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Old 06-13-2013, 06:19 PM   #61
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I just decided to make my goal as the size I was before I put the weight on. I was around 140 then so I knew that was a size that was possible for me to be and chose that. That weight looks very thin on me and made me look like I weighed 120 so I know 140 is about the smallest I'll get without being underweight.

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Old 06-13-2013, 06:32 PM   #62
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Good idea, Papermoon. I was at 135 for a long time before I started putting on weight. I liked how I felt at that size, but I suspect I'll look smaller at that size now, due to muscles gained from carrying around 200+ lbs.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:19 PM   #63
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:59 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
Good idea, Papermoon. I was at 135 for a long time before I started putting on weight. I liked how I felt at that size, but I suspect I'll look smaller at that size now, due to muscles gained from carrying around 200+ lbs.
LOL! Good point!
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:02 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Carly View Post
I think I've already lost a lot of lean muscle because I really don't look or feel strong. My legs and arms look scrawny and I used to have very toned legs (I walk around in those stilettos 9 hours a day/ 5 days a week ) All this to say I'm going to stay put for now, but I'd like to feel better about my appearance, but don't want to compromise my health by losing more lean muscle
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Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
I'm worried about that a little too now, Carly. I wonder how you can prevent that, as Yennie wondered...losing LBM, that is. I guess I could start weight-training now, as opposed to waiting until I've gotten closer to goal. ....
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Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
Yes, weight training is the best way to preserve--or build--LBM. That and getting enough protein are key.
I always like to read what Ntombi says about weight-training as I've seen a number of interesting discussions involving Ntombi commonsense in the archives.

Trillex recently posted about an issue that's rumbling round in body-building circles: Men vs Women
Quote:
Layne Norton, a significant figure in American physique competition, had a series of outbursts on his YouTube channel about "bad coaching" that cuts calories so low that physique competitors -- like bodybuilders and fitness models -- have difficulty "recovering" between competition cycles. Norton's YouTube lectures were directed at coaches who, in his opinion, cut calories too drastically. Norton says that he gets clients whose previous coach caused "metabolic damage" by getting the client competition-ready on a calorie level that is so low that their metabolic systems have down-regulated in a way that keeps them from being able to eat a heavy weight training level of calories without over-accumulating bodyfat, rather than building muscle during the "bulking" cycle
I listened to some of those talks

Layne Norton Metabolic Damage YouTube

and he has some useful ideas/experiences that are applicable not only to physique competitors but people who are intentionally losing bodyfat or who have lost it and want to maintain it. (Do not look at the comments, it would just make you despair for humanity.)

Some takeaway points from his 'fireside chats' (he's pretty much torching a number of recommended diet and exercise training strategies):
  • coaches have persuaded clients to drop to low calorie intakes and to do too much cardio and this leads to metabolic adaptation/damage that is detrimental and leads to them gaining bodyfat rather than muscle when they eat 'normally' or for maintenance rather than VLC.
  • You have to preserve or gain LBM and this is through weight-training (those of you who've recently been heavier might not yet have metabolically adapted so much that you've lost too much of your LBM)
  • If you're already metabolically adapted/damaged then you've got to eat more calories to gain the muscle and you do this so that you can drop the bodyfat when you're ready (recomposition has to overcome the initial horror of this idea)
  • If you enjoy cardio, that's great and it can have other benefits but beyond an initial stage, 1 or 2 hrs cardio a day may be contributing to metabolic adaptation. (He cites/discuses an excellent review in support of this: it's very long and a very technical read.)
I recommend his views on metabolic adaptation as I think they have useful nuggets for weight loss/bodyfat loss in general. He particularly spoke about how to reintroduce food back once you're in maintenance and this raised some interesting aspects of JUDDD for me (particularly about why we have successful maintainers). (However, this is already too long.)

Last edited by SlowSure; 06-14-2013 at 01:04 AM..
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:41 PM   #66
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The comments always make me despair for humanity. I can't read them anywhere anymore.
Thank you for yet another awesome and insightful post. I will check out the link when I'm back in the land of reliable internet access not on my phone.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:46 PM   #67
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Definitely not suited to your phone

Colorado review to which Norton refers in several videos: http://ajpregu.physiology.org/conten.../R581.full.pdf

