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Old 06-10-2013, 04:18 PM   #31
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Aw, thanks! He's my sweet boy.

Yes, I walk Buddy, slowly and not for long, twice daily, which is the extent of my exercise. Lucky for me, he would prefer to never leave the house, unless we were going for a car ride. So he's perfectly happy with our short jaunts and frequent trips to the nearby dog park.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:35 PM   #32
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Each time that I lost and regained and lost less and gained more, I noticed that I was smaller at a higher weight. At that time, I did not realize it was because of the additional muscle, I just knew I had no handle whatsoever on what to expect at any weight.

This time, I didn't set a goal until...well, actually until 3 months ago so I was definitely a wait and see until I can tell what I'm working with.

So while I have set a maximum weight goal of 149 (the top end of my normal BMI), I don't truly consider it my goal weight but a point where I can stop and take a breather and re-evaluate. These are the other criteria that I will use:

Body Fat% Goal: 22.9 to 27.9 (ideal range for my age group)
I took a WAG that something in this range would suit me and spent a great deal of time strength training in May. I overzealously got down to 21.9% about 10+ lbs ago which is just at the top of lean range. I was happy with the composition if not the size, but I have no intention of training that often. I have now cut back to what I'm willing to do (twice a week) and basically will see how that feels at 149.

Waist Circumference: <=35"
Even though I was measuring every week, I really hadn't a clue if I'd be there at 149 and I now see the answer is yes. This again is just a no larger than number and the actual will depend on the next item...

Waist to Hip Ratio: <=.8
This is really what's driving what happens next when I get to 149. Until I know exactly what's what, I see no reason to bother with speculation.

I guess you could loosely say I have less of a weight goal than a body shape goal. It's not just all based on vanity either lol as the waist things are moreso about reducing my risk for heart disease, etc.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:42 PM   #33
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Good luck Yenni on your test Wednesday. I hope you come back with some good news and I'm curious how accurate your online estimate was. I'm not having another one until I reach goal. I use the calipers on the in between weeks. They are indeed less accurate but a lot of it depends upon the training of the person who does the test. The last accurate is most scales which measures all sorts of other thing too and counts it in with fat.

What a cute little muppet you have Nytombi! He doesn't look like he's a good 7 lbs lol. How old is he? I have a 5-year old miniature poodle who is around 12 lbs.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:48 PM   #34
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Reading SouthernBelle's post reminded me of the interesting Braverman and Shah discussion of BMI in 2012 and the results of their BMI, DXA scan and leptin study.

PLOS ONE: Measuring Adiposity in Patients: The Utility of Body Mass Index (BMI), Percent Body Fat, and Leptin PLOS ONE: Measuring Adiposity in Patients: The Utility of Body Mass Index (BMI), Percent Body Fat, and Leptin

For various interesting reasons they propose that the BMI threshold should be 24 for women and 28 for men but discuss some of the reasons why BMI is convenient but a very blunt tool as Yennie and others indicate.
Quote:
BMI is possibly more misleading for women than for men, Braverman and Shah say, since women lose muscle and bone, and replace it with fat, faster than men. BMI measurements don’t take into account precisely how weight is distributed in the body, and, as Braverman explained to HealthDay, “it’s the percent of body fat, not BMI, that makes you obese.”

Based on BMI, about one-third of Americans are considered obese, but when other methods of measuring obesity are used, that number may be closer to 60%, according to Braverman.

Read more: Americans May Be Much Fatter Than We Think, Study Says | TIME.com
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:00 PM   #35
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What a cute little muppet you have Nytombi! He doesn't look like he's a good 7 lbs lol. How old is he? I have a 5-year old miniature poodle who is around 12 lbs.
He's about 8 now (he was a rescue, so we're not positive), and he's 19 pounds! He was severely underweight when he came home, but once he got to a good weight, which took close to a year, he's stayed there on his own. He's tall for a Bichon, but he was under 12 pounds when he was surrendered to the rescue. Bones. Skin and bones. Now, he's a great weight and really healthy.

It's so funny, because he's really muscular, but he's so fluffy and cute, and looks lighter than he is. When people pet him or pick him up, or when I have him cut really close, they're always shocked, because he's a really built little dude.

