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Old 07-21-2013, 08:57 PM   #61
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I don't know either, especially as it pertains to IF or AED. I haven't done any research on it, as it doesn't fit into my WOE.

120g of protein is a lot, unless you have significant muscle mass. I happen to have a body that has always had a lot of muscle mass, so I'm working to peel away the fat blanket.
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:50 PM   #62
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Just as a general comment, I like Dr Adel Andro's Suppversity (blog) work and commentary on weight loss, exercise science etc. Searching for

suppversity protein weight loss

should yield some interesting information. He reviews many papers and research studies. Time after time, as he recently summarised:
Quote:
There are very few principles I believe are set in stone and valid regardless of your age (maybe not for toddlers), your training goals and your nutritional "orientation" (paleo, low carber, low fat eater, or whatever), and among these the "Have at least 30g of quality protein (eggs, meats, dairy, fish, etc.) with every major meal" (this assumes you eat 3meals+ per day) probably is king. It is the recipe to success and I actually don't feel as if it was necessary to convince you of the advantages this high(er) protein intake will have on your physique and - although the medical establishment is still reluctant to admit that - your health, as well.
Several studies (that, admittedly, tend to be much shorter than the timescales on this board) indicate that during weight loss, people's protein needs may rise. Overall:
Quote:
[Dr Andro's] recommendation [is] to stick to a 1.5g/kg-2.0g/kg (per total body mass) protein intake from quality protein sources, to discount the additional protein you will be getting from "low protein food"
Notionally, the genetic influence of ADF/EOD or forms of intermittent fasting should make people more efficient at recycling protein so this should cover smaller deficits (particular on the DD), but, as I mentioned elsewhere, I just don't know. And, I don't know if there's a group of people who will be non-responders to this genetic modification.

Last edited by SlowSure; 07-21-2013 at 10:52 PM..
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:23 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
Mark's Daily Apple recommends a gram of protein for each pound of lean body mass, which seems logical to me?

ETA: This article recommends 1.2 g per kilogram of body weight and a positive energy balance (uh oh).

How should I eat to build muscle mass? - CNN.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
Oops! I knew that was too easy to be true. Apparently there are 7 g protein in 1 oz cooked meat, so I would need almost 16 ounces (!) for the 1.2 g per lb calculation.
By the *** recommendation, I would need 77g of protein a day, I would sincerely hope that you have more LBM and that you'd need more than that.

To maintain/build muscle mass at the 1.2g per kg overall body mass level, you would be looking for 112g protein overall (which fits in with Dr Andro's blanket recommendation of 90g, with the extra 22g or so coming from vegetables and other sources).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmietoo View Post
I would need almost 4 protein shakes per day to get to the maintenance requirement of 98 grams of protein, or 500 calories without a spoonful of anything else. That is just to maintain, not gain or lose.

As a result, that's why I was reviewing pumping up exercise to raise the DD calorie allotment per the Johnson calculator as well as looking at the other percentages for weight loss.

It will do no good to lose significant quantities of muscle by over restricting protein while JUDDDing...

This is a very good lesson, though, for all of us, to be very mindful of our protein consumption and making sure that it is adequate as we continue on.

I wonder what the net effect would be if we got our protein on DD's at close to maintenance and upped it on UD's to the 1.2 for muscle building?
My difficulty is that I've no idea if I made things better or worse because I didn't have an assessment when I began. However, I've never been particularly 'weedy' and although I've been a bit less active than I used to be, I'm more active than most people I know (sadly).

At your present weight, you will almost certainly have a decent amount of LBM to preserve if you can keep it while shedding what Ntombi so charmingly styles as 'the fat blanket'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
Those higher protein needs are for body builders though and won't really help you keep your LBM if you aren't also strength training, if I'm not mistaken. What would a moderate to light exerciser need? In order not to lose LBM? To be honest, I have a tendancy to glaze over when reading technical jargon, so could someone be so kind as to tell me what percentage (or exactly) how much I would need at 177 lbs?
You're 80.45kg, so at 0.8 g/kg, that's approx 65g, at 1.2g/kg it's 97g or nicely within Dr Andro's recommendation. As per Ntombi, it seems more straightforward to pick a range for a couple of items (here, say your protein and carb intake) and then make up the difference between that and your daily kcal allowance with other suitable foods.
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:31 AM   #64
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I'm right there with you in wishing you had been tested a while ago. I hope more people here who are actively losing weight will get tested so that we can get a better sample size. I wonder if there really is a difference in protein needs with JUDDD.

