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Old 09-10-2013, 04:42 PM   #31
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I made chili with turkey and froze enough for the entire week, plus have already had 3 servings--6 servings at around 200 calories each. It satisfies me on DDs very well, and it also has kidney beans and tomatoes. I usually add a T of grated cheese and one or two T of greek yogurt.
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Old 09-11-2013, 03:45 AM   #32
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I am basing my food choices on the following:
Whole milk/hard cheese: 4-5 hours
Fruit: 20-40 minutes
Potatoes: 60 minutes
Fish: 30-60 minutes
Beef: 3-4 hours
Pork: 4.5-5 hours
Chicken: 1.5-2 hours
And since eggs are a fast mover, I tried scrambled this morning with shredded cheddar cheese so we shall see how that works for me on a UD. I was out of HWC so had milk and butter in my coffee. I will be busy today since I am still working two days a week and today is a work day.

We had rain last week so I am going to see this evening if my swiss chard has added some new leaves for dinner.
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:00 AM   #33
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question about the eggs. I notice that if I eat a hard boiled egg, I am satisfied for waaay longer than if I eat a scrambled egg. Weird, eh? But I know others have noticed the same thing. Makes me think that cooking method contributes somehow??
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:23 AM   #34
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I agree Ouiz, about the cooking method. HB seems most dense and satisfying. Then fried is pretty satisfying. Last is scrambled, which seems like fluff. I always think I'm getting more food when I eat 2 fried eggs vs. 2 scrambled eggs.
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:34 AM   #35
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I've actually been concentrating a little more on getting protein on my DDs. I'm set for 506 calories today and 57 grams of protein which is easily double my normal amount of DD protein. We'll see what happens. I'm not ready yet to do all meat or all egg DDs. I like my chili too much!
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:07 AM   #36
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I have a question about gaining muscle or LBM. Is it possible to do so while dieting, and NOT exercising?
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:08 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
question about the eggs. I notice that if I eat a hard boiled egg, I am satisfied for waaay longer than if I eat a scrambled egg. Weird, eh? But I know others have noticed the same thing. Makes me think that cooking method contributes somehow??
I am the opposite. I find scrambled eggs (or fried) more filling than boiled. Boiled eggs seem like a snack to me, and I don't feel like I've eaten hardly anything afterward.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:02 AM   #38
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I have a question about gaining muscle or LBM. Is it possible to do so while dieting, and NOT exercising?
I am going to vote yes and here is why. I am active but do not do formal exercise. When I reached goal I thought my arms and legs looked awful. To me I looked floppy if you can picture that. Since increasing my protein consumption on DD's as well as UD's, I have not gained weight but I am no longer floppy and my tight pants are loose. Now I think I am ready to get back to lifting weights and we shall see what happens. Just anecdotal and it has happened rathe quickly in my opinion.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
I have a question about gaining muscle or LBM. Is it possible to do so while dieting, and NOT exercising?
Yes, it's possible. But it's not going to be much. There's tons of studies on pubmed showing that a higher protein intake on a hypocaloric diet will lead to gains in FFM (fat free mass) without exercise. And a lower protein intake leads to FFM loss, even on a calorie deficit that isn't too terribly low (like 75% deficit of maintenance calories).

Wish I could give links here. Google dzones answer on paleohacks: muscle-gain-with-diet-alone-no-workout
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Old 09-11-2013, 03:28 PM   #40
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Good thoughts! I thought there were a few JBs who claim no exercise, yet LBM gains. I did drag my weight bench in last night, and plan to make use of it.
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:14 PM   #41
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Whole milk/hard cheese: 4-5 hours
Fruit: 20-40 minutes
Potatoes: 60 minutes
Fish: 30-60 minutes
Beef: 3-4 hours
Pork: 4.5-5 hours
Chicken: 1.5-2 hours[/B]

I am more then interested in this, can someone tell me how to get more info on it?

Today was a DD for me:

Breakfast was low sodium V8 and 3 cups of black coffee

Lunch was lettuce, fat free ranch dressing, canned salmon ( 1/3 cup??), 2 cups cabbage fried in 1/2 T. olive oil

Dinner was a hard boiled egg, 1/2 large apple

Snack - 6 oz beer

I have been on JUDD a long time and am just learning about the protein part!