My goal is to be as built as my dog.
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:09 PM   #36
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Thanks for posting the link SlowSure! I can hardly wait to read that paper, complete with slides and everything. Niceness!
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:13 PM   #37
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Quote:
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These are the other criteria that I will use:

Body Fat% Goal: 22.9 to 27.9 (ideal range for my age group)
?.. I overzealously got down to 21.9% about 10+ lbs ago which is just at the top of lean range. I was happy with the composition if not the size, but I have no intention of training that often. I have now cut back to what I'm willing to do (twice a week) and basically will see how that feels at 149.
...
I guess you could loosely say I have less of a weight goal than a body shape goal. It's not just all based on vanity either lol as the waist things are moreso about reducing my risk for heart disease, etc.
Well done on achieving that body composition - that sounds like a remarkable amount of work as well as an eminently sensible plan.

I have no difficulty believing that I'm normal weight obese, according to the Braverman and Shah categorisation as I'm bulkier at this size than I expected (my BMI is <23 but that feels irrelevant). I don't see any hydrostatic facilities available to the public in my vicinity although there are some Uni. Sports Depts. who sell BodPod evaluations. Hmm.
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:16 PM   #38
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Oh wow Ntombi, I never would have guessed he was 19 lbs. I'm laughing to myself now and thinking hmm, maybe one of my goals is to hear similar words uttered about myself.

I adopted my sweetie at 6 months from PAWS. She was well taken care of, but I got conflicting stories on why she was there. I personally think the issue was someone underestimated the commitment it takes to housebreak a puppy. Anyway, we got it knocked out and have been together ever since.
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:27 PM   #39
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Well done on achieving that body composition - that sounds like a remarkable amount of work as well as an eminently sensible plan.

I have no difficulty believing that I'm normal weight obese, according to the Braverman and Shah categorisation as I'm bulkier at this size than I expected (my BMI is <23 but that feels irrelevant). I don't see any hydrostatic facilities available to the public in my vicinity although there are some Uni. Sports Depts. who sell BodPod evaluations. Hmm.
Thanks! You could try calling the YMCA. It's not a service they offer in my area, but they do have a vendor who visits the different facilities in my metro area. If all else failed, I'd try contacting a personal trainer for a referral.
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:33 PM   #40
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Well done on achieving that body composition - that sounds like a remarkable amount of work as well as an eminently sensible plan.

I have no difficulty believing that I'm normal weight obese, according to the Braverman and Shah categorisation as I'm bulkier at this size than I expected (my BMI is <23 but that feels irrelevant). I don't see any hydrostatic facilities available to the public in my vicinity although there are some Uni. Sports Depts. who sell BodPod evaluations. Hmm.
I would go for the BodPod if that's what's available. It's not as accurate as the DEXA or hydrostatic, but it's way more accurate than the rest. It might be interesting to see if you're right about your body composition.
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:54 PM   #41
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Wow, you all have put so much thought and effort into choosing a goal.
For me, it was so random- it's almost embarrassing to post it here.
We were sitting in Statistics class last semester and another female
and I were talking about stuff (kids, exes, visitation, money, weight) and
I just thought out loud "I wonder if I could lose 50 by Fall Semester?"
A few people thought it was possible, a few thought it was ridiculous,
and I thought "Yeah, that's my goal".

Goal after that is 14 pounds, but I don't want to set a deadline for that one,
until I get the first 50 off.

Originally, I thought it would be cool to lose enough to go as Jodi Arias for
Halloween. Scary! But I don't think I'll be there this year. And by next year,
nobody will remember who she was.
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Old 06-10-2013, 10:03 PM   #42
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I found it interesting that, in this study, BMI actually under-estimated the rate of obesity as designated by percent body fat (in women). Since that is the opposite whinge that is usually had about why BMI is an inaccurate measure...I guess we'll see on Wednesday how the BMI scale specifically pertains to me.
Interesting article, however, and I was impressed with the authors' ability to identify the weaknesses of their study. Too often you read that section and its clear the authors think their paper is perfect and are just putting down something because they know they have to. To me, that honesty adds value.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:46 PM   #43
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Because I want to be able to state my weight casually whenever the subject comes up, and noticing that BMI would suggest 150 was a healthy weight for me, I chose 149. It seems nice to know that I can honestly say "under 150" range, rather than "in the 150s" range.

