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Old 07-31-2013, 12:28 PM   #31
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My bar is 7 feet long, and weighs 19.75 plus the 50 pounds i add to it.. its actually 69.75 pounds lol.. but whos counting.. I only use that bar for dead lifting only.. I use hand weights for everything else
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:35 PM   #32
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I hope this isn't too intrusive or a pain, but I'd love to know your actual routine Kimberly. Like exactly what moves you do regularly with your handweights. And how long do you typically spend on a workout each day. Your results are phenomenal, and I'd like to imitate you!
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:47 PM   #33
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I just printed out a workout for myself. Each one is illustrated, and I included a barbell dead lift (since I don't have a bar or free weights). I found a site where you can pick out which lifts/exercises you want to do and add them to a pdf file, which you can save and print.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:31 PM   #34
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{sigh} Now I REALLY have guilt, great! I did weight training the entire time I lost weight THE LAST TIME. I haven't done a blasted thing this time. I keep meaning to, does that count? I have a precor system in my basement that I loved. Unfortunately, after about 8 months of using it religiously, I managed to hurt my shoulder and never restarted afterwards. (brilliant, I know) I need to overcome my fear of re-injury and get on it again! Thanks for the guilt guys, it's needed!

Kimberly, WTG on your routine & new bod girl! W.T.G.!!!
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:22 PM   #35
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Great thread and will have a proper read tomorrow. Am worried about losing strength and muscle mass.

My current lifts are
220lb deadlift / 176lb squat and 92lb bench (my weakest lift). I also do clean and press at 71.5lbs.
I'm not petite but haven't bulked up I have a fair bit of body fat left to lose which is what I am trying to shift some of now. My lifts have pretty much doubled or more in the last year with proper training and I compete as a powerlifter - masters class as I'm over 40.

I'd defo recommend weights even if you do light / high reps it's great for toning you up and making yourself leaner - muscle is leaner and more dense than fat lb for lb.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:54 PM   #36
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Not that I'm worried or anything, but how do you know when you have enough muscle? I mean how do you gain enough muscle for health and fitness, and maintain it without feeling like you should be building more, and lifting heavier weights? I mean, of course, if your purpose is not to gain large amounts of muscle. Do you just keep adding weight ... at what point would I get no stronger and would have to stop adding more weight, or at what point would the weight I'm using be enough to maintain a good LBM?

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:34 PM   #37
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Great questions Cindy. I feel like I am lacking a lot of knowledge in this area and definitely want to learn more. I would like to be able to do this w/o spending a lot more on equipment. I'm fascinated with body weight exercises, but I'm not sure you can really build enough muscle mass doing those. I think maybe investing in a kettlebell may be in the future for me.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
...how do you know when you have enough muscle? I mean how do you gain enough muscle for health and fitness, and maintain it without feeling like you should be building more, and lifting heavier weights?...what point would the weight I'm using be enough to maintain a good LBM?
Crudely: there's a substantial difference between strength gains and muscle mass gains. You can learn to leverage your muscles better with technique and practise, so it's possible for beginners to see good strength gains.

It's actually quite tricky for women to gain muscle mass - which is why it's easier to retain and develop the LBM and muscle mass that you already have rather than try to gain them. Krista Scott-Dixon of Stumptuous was much younger than us when she started training, does judo, grappling and generally has a very active lifestyle.
Quote:
Krista Scott-Dixon, who runs...a weightlifting website, explains that many women have been taught to fear "bulking up" when training with weights. "In our culture, women aren't supposed to be physically strong or powerful, and this idea is still around in 2011. Women are terrified that if they touch a weight, they're going to suddenly turn enormous. People don't understand that you can't develop a bodybuilder's body without years of focused, intense training and huge amounts of drugs."

Scott-Dixon has been training for 15 years and has gained only about 5lb of muscle. But it's enough to make a huge difference: "When you do your first pull-up, or push-up, it's an incredible feeling of accomplishment" [my emphasis. Guardian interview.]
So, I'd think if you can retain the LBM you've got and develop it, then that would be fantastic. I've no idea at what point your menopause will kick in, but I imagine it will be within the next 3 years or so - after which, your hormones become positively unhelpful in the matter or retaining your LBM, far less building muscle.

