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Old 07-28-2013, 10:58 AM   #1
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Losing Weight While Preserving Lean Body Mass

With appreciation to Slowsure for bringing this to our attention, I wanted to start a thread for sharing research and personal experiences related to improving body composition (preserving/building muscle mass while losing excess fat stores).

I've been reading that some good ideas for preserving lean body mass while losing weight include:

- resistance training
- adequate protein intake
- avoiding tons of cardio, which may be counterproductive, but intervals (particularly high-intensity interval training or HIIT) are recommended.

My plan is to have my body composition evaluated in August or September, then recheck every 4-6 months until goal, increase protein, add more resistance training, and continue HIIT. I'm going to continue light to moderate cardio, but not overdo it. I'm also going to try to use the highest calorie numbers on which I can lose an average of about 1-2 pounds a week.

I'll start us out with a quote from Mark's Daily Apple (paleo site) about protein:

Quote:
Weight loss involves a caloric deficit (whether arrived at spontaneously or consciously). Unfortunately, caloric deficits rarely discriminate between lean mass and body fat, while most people are interested in losing fat, not muscle/bone/tendon/sinew/organ. Numerous studies show that increasing your protein intake during weight loss will partially offset the lean mass loss that tends to occur. In obese and pre-obese women, a 750 calorie diet with 30% of calories from protein (about 56 grams) preserved more lean mass during weight loss than an 18% protein diet. Another study in women showed that a 1.6 g protein/kg bodyweight (or 0.7 g protein/lb bodyweight) diet led to more weight loss, more fat loss, and less lean mass loss than a 0.8 g protein/kg bodyweight diet. Among dieting athletes, 2.3 g protein/kg bodyweight (or a little over 1 g protein/lb bodyweight) was far superior to 1.0 g protein/kg bodyweight in preserving lean mass. And, although specific protein intake recommendations were not stated, a recent meta-analysis concluded that high-protein weight loss diets help preserve lean mass.
I do not know (and maybe not a lot of research has been done?) about how intermittent fasting affects all of this.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:22 PM   #2
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Thanks for starting this thread. I don't have anything valuable to add at the moment but I"ll be following this one closely.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:43 PM   #3
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I was very struck by SlowSure's post, and it has led me to increase my protein on Down Days so that I am getting a minimum of 40 grams. No plans to be tested (money, don't you know!) but I might start some resistance training at some point.
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:26 PM   #4
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Likewise, thank you for this thread.

My head is still spinning with all of the bits of research that I've read recently. As you specified in your post, the issues seems to be around protein intake and the type of exercise.

I've seen a fair amount about the desirability of modest protein intakes but also research that reports better preservation of muscle mass with higher protein intakes, particularly if women have recently been in weight loss mode or are still losing weight.

I'm making a substantial effort to increase my daily protein intake for now. Approx. 30g x3 a day as part of a meal, and I'll rely on other sources such as vegetables and dairy to top that up. I'm influenced by Donald Layman's research: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...-7075-6-12.pdf (pdf) Dietary Guidelines should reflect new understandings about adult protein needs (Layman also has a good podcast with Jimmy Moore:
#24 All Things Protein (Protein 101) )

Richard David Feinman has a good discussion of protein and Layman's paper (above) on his blog, particularly his post:
The benefit in replacing dietary carbohydrate with protein

Quote:
Nutritionists who study protein think that we need modification of official recommendations for protein consumption. Donald Layman at the University of Illinois has reviewed some of the important research on this question and he came up with several important points:
  • Protein is a critical part of the adult diet...there is a continuing need to repair and remodel muscle and bone
  • Protein needs for adults relate to body weight not,...if you are reducing calories, protein needs to stay high...In choosing a diet, you should establish the grams of protein first.
  • The amount of protein at each meal can be important. Research indicates that an ideal is 30 g of protein per meal although this may not be practical for everybody...
  • Most adults benefit from protein intakes above the minimum RDA (recommended daily allotment) and this is especially true for an aging population with increased risks of poor health....most people will benefit from replacing at lest some carbohydrate in the diet with protein.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:12 PM   #5
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I'll be watching this thread with interest. I've been contemplating doing some heavier weights and less reps to build more LBM. I decided I wouldn't start that until my losing streak has come to an end for the month (crazy I know, but I want those numbers on the scale right now). Then I'll add in the more strenuous weight workout.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:53 PM   #6
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We're both crazy then, Carol, because I thought I'd wait a few days to start my increased strength training until I crack onederland. I am just anticipating that the scale will be a little unpredictable for awhile, and I'd just rather have it be AFTER I get there.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:52 PM   #7
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Losing weight is soooo hard. Eat, don't eat. Exercise, don't exercise. too much protein, not enough...
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:21 PM   #8
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I hope you don't mind if I stick my head in every once in a while, though I don't follow JUDDD. Keeping my LBM while losing excess fat is my biggest focus, so I'm always looking to read and learn more on the topic.