I am interested in what fruits and veggies will stay with me the longest too!
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:24 PM   #42
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Leo, I think I got it from a few sources, one was - google the phrase: How long does it take to digest food? On Canoe.
Another was: do-fatty-foods-take-longer-to-digest-than-starchy-foods On livestrong.
And another: DIGESTION TIME OF VARIOUS FOODS On freetrainers.

I don't think I can link on here (seem to get a warning message when I try) or I would have put the links on for you.
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:47 PM   #43
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Did seven different arm exercises with 5 lb dumbbells, 12 reps each. I want to build up to 3 sets of 12 reps for each exercise. I can tell that my arms are fatigued now, and will be sore tomorrow. I'm going to work on abs and legs tomorrow. Feel good about it.
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:13 PM   #44
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[QUOTE=Librarygirl;16600508]Did seven different arm exercises with 5 lb dumbbells, 12 reps each. I want to build up to 3 sets of 12 reps for each exercise. I can tell that my arms are fatigued now, and will be sore tomorrow. I'm going to work on abs and legs tomorrow. Feel good about it. [/QUOTE

Woot!

If you find you're strapped for time, just focus on back, legs and chest. Your arms and shoulders will be worked out pretty well just from doing back (rows) and chest (benchpress). If you need inspiration, there's transformation pics and stories at Body for Life or check out "bodybuilding transformations over 40". Just getting a small percentage of the results of some of those women (who are pretty hard core) is more than enough for anyone who just wants to look half decent in a pair of shorts and tanktop.
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:14 AM   #45
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Wow ladies great discussion here!! Ouis, I too feel more satisfied with HB eggs. Adi can't wait to hear how you do with the red meat!
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:35 AM   #46
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[quote=jacquelinejolie;16600680]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
Did seven different arm exercises with 5 lb dumbbells, 12 reps each. I want to build up to 3 sets of 12 reps for each exercise. I can tell that my arms are fatigued now, and will be sore tomorrow. I'm going to work on abs and legs tomorrow. Feel good about it. [/QUOTE

Woot!

If you find you're strapped for time, just focus on back, legs and chest. Your arms and shoulders will be worked out pretty well just from doing back (rows) and chest (benchpress). If you need inspiration, there's transformation pics and stories at Body for Life or check out "bodybuilding transformations over 40". Just getting a small percentage of the results of some of those women (who are pretty hard core) is more than enough for anyone who just wants to look half decent in a pair of shorts and tanktop.
I guess I put everything into the "arm" category that wasn't for my legs. I did shoulders, back and chest too last night. I have looked at pictures and studied weight-lifting for over 20 years, off and on. I have never been able to make much of a difference in the way I look (although I was toned and slim), but used to go to the gym regularly--classes and weights, for years. I have never seen muscle definition in my arms or anywhere really, and I guess that's why I've always preferred cardio. I really would like to see something for the effort.
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Last edited by Librarygirl; 09-12-2013 at 06:38 AM..
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:42 AM   #47
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This has been a GREAT thread and I really appreciate the information here!
I have been lurking, but not posting, because I stopped doing JUDDD awhile back. I was just too hungry and psychologically the deprivation made me focus too much on food - always a diet buster for me. I think trying the potato hack put me over - I did not and do not respond well to all carbs. And up days were challenging in their own odd way. Again, it is all between my ears...
I will say, though, while I am not doing Atkins or ever will again, protein is my friend. Best friend. I keep coming back to it and again because it is simply satiating and calorie friendly. I am also doubly happy to hear that it may be preserving my lean body mass at the same time - a huge worry at my age, where I am already naturally losing lean body mass.
I too, share the surprise around eggs. Regardless, I find them filling and maybe the perfect form of protein in an inexpensive, easy to use, package. That and Carne Seco Jalepeno Beef Jerky
As always, I wish everyone here the best.
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:20 PM   #48
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Glad to see you popping in Jrudq! I think we are all focussing on being slimmer and healthier with JUDDD or whatever works. Same battle, different weapons
I tried to do a high protein DD and found it difficult to do as I had less quantity of food to eat and it left me feeling a little empty. I probably just need to figure out the right timing and protein choices to get it to work for me.
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:49 PM   #49
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[quote=Librarygirl;16601159]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquelinejolie View Post

