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Old 05-18-2013, 03:12 AM   #1
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Question about Insulin and JUDD

Hi, friendly folks! I have read around a bit on this forum and I am impressed by the support you give one another.

I am currently doing the Carb Nite Solution, but I am considering a switch to JUDD.

In fact, I did a DD yesterday, right after a carb nite, just to see how it would feel. (It was "okay", I have fasted before so I knew what to expect)

My concern before plunging in to JUDD full-force is may "hang ups" from my years of focusing on carbs instead of calories.

I am wondering how JUDD or Alternate Day Dieting people "explain away" the concerns Low Carbers have about daily insulin swings.

Is there supposedly some "protection" from the insulin swings from the fasting?

Any explanation would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:12 AM   #2
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I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable will come along shortly. All I can give you is my own experience. When I started JUDDD, I had issues with (undiagnosed) hypoglycemia. If I didn't eat every couple of hours, I would get shaky, nauseated, and mean. I was really afraid that I wouldn't be able to fast because of it.

My first day went pretty well, and since then, I've had NO issues. I've been doing some form of fasting now for over a year and a half, and I don't feel much different on a fasting day than on an eating day.

There are also a couple of JUDDD rockstars (Carly comes to mind) who have been able to get off their diabetes medication completely since doing JUDDD. There must be something to it medically that repairs whatever mechanism causes the peaks and valleys and stabilizes blood sugar over time with fasting.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:42 AM   #3
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Hi, Stash'sWife. Check out the sticky thread above called Benefits of Alternate Day Fasting/CRON.

To answer your question partly, intermittent fasting, of which Alternate Day is the "basic format" (quoted from The British Journal of Diabetes & Vascular Disease), has a healthy effect on insulin response. It improves circulating glucose and lipid levels. It improves insulin levels and insulin sensitivity. It improves pancreatic function.

Now, on a given early day of trying Alternate Day fasting, might someone's insulin swings make them feel shaky? ... ... Maybe. I hope Dawn's response helped you there. But for the long haul, this is very healthy for insulin response and pancreatic health in general.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:52 AM   #4
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My type II diabetes has been reversed. I took 2 injections a day before JUDDD and my A1C was 9.8 now it is under 5.6 with no medication at all. If you google Dr. mercola he has an article on his site about fasting and diabetes.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:37 AM   #5
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I think there are a lot of factors at play here, and different people have different responses. I remember reading through old threads when I first started JUDDD because I had similar concerns, though I never took insulin I am a diabetic and was worried about hypos.

PirateJenny, I believe, had some negative experiences with her bg dipping too low and I think prevented that by breaking her fast with some small amount of food. But then others, like Carly above, have had nothing but absolutely positive experiences! I think in his original version of the book, Dr. Johnson actually said this diet is not for diabetics, which is a shame because it works wonderfully for some people.
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:36 PM   #6
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I appreciate the responses.

It is just really messing with my head to think it is "okay" to return to a "regular" frequency of carbohydrate ingestion.

Especially to consider eating a potato every day!



Today I am toeing the line further by shooting for my UD calories while still staying under 30 g carbs for the day...this way I am staying "on plan" with CNS. I need to read more about how it can possibly be that you can eat high glycemic foods daily and be healthy before I can really dive in.

I know you said to read the links above in "benefits of fasting", but do any specifically address the insulin issue? Do any "take on" the idea that re-current daily spikes are not a bad thing?

Sorry to dwell on this, but the "secret" to the Carb Nite Solution is regulating (saving) that strong insulin response for only one day a week.

I promise, I am not trying to be difficult!

Thanks for any input.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:11 PM   #7
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So, I don't know anything about the diet you're currently following but I do know a lot about physiology, insulin and metabolism so...

Unless you are actually Diabetic (type 1 or 2), Insulin resistant or have metabolic syndrome, insulin spikes are not actually bad for you. It is a digestive mechanism that has developed to metabolize & utilize carbohydrates (glucose) as fuel. I realize insulin spikes have been branded as evil by the low carb pushers, but they are no more metabolically dysfunctional than being in long term ketosis (remember when low carb first took off & everyone was convinced all the LCers were going to die/wreck their kidneys/etc from long term ketosis?)

In a metabolically normal individual, when you eat carbohydrates (regardless of the type), they are digested to glucose & fructose (both single molecules) and then absorbed in the small intestines and enter the blood stream. The pancreas begins to detect the presence of glucose in the blood stream and begins to release insulin from the beta-cells. Insulin is a necessary co-factor to allow for the intracellular transport of glucose. Without insulin, glucose can't get into the cells & it sits in the blood stream being useless (well, mostly useless, not totally useless). Once in the cell, glucose enters the TCA cycle, ATP is produced and cellular energy is generated. At a cellular level this is the hydrostatic power plant - ATP is used as energy in all cellular reactions and glucose is an important ingredient in the steps leading up to the production of ATP.