I get my BF% tested hydrostatically about three times per year. I'm currently restricted from exercise thanks to some issues with the MS, so I have to do it all through diet.

I have 154 lbs of LBM to feed, so I eat around 120g of protein/day. I'm not precise with it; it's generally a range from 100-150, with some outliers. My goal is to keep it all, but if I lose no more than 5 lbs of it by the time I get to goal, I'll be ecstatic. So far, so good, I've lost about 0.5 lb, but I have a long way to go, so I can't get complacent.

When I am allowed, I do high intensity strength training: low reps, high weights, slowly and with great precision, to failure. It's challenging, but sessions aren't long, and only a couple of days per week.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
I hope you don't mind if I stick my head in every once in a while, though I don't follow JUDDD. Keeping my LBM while losing excess fat is my biggest focus, so I'm always looking to read and learn more on the topic.
I'd say you're a poster girl for how to maintain LBM while losing fat, if that designation doesn't make you uncomfortable.

It's both fascinating and annoying to me that for all of the 'awareness-raising' about the perils of sarcopenia (age or sedentary-lifestyle related loss of muscle mass) there is negligible hard data on which definitions are grounded. There's a distinct lack of readily-accessible guidance on 'how to maintain LBM during weight loss' despite all of the public health hectoring about people monitoring their weight.

I had to delve into some fairly odd data sets to obtain any information about absolute amounts of lean body mass rather than hand waving, relative definitions of sarcopenia. Even now, I can't be sure that those are wholly relevant data sets but there are no better ones. How can we have so little quality data for such a massive research expenditure.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:21 AM   #10
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I know that I am approaching this wrong, but I too want to wait to do strength training. I would like to lose more weight and when I get close to my ideal weight add lifting and increase my food intake accordingly.
Right now I am focusing on cardio - specifically running because I desperately want to get in shape and the Couch to 5K is the perfect avenue for me to do that right now (free, my gym is outside the front door, and I can go anytime).

I admit though, I am worried about my muscle mass and should probably pick up that kettlebell again in the meantime...

Thanks for keeping this topic front and center. I think it is vital to us all.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:57 AM   #11
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Ok heres IMHO.. I did the whole no exersize while i lost the weight.. and for me while i did this if found my self more and more depressed over how ugly the body became .. Losing fat WILL cause saggy body bags :hystr: I truly thought that if i just lost enough of the fat i would love my body.. wow was i wrong! .. I wish now that i had done my lifting "WHILE" i lost... I am combating the saggys.. With lifting i chose to go heavy right off the bat.. none of this toning crud (that my hubby suggested ).. I am finally after 4 months of at home training seeing positive changes in the shape of my body, The extra muscle also helps burn fat.. you can not go wrong with working out now and losing fat at the same time..I love to look at my nakedness now.. long lean lines in my leggs, definition in my calf's .. and now i have beautiful shoulders and muscles in my arms.. I will forever have wings.. BUT i have discovered that in time.. with many hours of work.. they WILL LESSSEN.. I love what i am doing now for my body.. and she is paying me back 100 fold for working out!
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:03 AM   #12
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Here in the next few weeks i will take some photos and post what i ve been up to.. Dont have any as of yet.. BUt i will make a point of documenting my progress.. just for you folks!! This is not something i cant share with FB..
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:08 AM   #13
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Jrudq, it is so confusing. I don't think cardio is bad. I am continuing to do some cardio, and I think that is OK or even a good thing as long as it's not 2 hours a day, but I'm choosing to add in resistance training also. For increasing muscle mass, though, it looks like cardio is not much help (if not the opposite). Mike has a great graph on how his lean mass was going down but then increased when he started doing weight training: Exercise calorie deficit: can it put you in "starvation mode"?

