginger broth, laced with low-carb Japanese shirataki noodles, one of the ingredients that have kept me on the straight and narrow over the past five months of dieting...

Mosley is delighted, or at least very polite, about being served up less than 200 calories. But will it hit the mark nutritionally? I worry about satiating hunger on fast days, and bulk up with loads of veg rather than worrying about vitamins. Mosley, however, disagrees. “I think nutritional content is absolutely key. If you are going to eat less food it should be as good as possible. You need high protein because while you store carbohydrate and fat, your body doesn’t store protein.” If it runs out of protein, it’ll break down muscle.

My loads-of-veg policy is fine, too, as it has lots of fibre – as long as I have some high-quality protein such as chicken or fish, too. I quickly add some poached chicken to our bowls. Mosley looks approving. “Fibre and protein, those are the things that fill you up. But it turns out that those are the things that are pretty good for you as well.” "
And from this article: thefastdiet Intermittent fasting and muscle breakdown / protein deficiency
I never go more than 12 hours without eating. If your protein intake is adequate, and we actually recommend an increased protein intake on fasting days, then you are not going to get “muscle protein breakdown”. In fact the evidence from human studies clearly point towards intermittent fasting being better than standard diets when it comes to muscle preservation.
How much protein on DD's are people here aiming for (if it's something you're concerned about)?

I'm trying to hit 80-100g on DD's and a bit more on UD's but am wondering if I could lower it to 70-75g and be okay? I'm not a meat lover by any means. At first I was trying to not eat for as long as possible on both DD's and UD's because it seemed to work better for appetite control for others - but noticed that when I did that was when I actually lost LBM according to the scale (imprecise as it probably is - although it seems a lot more accurate than I thought it would be - but that could be muscle hydration?) LBM has stayed pretty steady since I upped my protein consumption.

But I've also read some other conflicting research that indicates that autophagy only occurs after 24-48 hours of complete fasting (it was done on mice though). And autophagy protects against Alzheimers (runs in my family albeit in 90+ y.o.'s) On the other hand, exercise also induces autophagy - so... ??? Maybe just keep exercising until I'm 90+?

Do any other muscle weighers / trackers have data on LBM tracking in response to intake and fasting periods and what's worked or not worked for them?
Thank you for the article, just to make sure I understand correctly, who (Moseley or the interviewer) said...

Quote:
I never go more than 12 hours without eating. If your protein intake is adequate, and we actually recommend an increased protein intake on fasting days, then you are not going to get “muscle protein breakdown”. In fact the evidence from human studies clearly point towards intermittent fasting being better than standard diets when it comes to muscle preservation.
Since I do 16/8 with 5:2, I wonder if Mr. Mosley advises this.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:36 PM   #8
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Cathy, that was Mosley that said that, not the interviewer - she thought she was doing fine with the veggies only. Maybe that's why Mosley eats breakfast and dinner on his own program?

I found a source that says that time in the stomach (only, not intestines) is:

Whole milk/hard cheese: 4-5 hours
Fruit: 20-40 minutes
Potatoes: 60 minutes
Fish: 30-60 minutes
Beef: 3-4 hours
Pork: 4.5-5 hours
Chicken: 1.5-2 hours

There was no mention of whether the meats had skin, fat or what method of cooking. I really hate being hungry. And then of course, things would move into the intestines for further digestion. About 6-8 hours to move through stomach and small intestine on to the large intestine for further digestion. Elimination begins after 24 hours but digestion is finished before that.

I know Brad Pilon (Eat Stop Eat) has done a ton of research on this and his method goes for 24 hours. But bodybuilders on forums I frequent think his method is ridiculous and catabolic...

I think if we go back to the ADF study and see that women on that protocol could go for 16 hours (8 pm at the latest to noon the next day and then 12-2 p.m. to 6-8 a.m. - so 18 hours minimum - and that's after a meal of under 700 calories so much less than you would eat) and apparently maintain and even build muscle - with NO extra (if any) training (on 75 g of protein and the higher the fat, the better) - that's good enough for me.