Beyond the theories and what-ifs, what is your plan now that you've had a chance to process the results?

On a personal note, I want to thank you for sharing. My stepmom, who is small-boned and white (about 30 lbs overweight and with little muscle tone), has stopped eating many foods, thanks to chronic stomach issues. I didn't realize until today that she has stopped eating all meat but the occasional chicken portion. Thanks to this thread, protein needs were foremost in my mind, and I took the opportunity to talk to her about insuring that she gets adequate daily protein. It wasn't even on her radar, so we had a good conversation, and she will now make sure to incorporate stomach-friendly foods with protein at each meal. She already has the beginning stages of osteoporosis, so this is crucial. Thanks.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:32 AM   #65
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SlowSure, what a nasty shock! There doesn't seem anywhere on your lovely slim waistline that you could be harbouring any visceral fat!

I'm 5'2" and weigh about the same as you. However, I'm mostly a couch potato, due to health problems. So I definitely lack muscles.

Your stats and high activity levels would suggest that I must be composed of about 99% fat!
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:53 AM   #66
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As a general note, anybody who is diabetic or pre-diabetic, or has kidney or similar problems is probably aware that they need to be mindful of their protein intake.

To be irritatingly OTOH, the likes of Dr Ron Rosedale amongst others do stress that they consider general protein intake to be too high. One overview of Rosedale's take on the matter is his lecture which is transcribed at Me and My Diabetes and covers the topic of protein intake as a promoter of metabolic disease and its role in diabetes management.
Ron Rosedale – Protein: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

In Rosedale's experience:
Quote:
we know that if you restrict amino acids, your body goes into an amino acid conservation mode...

What is high protein. You can go to a lot of textbooks that talk about .6 grams per kilogram. But one study that I think is very interesting . . . You can get into a ballpark. When you talk about 2 to 3 grams of protein per kilogram of lean body mass, that is certainly too much protein...

A high protein intake has endocrine effects such as it increases insulin, increases IGF, and we know these hormones increase the rate of aging...

So what’s high. Certainly above 1 gram per kilogram of lean mass is probably high.

Most people, I’ll put on .7 or .75 grams per kilogram of lean body mass.

But if I’ve got a diabetic, and I really want to reverse their aging, which means reverse their diabetes, because diabetis is a model of aging, I’ll put them down to .5 or .6 grams per kilogram of lean body mass per day.
So, simplifying the calculation, I've got 35kg of lean body mass. Rosedale would argue that above 35g of protein per day would be high. He'd recommend 24-26g of protein a day for me in general, but, if I were diabetic, he's recommend 17-21g per day.

What's not clear to me is if Rosedale et al have a minimum notional amount of lbm in mind but having read a piece and some comments on Norah Gedgaudas' blog Primal Body, Primal Mind
Protein: How Much Is Too Much?
it seems that they do advocate that 45-56g RDA amount of protein per day is probably too high for people. I've no idea what their response would be to the studies that indicate better preservation of lbm at higher intakes of protein.