So, it's all an experiment, and you should of course do what you think is best for you, but what I think about (for me) is whether I want to potentially lose muscle mass and then try to gain it back. If the gym is the issue, there are a lot of muscle building exercises you can do just using your own body weight. Dr. Mercola's website just posted a great video on this recently. The kettlebell is a great idea!

My thinking on this topic is that, while the scale number is what we normally go by, it only measures loss of weight. I want that weight to come in fat, not any of the non-fatty substances like muscle or bone. If the scale goes down two pounds, and only one of those pounds is fat and the other is lean tissue, that is not entirely a good thing and I'm not doing as well as I think I'm doing ... and I'm making it more difficult for myself in the future. So, even though it's going to do funny things to the scale most likely, I'm going to start weight training more intentionally very soon ... BUT (and here's where I'm inconsistent ) I do want to get under 200 first, just because I don't want weight training to be what puts that milestone off any longer.

I was thinking about the good things about muscle:
- looks better (muscle tone)
- helps fill in where fat has gone away so there is less loose skin
- the body burns more calories all the time and so you can eat more
- the improvement in insulin resistance that Slowsure mentioned
- increased strength is helpful and in daily life and could prevent injury

Any others I'm missing?

P.S. Ntombi, please do post here! It's super encouraging that you've been able to maintain your lean mass just with protein since the resistance training is not an option for you very often. I think that is huge for others who can't do weight training.

Last edited by calichris; 07-29-2013 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:19 AM   #14
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Really Kimberly and Christina.

I am determined to get more muscle tone and will begin a program in August. Christina, I totally get wanting to get below 200 first. It's such a mental landmark and just feels so great. I want that for you!

I was telling my brother my plans to start lifting heavier but that I wanted to wait a week or two since I'm losing well. He looked at me like I'm nuts and said "so you'd rather see a number on the scale than look better?" and I told him honestly "Yes". I mean, of course I'd rather look better, but this short period each month when I lose well motivates me for the rest of the month to keep going and working hard. If I lose that, I might not keep going so hard. I don't know.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrudq View Post
I know that I am approaching this wrong, but I too want to wait to do strength training. I would like to lose more weight and when I get close to my ideal weight add lifting and increase my food intake accordingly.
Right now I am focusing on cardio ...
I admit though, I am worried about my muscle mass and should probably pick up that kettlebell again in the meantime...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCarbGal View Post
I am determined to get more muscle tone and will begin a program in August. ...
He looked at me like I'm nuts and said "so you'd rather see a number on the scale than look better?" and I told him honestly "Yes"
I absolutely understand this emotional need to see a weight drop and to have an objective number that is a more readily understood marker of success than resistance training, lifting etc.

I will say, it's substantially easier and more realistic to retain LBM and drop your body fat than to attempt to gain muscle mass, particularly in the presence of a slew of antagonistic hormones from your fat mass/body fat. So, the earlier that you're comfortable with a number and still have a good buffer of LBM between you and your target weight so that you can start strength training, the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlinggirl View Post
I wish now that i had done my lifting "WHILE" i lost.. I love what i am doing now for my body.. and she is paying me back 100 fold for working out!
I wish that I'd done likewise. I'm delighted that you're investing your time and effort in your body and that she's reciprocating.

tbh, I think we tend to be a touch careless about this in Europe. Most data sets indicate that for the 'normal' range of BMI, Europeans tend to be 25% or less body fat where it's been known for some time that people in the US/North America tended to be in the 30%+ body fat range. Even tho' the scanning work that demonstrates the existence of TOFIs (thin on the outside, fat on the inside) was done in the UK, along with the innovative BVI (body volume index), this doesn't seem to have led to anything more than a hectoring tone for Public Health announcements rather than practical guidance.