Last edited by jacquelinejolie; 08-31-2013 at 09:40 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:36 PM   #9
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Okay, the difference in the stomach between red meat vs. poultry and seafood is really interesting. We're talking in the main lobby about how some of us (myself included) lose better eating red meat. I wonder if that is a factor. I had no idea it was such a big difference.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:12 AM   #10
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I think that no two bodies are the same. I think these diets are guidelines and that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for someone else. When you find something that is healthy and works for you, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks!
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:50 AM   #11
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I find this topic super interesting, what to eat on DD's has always been a sore point for me, I am not a big meat eater, but recently I've stopped JUDDD due to some health issues, mainly anxiety related symptoms (or appears like that except I am not stressed????) however, I'm actually following another everyday plan and have made a concerted effort to eat more fish, meat and eggs, not only did I drop a lot of weight I am eating much less in general and almost nothing between meals, previously I was a big picker/grazer.

I am also interested in the actual fasting hours required as many of the approaches seem to indicate that JUDDD is really quite an extreme option in terms of the actual fasting hours and I do wonder if the actual calories consumed is in fact more important at times than the number of hours in a fasted state if you follow me?
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:55 AM   #12
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Oh and just a quickie to add, I lost better on JUDDD when I did not pay any attention to my UD numbers, and just ate what I wanted.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Okay, the difference in the stomach between red meat vs. poultry and seafood is really interesting. We're talking in the main lobby about how some of us (myself included) lose better eating red meat. I wonder if that is a factor. I had no idea it was such a big difference.
Agreed, I could have said that too anecdotally. Satiation is huge. If you're not hungry, you simply won't eat as much and won't even realize you're doing it, should happen naturally and painlessly.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:20 AM   #14
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Where might eggs be on this list?

I found a source that says that time in the stomach (only, not intestines) is:

Whole milk/hard cheese: 4-5 hours
Fruit: 20-40 minutes
Potatoes: 60 minutes
Fish: 30-60 minutes
Beef: 3-4 hours
Pork: 4.5-5 hours
Chicken: 1.5-2 hours
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:07 AM   #15
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Seeds - Sunflower, pumpkin, pepita, sesame - 2 hours.
Nuts - Almonds, filberts, peanuts (raw), cashews, brazil, walnuts, pecans etc. - 2 1/2 to 3 hours
Skim milk, cottage or low fat pot cheese or ricotta - 90 min.
whole milk cottage cheese - 120 min.
whole milk hard cheese - 4 to 5 hours
Egg yolk - 30 min.
Whole egg - 45 min.

I would have thought eggs were longer??

Gives some guidance too as to when to train - generally it's a no-no to train at the same time your body is trying to digest food (leads to cramping etc. in some people).
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:22 AM   #16
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Emma,
I am curious what everyday plan you went with after leaving JUDDD where you lost a lost of weight while ultimately eating less.

Thank you!
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:45 AM   #17
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I find this topic super interesting, what to eat on DD's has always been a sore point for me, I am not a big meat eater, but recently I've stopped JUDDD due to some health issues, mainly anxiety related symptoms (or appears like that except I am not stressed????) however, I'm actually following another everyday plan and have made a concerted effort to eat more fish, meat and eggs, not only did I drop a lot of weight I am eating much less in general and almost nothing between meals, previously I was a big picker/grazer.

I am also interested in the actual fasting hours required as many of the approaches seem to indicate that JUDDD is really quite an extreme option in terms of the actual fasting hours and I do wonder if the actual calories consumed is in fact more important at times than the number of hours in a fasted state if you follow me?
I don't know either Emma. I'm going to replicate (with a lower calorie intake because I'm a bit smaller than the ladies in the study) and test the meal timing and macro consumption used in the study on myself in September and see what happens to body composition, mood, digestion, etc. I find the same thing with grazing - I graze when I've gone too carb-y only - like low fat regular yogurt or granola bars. I believe that it's not only the calories consumed, but the macros consumed as well.
Might test what happens if I split the DD meal into two meals too in October. Sometimes it's more what you can adhere to than what's scientifically "better".
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeWorkerMT View Post
Emma,
I am curious what everyday plan you went with after leaving JUDDD where you lost a lost of weight while ultimately eating less.