I think the issue of how much weight will be enough to retain your muscle and LBM will unfold over time, if that makes sense. It seems implausible to predict it now.

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Great questions Cindy...but I'm not sure you can really build enough muscle mass doing [bodyweight exercises]. I think maybe investing in a kettlebell may be in the future for me.
Kettlebells etc. sound grand.

Several women's strength training commenters such as Nia Shanks, Krista Scott-Dixon and Kaleo have bodyweight exercises and recommend them for people who don't have the space/funds for a gym or weights. Particularly in the earlier part of training (and that might be a year or more for some of us, depending on our starting point), it seems you can derive tremendous benefit from bodyweight routines. Especially if you have a decent LBM with which to be moving, lifting and otherwise exerting your total body weight.

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Old 07-31-2013, 11:43 PM   #39
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Five pounds in fifteen years?!
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:33 AM   #40
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Here's my next question.

I've heard over and over that losing too quickly will lead to loss of LBM/FFM, not just fat. I don't know if the rate is constant for everyone, but what I've always heard was anything over 2 lbs/1kg week could endanger LBM.


Though I am averaging just under 1.6 lbs per week, I lose scale weight in a sporadic way, meaning I may stay the same for a couple of weeks and then lose a pound a day for several days in a row. Or bounce around the same weight for a couple of months, and then lose several pounds over the course of a couple of weeks. Because I lose inches during those bouncy bouncy times, I assume I'm losing fat throughout, with water being retained in my fat cells for a while. But it still means that my rate is all over the place, though my average is in line with what the "experts" recommend.

That's a bit confusing. I have the benefit of the BF% tests to reassure me that I'm losing fat, not muscle, but I wonder if that 1.5-2lbs/week thing is based on any clear-cut science, or yet another trope that gets repeated until we all "know" it.


This is why I don't trust the scale alone.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:33 AM   #41
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Friends, this informative and knowledgeable discussion is so important. I can't begin to thank all of you, most especially Slow Sure, for bringing this to the forefront.

How do we go about requesting that this thread be turned into a sticky?

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Old 08-01-2013, 06:29 AM   #42
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I did a body conditioning class yesterday. If you want to find out how out of shape you are......My body hurts soooo bad today. Goes to show yoi that I need to go back..And I thought I was exercising. See what I know
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:29 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sterlinggirl View Post
Ok heres IMHO.. I did the whole no exersize while i lost the weight.. and for me while i did this if found my self more and more depressed over how ugly the body became .. Losing fat WILL cause saggy body bags :hystr: I truly thought that if i just lost enough of the fat i would love my body.. wow was i wrong! .. I wish now that i had done my lifting "WHILE" i lost... I am combating the saggys.. With lifting i chose to go heavy right off the bat.. none of this toning crud (that my hubby suggested ).. I am finally after 4 months of at home training seeing positive changes in the shape of my body, The extra muscle also helps burn fat.. you can not go wrong with working out now and losing fat at the same time..I love to look at my nakedness now.. long lean lines in my leggs, definition in my calf's .. and now i have beautiful shoulders and muscles in my arms.. I will forever have wings.. BUT i have discovered that in time.. with many hours of work.. they WILL LESSSEN.. I love what i am doing now for my body.. and she is paying me back 100 fold for working out!
Thanks for sharing how you have made peace with your "wings."

After losing 75 pounds, the last 35 with HCG, and no strength training or cardio as I was shrinking, I was so sad to contemplate the sag.

I am fortunate to be working with a trainer to develop a program of HIIT and strength training to help my BMI and LBM ratios improve. I appreciate hearing how you have used some of the same successfully.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:48 AM   #44
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Slow, I did know that bulking up would be difficult and probably impossible for me, without actually training like mad and eating specific foods. I have never been afraid of that, as I knew that weight training doesn't really do that to most women. My question was, when do you stop lifting heavier and heavier weight and can just maintain with the same routine? I know you don't have the answers, but it's a question that came to my mind. I certainly won't need to find out for a very long time either, lol.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:35 AM   #45
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Starting today