(I have some references for this and I'll dig them out.)
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
I don't think cardio is bad. I am continuing to do some cardio, and I think that is OK or even a good thing as long as it's not 2 hours a day, but I'm choosing to add in resistance training also. ...
My thinking on this topic is that, while the scale number is what we normally go by, it only measures loss of weight. I want that weight to come in fat, not any of the non-fatty substances like muscle or bone. If the scale goes down two pounds, and only one of those pounds is fat and the other is lean tissue, that is not entirely a good thing and I'm not doing as well as I think I'm doing ... So, even though it's going to do funny things to the scale most likely, I'm going to start weight training more intentionally very soon ... BUT (and here's where I'm inconsistent ) I do want to get under 200 first, just because I don't want weight training to be what puts that milestone off any longer.
Cardio is grand for any number of reasons - CV health, increasing respiratory capacity, even mental health. As you note, it's not noted for being at all helpful for downward trending scales - but that is only one aspect of it.

Ironically, it's probably my relatively high amount of cardio because of all the cycling that I did until quite recently that has helped to maintain my excellent biomarkers, lipid panels, blood sugars etc.

One of the reasons that I hope I'm an outlier in having such a scant amount of lean body mass is that I went from being relatively very active to abruptly sedentary while I recovered from one accident and then had only just recovered from that when I had a major accident and another abrupt return to being very sedentary.

I'd no awareness that I must have been consuming so much of my unused muscle mass and made inroads into my essential muscle mass. However, until one has an assessment, one has no way of knowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
I was thinking about the good things about muscle:
...
Any others I'm missing?
My caveats will be that there are currently multiple definitions for sarcopenic obesity (which is what I have). If you believe the definitions and their health corollaries then a decent muscle and lean body will:
  • reduce inflammation and preserve immune function;
  • reduce likelihood of cancer, Alzheimer's Disease;
  • enable better recovery from injury/infection;
  • improve longevity, mortality (from all causes) and illness-free age;
  • preserve gait, mobility and independence throughout middle and old age.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:13 PM   #17
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Slowsure, I guess I knew about your accidents but didn't focus on the fact that you would have had to go from active to not being able to exercise because of them. That actually makes me think that as you are able to increase your activity levels (although maybe in different ways than before) it seems like you could start reversing that, especially with eating more protein! That is what I am hoping will happen.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:22 PM   #18
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Health Benefits of Weight Training

This is from Wikipedia

Quote:
The benefits of weight training include greater muscular strength, improved muscle tone and appearance, increased endurance and enhanced bone density. Weight lifting and resistance training can also lead to a multitude of medical benefits including increased insulin sensitivity, decreased visceral fat, increased GLUT 4 density, reduced blood pressure, increased HDL cholesterol, decrease LDL cholesterol, decreased triglycerides, increased bone mineral density and improved cardiovascular health.

Many people take up weight training to improve their physical attractiveness. Most men can develop substantial muscles; most women lack the natural testosterone levels to develop substantial muscle mass, but they can develop a firm, "toned" (see below) physique, and they can increase their strength by the same proportion as that achieved by men (but usually from a significantly lower starting point). An individual's genetic make-up dictates the response to weight training stimuli to some extent.

The body's basal metabolic rate increases with increases in muscle mass, which promotes long-term fat loss and helps dieters avoid yo-yo dieting. Moreover, intense workouts elevate metabolism for several hours following the workout, which also promotes fat loss.

Weight training also provides functional benefits. Stronger muscles improve posture, provide better support for joints, and reduce the risk of injury from everyday activities. Older people who take up weight training can prevent some of the loss of muscle tissue that normally accompanies aging—and even regain some functional strength—and by doing so become less frail. They may be able to avoid some types of physical disability. Weight-bearing exercise also helps to prevent osteoporosis. The benefits of weight training for older people have been confirmed by studies of people who began engaging in it even in their 80s and 90s.

For many people in rehabilitation or with an acquired disability, such as following stroke or orthopaedic surgery, strength training for weak muscles is a key factor to optimise recovery. For people with such a health condition, their strength training is likely to need to be designed by an appropriate health professional, such as a physiotherapist.

