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-   -   Is it ok to do 2 DD in a row? (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/juddd/805654-ok-do-2-dd-row.html)

dave8274 06-07-2013 05:03 AM

Is it ok to do 2 DD in a row?
 
I have an event coming up that falls on a DD. I would like to switch that to an UD. It seems to me that the best way to do that would be to do DDs in a row before it, but I'm not sure what the metabolic consequences would be. Anyone had experience with this?

KeirasMom 06-07-2013 05:13 AM

Some have done it and not had a problem with it though it's not recommended. It's better to either just do two UDs, or you could throw in a MD (60% on the calculator) between your last DD and the UD. I think Pat experimented with it in the past and saw no better losses.

SlowSure 06-07-2013 05:18 AM

Advice tends to vary with how long you've been JUDDDing. If you're in your early days, then do 2 UDs and get back to your rotations thereafter. It's not worth the messing around it causes because it's not always good to do 2 DDs (too many variables to comment).

Don't try and balance the books by reducing calories on the UDs, just have the 2 UDs and move back to your rotations.

If you're going to have to switch on a regular basis, then once induction is over, it's worth looking at MD but not if it's early days for you. (MD is more a psychological prop than a big difference, I feel.)

Some other people will probably chime in. :)

dave8274 06-07-2013 05:28 AM

Thanks. I've only been doing it for a week, though before I started I was at a very low carb level and already fat adapted, so it's been very easy. I've seen great results in my 1st week (down 6.6 lbs.), and really haven't struggled through DDs. I can do 2 UDs if that's best, the thought crossed my mind but I was afraid it would hurt my momentum :)

SlowSure 06-07-2013 05:33 AM

In that case, :welcome: dave8274 and apologies if I missed you on the :newbie: intro thread. :o

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ju...rt-2-a-42.html

Especially as you're starting out, the calorie difference isn't worth the disruption. Enjoy your UDs.

DeltaBigBoy 06-07-2013 09:39 AM

I routinely do two DDs in a row. I like my days off work to both be UDs. My normal cycle is UD UD DD DD UD DD DD. I always make sure I eat enough on UDs and eat zero calories on DDs. I have no issues with it. I have read study after study and 95% of anything I have ever read suggests your metabolism doesn't slow down till after 72 hours(some say 60) of no food and then it's only by around 8-10%. I routinely go 60 hours. I certainly think doing it on a rare occasion wouldn't make any difference. I'd love to hear what the potential negatives would be?

LoCarbGal 06-07-2013 09:47 AM

I'm no expert, but I really don't believe there would be any real metabolic problems with 2 DDs in a row. Especially for guys. Perhaps we women would have more hormonal issues, but I'm not even sure about that. Probably yet another YMMV thing.

My real issue with it would be how uncomfortable would I be trying to deny myself for that long. If you can do it and not have it be too uncomfortable, it works with your schedule, and helps you lose, I say GO FOR IT!

Whitlin' 06-08-2013 08:24 PM

Hmmm... why do 2 DDs if all you are trying to do is change what happens on one day, just a week into JUDDD? If not 2 UDs, then a UD followed by a MD as the Alternate Day book says, or the reverse, and you continue on without a problem. MD being a mid-range number of calories between your UD and your DD.

Other things may work fine, and it's not a huge issue, but it is a departure from Alternate Day/JUDDD, just as you're getting used to it.

When I use the word "problem" I'm not so worried about courting a slowed metabolism, though everyone would be different on that and I suppose there are those who might be affected after only 2 days.

What I mean is courting the feeling of deprivation. Avoiding deprivation is my whole point of sticking with Alternate Day/JUDDD. It's really JUDDD's promise in a nutshell. If I didn't have that problem, I could do lots of different diets. It's very simple for me. 2 days of DD calories instead of one double my chance of a sense of deprivation, which I know from keen, stinging experience is a very negative influence for me and can ruin my plans.