Overall, from their perspective, I suppose my having a mere 35kg of lbm wouldn't matter if I weighed 45kg or less as that would put me at 22% body fat. However, I think my chances of that would be non-existent in the general scheme of things (barring illness) as both at my previous and current height, I'm large-framed if you judge by wrist/elbow measurement etc.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:56 AM   #67
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I took a look around the protein calculation support area on Dr Rosedale's site and in response to a reader's question
which protein amount
the support staff answered:
Quote:
Ideally, you want one gram of protein per day (split evenly throughout each meal) for every kilo of 'lean' body mass (that is, your body weight minus all the fat, remember we all need some fat). The easiest way to calculate your recommended protein intake is to imagine your ideal body weight in kilograms and consume roughly one gram per minus 10%. For example, if you are a woman who is 5.4 ft (165 centimeters) tall, your ‘ideal’ weight would likely be in the neighborhood of 110 lbs (50 kilograms). Thus, your protein intake per day should be somewhere around the 50g - 10% = 45 grams of protein, split approximately evenly between meals. This is her daily recommendation of protein, in grams. She can add 5 grams if she exercises or is unusually muscular, or pregnant.
Unsurprisingly, there have been several discussions of protein intake here on LCF: e.g., Eat less protein? Is too much protein bad for you?
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:13 AM   #68
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I wonder how he came to the conclusion of 110 for a woman at 5'4. I weighed that in junior high, maybe close to that throughout high school...115 in my early 20s. I believe I would be extremely tiny at that weight, and also that it would be next to impossible to get there. That is another conversation altogether though, lol. You notice I zoomed in on the "ideal" weight immediately, and not the protein intake. Oops, but thank you everyone for your input. I had not considered protein intake, as I had always heard that we get an adequate to over-abundance of protein with "normal" eating. I'm going to try two protein shakes today on my DD.
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:20 AM   #69
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I weighed 115lbs when I was 16!
I had a 24" waist and I'm pretty sure there was not much fat to spare!
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:22 AM   #70
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Slowsure - this must be so frustrating for you! I have nothing to add to what's already been said but I wanted to show my support. You have been very successful in weight loss and I have no doubt that you will be successful in body fat loss as well. Now that you know what you're dealing with, you can attack with it with everything you've got. *hugs!*
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:27 AM   #71
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I'm so confused! Somewhere recently I read that one should aim for 1g of protein per pound of LBM. I went to Fat2FitRadio and entered my measurements, weight, height, age, etc. and it told me my BF% is around 27 and my LBM is 108 pounds (roughly 49 kilos), so I've been shooting for 108g of protein per day. That number has been pretty hard for me to reach while getting a pretty decently well rounded diet (plus cocktails).

I average, when left to my own devices without thinking about protein, between 40-70g per day. I'm removing fasting days from the equation, since I am not currently fasting, but when I was, those days were more along the lines of 20g of protein, if that.

If I put my ideal weight at 139 pounds (arbitrarily), my weight in kilos would be roughly 63. If I do the ideal weight - 10%, I'm looking at around 57g of protein per day.

It's all so much to think about. I don't want to lose LBM, but I don't want to over-protein-ate (I made that up).
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:28 PM   #72
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I tell you something, I am going to choose the 'ignorance is bliss' approach to this, and bury my head in the sand.

I fear I may be a bit like you Slow...
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:59 PM   #73
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it is scary. I am one of the peeps who gains weight on too much protein. Neoglucogenesis or the like. But if you lose lbm, that's no good either! Maybe denial is best (said the shrink wisely, lol).
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:38 PM   #74
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Yup.
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:43 PM   #75
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:50 PM   #76
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Quote:
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I tell you something, I am going to choose the 'ignorance is bliss' approach to this, and bury my head in the sand.

I fear I may be a bit like you Slow...
I'm kinda doing the ostrage thing myself. I think I'm totally what they have termed " skinny fat". I fear I have so little lean muscle mass, but I just don't think I have the mental wear with all to focus on this right now. I'm exercising daily, but mostly cardio and mild cardio at that. My arthritic right elbow has been paining me, so even my resistance bands have been out. I have protein powder and may try adding some to my morning coffee. I'm not gonna be one who can drink a protein shake on a regular basis, but I've had a low UD so maybe I'll try a small one tonight... Hum... Yuck... I'm not making any promises.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:07 AM   #77
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If all health markers (BP, blood sugar, RPR, etc) show you to be in excellent health, you are physically fit, flexible and feel very well, maybe it's not you -- maybe the paradigm is wrong. Perhaps, as we age, women are healthier with a higher body fat percentage . IIRC there have been a couple of studies reporting people in the overweight category living the longest. I am not saying that is definitive proof of anything, but I am saying I don't think the book has been completely written on the subject yet.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:32 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kissa View Post
I tell you something, I am going to choose the 'ignorance is bliss' approach to this, and bury my head in the sand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
it is scary. ...But if you lose lbm, that's no good either! Maybe denial is best (said the shrink wisely, lol).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
I'm kinda doing the ostrage thing myself. I think I'm totally what they have termed " skinny fat". I fear I have so little lean muscle mass
I would hope that no-one else would be in the 'normal weight morbidly obese' category - there was only 1 other woman like that in the 875 in the Shah and Braverman study that I referred to earlier (figure 1).

