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-   -   Calorie swing? (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/juddd/808179-calorie-swing.html)

piglet513 07-17-2013 06:55 AM

Calorie swing?
 
I've heard a couple different proposals on why JUDDD works so well. Some say that the calorie swing is very important to make it work. Meaning that you need to stay down around your limit for DD's whatever it is, and make sure you eat up to your allotment on your UD, so that there is a big swing.

I've also heard that if you're not hungry on an UD, don't eat. Meaning, let's say you have eaten 1500 calories on an UD and your limit is 2006. I've heard some say that you shouldn't make yourself eat more if you're not hungry just to get to that UD number. That it will still work just fine if you don't.

Is there a general consensus on this or does it seem that it is YMMV?

piglet513 07-17-2013 06:57 AM

I guess the reason I'm asking is because yesterday I had to woof down 2 cups of ice cream at the end of the day to get up to my UD allotment. I don't know if this is necessary for the "swing" or if it doesn't matter.

SlowSure 07-17-2013 07:17 AM

It's less of a YMMV (for me) and more a question of how regularly this happens.

Using the 3rd person impersonal would sound ridiculous but I hope it's obvious that I don't mean you, Piglet, in this example, I'm speaking in general. :)

If you find yourself uninterested in eating your UD allowance once every 10 days or so and you're quite sedentary then it's no big thing. Likewise, if it's related to feeling unwell or you're just too hot because it's Summer and this is unlikely to continue.

If you were finding that you don't eat your UD allowance x3 a week or every 10 days, and you were undershooting by quite a way, I'd be concerned that:
  • the diet might, over the long haul, lack some nutrients;
  • as above, not only vitamins but calcium, essential fats and protein;
  • the diet more resembles a calorie restrictive diet with consequences for down-rating of the metabolism, over time (and, in women, the loss of the menstrual cycle);
  • it's not a big enough swing to maintain Sirtuin advantage(?);
  • in some people it might push them towards some UUAD eventually which is not a problem for the food but for the attendant shame/guilt it seems to induce in some and a sense that, "I can't stick to this".
I would be especially concerned about the above for women of child-bearing age as well as men and women who are fairly active. I'd be very mindful of counter-productive calorie or nutrient deficits for those members who have metabolic derangement (e.g., blood sugar issues, thyroid problems).

I also have some nebulous thoughts about the long-term impact on the gut but I've probably already over-thought this for what the OP had in mind. :)

shirlc 07-17-2013 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowSure (Post 16518831)
It's less of a YMMV (for me) and more a question of how regularly this happens.

Using the 3rd person impersonal would sound ridiculous but I hope it's obvious that I don't mean you, Piglet, in this example, I'm speaking in general. :)

If you find yourself uninterested in eating your UD allowance once every 10 days or so and you're quite sedentary then it's no big thing. Likewise, if it's related to feeling unwell or you're just too hot because it's Summer and this is unlikely to continue.

If you were finding that you don't eat your UD allowance x3 a week or every 10 days, and you were undershooting by quite a way, I'd be concerned that:
  • the diet might, over the long haul, lack some nutrients;
  • as above, not only vitamins but calcium, essential fats and protein;
  • the diet more resembles a calorie restrictive diet with consequences for down-rating of the metabolism, over time (and, in women, the loss of the menstrual cycle);
  • it's not a big enough swing to maintain Sirtuin advantage(?);
  • in some people it might push them towards some UUAD eventually which is not a problem for the food but for the attendant shame/guilt it seems to induce in some and a sense that, "I can't stick to this".
I would be especially concerned about the above for women of child-bearing age as well as men and women who are fairly active. I'd be very mindful of counter-productive calorie or nutrient deficits for those members who have metabolic derangement (e.g., blood sugar issues, thyroid problems).

I also have some nebulous thoughts about the long-term impact on the gut but I've probably already over-thought this for what the OP had in mind. :)

:goodpost: definitely something (for me) to think about!!! I reduced my UD from 1600 to 1400 (with DD at 500) so that only averages out to 950 per day. Think I better go back to UD, 1600; DD 500 for an average of 1050 per day...only makes good sense not to go below 1050, which is still pretty low. This is just speaking for me, also, but I'm better off having my calories in nuts or something like that rather than ice cream. Although I have to say, I LOVE ice cream!

adillenal 07-17-2013 07:34 AM

I don't believe in force feeding to make calories. BUT I have never had a problem with eating on UD's. I have more trouble trying to keep my calories down. Only have had a couple of really low UD's in the past 18 months BUT I keep DD's low to compensate so I probably have a really big swing between UD and DD calorie wise. It works for me but everyone is different.

piglet513 07-17-2013 07:36 AM

Since I'm still so heavy, I have a lot of UD calories, and I guess it's really hard for me to wrap my head around eating so much when I'm on a "diet". My brain constantly tells me to save the calories I can, but I don't know if this is countering any progress I could be making.