The magnitude of the insulin response depends on how much glucose is absorbed & how fast. A very large dump of glucose (simple carbs, which don't take a long time to be broken down in the stomach & intestines can cause this) will lead to a commensurate insulin release. A slower, lower glucose release (complex carbs, carbs eaten with protein) will result in a slower, smaller insulin trickle.

The first "problem" is that a large glucose spike leads to a large insulin release which can result in a rebound hypoglycemia. Too much insulin results in too much glucose uptake into cells which results in low blood sugar which makes you feel like garbage. Most people respond to this state by eating something with a high glycemic load to rapidly bring their blood glucose back up, which then results in another insulin spike...lather, rinse, repeat... The "faulty" mechanism here is that the rapid insulin dump causes such rapid,massive intracellular glucose uptake that the body doesn't have time to regulate blood sugar and shut it down before it gets too low. Very much like when you eat too fast, you tend to overeat because you outeat your body's ability to signal satiety.

The second "problem" with insulin/glucose metabolism is that, in today's modern society, we are overfed. So assume you eat a normal, balanced meal with proteins, fats & carbs. The glucose ends up in your blood, insulin is released in a normal fashion, the cells take up all the glucose they need and when they're full, they stop. But there is still extra glucose floating around in the blood. So the liver, among other places, says - Hey, we have leftovers! And just like we would do if we had dinner leftovers, the body packages up the leftovers & puts them away for a rainy day. In our case, that's the fat! Now, if you never ate your leftovers, your fridge would get pretty full. Since we tend to not "eat our leftovers" we get fat. Instead of allowing the body to draw from those stores, we eat again, and again, and again... We did not evolve, from a metabolic standpoint, to have this much food available to us. Our bodies don't know how to throw out our leftovers. We have to help them out.

So insulin & insulin spikes themselves are not inherently evil, its the choices we make about what we put in our mouths and how our bodies are programmed to respond.

Now, having said all that, there is individual variation. Some people can't handle carbs, some can't handle wheat, sugar, corn, etc without making themselves sick or unleashing the binge monster.

I'm gathering, based on what you've said, that you're pretty low carb right now (less than 30g?) The people who have switched from LC to JUDDD tend to reintroduce carbs slowly if they're interested in doing so. Some JBs are still LC.

You're going to have to make sensible choices about your carbs or suffer the potential consequences. Switching to JUDDD doesn't necessarily give you permission to eat your UD calories in the form of a box of Krispy Kremes...if you're interested in reintroducing carbs then you will likely need to do so slowly and sensibly. Most people gain 1-4# in weight just from replenishing their glycogen stores and the accompanying water when reintroducing carbs. You should probably expect that bounce, although JUDDD is not linear and you'll learn to love (or hate) the JUDDD bounce anyway.

Only you can decide if the mental aspect of eating carbs is something you can adjust to. As Nancy likes to say, "JUDDD is about calories, JUDDD doesn't care what you eat. But your body might."
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:39 PM   #8
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So that extra food (leftovers) put away in the fridge (body), gets eaten when we fast. Perfect.

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Old 05-18-2013, 05:49 PM   #9
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Cindy,
Exactly right!
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
So, I don't know anything about the diet you're currently following but I do know a lot about physiology, insulin and metabolism so...

Unless you are actually Diabetic (type 1 or 2), Insulin resistant or have metabolic syndrome, insulin spikes are not actually bad for you. It is a digestive mechanism that has developed to metabolize & utilize carbohydrates (glucose) as fuel. I realize insulin spikes have been branded as evil by the low carb pushers, but they are no more metabolically dysfunctional than being in long term ketosis (remember when low carb first took off & everyone was convinced all the LCers were going to die/wreck their kidneys/etc from long term ketosis?)

In a metabolically normal individual, when you eat carbohydrates (regardless of the type), they are digested to glucose & fructose (both single molecules) and then absorbed in the small intestines and enter the blood stream. The pancreas begins to detect the presence of glucose in the blood stream and begins to release insulin from the beta-cells. Insulin is a necessary co-factor to allow for the intracellular transport of glucose. Without insulin, glucose can't get into the cells & it sits in the blood stream being useless (well, mostly useless, not totally useless). Once in the cell, glucose enters the TCA cycle, ATP is produced and cellular energy is generated. At a cellular level this is the hydrostatic power plant - ATP is used as energy in all cellular reactions and glucose is an important ingredient in the steps leading up to the production of ATP.