There were a fair number in the (BMI) overweight (body fat) morbidly obese category and some who are in the (BMI) obese (body fat) super obese category.

If people can, I wonder if it's worth getting an assessment so that there is a way of monitoring both the bone mass (useful as women head into peri-menopause or pass through it) and muscle mass. This would be particularly useful to people who are in the process of losing their body fat and might want to pay special attention to preserving the lean body mass.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:36 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macci View Post
If all health markers (BP, blood sugar, RPR, etc) show you to be in excellent health, you are physically fit, flexible and feel very well, maybe it's not you -- maybe the paradigm is wrong. Perhaps, as we age, women are healthier with a higher body fat percentage . IIRC there have been a couple of studies reporting people in the overweight category living the longest.
I agree that the Shah and Braverman study was just taking a snap shot, it wasn't a study that intends to follow up to match up health outcomes with the various biomarkers and scans.

The difficulty lies in that there is a substantial difference between being overweight and 'morbidly obese' - despite my BMI of <22, my body fat classifies me as morbidly obese - and it's unlikely that anyone would argue that that would be acceptable on a population level.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:02 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
I would hope that no-one else would be in the 'normal weight morbidly obese' category - there was only 1 other woman like that in the 875 in the Shah and Braverman study that I referred to earlier (figure 1).

There were a fair number in the (BMI) overweight (body fat) morbidly obese category and some who are in the (BMI) obese (body fat) super obese category.

If people can, I wonder if it's worth getting an assessment so that there is a way of monitoring both the bone mass (useful as women head into peri-menopause or pass through it) and muscle mass. This would be particularly useful to people who are in the process of losing their body fat and might want to pay special attention to preserving the lean body mass.
I have checked and can get a local Bod Pod assessment for $49 or 2 for $79. I will most likely opt for the 2 / $79 deal and check progress after 6 months or so past the initial assessment. In the interim I am focusing on consuming DD calories of primarily protein and making sure I get ample protein on up days.

While it's only a couple of DD's into this, I am noticing that I am not as hungry on either DD's or UD's. I know that I have not been eating maintence level protein on DDs but probably half or less. I wonder if better nourishment is helping with the hunger level.

Slow Sure, thank you so very, very much for sharing all of this with us. No doubt your next BF assessment will show a much better percentage for you, now that you know what you're dealing with and can formulate an action plan. We are all rooting for you and appreciate you!

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Old 07-23-2013, 05:59 PM   #81
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Years ago when I did a BodPod measurement, I was at 41% FAT. It wasn't that shocking to me at the time, since I was also very overweight, not just over fat. Also, I'm extremely well-endowed in my bosom, so I always figure I can take 5% off just for those!
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:20 PM   #82
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Sirtain, so funny that you said that! When I went in February, another friend went with me, and we are both busty, even considering proportion. We talked on the way home about how many percentage points we should add to our "ideal," just for our breasts.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:40 PM   #83
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I'm planning on getting an assessment too (hydrostatic). I was planning on waiting until closer to goal, but I'm taking SlowSure's advice to get a baseline and see where I am ... either in August or Sept.

I will probably not get my full "recommended" protein, because I think I'll hate my diet if I do, but I am going to try to get more protein than I was. Today I managed to get 79 grams on a DD, which I think is pretty good! (protein powder, Greek yogurt, chicken breast).
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:03 AM   #84
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Christina, if you use bodyfattest, you'll probably get the same tech I use, a guy named Brian. I'm going back again in early November.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:16 AM   #85
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Quote:
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I'm planning on getting an assessment too (hydrostatic). I was planning on waiting until closer to goal, but I'm taking SlowSure's advice to get a baseline and see where I am ... either in August or Sept.

I will probably not get my full "recommended" protein, because I think I'll hate my diet if I do, but I am going to try to get more protein than I was. Today I managed to get 79 grams on a DD, which I think is pretty good! (protein powder, Greek yogurt, chicken breast).