Demonica 07-17-2013 07:39 AM

I usually keep my DDs under 400 and my UD limit is 1800. The last few UDs I have had a little bit of a problem making UD calories. Not that that is a bad thing (for me anyway):laugh:

I think I remember reading (can't remember where. On here maybe?) that the swing between UD and DD should be at least 1000 calories.

LoCarbGal 07-17-2013 07:48 AM

For me, the calorie swing is crucial. Seemingly both for my losses, but also for my satisfaction. I do MUCH better with lower DDs and higher UDs. I don't usually mind restricting just that little bit more on DDs if it means I can have a little more on UDs and not feel restricted.

That said, I did have a 3 - 4 week maintenance break where I raised my DDs to 600-700 and lowered my UDs by a 100 or 200, and that was a good shake up at that time - got the losses moving again and was a nice mental break.

KeirasMom 07-17-2013 08:01 AM

For me, it was pretty much a mental game. On DDs, I'd get so used to restricting that I felt I had to eat the same foods on UDs, just in larger quantities. That didn't work out too well. I found I wasn't getting a good balance of foods, fats, protein, etc. The higher UDs, even when I'm eating things like ice cream or chocolate to get to my UD numbers, are where I feel I'm getting the best nutrition, if that makes sense. The "junk" I was eating was still providing me with good fats that I just didn't get on DDs.

I also found that if I didn't eat up to my UD numbers, my losses slowed or stopped. It was too much of a stress on my body. None of us want to make our metabolisms even more sluggish than they already are, IYKWIM. That can and does happen with every day calorie restriction.

When I started JUDDD, I had a pretty generous UD allotment. I think my 20% numbers were around 2450/400 (or somewhere close to that). I averaged 3 pounds per week loss with those numbers.

piglet513 07-17-2013 08:12 AM

Yeah, I was afraid that if I didn't eat up to my UD calories that my metabolism would slow down even more, so that's why I make an effort to hit it. I've likely damaged my metabolism in the past with all the yo yo dieting I've been through. From what I gather, as my body gets used to the swing of UD and DD, my metabolism will improve. Also, I really need to amp up the exercise because that would probably help too.

I was in the Marine Corps for seven years in my early twenties, and always struggled with weight there too. It was weird for me being told that 5'4" and 140 pounds was overweight, but I made it work. I tried every unhealthy, dangerous diet out there, so I'm sure my body has a hard time of letting go now. If that makes sense...

Flutter 07-17-2013 08:21 AM

Piglet, are you eating throughout the day or saving a lot of your calories for dinner? If you're having a hard time eating to your UD cals, I'd start eating earlier in the days. As others mention often around here, eat higher cal/fat foods that are more calorie dense but not too filling. (nuts, cheese, oils, chocolate, full fat yogurt, etc) I occasionally still have a hard time getting to UD cals, too. Unfortunately, I like cocktails & chocolate, so I can add them on quickly without feeling too full. Ahem. :)

From my personal experience, I need to keep UDs on the higher side and DDs really low. If the spread isn't so great, I don't do as well. Likewise, if I lower my UD cals too much, I don't do well, either! Stick to the plan, is my motto! It has certainly worked for me and stopped when I tried to tweak!

E.W. 07-17-2013 08:59 AM

It's probably a couple of things. When your insulin is high your body can't mobilize
stored fat for energy because the hormone insulin sensitive lipase is turned off. Then
on a dd your insulin is a lot lower letting your body burn fat. And there have been
some studies that show that the first 2 days of a fast your body actualy burns about
20% more calories than on a non fast day and a 400 cal. DD seems about like a fast
to your body. Back to the burning more calories on the first 2 days of a fast your
metabolism does slow down a little after that second day. And there may be some other reasons too. Now if I could just get back on the program .....

vanilla_latte 07-17-2013 09:34 AM

I know I sound like a broken record, but last year when I'd finally started losing before having a hysterectomy, it was suggested I count my UD calories to make sure I was eating up to them. I "thought" I had been, found I hadn't been, did so, and began losing.

Beeb has a thread on here called "You Gotta Eat" and it explains some good stuff. :up:

piglet513 07-17-2013 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanilla_latte (Post 16519148)
I know I sound like a broken record, but last year when I'd finally started losing before having a hysterectomy, it was suggested I count my UD calories to make sure I was eating up to them. I "thought" I had been, found I hadn't been, did so, and began losing.