Yennie 06-08-2013 09:25 PM

I agree that, for a man, 2 DDs would likely not be a problem from a metabolic standpoint. I think women's hormonal issues would make it problematic to recommend on a regular basis. Having said that, Steph has been doing 2 DDs in a row and not having a problem. I don't believe the current thinking is that 2 DDs in a row = starvation mode. I think the recommendation to not do 2 DDs in a row comes from the fact that most people, especially fasting newbies, would be so starving that the 2nd DD would be miserable, or the next day would be UUAD or maybe not even make it through the 2nd DD. Which would lead to a psychological cycle that is not conducive to successful dieting & weight loss. So, for me, I've always viewed the recommendation to not do 2 DDs in a row more as a mental health precaution than anything else. So if you're old hat at this, or, like Scott, routinely fast for more than 36 hours - knock yourself out!! :)

deedee 06-17-2013 08:53 AM

Quote:

I agree that, for a man, 2 DDs would likely not be a problem from a metabolic standpoint. I think women's hormonal issues would make it problematic to recommend on a regular basis.
I've been contemplating adopting Scott's rotations above myself, and I'm wondering what the hormonal issues would be that would make it problematic for a woman? It's not a subject I know that much about so any info people have would be appreciated!

I've done 2 DD's in the past and I was fine, but never on a continual basis. I think I'll be trying the M-D, T-D, W-U, Th-D, F-D, Sa-U, Su-U routine this week and seeing how it goes.

SlowSure 06-17-2013 10:03 AM

There are many variables that would influence this. My comment was specifically about the OP's original post and in the context of that (particularly as his Best Beloved is also JUDDDing and would be doing this in concert).

I think that it's implausibly difficult to separate out the relative advantages and disadvantages of consecutive DDs on a regular basis for each sub-group that might be interested in this.

There are some Intermittent Fasting concerns around the issue of maintaining muscle (never mind putting on muscle). Standard dietary advice (for what it's worth) is that we need to consume some protein every day. One of the 'to be researched' issues that regularly crops up in Q&A with nutritional ketosis researchers (notably, Volok and Phinney) is whether the moderate protein intake actually needs to be spread out during the day in order to ensure that the protein is available for protein synthesis and muscle preservation rather than consuming it all in one meal.

If you do DD sequences on a regular basis, some people (by no means all) may find that a disproportionate amount of their scale loss is LBM rather than bodyfat. (This is an apprehension: there is little definitive data as the majority of weight-loss reviews involve calorie-restricted, low-fat diets so can't necessarily be extrapolated to what people are doing on JUDDD.)

There are small-scale studies that indicate that (as others have said) intermittent fasting may have different outcomes for men/women and for women of child-bearing age/post-menopausal women. It's an open question whether it's substantially different to the impact of standard, chronic, calorie reduction but it is claimed that IF has a profound influence on circadian rhythms and this affects not only cortisol levels (and can increase associated markers such as blood pressure/insulin sensitivity) but also fertility (and female hormone issues leading to acne, insomnia etc.).

I don't think the research in this area is clear enough to make definitive predictions about whether or not regular practice of consecutive DDs is better/worse than other weight loss interventions. However, there are sufficient reports to make me wary of it for women of child-bearing age.

Everyone will have their own n=1 in this area as we are our own test subjects.

Flutter 06-17-2013 10:12 AM

I think I have officially found the often talked about JUDDD calm. Whatever works and is going to keep you happy and remain motivated, OP! It is only one day were talking about, right? If you want to do 2 DDs and won't be ravishing or unhappy about it, go for it! I have always been a "by the books" kind of girl and it has bit me in the tooshkie many times before. Now I just find that I do whatever I need to and move on with rotations. You can always just do a higher calorie DD if you don't want 2 UDs or a MD. Whatever you decide, you will be fine! Just move on again tomorrow! :)

deedee 06-17-2013 11:43 AM

Quote:

I don't think the research in this area is clear enough to make definitive predictions about whether or not regular practice of consecutive DDs is better/worse than other weight loss interventions. However, there are sufficient reports to make me wary of it for women of child-bearing age.
Hmmm, thanks for that information SlowSure. It sounds like a complicated issue. I'll proceed cautiously since I already have a ton of hormonal issues.

Librarygirl 06-17-2013 03:14 PM

The only "problem" I have with routine multiple DDs (not the occasional 2 in a row, if you can do it) is that it's not JUDDD. The swing between the two days is what makes JUDDD, JUDDD. I have a problem with people coming here and saying they're doing the diet and are actually using it to advocate a very low, low calorie diet. I'm not pointing fingers, but that is the worry I have. DDs are not DDs if there aren't any UDs...it's calling starving. :)

Pami 06-17-2013 05:55 PM

I've done JUDDD for 4 weeks today.
So far, I've had 5 pairs of consecutive DDs.
YIKES- I didn't realize I'd done it that many times!
In my case, I think it's OK to do it, as long as I don't post about it :hyst:

deedee 06-17-2013 06:13 PM

Quote:

The only "problem" I have with routine multiple DDs (not the occasional 2 in a row, if you can do it) is that it's not JUDDD. The swing between the two days is what makes JUDDD, JUDDD. I have a problem with people coming here and saying they're doing the diet and are actually using it to advocate a very low, low calorie diet. I'm not pointing fingers, but that is the worry I have. DDs are not DDs if there aren't any UDs...it's calling starving
That's true, if a person is only doing DD's, but if a person is doing a different variation of U and D days I don't think that's a problem? But maybe that's just me.