Thank you!
Laura
I am currently following a uk plan called slimming world essentially its just about eating plenty of fruit and veg with good carbs and protein, its only temporary until I feel like fasting again.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:34 AM   #19
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I don't know either Emma. I'm going to replicate (with a lower calorie intake because I'm a bit smaller than the ladies in the study) and test the meal timing and macro consumption used in the study on myself in September and see what happens to body composition, mood, digestion, etc. I find the same thing with grazing - I graze when I've gone too carb-y only - like low fat regular yogurt or granola bars. I believe that it's not only the calories consumed, but the macros consumed as well.
Might test what happens if I split the DD meal into two meals too in October. Sometimes it's more what you can adhere to than what's scientifically "better".
I will be following you with interest, good luck with the experiment, really hoping you uncover some useful insights.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #20
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Thanks, JJ. I too would have thought eggs were longer, but I do know a lot of posters on LCF indicate that eggs don't stay with them for long. They are my breakfast standby, but I usually have some kind of BPC . . . so that is probably a good combo for me. I am usually not hungry until early afternoon, and I typically breakfast early.

Egg yolk - 30 min.
Whole egg - 45 min.

I would have thought eggs were longer??

Last edited by Patience; 09-01-2013 at 11:44 AM..
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:41 PM   #21
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Cathy, that was Mosley that said that, not the interviewer - she thought she was doing fine with the veggies only. Maybe that's why Mosley eats breakfast and dinner on his own program?

I found a source that says that time in the stomach (only, not intestines) is:

Whole milk/hard cheese: 4-5 hours
Fruit: 20-40 minutes
Potatoes: 60 minutes
Fish: 30-60 minutes
Beef: 3-4 hours
Pork: 4.5-5 hours
Chicken: 1.5-2 hours

There was no mention of whether the meats had skin, fat or what method of cooking. I really hate being hungry. And then of course, things would move into the intestines for further digestion. About 6-8 hours to move through stomach and small intestine on to the large intestine for further digestion. Elimination begins after 24 hours but digestion is finished before that.

I know Brad Pilon (Eat Stop Eat) has done a ton of research on this and his method goes for 24 hours. But bodybuilders on forums I frequent think his method is ridiculous and catabolic...

I think if we go back to the ADF study and see that women on that protocol could go for 16 hours (8 pm at the latest to noon the next day and then 12-2 p.m. to 6-8 a.m. - so 18 hours minimum - and that's after a meal of under 700 calories so much less than you would eat) and apparently maintain and even build muscle - with NO extra (if any) training (on 75 g of protein and the higher the fat, the better) - that's good enough for me.
Thank you, I agree, it's good enough for me too! I appreciate all the research and thanks for the food lists!
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:41 AM   #22
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Oh and just a quickie to add, I lost better on JUDDD when I did not pay any attention to my UD numbers, and just ate what I wanted.
I'm trying to stick to my maintenance calories of ~2000 for the experiment (am posting about it in my journal with probably TMI) but will definitely go up by 25% to 2500 if appetite dictates it to match study %'ages. I suspect that I tended to under-eat a bit on UD's before but wasn't really counting well or at all and just ate to appetite.

Still trying to stay higher fat though/within macros and am unsure what to do about exercise calories. I'm eating higher than the study ladies on DD's because I'm not sedentary but not extremely active. Am a sloth at heart but have a dog and children to keep me in line. I'd eat back all of my exercise cals, but I don't really know what it's going to be from day to day - or not until the end of the day anyway and eating at night would defeat the noon meal purpose if timing is important (which I think it is?) Maybe an evening high-fat/protein snack (like greek yogurt) would be ok, I don't know?
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:03 AM   #23
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Now here is a guy who advocates having some 0 protein days. His hypothisis is that
during out day by day life some of our proteins get damaged and may end up just being
garbage in our cells interfering with normal functioning. But on a day that we have close to 0 protein our bodies may preform a type of housekeeping called angophaty and
this can be a verry good thing.