Beeb has a thread on here called "You Gotta Eat" and it explains some good stuff. :up:

Ok, I'll check out that thread. Thanks!!

MagicBeth 07-17-2013 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.W. (Post 16519075)
It's probably a couple of things. When your insulin is high your body can't mobilize
stored fat for energy because the hormone insulin sensitive lipase is turned off. Then
on a dd your insulin is a lot lower letting your body burn fat. And there have been
some studies that show that the first 2 days of a fast your body actualy burns about
20% more calories than on a non fast day and a 400 cal. DD seems about like a fast
to your body. Back to the burning more calories on the first 2 days of a fast your
metabolism does slow down a little after that second day. And there may be some other reasons too. Now if I could just get back on the program .....

That was very interesting, thanks for posting.

Kissa 07-17-2013 10:15 AM

Great answers here already. I do feel it is wise to try to eat up those those calories. In the book he is somewhat ambivalent about them, saying that you need only eat 'normally' on Up Days. Now, for most of us here, 'normally' is an unknown quantity.

We have either been used to 'bingeing' or 'dieting', so our attitude to food is anything but normal.

All I can say is that the people who seem to lose most consistently are the people who stick pretty close to their UD and DD numbers.

So there you go!

piglet513 07-17-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kissa (Post 16519216)
We have either been used to 'bingeing' or 'dieting', so our attitude to food is anything but normal.

Excellent point Kissa! It's literally been feast or famine my whole life.

Lanarkwitch 07-17-2013 10:20 AM

ohhhh this is one of my biggest problems with JUDDD, I find it so terribly difficult to eat a lot one day and very little the next day, I have a great awareness that if I eat a lot on my UD I will seriously have a hard time on the next DD and my appetite ends up all over the place, half the week I am trying to ignore my hunger and the other half I am trying to eat more than I want, I truly hope it settles down.

Lanarkwitch 07-17-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piglet513 (Post 16519221)
Excellent point Kissa! It's literally been feast or famine my whole life.

Exactly the same as you, I have often wondered what would happen if I ate my full UD allowance for a month to test the theory that I can indeed eat 1900 cal per day and not gain weight, because I fear that's not true.

piglet513 07-17-2013 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanarkwitch (Post 16519227)
Exactly the same as you, I have often wondered what would happen if I ate my full UD allowance for a month to test the theory that I can indeed eat 1900 cal per day and not gain weight, because I fear that's not true.

I've thought the exact same thing!! But I'm not risking it because I don't trust my metabolism.

KeirasMom 07-17-2013 11:00 AM

The calculator on Dr. Johnson's website actually gives you a little higher than your calculated maintenance calories for UDs.

I'm being the guinea pig right now, trying to eat at a set daily caloric amount. I am currently using 1675 calories, which is what was calculated for maintenance at 139 pounds, and I was 149 when I calculated. I did it that way to see if I could maintain, or if I could actually lose at that calorie level. (So far, I've gained 2 pounds, but I've only been doing it for a few days, and I'm giving it at least a couple of weeks to see what happens). I'm posting in the daily weigh-in thread.

calichris 07-17-2013 11:09 AM

Oh! I thought those were maintenance calories on the JUDDD calculator? I guess it's pretty hard to figure out your actual perfect maintenance calories anyway unless you know your lean body mass? argh.

zipp2play 07-17-2013 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adillenal (Post 16518870)
I don't believe in force feeding to make calories. BUT I have never had a problem with eating on UD's. I have more trouble trying to keep my calories down. Only have had a couple of really low UD's in the past 18 months.

THIS IS ME EXACTLY! I never have a problem eating up to my calories!

KeirasMom 07-17-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calichris (Post 16519296)
Oh! I thought those were maintenance calories on the JUDDD calculator? I guess it's pretty hard to figure out your actual perfect maintenance calories anyway unless you know your lean body mass? argh.

I'm pretty sure they're slightly inflated so that it works out when you actually go into maintenance and are still having lower/higher days. I think Yam-Yam or maybe Nancy figured out the formula at one point a looong time ago and UD calories are something like 12% above actual maintenance calories. I could be wrong, so don't quote me on that! :hyst:

Leo41 07-17-2013 11:40 AM

I want to jump in here based on my 3-year experience of doing JUDDD to complete my own weight loss.

This calorie swing--or the importance of the gap between DD and UD calories--is a myth that developed on boards like this. It is not part of JUDDD at all.