Great post, Chris.

I was also going to defer the BF test but like you, will have it done sooner. I am also working to bump the protein eaten on DD's and am finding that for me personally it promotes better satisfaction on DDs and less hunger on both UDs and DDs.

I wish I could use my Ta-Ta's as an excuse but sadly that's not the case.

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Old 07-24-2013, 06:34 AM   #86
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Since going Primal I always got a fairly high daily protein percentage and at the beginning of this year when I started really trying to concentrate on strength training I specifically targeted for 1g of protein per pound of weight, not LBM, so I was getting about 200g per day.

But the interesting affect of JUDDD is that even though on up days I was still getting 200g+ of protein the DDs caused my overall percentage of protein to drop below carbohydrates. It wasn't until recently when I upped my DD calories and started making sure I ate as much protein as I could on DD's that it swung the other way and protein was a higher percentage than carbohydrates.

On the graph below I began JUDDD in April and I upped DD's and protein on DD's in June.

I never saw this until today, but it makes me think that DD calories should mostly come in the form of protein, and then on UD's you should make sure that you up your protein to compensate for lower protein on DD's.

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Low Calorie: 7/14/2011 - 80lbs lost
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Old 07-25-2013, 01:22 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Kimmietoo View Post
I am focusing on consuming DD calories of primarily protein and making sure I get ample protein on up days.
...
Slow Sure, thank you so very, very much for sharing all of this with us... We are all rooting for you and appreciate you!
Thank you so much I'm really pleased if it's helping people to plan their losses and eventual maintenance with a view to preserving as much of their lean body mass as is appropriate for them.

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Originally Posted by calichris View Post
I'm planning on getting an assessment too (hydrostatic). I was planning on waiting until closer to goal, but I'm taking SlowSure's advice to get a baseline and see where I am ... either in August or Sept.

I will probably not get my full "recommended" protein, because I think I'll hate my diet if I do, but I am going to try to get more protein than I was.
I'm so pleased that you'll be getting an assessment. It will be so much easier for you to continue hiking and other activities if you maintain as much of your lean body mass and metabolic flexibility as suits your needs.

One of the reasons that I'm so concerned about LBM is that muscles contribute to insulin sensitivity and good metabolic health. The more muscle mass that people can keep, and the more they sustain activity, the less likely they are to exhibit insulin resistance and attendant metabolic derangements.
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Old 07-25-2013, 01:23 PM   #88
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Years ago when I did a BodPod measurement, I was at 41% FAT....Also, I'm extremely well-endowed in my bosom, so I always figure I can take 5% off just for those!
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...We talked on the way home about how many percentage points we should add to our "ideal," just for our breasts.
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I wish I could use my Ta-Ta's as an excuse but sadly that's not the case.
You 3 are hilarious
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Old 07-25-2013, 01:30 PM   #89
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But the interesting affect of JUDDD is that even though on up days I was still getting 200g+ of protein the DDs caused my overall percentage of protein to drop below carbohydrates. It wasn't until recently when I upped my DD calories and started making sure I ate as much protein as I could on DD's that it swung the other way and protein was a higher percentage than carbohydrates. ...

I never saw this until today, but it makes me think that DD calories should mostly come in the form of protein, and then on UD's you should make sure that you up your protein to compensate for lower protein on DD's.
Thank you for keeping and plotting out your data like this because it's helpful to see the introduction of JUDDD and then your inclusion of more protein which switches your ratio.

I'd agree that it is looking increasingly wise to spend DD kcals on protein, both for satiety and the preservation of LBM. Similarly, given the delay in digestion governing the availability of amino acids etc., it may be wise to eat some protein with the later meal of an UD to cover the early part of a DD.
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Old 07-25-2013, 02:29 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
One of the reasons that I'm so concerned about LBM is that muscles contribute to insulin sensitivity and good metabolic health. The more muscle mass that people can keep, and the more they sustain activity, the less likely they are to exhibit insulin resistance and attendant metabolic derangements.
I tend to think of it in terms of metabolism and looks, but that's a really good point, thanks.

SlowSure, this thread has been helpful in so many ways.
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