So scientific, huh?

Yes, I sometimes wonder about a lower goal. Waist to hip ratio is not the best. Right now I am seeing if targeted exercise changes this for me enough to be the answer on its own.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:04 PM   #44
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Hydrostatic Body Composition Testing

So I had my testing this morning. I would have loved to report in earlier but we had some issues with a fence, a steer and my husband's unwillingness to let all our hard work raising the beef go to waste when I shot the damn thing for climbing the fence...again! 1600' of fence repair + electric wire later...

Anyway... First, I am apparently 5'3" - I guess I grew. My weight this morning, on their scale, wearing only a swimsuit, was 167.8. This is 0.9# higher than my weight yesterday morning on my scale at home (neeked) so I'm pleased that they align closely. I had to climb in the tank, hook my toes under a bar, place a weight belt over my lap and lay back in the water. Holding my nose, I was to blow out all air in my lungs as apparently any left is recorded as fat. It was actually pretty unpleasant - the blowing out part, but I have a pathological fear of drowning and not being able to breathe so maybe for someone else it would be ok. I had to do it 3 times as I did not blow out enough air the first time. They take readings until they get 2 that are close. All told, I was in the water less than 5 minutes, and only under 6-9 seconds each time. The water was a very pleasant 94 degrees.

So, the results! My body fat % today was 32.9%, lean body mass of 112.5 leaving me with 55.3# of fat. This jives with the highest numbers I got from the various online calculators I used. It actually means that the BMI underestimates my degree of "obesity" because, as of today, with my new-found inch in height, according to my BMI I am no longer obese!!! However, obese is also considered having a body fat % above 30% so for that measure, I still am. Interesting...

With a lean body mass of 112.5#, even the tester agreed that a goal, for me, of 130# might be pretty extreme. He recommended I aim for 146#, which puts me at 23% body fat, which is the high end of the "acceptable" range. Not that I can't go lower, but that would be a good, healthy goal for the way I'm put together and then I can re-evaluate when I hit that point. He said 140# would probably be the lowest I'd be able to achieve reasonably, without a significant loss in lean body mass or devoting my life to body-building style workouts of several hours a day. That's not happening.

Interestingly, my resting metabolic rate was 1607, which he thought was low. He wondered if my fast weight loss did not slow down my metabolism and asked if my weight loss had slowed in the last few months. It has, kinda, but that's because I did a few breaks and a week of maintenance and haven't been doing my rotations correctly. I did not tell him about JUDDD, and when asked how I'd lost the 32# I told him I'd already lost, I just said, "Diet and exercise" which is my standard answer. He tried to sell me their diet book which I said I would check out online and I will, but I like JUDDD.

So that's the report!!!
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:20 PM   #45
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Interesting! I wonder how much, if any, LBM you've lost.

Yeah, it's not the most fun process in the world, but it's not horrible (unless you have a fear of drowning ). Last time, I got the exact same number my first two tries, so I was in and out, but my friend had to do it something like six or seven times!
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:06 PM   #46
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So interesting! I very much want to do this, but I'll wait until I'm around the 160s too. I don't need them to tell me I'm nowhere near goal now. (and yet much better off than I was and heading that way ...)

p.s. they gave you a lot of great information! How did they determine your resting metabolic rate?

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Old 06-13-2013, 01:56 AM   #47
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Great update Yennie! So, let me see if I understood what you've said...

Body Fat
Online Calculators: 26% to 32%
Hydrostatic: 32.9%

24.9 BMI @
136 for height of 5'-2"
140.5 for actual height of 5'-3"

Weight Goal
Old: 130 lbs
New: 146 lbs w/ 23% BF

OK, I have a question - which online body fat% calculator was closest to accurate for you?

I'm also curious if you plan to maintain your current activity level.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:01 AM   #48
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p.s. they gave you a lot of great information! How did they determine your resting metabolic rate?
I believe she went to the same company I use, and they use a computer model to calculate it, based on LBM + fat.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:12 AM   #49
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Interesting! I wonder how much, if any, LBM you've lost.