I guess I put everything into the "arm" category that wasn't for my legs. I did shoulders, back and chest too last night. I have looked at pictures and studied weight-lifting for over 20 years, off and on. I have never been able to make much of a difference in the way I look (although I was toned and slim), but used to go to the gym regularly--classes and weights, for years. I have never seen muscle definition in my arms or anywhere really, and I guess that's why I've always preferred cardio. I really would like to see something for the effort.
It's tough to know what to do! It really is almost impossible for me to build a lot of muscle without deliberately "over-eating". I get defined, but don't build. And it seems like I'm always afraid of over-eating. And when I do over-eat naturally (too tired to cook), I'm too worn out to do any exercise! Plus I don't think potato chips and vodka/wine ==> hypertrophy.
I've read about some good results on BB forums on EOD re-feed patterns (they call it EOD re-feed rather than ADF) where they're lowering BF and gaining muscle concurrently. That's basically a higher protein version of JUDDD (more like a PSMF on DD's with maybe 4-500 calories of pure protein) with a fair amount of decent carbs (ie. pasta, bread etc. is ok, potato chips are not) on training days. Maybe there's an answer there?? I'm doing more research anyway - just trying not to re-invent a wheel that someone's already tested out. My laziness knows no bounds.
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:33 PM   #50
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I read recently about an actor who got very built for a role. His trainers had him over eating wayyy too much, then he dropped very low in calories, and the muscle definition was just there! It seems like JUDDD could be the perfect regimen for weight lifting, actually. I'm trying it.
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:59 PM   #51
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Was he doing a bulk and cut though? Like 2-4 weeks straight overeating and then 2-4 weeks on a calorie deficit? Or was he doing an every other day thing? Logically, I think it's possible to do it EOD and work out well. I've been slack on this and should test it out properly.

It would probably be best if you timed your workouts around when you were eating (an UD) - which is great incentive to lift heavy things: If you work out, you get to - no, HAVE TO go eat a lot. Go forth and feed your muscles! Woohoo! My only concern would be that sometimes when/what you grow doesn't happen until some time later. If you didn't have enough food at whenever that upper time limit was, it might not happen, KWIM? Man, I hate wasting effort.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:01 AM   #52
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I have been very surprised at being able to maintain my weight and eat higher DD's as long as it is pork and red meat on DD's. Haven't tried adding much else other than iceberg lettuce, dill pickle slices and ketchup. But I haven't gained. I had 800 calories on my Tuesday DD and 1000 yesterday. Menu consisted of home raised pork sausage for B and HB patties with lettuce, pickles and ketchup for the rest of the day. I will keep my DD's at or below 1000 for awhile to see if this holds up. It would sure be nice to eat 1000 calories on DD's and not gain. Plus my energy level is pretty stable the whole day and I am getting lots accomplished. I still haven't added formal exercise but I am doing squats and lunges while the milk machine is doing the work for me. I have done that off and on for the past year though. Interesting to note that I may have lowered my protein intake too much in order to lose on the scale.
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:03 AM   #53
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Just marking my spot on this important discussion. Hoping to learn something before doing more diet damage. Have been away for awhile and thinking of how to get on the right track to lose fat and maintain muscle. I think the right amount of protein is key. I seem to function better with frequent eating and have started to lose again after a troublesome upward trend, so think for some, the 1-2 meal day may not be practical . Will be back for more later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquelinejolie View Post
Cathy, that was Mosley that said that, not the interviewer - she thought she was doing fine with the veggies only. Maybe that's why Mosley eats breakfast and dinner on his own program?

I found a source that says that time in the stomach (only, not intestines) is:

Whole milk/hard cheese: 4-5 hours
Fruit: 20-40 minutes
Potatoes: 60 minutes
Fish: 30-60 minutes
Beef: 3-4 hours
Pork: 4.5-5 hours
Chicken: 1.5-2 hours

There was no mention of whether the meats had skin, fat or what method of cooking. I really hate being hungry. And then of course, things would move into the intestines for further digestion. About 6-8 hours to move through stomach and small intestine on to the large intestine for further digestion. Elimination begins after 24 hours but digestion is finished before that.