Librarygirl 06-18-2013 04:18 AM

No, it's not a problem. I'm not the JUDDD police lol. :D Sorry for the above rant. Carry on with your regularly scheduled programing. ;)

ETA: Also, I meant to say *called* not calling lol.

Yennie 06-18-2013 08:11 AM

Cindy,
I think you have a good point though, even without donning the "JUDDD police" hat ;)
There are lots of different ways we can make our own individual tweaks, becoming our own n=1, as SS said. There is nothing wrong with that, to a point.
Most, but not all, of our most successful gals (and guys) did/do JUDDD as written. I'm not saying it can't work with tweaks, surely it can, but if you make too many tweaks then its not JUDDD anymore. It becomes a challenge, I think, to help people who come here requesting assistance and then come to find the changes they've made to the protocol make it essentially unrecognizable as JUDDD. I'm NOT pointing fingers at OP, or anyone in particular, it just seems there is a subset of individuals who come and say "Help! JUDDD isn't working for me" and then on further investigating they're not actually JUDDDing.
I am NOT saying this is wrong - hello, avid potato hacker right here and that's technically off protocol. But it does make it tough to help folks who aren't working the protocol and then say the protocol isn't working. So I share Cindy's frustration. Also not trying to be the JUDDD police, just making a follow up comment to Cindy's observation.

Librarygirl 06-18-2013 08:57 AM

Well, even if what a person is doing is working to get the weight off, I want to stress that they may not be getting the health benefits of JUDDD. Obviously, multiple DDs will probably get the weight off, but could result in more lost lean muscle, decrease in metabolism, and may not activate SIRTs. :)

deedee 06-18-2013 09:10 AM

Quote:

Well, even if what a person is doing is working to get the weight off, I want to stress that they may not be getting the health benefits of JUDDD. Obviously, multiple DDs will probably get the weight off, but could result in more lost lean muscle, decrease in metabolism, and may not activate SIRTs
That's a good point Cindy, and I'm actually very curious about that. I've been reading older threads, and a lot of people do many variations on JUDDD (including regular MD's or extra DD's) and see positive results, but I haven't seen that much discussion of the other health benefits. I know for myself since starting JUDDD my health markers have improved markedly, including A1C and lowered triglycerides. On JUDDD, we are fasting for roughly 40 hours. Would a 60-64 hour fast actually decrease the health benefits?

I don't think this is something I'm going to do, but I find the discussion interesting!

Librarygirl 06-18-2013 09:20 AM

I said, *may*. I'm not a JUDDD expert either (as well as not being police). :D Although, *more* is not always better.:dunno:

My aunt used to regularly fast for 2 weeks at a time with only water and tea as sustenance. She said it was the only thing that worked for her to keep her weight down. I remember that vividly as a child.

deedee 06-18-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

I said, *may*. I'm not a JUDDD expert either (as well as not being police). Although, *more* is not always better.
Oh I wasn't expecting you to have the answers! I was just voicing some thoughts.

I know quite a few people who have regularly done "cleanses" that involved fasting. Even those who didn't need to lose weight but felt healthier after doing so.

jenericstewart 06-18-2013 09:34 AM

i've tried a lot of variations of JUDDD, and i don't think that 2 in a row would mess up your metabolism. now if you did it for a week, yes, there could be problems. everyone's different.

Whitlin' 06-18-2013 01:40 PM

Regular MDs have never been a variation. They precede the publication of the 2008 book in Dr. Johnson's online advice, and have been included as a part of Alternate Day/JUDDD beginning with the first edition of the book and following editions.

There are many different variations of Intermittent Fasting, of which multiple low-calorie days might well be one. But multiple low-calorie days, by definition, could not be a variation of Alternate Day, since Alternate Day is specific to no more than single days of low-calorie intake.

To find information or studies on restricted calorie consumption of two days or more, you'd have to research other avenues of Intermittent Fasting.

Librarygirl 06-18-2013 03:23 PM

:goodpost: Thanks for summing up what I was trying to say, in a more succint manner.


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