Yeah, it's not the most fun process in the world, but it's not horrible (unless you have a fear of drowning ). Last time, I got the exact same number my first two tries, so I was in and out, but my friend had to do it something like six or seven times!
I know you're concerned about your LBM since you can't exercise right now. Since you walk your dog, I know that doesn't mean complete bed rest but perhaps only low impact activities. Have you tried to find resistance exercises that you could do at home?
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:35 AM   #50
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I try to do some mild stretches and stuff, but it's not just impact. I can't get my body temperature or my heart rate up too high. This is to do with MS, not joints or anything.

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Old 06-13-2013, 03:14 AM   #51
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I try to do some mild stretches and stuff, but it's not just impact. I can't get my body temperature or my heart rate up too high. This is to do with MS, not joints or anything.
Admittedly, I know very little about it. I do have a gym friend who has MS and sticks to swimming (indoor pool obviously) and an "easy does it" water aerobics class.

When I started working out (this time lol), I was so intimidated. I have had a lower back injury for the past 3 years that has resulted in all sorts of issues - loss of balance and feeling in various parts of my lower legs and feet being the ones that bother me the most.

Soooo...just the idea of taking what I envisioned as a typical fitness class made me RME. I am in no way comparing my situation to your condition, but I started with Seniors classes at the YMCA. I'm uh...well let's just say I am in the 35 - 45 y.o. demographic and there was not a sole in there under 65 other than the instructor and myself lol. If you're interested in getting out of the house and adding a bit of variety, you may want to consider it as they are very sensitive to issues regarding heart rate and intensity. Also, I got some darn good recipes lol.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:24 AM   #52
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I'm not a stranger to exercising, even with MS.

I'm currently in a phase of the illness where it's not a good idea. There are a lot of reasons, but we're hopeful that it will end within the next few months.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:33 AM   #53
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Glad to hear!
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:06 AM   #54
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Yennie, as you might have anticipated, I'm very interested in your results.

23% doesn't sound like much bodyfat for a woman (in general) but you do have an athletic build so it would be good to mark a spot in the JUDDD calendars to see how you feel when you get there or to 146lbs.

As for your RMR... I'm beginning to have misgivings about the applicability of the reference numbers for the general population. I know that the ones people can obtain are snapshots rather than the ones that were conducted in highly-specialised facilities, but it seems that a high number of people are reporting BMRs of 1150-1700. Now, either I'm only coming across accounts by people who've been on a diet and exercise programme and possibly lowered their BMRs through efficiency (which is plausible) or it's time to consider that BMR and TDEE calculations have a wide margin of error and it's not just extreme outliers but a good 5-12% of people who fall into the 'substantially lower than would otherwise be anticipated' group. (I have no justification for those numbers it's a guess based on a very skewed sample of people whose results I've seen or heard about.)
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:23 AM   #55
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SS - That is a good point about the BMR. It is still a calculation based on a population dynamic that is being applied to an individual. Perhaps more accurate than the online calculators since it is based off a more accurate reading of weight and body composition but a calculation none-the-less.
It was a bit entertaining when I told the guy I'd calculated my body fat % online and there was a wide margin of error, and I wasn't sure of the accuracy. He said, "All those calculations work for someone...somewhere...just usually not for people like you and me!"
The website I used (the one Ntombi recommended) has a schedule for Berlin! You could go continental!!
The body fat calculator that worked best for me was the one on Active. I already have an account with them from signing up for races and such, so I don't know if you need an account to aces it or if you just search "body fat calculator" and pick the one that is on Active's website. But that's the search I did and I tried several to get my range.
Of course, I have no way of knowing how much LBM I've lost since 1-1-13. The guy at the testing place said that, on average, most people lost 2.5# LBM for ever 10# they "lose". I didn't ask, but should have, how one prevents LBM loss but I suspect the answer would be to increase exercise and strength training.
My activity level will be increasing through the summer, by necessity. My 1/2 marathon is on Aug 10, horse show season is in full swing and I need to get the old man fit for our full format in Rebecca, which involves, among other things, a 10 mile ride, some of which is at top speed over jumps. We both need to be strong and fit for that. Plus summer means making hay, gardening, fencing and pasture work, etc.
I will see how things go and how I feel when I hit 146. I'm not against going lower, but neither am I willing to beat my head against an unattainable goal and make myself miserable if I am liking what I see and the number on the scale just isn't what I think it should be. But if I hit 146 and I don't like what I see, I know there is room to go lower too.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:38 AM   #56
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Yennie, thank you so much for sharing this. After reading your test results, I got REALLY inspired about calculating a more accurate, and possibly realistic, goal weight. Since I'm crazy OCD about excel spreadsheets and numbers, I crunched and crunched.