I mentioned I was waiting to start lifting heavier until my losing streak ended. I think it has, plus I'm going into a two-day free day celebration tomorrow, so I'll probably pop up a few pounds anyway. So I'm going to start today. The heaviest weights I have are 8 lbs, but they feel HEAVY to me, so I'll start there. Wish me luck!
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:36 AM   #46
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Good luck LCG!!!
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:41 AM   #47
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even with eating for muscle growth as females it'll be slow for us, REALLY slow, we need testosterone to 'bulk' so please just go for strength gains if you want to see numbers on the bar, or low weight high reps for toning up the body. I do do some assistance work to tone up but mainly strength.

some great info on this thread.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:13 AM   #48
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I want to do as little as possible to get the best results. How's that, lol. My question was worded in a way that maybe seemed like I wanted to know how to bulk up or get super strong, but what I really wanted to know is what's the minimum amount required to keep LBM, or small gains in strength and definition.
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:32 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
I've heard over and over that losing too quickly will lead to loss of LBM/FFM, not just fat. I don't know if the rate is constant for everyone, but what I've always heard was anything over 2 lbs/1kg week could endanger LBM.
...I wonder if that 1.5-2lbs/week thing is based on any clear-cut science, or yet another trope that gets repeated until we all "know" it.
Unsurprisingly, having had a scamper through some literature and consulted a chum who is a dietitian, there isn't a rock solid evidence base for the 2lbs a week.

But...

Typically, it seems that dietitans and other HCPs work off the assumption that if someone is voluntarily shedding >2lbs a week, depending on their starting weight, and where they are (how many weeks into the programme), they start suspecting meal skipping, purging or eating disorders if there's a recurrent pattern of such losses.

They suspect that if people are skipping meals, they're doing it in an even-handed manner (so to speak) and proportionately reducing all of their macros and therefore have insufficient protein to maintain their muscle (particularly if overall intake is very low and gluconeogenesis is grabbing dietary protein).

Dietitians also have some concerns about the impact of some restrictive diets and rapid losses on gut wall integrity and the more that they learn about the influence of gut flora etc., the more they fret about possible systemic inflammation being set up for the long term and even low-grade system endotoxins.

The one 'validated by medical records but no-one has a wholly satisfactory explanation for it' phenomenon that is known to accompany rapid weight loss (ie >2lb a week, sustained) is the occurrence of gall stones. It's common enough to cause substantial medical problems and have a reasonably high surgical outcome.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:32 PM   #50
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The possibility of gallstones has scared me throughout this journey. I guess since I've gotten this far without any problems, I've stopped worrying so much about it, but it could still happen I'm sure. Of course, I certainly haven't been losing at a rate >2 pounds per week (other than my crazy once a month week where I lose all my weight each month!).

I've had kidney stones and the pain was the worst I've ever experienced. I thought it might have been due to Atkinsing for so long, but doctor said no. He said it was more likely to be the hard water we have here in AZ. Direct quote "You know all that lime scale buildup you get on your fixtures? It's the same inside you." YUCK!
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:43 PM   #51
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Interesting. I never once thought about gallstones.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:09 PM   #52
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just to throw a spanner in the works, a friend who is a physician told me that to some degree (obvs not toooo much) we all have to accept loss of muscle mass when we lose weight--and that although lots of muscle/bone mass is optimal, you don't need as much muscle mass when you are smaller. I understand how important it is to preserve muscle, and believe you me, I work out 5-7 times a week, so I am committed to doing what I can, but her take on it was that we have to accept some loss of mass as a part of the "deconstruction" process. Thoughts?
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:43 PM   #53
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Well, if that is true, which I'm sure that it is, ouizoid, then the only alternative is to stay fat. Surely, losing weight regardless of losing some muscle mass is better than obesity. A broken hip or osteoperosis is not something anyone would want, but it's better than a heart attack. Ideally, we wouldn't have ever gained the weight.
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Old 08-01-2013, 07:06 PM   #54
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Well, that can be taken two ways, depending on your goal.

My goal is to keep my muscle mass and get into a healthy BF percentage. That means I'll still be "overweight," according to BMI charts. That doesn't matter to me.

If my goal was to get down to what BMI says is "healthy," I would have to lose muscle as well. That's silly, IMO. I don't need to be 140 pounds to be healthy, and why would I sacrifice the metabolism and health benefits of more muscle?