Stronger muscles improve performance in a variety of sports. Sport-specific training routines are used by many competitors. These often specify that the speed of muscle contraction during weight training should be the same as that of the particular sport.

Though weight training can stimulate the cardiovascular system, many exercise physiologists, based on their observation of maximal oxygen uptake, argue that aerobics training is a better cardiovascular stimulus. Central catheter monitoring during resistance training reveals increased cardiac output, suggesting that strength training shows potential for cardiovascular exercise. However, a 2007 meta-analysis found that, though aerobic training is an effective therapy for heart failure patients, combined aerobic and strength training is ineffective.

One side-effect of any intense exercise is increased levels of dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine, which can help to improve mood and counter feelings of depression.

Weight training has also been shown to benefit dieters as it inhibits lean body mass loss (as opposed to fat loss) when under a caloric deficit. Weight training also strengthens bones, helping to prevent bone loss and osteoporosis. By increasing muscular strength and improving balance, weight training can reduce falls by elderly persons as well.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:49 PM   #19
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I found Brad Pilon's Dexa results startling. He's one of the major names in intermittent fasting and training, author of Eat, Stop, Eat. He has regular Dexa scans to assess his body composition when he's trying out eating plans or different workout routines.

He has a blog post: My Birthday Dexa Scan.
Quote:
The reason this particular scan was interesting is that I just completed almost 7 weeks of no workouts, and no fasting.
For 7 weeks I ate normally – still higher protein, still responsibly, just a little higher than normal and without any fasting. I also did ZERO training. No weights, no body weight stuff, not a single pushup was done in 7 weeks...
Guess what happens when you take almost 7 weeks off from training and fasting?
The Impossible happens…
Why do I say ‘impossible’? you ask… Because common internet knowledge states you can’t build muscle and lose fat at the same time.
One is catabolic and one is anabolic, and apparently, according to common internet knowledge, you can’t be in both anabolic and catabolic at the same time.
Unfortunately this just isn’t true...
I didn’t gain muscle and lose fat, I did the opposite – I gained 5 pounds of fat and lost almost 7 pounds of muscle.
So not the same, but in principle, it still disproved the idea that you can’t be anabolic and catabolic at the same time.
Note, that had he been judging by the scale alone, he'd be showing a 2lb loss overall. (And I think his discussion of anabolic and catabolic in unhelpful in this context but that's by the by.)

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Old 07-29-2013, 12:56 PM   #20
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Ack! What a nightmare.

Also, that "common Internet knowledge" has been debunked over and over again. I don't know anyone who understand basic physiology who believes it.



And thanks for the welcome, everyone.

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:10 PM   #21
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Re: Brad Pilon's Dexa results: WOW. that is scary.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:32 PM   #22
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Holy Moly! That is really scary!

Thanks for the feedback. It is funny, in the past I have NEVER enjoyed cardio, loathed running, and always did circuit training with weights - not heavy, but moderate.
Now, probably when I need it the most - at age 53, I am losing weight and preferring cardio over weights. But, as with so many things, this board and the great feedback has made me rethink my plan. It is going to take some mental adjustment (no I don't want to! Yes, you do. Do I have to? Yes, you do. It will be awful! No it won't!) and in the mean time I will pick up that dang kettlebell. Which is a GREAT cardio and weight workout, BTW. And there are lots of free routines on the internet.

Thanks again!
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:17 AM   #23
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Thanks for posting those Dex scan results! Scary indeed!....and that was coming from a fitness expert...so imagine us mere (fitness) mortals?

This further cements my commitment to strength work and exercise in general during this weight loss, and my planned slow crawl to the finish line with increased resistance training as I get closer to goal.
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Old 07-30-2013, 05:03 AM   #24
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I've been looking through various anthropometric data sets to reverse engineer the numbers to try and work out what level or absolute weight of lean body mass women have in a 'normal' range. The numbers aren't anywhere near ready for publicising more widely as I'd like to check them with some people.