Background--I came to JUDDD (and continued to eat VLC) because age and medical issues require me to eat very low calories to lose--<1000. To do that on a daily basis was frustrating and led to periodic overeating. Calorie cycling was the answer--and that's all JUDDD is, a plan to cycle calories.

When I began JUDDD (about 5 years ago), Dr. J was active and answered questions via the website. My initial DD number was 430 cal, but the UD (which I've forgotten) would put me way over what I already knew were my calories to lose. It's the 'average' of DD/UD that results in loss, and it must be a good caloric deficit (not too low) for the individual.

I explained to Dr. J that with a 400 cal DD, I could not lose unless I kept my UD to 1400 cal. He wrote back and explained that the UD number is, in a sense, a fiction. It's a general idea of what the person would need--much as most online calculators. He told me that keeping to my DD number would be the key, and whatever caloric level worked for me on UDs was fine.

I later told my endo that I was doiing this at 400/1400, and he thought that was great. Throughout my loss, I had regular blood tests, and my labs were always excellent. I rarely lost more than a pound a week--very slow for most of you--so I knew I wasn't eating too little.

I've been maintaining for 3 years.

Flossyliz 07-17-2013 11:41 AM

O'Donnell says: Try and remember to keep the “I” in “IF” still. Remember the “hormesis” curve from early on? It showed that small stressors provide a positive feedback response from the body, but excessive/chronic will take it in the opposite direction.
Trying to eat less all the time (chronic calorie restriction) while helping you to lose weight initially, will also cause negative feedback loops on your metabolism thyroid/adrenal activity, muscle loss) and general health (energy, mood, immune system). Then you are just doing a “crash diet”, which never lasts or works.
Taking days off IF to eat however you like (and re-load on higher calorie intake to signal a release from lower calorie “stress” to the body) can be an important part of your success...and sanity!

2 Meal Solution: Mike O'Donnell – The IF Life

Flossyliz 07-17-2013 11:45 AM

Leo, our posts crossed.
Congratulations on your successful loss and maintainance!
You seem to back up the 100cal gap theory.
Thanks for your insights.

piglet513 07-17-2013 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo41 (Post 16519348)
I want to jump in here based on my 3-year experience of doing JUDDD to complete my own weight loss.

This calorie swing--or the importance of the gap between DD and UD calories--is a myth that developed on boards like this. It is not part of JUDDD at all.

Background--I came to JUDDD (and continued to eat VLC) because age and medical issues require me to eat very low calories to lose--<1000. To do that on a daily basis was frustrating and led to periodic overeating. Calorie cycling was the answer--and that's all JUDDD is, a plan to cycle calories.

When I began JUDDD (about 5 years ago), Dr. J was active and answered questions via the website. My initial DD number was 430 cal, but the UD (which I've forgotten) would put me way over what I already knew were my calories to lose. It's the 'average' of DD/UD that results in loss, and it must be a good caloric deficit (not too low) for the individual.

I explained to Dr. J that with a 400 cal DD, I could not lose unless I kept my UD to 1400 cal. He wrote back and explained that the UD number is, in a sense, a fiction. It's a general idea of what the person would need--much as most online calculators. He told me that keeping to my DD number would be the key, and whatever caloric level worked for me on UDs was fine.

I later told my endo that I was doiing this at 400/1400, and he thought that was great. Throughout my loss, I had regular blood tests, and my labs were always excellent. I rarely lost more than a pound a week--very slow for most of you--so I knew I wasn't eating too little.

I've been maintaining for 3 years.

Very interesting Leo! That's really awesome that you got a response from Dr. J. I think if I don't get anywhere within a few weeks, I'll cut the UD number a bit.

Flossyliz 07-17-2013 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flossyliz (Post 16519357)
Leo, our posts crossed.
Congratulations on your successful loss and maintainance!
You seem to back up the 100cal gap theory.
Thanks for your insights.

Sorry, that obviously should read 1000 cal gap!

SlowSure 07-17-2013 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo41 (Post 16519348)
I want to jump in here based on my 3-year experience of doing JUDDD to complete my own weight loss.

This calorie swing--or the importance of the gap between DD and UD calories--is a myth that developed on boards like this. It is not part of JUDDD at all.

I had you in mind as a caveat when I wrote my response but couldn't come up a way of including your circumstances within a general response without disappearing down a rabbit hole.

My recollection is that you had a portfolio of conditions that resulted in you benefiting from a simultaneously low carb and low calorie approach. You're successfully maintaining by following a similar regime to this day, if I remember correctly.

It's difficult to know but I wonder if Dr Johnson might have given different advice to women with less complex conditions than you or who were of child-bearing age. Or people who might be in danger of over-reducing their lean body mass before they transition to middle age?


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