I know Brad Pilon (Eat Stop Eat) has done a ton of research on this and his method goes for 24 hours. But bodybuilders on forums I frequent think his method is ridiculous and catabolic...

I think if we go back to the ADF study and see that women on that protocol could go for 16 hours (8 pm at the latest to noon the next day and then 12-2 p.m. to 6-8 a.m. - so 18 hours minimum - and that's after a meal of under 700 calories so much less than you would eat) and apparently maintain and even build muscle - with NO extra (if any) training (on 75 g of protein and the higher the fat, the better) - that's good enough for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquelinejolie View Post
Seeds - Sunflower, pumpkin, pepita, sesame - 2 hours.
Nuts - Almonds, filberts, peanuts (raw), cashews, brazil, walnuts, pecans etc. - 2 1/2 to 3 hours
Skim milk, cottage or low fat pot cheese or ricotta - 90 min.
whole milk cottage cheese - 120 min.
whole milk hard cheese - 4 to 5 hours
Egg yolk - 30 min.
Whole egg - 45 min.

I would have thought eggs were longer??

Gives some guidance too as to when to train - generally it's a no-no to train at the same time your body is trying to digest food (leads to cramping etc. in some people).
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.W. View Post
Now here is a guy who advocates having some 0 protein days. His hypothisis is that
during out day by day life some of our proteins get damaged and may end up just being
garbage in our cells interfering with normal functioning. But on a day that we have close to 0 protein our bodies may preform a type of housekeeping called angophaty and
this can be a verry good thing.


Protein Cycling Diet – proteincyclingdiet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
We had some good conversations about this here Losing Weight While Preserving Lean Body Mass

And here My body fat assessment (SlowSure)

I don't do IF or JUDDD, I do Atkins with a nod toward NK, but preserving my LBM while losing excess fat is my goal. No matter what else I eat, I try to eat enough protein every day. I don't always succeed, but I try. According to Dr. Phinney (who co-wrote the most recent Atkins book, and several NK books), muscle loss can occur within a day of not eating enough protein (can't remember where he said that, perhaps the Jimmy Moore podcast?).

I get my body fat tested hydrostatically a few times per year to make sure that I'm on track, and so far, I've been able to keep all but ~0.5 lbs of LBM, while losing over 50 lbs of fat.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
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Was he doing a bulk and cut though? Like 2-4 weeks straight overeating and then 2-4 weeks on a calorie deficit? Or was he doing an every other day thing? Logically, I think it's possible to do it EOD and work out well. I've been slack on this and should test it out properly.

It would probably be best if you timed your workouts around when you were eating (an UD) - which is great incentive to lift heavy things: If you work out, you get to - no, HAVE TO go eat a lot. Go forth and feed your muscles! Woohoo! My only concern would be that sometimes when/what you grow doesn't happen until some time later. If you didn't have enough food at whenever that upper time limit was, it might not happen, KWIM? Man, I hate wasting effort.
I'm not sure, but it seems like I did read that he did the weeks of over-eating, then weeks of calorie deficit. I am not anywhere near as knowledgable as you seem to be about weight lifting. I don't know if I want to get that scientific about it, so I'll just do my little dumbbells a few times a week and hope it helps me build some LBM.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:55 PM   #55
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I'm still confused on the proper amount of protein to consume daily. I looked at two different sites that had horribly different numbers. One would have me eating a minimum of 70 grams daily, and the other would have me eating a minimum of 150 grams daily. Those were both based on a sedentary, healthy individual, not trying to bulk/cut.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:49 AM   #56
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I'm still confused on the proper amount of protein to consume daily. I looked at two different sites that had horribly different numbers. One would have me eating a minimum of 70 grams daily, and the other would have me eating a minimum of 150 grams daily. Those were both based on a sedentary, healthy individual, not trying to bulk/cut.
I'd say there's no one whose advice I would trust more than Lyle McDonald on this (especially since he wrote "The Protein Book"). In his post "Protein Intake While Dieting – Q&A" on his site, BodyRecomposition, he advises:
With regards dieting specifically, this was a topic of much study in the 60′s and 70′s as researchers started looking past the simple issue of weight loss and into that of changes in body composition; the goal moved from weight loss per se to that of generating fat loss while minimizing lean body mass and muscle mass loss.