Quote:
Dieting is the most common approach to losing weight for the majority of obese and overweight individuals. Restricting intake leads to weight loss in the short term, but, by itself, dieting has a relatively poor success rate for long-term weight reduction. Most obese people eventually regain the weight they have worked so hard to lose. Weight regain has emerged as one of the most significant obstacles for obesity therapeutics, undoubtedly perpetuating the epidemic of excess weight that now affects more than 60% of U.S. adults. In this review, we summarize the evidence of biology’s role in the problem of weight regain. Biology’s impact is first placed in context with other pressures known to affect body weight. Then, the biological adaptations to an energy-restricted, low-fat diet that are known to occur in the overweight and obese are reviewed, and an integrative picture of energy homeostasis after long-term weight reduction and during weight regain is pre- sented...
To be successful in the long term, our strategies for preventing weight regain may need to be just as comprehensive, persistent, and redundant, as the biological adaptations they are attempting to counter.
Another good review which might be of some interest to you, bearing in mind your upcoming sports commitments and thoughts concerning preservation of your LBM: JISSN | Full text | Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?
Quote:
Nutrient timing is a popular nutritional strategy that involves the consumption of combinations of nutrients--primarily protein and carbohydrate--in and around an exercise session. Some have claimed that this approach can produce dramatic improvements in body composition. It has even been postulated that the timing of nutritional consumption may be more important than the absolute daily intake of nutrients...Therefore, the purpose of this paper will be twofold: 1) to review the existing literature on the effects of nutrient timing with respect to post-exercise muscular adaptations, and; 2) to draw relevant conclusions that allow practical, evidence-based nutritional recommendations to be made for maximizing the anabolic response to exercise.
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:39 PM   #68
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Slow, that makes me tired to read it! Sounds very text-bookish, but intersting nonetheless. What I gather from it is, without weight training, you will ruin your metabolism by losing weight without exercise or with cardio alone. And, that long-term success for the aforementioned weight-loss is not good. While weight-training is optimal, I don't believe that anyone who is committed to JUDDD in maintenance *could* regain their weight, IF they continued to fast on a regular basis. Without JUDDD, it would be next to impossible for *me* to sustain a low-calorie, healthy diet "forever".
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"Never give up on a dream just because of the length of time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."


"In every triumph there is a lot of try."

"Have the courage of your desire."
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Last edited by Librarygirl; 06-16-2013 at 05:40 PM..
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:49 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by KeirasMom View Post
Thanks Cindy! I don't want to get down to 125. I was actually below that for my late teens, early twenties, and it's too thin. I'm at the point now, where I'm trying to balance my gut with my face. As I lose, I look older, and I certainly don't want that! 145 will most likely be as low as I go, but I make no guarantees.
I do notice when some people have lost a lot of weight, you can see the wrinkles a bit more. I don't want to look older either, just healthy.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
What I gather from it is, without weight training, you will ruin your metabolism by losing weight without exercise or with cardio alone. And, that long-term success for the aforementioned weight-loss is not good. While weight-training is optimal, I don't believe that anyone who is committed to JUDDD in maintenance *could* regain their weight, IF they continued to fast on a regular basis. Without JUDDD, it would be next to impossible for *me* to sustain a low-calorie, healthy diet "forever".
It's a long, technical read and it undermines the review that there isn't a readily accessible 'lay summary' of the sort that are provided for reviews carried out by the Cochrane Organisation (scientists, researchers, clinicians volunteer to carry out unbelievably detailed, technical reviews of the literature on health topics and they provide a summary that is suitable for lay people).

I think the reviewers' point about needing to have multiple, overlapping, strategies to maintain weight loss is what prompted me to think further about why JUDDD has notable, successful maintainers.

Dr Johnson might well make an argument for successful maintenance as indicative of the power of Sirtuins in this context.

My speculation would be that part of this is related to the continuance of fast days and that our maintainers don't 'revert back' to their former WOE. They keep on doing what they were already doing (a style of eating that is sustainable for them) while JUDDDing and nudging up their calories enough to maintain but not beyond that. This still gives them the metabolic 'buffer' as Norton advocates.

Now, the sample here is restricted mostly to people who have formerly followed LC, or are LC aware, but it doesn't seem as if there has been any sense that people reach their targets and reward themselves with an eating spree of a previously restricted food group that then leads to a weight rebound* (unlike some other WOE and I get the impression that all of the maintainers eat a mixed diet rather than very LC or LC but probably overall they eat less carbohydrate than the standard diet. ETA: the review mostly addresses what is known about adaptions relating to low-fat, calorie-restricted WOE but, again, that's not what the successful JUDDDers we know about are doing).

I find the review to be a very positive reason for planning at least the outline of your maintenance strategy some time before you reach your goal weight. That way, you can pick several overlapping and (with luck) mutually reinforcing strategies that have a good chance of being sustainable or that you can evaluate and keep/discard as appropriate.

*Of course, I have no way of knowing if this spree/rebound has happened if non-posting maintainers haven't written about it.

Last edited by SlowSure; 06-16-2013 at 06:39 PM..
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:01 AM   #71
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I have a feeling a part of it for us who can successfully maintain is the fact that we come here often, get support and stay accountable. I wonder if I would be as diligent about my maintenance if I didn't have this lovely group of juddd buds?
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:38 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Carly View Post
I have a feeling a part of it for us who can successfully maintain is the fact that we come here often, get support and stay accountable. I wonder if I would be as diligent about my maintenance if I didn't have this lovely group of juddd buds?
I strongly agree with this.

The studies that have been done that praise commercial weight loss programmes (despite the negligible overall or sustained losses) usually comment that support and accountability are the major assets of such programmes.

As you indicate, support and accountability are probably a good part of the overlapping, multiple strategies that the review authors advocate for successful maintenance.
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