She's correct that simply walking and living won't require as much muscle as with a larger body, but that's what workouts are for. As long as you work to maintain it, and feed it appropriately, there's no reason to lose much as you lose excess fat.

That being said, it's almost inevitable that you'll lose at least a tiny bit. lost half a pound of muscle (and 23.5 lbs of fat) in the five months between my latest tests is pretty much the best one can hope for. I want to keep that loss under five pounds total by the time I get to goal. That would make me ecstatic.

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Old 08-01-2013, 07:12 PM   #55
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Came across this article in the NYTimes yesterday, thought it was interesting, and applicable to our conversation.

PHYS ED JULY 31, 2013, 12:01 AM
How Exercise Changes Fat and Muscle Cells
By GRETCHEN REYNOLDS

Exercise promotes health, reducing most people’s risks of developing diabetes and growing obese. But just how, at a cellular level, exercise performs this beneficial magic — what physiological steps are involved and in what order — remains mysterious to a surprising degree.

Several striking new studies, however, provide some clarity by showing that exercise seems able to drastically alter how genes operate.

Genes are, of course, not static. They turn on or off, depending on what biochemical signals they receive from elsewhere in the body. When they are turned on, genes express various proteins that, in turn, prompt a range of physiological actions in the body.

One powerful means of affecting gene activity involves a process called methylation, in which methyl groups, a cluster of carbon and hydrogen atoms, attach to the outside of a gene and make it easier or harder for that gene to receive and respond to messages from the body. In this way, the behavior of the gene is changed, but not the fundamental structure of the gene itself. Remarkably, these methylation patterns can be passed on to offspring – a phenomenon known as epigenetics.

What is particularly fascinating about the methylation process is that it seems to be driven largely by how you live your life. Many recent studies have found that diet, for instance, notably affects the methylation of genes, and scientists working in this area suspect that differing genetic methylation patterns resulting from differing diets may partly determine whether someone develops diabetes and other metabolic diseases.

But the role of physical activity in gene methylation has been poorly understood, even though exercise, like diet, greatly changes the body. So several groups of scientists recently set out to determine what working out does to the exterior of our genes.

The answer, their recently published results show, is plenty.

Of the new studies, perhaps the most tantalizing, conducted principally by researchers affiliated with the Lund University Diabetes Centre in Sweden and published last month in PLoS One, began by recruiting several dozen sedentary but generally healthy adult Swedish men and sucking out some of their fat cells. Using recently developed molecular techniques, the researchers mapped the existing methylation patterns on the DNA within those cells. They also measured the men’s body composition, aerobic capacity, waist circumference, blood pressure, cholesterol levels and similar markers of health and fitness.

Then they asked the men to start working out. Under the guidance of a trainer, the volunteers began attending hourlong spinning or aerobics classes approximately twice a week for six months. By the end of that time, the men had shed fat and inches around their waists, increased their endurance and improved their blood pressure and cholesterol profiles.

Less obviously, but perhaps even more consequentially, they also had altered the methylation pattern of many of the genes in their fat cells. In fact, more than 17,900 individual locations on 7,663 separate genes in the fat cells now displayed changed methylation patterns. In most cases, the genes had become more methylated, but some had fewer methyl groups attached. Both situations affect how those genes express proteins.

The genes showing the greatest change in methylation also tended to be those that had been previously identified as playing some role in fat storage and the risk for developing diabetes or obesity.

“Our data suggest that exercise may affect the risk for Type 2 diabetes and obesity by changing DNA methylation of those genes,” says Charlotte Ling, an associate professor at Lund University and senior author of the study.

Meanwhile, other studies have found that exercise has an equally profound effect on DNA methylation within human muscle cells, even after a single workout.

To reach that conclusion, scientists from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm and other institutions took muscle biopsies from a group of sedentary men and women and mapped their muscle cell’s methylation patterns. They then had the volunteers ride stationary bicycles until they had burned about 400 calories. Some rode strenuously, others more easily.