Protein Cycling Diet – proteincyclingdiet
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:46 AM   #24
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Isn't that what we call a down day?
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:49 AM   #25
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I have been experimenting the last two DD's with eating two meals of 2-3oz of beef. Those two DD's were very easy so I tend to go wild on UD's so I am eating beef today to see if helps. I had eggs for breakfast at 5:30 and by 9:30 I was starving. I can see why with 45 minutes as the time it takes for an egg to leave the stomach. Maybe if I add pork sausage with the eggs since pork takes the longest to digest in the stomach. Anyone else experimenting with protein?
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:10 PM   #26
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I'm having an egg day today, Adi. HB eggs for me, but I won't have my first one until late afternoon (hopefully). Just Coffee/HWC so far, and I'm just having it now. Maybe a little chicken breast for dinner.
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:20 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adillenal View Post
I have been experimenting the last two DD's with eating two meals of 2-3oz of beef. Those two DD's were very easy so I tend to go wild on UD's so I am eating beef today to see if helps. I had eggs for breakfast at 5:30 and by 9:30 I was starving. I can see why with 45 minutes as the time it takes for an egg to leave the stomach. Maybe if I add pork sausage with the eggs since pork takes the longest to digest in the stomach. Anyone else experimenting with protein?
I am experimenting Adi - trying to go for either beef or pork on DD's. Just trying to get some kind of read on whether or not it has to have fat - and if so, how much. The best for me so far has been chili made with lots of beans and regular (not reduced fat) hamburger. I even put some of the fat from the hamburger frying into the chili! Can't really believe I did that but it's been the most filling meal so far. Might be a staple for UD dinners too. No problems waiting until later in the afternoon to eat on a DD with that meal.

I like eggs fried with bacon or in leftover bacon fat so maybe that's why I've always thought they "stuck to your ribs" (as my grandmother used to say.) It might have partly been the bacon fat that did it.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:26 AM   #28
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I am doing very well on hamburger patties on my DD's. Home grown beef that is pretty lean but have no idea of the percentage. Today I had a pork sausage patty for breakfast at 5:30 and I just had my little HB patty at noon so it was 6.5 hours with no hunger. My DD calories are higher but much higher in protein. I can also add that my crepey skin on my arms is going away. Looks like I may have been losing muscle as well as fat and that is why I looked so awful. I have not gained anything and I think I look much better physically than before I added in the large amounts of protein. Not fat but protein.

And I was thinking eggs would be filling. Not if they leave the stomach in 45 minutes. I will save those for UD's when I can add other things like cheese to them.

And here is the BEST PART. I no longer crave ice cream on my UD's. I can take it or leave it now. AND my weight is staying right at 139 on both UD's and DD's. No more bounce.

I am cooking three packages of ground beef at a time and keep the patties in the frig. Dh has discovered them and is taking one for lunch everyday and he isn't even on JUDDD.

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Old 09-10-2013, 12:43 PM   #29
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I am going to give the red meat a try Adillenal as I find a lot of the things that work for you also work for my system as well.
I did track my LBM and body fat % on a scale when I was following strict JUDDD rotations and losing weight fairly quickly last year and I found that even though my overall protein consumption was lower due to my reduced consumption on DD's my body fat dropped by 2% or so and my LBM went up by a few %. This was surprising as I had reduced weight training and increased my endurance training (marathon distance runner) which typically causes me to decrease muscle mass. I haven't been tracking lately as I wasn't following JUDDD as carefully this summer. Now that I am back on track this fall I will have to start looking at it again.
Interesting topic
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:36 PM   #30
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I am going to give the red meat a try Adillenal as I find a lot of the things that work for you also work for my system as well.
I did track my LBM and body fat % on a scale when I was following strict JUDDD rotations and losing weight fairly quickly last year and I found that even though my overall protein consumption was lower due to my reduced consumption on DD's my body fat dropped by 2% or so and my LBM went up by a few %. This was surprising as I had reduced weight training and increased my endurance training (marathon distance runner) which typically causes me to decrease muscle mass. I haven't been tracking lately as I wasn't following JUDDD as carefully this summer. Now that I am back on track this fall I will have to start looking at it again.
Interesting topic
I loked back at my menus and after I started doing potato DD's I gradually shifted to no meat at all. I was eating a baked potato o UD's and some yogurt and cottage cheese. Not intentional, it just happened. I am back to eating red meat and we shall see how I fare in the long term.
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