The first month I started dieting and doing a heavy duty kettlebell workout, I lost 13 lbs of fat, but gained 3 lbs of muscle mass. The 2 following months, I lost 6-7 lbs each month of fat and gained half a pound each month of muscle mass. Last month when I did minimal kettlebells to speed weight loss, I lost 8 lbs of fat, but also lost 1 lb of lean muscle mass. Since I have decided to continue with experimenting with speedier fat loss rather than doing formal exercise, based on the past month, I am anticipating an additional loss of 1 lb of muscle mass for every 7 lbs of fat I lose. That sounds moderately consistent with the body fat tester who said people lose 2.5 LBM for every 10 lbs. YMMV.

My current Lean Body Mass (LBM) is 109.
If I continue to lose 1 lb of LBM for every 7 lbs, by the time I get to 142, my LBM will be 102.

For a relatively fit woman, body fat percentage should be 21% to 24%.

The formula for ideal weight based on LBM is:
LBM/(1 - desired BF%)
LBM/(1 - .21) = 102/.79 = 129
LBM/(1 - .24) = 102/.76 = 134

So at 102 lbs of LBM, my ideal weight range is 129 to 134. Ergo, I'm going to change my goal weight to 130... for the time being.

At 109 lbs of LBM, my ideal weight range is 137 to 143.

At 140 lbs, I am going to recalculate my LBM or do the hydro test. If I'm around 102 LBM, I might continue to 130 and then start lifting weights again, which then will push my weight up to the 137-143 range, but I'll be fine with that since it will be added muscle. If, at 140, my LBM is closer to 109, I'll probably call goal at 140.

Of course, all this depends on how I instictively feel when I get there. I just like having a goal to shoot for.

Thanks again for everyone's input on this, and to Yennie for sharing your results.

p.s. You need to change your Avatar stats to say 5'3"! Own that inch, girl!!!
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:13 AM   #57
Way too much time on my hands!
 
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Yennie found my lost inch!
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:50 PM   #58
Blabbermouth!!!
 
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Start Date: 2/21/12- Low carb (199lbs) 3/28/12 JUDDD (189lbs)
Well I'm in the 5'2" club and I'm shrinking as my disc space disappears

I am at 125 as of this morning and I must be what they call "skinny fat" because I think I look terrible once the clothing comes off. The loose skin aside for the moment, but my stomach pooch is still pretty substantial. I know the pooch is partly loose skin too, but I don't think I'm physically capable of the kind of exercise that would be required to make the kind of change that I would like to see. I think I would need to lose another 10 pounds- at least, but I think I've already lost a lot of lean muscle because I really don't look or feel strong. My legs and arms look scrawny and I used to have very toned legs (I walk around in those stilettos 9 hours a day/ 5 days a week ) All this to say I'm going to stay put for now, but I'd like to feel better about my appearance, but don't want to compromise my health by losing more lean muscle
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<---- Before Carly
10.0 lbs lost on LC/low cal. (2/21/12-3/27/12)
65.8 lbs lost on JUDDD (3/28/12- 4/18/13)
75.8 lbs were evicted in less than 14 months!
Called goal on 2/5/13 at 126.8. I can wear size 4P!

See my before and after pictures
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/we...ore-after.html
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:04 PM   #59
Big Yapper!!!!
 
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I'm worried about that a little too now, Carly. I wonder how you can prevent that, as Yennie wondered...losing LBM, that is. I guess I could start weight-training now, as opposed to waiting until I've gotten closer to goal. I would have to jump some huge "hurdles" to get over the laziness that's set in though.

ETA: Thank you so much for sharing your experience and results, Yennie. It is absolutely fascinating. I may google it for my area.

Last edited by Librarygirl; 06-13-2013 at 05:07 PM..
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:11 PM   #60
Blabbermouth!!!
 
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Yes, weight training is the best way to preserve--or build--LBM. That and getting enough protein are key.
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