Afterward, a second muscle biopsy showed that DNA methylation patterns in the muscle cells were already changing after that lone workout, with some genes gaining methyl groups and some losing them. Several of the genes most altered, as in the fat cell study, are known to produce proteins that affect the body’s metabolism, including the risk for diabetes and obesity.

Interestingly, the muscle cell methylation changes were far more pronounced among the volunteers who had ridden vigorously than in those who had pedaled more gently, even though their total energy output was the same.

The overarching implication of the study’s findings, says Juleen Zierath, a professor of integrative physiology at the Karolinska Institute and senior author of the study, is that DNA methylation changes are probably “one of the earliest adaptations to exercise” and drive the bodily changes that follow.

Of course, the intricacies of that bogglingly complex process have yet to be fully teased out. Scientists do not know, for instance, whether exercise-induced methylation changes linger if someone becomes sedentary, or if resistance training has similar effects on the behavior of genes. Nor is it known whether these changes might be passed on from one generation to the next. But already it is clear, Dr. Ling says, that these new findings “are additional proof of the robust effect exercise can have on the human body, even at the level of our DNA.”
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Old 08-01-2013, 07:55 PM   #56
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I read that article today on Reddit Ntombi--so interesting about the changes in methylation, and yet another reason to keep working out
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Old 08-02-2013, 04:37 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
... a friend who is a physician told me that to some degree (obvs not toooo much) we all have to accept loss of muscle mass when we lose weight--and that although lots of muscle/bone mass is optimal, you don't need as much muscle mass when you are smaller. ...Thoughts?
I think this is because of mass to support our fat.

We have to have the muscles to carry it around, we have to have the blood vessels to carry things in and out, etc. I don't mind losing THAT mass.

I think of it as tearing down the abandoned strip malls after the stores have emptied out. Let the natural prairie take over, rather than having empty and useless buildings hanging about. After all, I'm NOT planning on filling them up again.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:26 PM   #58
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First strength training of the month (finally!), and I added more weight than I have in the past, to muscle failure, and I feel all shaky now, but that's a good thing. It's a down day so I also had protein powder after. It sometimes seems "expensive" on a DD for 120 calories, but at least it is chocolate flavor. (I looked for the highest protein for the calories they had at the store).
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:07 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
First strength training of the month (finally!), and I added more weight than I have in the past, to muscle failure, and I feel all shaky now, but that's a good thing. It's a down day so I also had protein powder after. It sometimes seems "expensive" on a DD for 120 calories, but at least it is chocolate flavor. (I looked for the highest protein for the calories they had at the store).
I just ordered some sample packets of Trutein. It seems a good protein/calorie bargain. I'll let you know how it is. I think it ranged from 115-130 calories and 20-30 grams of protein, depending on the flavor.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:25 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by LoCarbGal View Post
The possibility of gallstones has scared me throughout this journey. I guess since I've gotten this far without any problems, I've stopped worrying so much about it, but it could still happen I'm sure. Of course, I certainly haven't been losing at a rate >2 pounds per week (other than my crazy once a month week where I lose all my weight each month!).

I've had kidney stones and the pain was the worst I've ever experienced. I thought it might have been due to Atkinsing for so long, but doctor said no. He said it was more likely to be the hard water we have here in AZ. Direct quote "You know all that lime scale buildup you get on your fixtures? It's the same inside you." YUCK!
I've had gallstones twice (while losing weight really quickly after the birth of both of my kids - not sure why it happened those times, because I've lost weight quickly before and not had them - ie. first time on Scarsdale, I lost 22 pounds in the first 2 week round. Yikes, must have been bloated!) Anyhoo, I have a special interest in gallstones since I did a cleanse to get rid of them and it wasn't pleasant - but better than surgery. Drinking olive oil and grapefruit juice is nasty.

OK, I looked up one of the studies and the VLCD w/o fat (535 cal, 3g fat) caused gallstone issues in 54.5% of the people but with the "high fat" (577 cal, 12.2g fat regimen), none of them did. I have read of gallstones occurring in people with other low cal/long term diets however (ie I think this is a frequent issue with bypass surgery), but they're on the diet for weeks or months without a break/fattier meal. Maybe it's a license to eat chicken wings or baby back ribs once a week? Or... salad with olive oil and vinegar dressing I guess.
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