After much toing and froing and research had been done it was eventually found that a protein intake of about 1.5 g/kg of lean body mass (LBM; note that researchers actually used Ideal Body Weight but this is a rough proxy for LBM) was necessary to spare LBM losses in a non-training obese individual consuming low calories.
That works out to about 75g or so per day for an average woman. Maybe a little less if you weren't dieting, but I doubt it would be much less.

One study I looked at showed almost the same LBM loss as fat loss with ADF (complete fasting). See figure 1 in "Alternate-day fasting in nonobese subjects: effects on body weight, body composition, and energy metabolism."

In this study: "The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomised trial in young overweight women", the ADF-ers were given 50g (of skim milk) a day on fasting days and it looks like 80% of their weight loss was fat, 20% was LBM. Doesn't look like the ADF-ers on that lost less LBM than the regular calorie restricted people.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:54 AM   #57
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Thanks, JJ. With all the discrepancies, I think I'll go with that "average" given and just aim for somewhere around 75g per day. I've been getting fairly close on DDs (55-70) but UDs have been no more than that, so it's something I think I'll pay more attention to.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:15 AM   #58
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JJ, thanks for sharing your information and making it easy to understand. I love understanding how all this works, but am in no way prepared to examine the studies like you do. I really appreciate your knowledge!

I'm going to work on getting close to 75g too. DDs may be a little rough but UDs should mostly be no problem.

I'm just wondering if 75g/day is what we should be shooting for, since we are ADFing should we shoot for that as an average. Meaning if we get less on DDs should we try to make up for it on UDs, kind of like we do with our calories?
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:47 AM   #59
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Carol, I don't really know on the average thing. I was thinking about that ADF study that K.V. did where the participants gained LBM, and one thing that they did differently that most of us don't here was eat at 125% of maintenance calories on their UD's and fairly high fat (I'm also guessing they didn't pass out vodka gimlets or wine in the study).

3300 calories like they were eating on UD's is a LOT of food - it's like a big mac and large order of fries 3 times a day. Even 650 or so in a single meal like they were eating on a DD is quite a bit. Higher fat slows digestive time too.

I don't know about you, but if I eat a big 5 oz (+ bun) hamburger (even w/o fries) for dinner, I'm absolutely not hungry for a good 16+ hours (and have experienced zero hunger all the next day when I've done that). If I do eat something, it's out of habit and not hunger - and so I think the women in the study would have still been digesting and having amino acids / BCAA's going into their systems pretty much all the time. That would allow for a lower calorie / lower protein DD (I think?) That would also allow a greater fasting window for your first meal on a DD.

In Adi's example, if she's doing 3 oz of 10% hamburger on DD's, say 3 times a day, that comes out to about 66 g of protein and ~ 540 calories (not including condiments etc.) Those are some pretty good numbers. So my guess would be that if you had a slower digesting, higher fat meat - and maybe slap some cheese on it - oriented UD dinner, you could go lower (to 50g or so? Maybe 40??) on a DD and be okay. If you decided to quaff half a bottle of wine and a box of thin cakes for UD dinner, it wouldn't play out so well.

I don't know much about autophagy etc. I do know from personal experience that on a diet of ~ 50g low fat protein per day, every day, I lose quit a bit of muscle mass and get soft and squishy (and don't lose as much abdominal fat). On RFL, I ate a bit more than 100g/day, averaged about 600 calories/day and gained a bit of muscle and my abdominal area fat went down really quite dramatically and it stayed down when I went off it. I was in a size smaller jeans on that diet at this same weight that I'm at now.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:19 PM   #60
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You just described how I looked. Soft and squishy. I simply was not eating enough protein on DD's or on UD's. I have it under control now and I am now experimenting with starting the day with pork sausage since that is supposed to take longer than beef to leave the stomach. I have had the most pleasant DD's the past two weeks ever. And maintaining as easily as can be. Plus I am starting to get my energy back. Yea!!! for protein.
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