Let's just say that I'm roughly 20-26lbs of lean body mass down on where I'd like to be for this weight (let's not even consider how much LBM I've lost given that this doesn't take into account my previous height before I fractured the long bones). With a fair wind, if nothing went amiss with my life, my stress levels were low, I ate perfectly (whatever that would look like), kept a perfect workout routine, slept regularly and well and was about 20 years younger than I am, I could hope to gain something like that range in 3-5 years time. Realistically, with menopausal hormone changes and disturbed sleep patterns (never mind the mobility issues), I'd need to do something like that to stand still and (at best) gain a much smaller amount. [NB, this refers to muscle mass, not LBM.]

You can read a decent overview of gaining muscle (and the Casey Butt links from there about genetic capacity are worth a glance) at aworkoutroutine, specifically:
How Much Muscle Can You Gain & How Fast Can You Build It?
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Average Natural WOMAN [meaning, younger than menopausal and no testosterone enhancement]: between 0.12 – 0.25 pounds of muscle per week (or about 0.5-1 pound of muscle gained per month).
It is much easier, more plausible and effective to keep the LBM that you already have than to sacrifice it to lose weight and then attempt to regain it. (Or find that you've accidentally lost it and need to rebuild it.)

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Old 07-30-2013, 11:58 PM   #25
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That is really daunting. I knew (and remind myself often) that it is easier to maintain LBM than to rebuild it, and of course it's indescribably easier to lose than to build, but I had no idea it was such a slow process!

And there's simply no alternative.

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Old 07-31-2013, 05:03 AM   #26
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Have a read of the Primal Blueprint.

No Cardio, other than in the pursuit of play. Sprint from time to time and lift heavy things (not necessarily weights).

Cardio in my experience makes you skinny fat, not a good luck.

I've said it on here many times. Kettlebell swing has more effect on the female form than any other exercise I have ever seen.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:11 AM   #27
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I found Brad Pilon's Dexa results startling. He's one of the major names in intermittent fasting and training, author of Eat, Stop, Eat. He has regular Dexa scans to assess his body composition when he's trying out eating plans or different workout routines.

He has a blog post: My Birthday Dexa Scan.
Note, that had he been judging by the scale alone, he'd be showing a 2lb loss overall. (And I think his discussion of anabolic and catabolic in unhelpful in this context but that's by the by.)
Makes total sense, use it or lose it, the body will not hold onto muscle unless it needs it, as it is very calorific ally draining to maintain.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:34 AM   #28
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Here in the next few weeks i will take some photos and post what i ve been up to.. Dont have any as of yet.. BUt i will make a point of documenting my progress.. just for you folks!! This is not something i cant share with FB..
Kimberly, if I read correctly you are working out at home? If so, what weights are you using, and what ones did you start with, etc.? I am interested in starting a program similar to yours. I have a cheapish weight bench and some hand weights, but they are not going to do much more than tone...I will have to drag my bench out of the garage and clean the spider webs.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:34 AM   #29
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I Started with a Bowcross Resistant tubes on a pully system and then added hand weights.. I was shocked that i had a hard time doing arms with a ten pound free weight.. So i started with 3 pound and did 3 sets of 15.. for a week, then i picked up the 5 pound ones and found it a challenge.. did the same 3 sets of 12 only.. they were harder.. started those 2 months after doing the machine.... I now since then am doing my arm lifts with 20 pounds and i do 3 sets.. but.. I do my best to get to 12 and by the third set i work to exhaustion which usually come at or around only like 8 .. they get hard! I still use my Bowflex to work the leggs which i can press 210 pounds with out hurting my knees.. Its really a whole process of starting small, and if you find that you can go on and on and on like 30 or 40 reps then your weight is way to light and will not challenge the muscle..hope this answered your question..
One of the best exerciser for the abs is the dead lift.. and i was doing 3 sets of 10 on those at 70 pounds till i picked it up wrong.. was not thinking and bent at the waist and just grabbed it to move it, and hurt my back.. i am now to scared to pick it up again..

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:00 PM   #30
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You have a 70 lb bar? I *know* I will have trouble with 10 lb weights. I have some lighter ones too, so that's what I will start with as well. Someone posted her husband's website that has some good routines...or said, "google this"...know where it is, anyone?

Thanks, Kimberly!!
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