The magnitude of the insulin response depends on how much glucose is absorbed & how fast. A very large dump of glucose (simple carbs, which don't take a long time to be broken down in the stomach & intestines can cause this) will lead to a commensurate insulin release. A slower, lower glucose release (complex carbs, carbs eaten with protein) will result in a slower, smaller insulin trickle.

The first "problem" is that a large glucose spike leads to a large insulin release which can result in a rebound hypoglycemia. Too much insulin results in too much glucose uptake into cells which results in low blood sugar which makes you feel like garbage. Most people respond to this state by eating something with a high glycemic load to rapidly bring their blood glucose back up, which then results in another insulin spike...lather, rinse, repeat... The "faulty" mechanism here is that the rapid insulin dump causes such rapid,massive intracellular glucose uptake that the body doesn't have time to regulate blood sugar and shut it down before it gets too low. Very much like when you eat too fast, you tend to overeat because you outeat your body's ability to signal satiety.

The second "problem" with insulin/glucose metabolism is that, in today's modern society, we are overfed. So assume you eat a normal, balanced meal with proteins, fats & carbs. The glucose ends up in your blood, insulin is released in a normal fashion, the cells take up all the glucose they need and when they're full, they stop. But there is still extra glucose floating around in the blood. So the liver, among other places, says - Hey, we have leftovers! And just like we would do if we had dinner leftovers, the body packages up the leftovers & puts them away for a rainy day. In our case, that's the fat! Now, if you never ate your leftovers, your fridge would get pretty full. Since we tend to not "eat our leftovers" we get fat. Instead of allowing the body to draw from those stores, we eat again, and again, and again... We did not evolve, from a metabolic standpoint, to have this much food available to us. Our bodies don't know how to throw out our leftovers. We have to help them out.

So insulin & insulin spikes themselves are not inherently evil, its the choices we make about what we put in our mouths and how our bodies are programmed to respond.

Now, having said all that, there is individual variation. Some people can't handle carbs, some can't handle wheat, sugar, corn, etc without making themselves sick or unleashing the binge monster.

I'm gathering, based on what you've said, that you're pretty low carb right now (less than 30g?) The people who have switched from LC to JUDDD tend to reintroduce carbs slowly if they're interested in doing so. Some JBs are still LC.

You're going to have to make sensible choices about your carbs or suffer the potential consequences. Switching to JUDDD doesn't necessarily give you permission to eat your UD calories in the form of a box of Krispy Kremes...if you're interested in reintroducing carbs then you will likely need to do so slowly and sensibly. Most people gain 1-4# in weight just from replenishing their glycogen stores and the accompanying water when reintroducing carbs. You should probably expect that bounce, although JUDDD is not linear and you'll learn to love (or hate) the JUDDD bounce anyway.

Only you can decide if the mental aspect of eating carbs is something you can adjust to. As Nancy likes to say, "JUDDD is about calories, JUDDD doesn't care what you eat. But your body might."
Thanks for the informative and thorough response.

The protocol I am on is Kiefer's Carb Nite Solution, and reading about it was my first foray into "insulin's reaction to carbohydrate, in itself, is not only NOT evil, but can even be useful".

The protocol calls for very low carb for six out of seven days of the week. On the night of day seven, you eat a bunch of simple carbs.

The idea is to manipulate the insulin spike (and leptin levels, and other chemical reactions that he claimed happened on such a protocol) to your advantage.

Now I am reading that Johnson has "placed his bets" on something called SIRT1.

Am I supposed to "bank" on SIRT1 or on Kiefer's "manipulating insulin"?

My dilemma is NOT that I feel eating carbs is "always bad in every case".

The dilemma is which side of the 'frequency argument' to come down on.

I appreciate your thorough post. I am going to continue to read more about fasting, and about SIRT1. It sounds so "gimmik-y" to me to "turn on" a gene. However, if it works, it sounds like something sustainable for me. I would like to buy into it, but I also bought in to "ALL CARBS ARE ALL BAD ALL THE TIME BECAUSE THEY CAUSE INSULIN SPIKES", and that turned out to be wrong...

Sorry, I guess this is really a question I will need to answer for myself with research. I just wondered how former LC'rs felt when transitioning to this plan, and how they "justified" the different methodology. To hear that many remained low carb is interesting as much as to learn some did not.

Thanks for letting me voice all this on here!!
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:24 PM   #11
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There is a lot of very credible research validating the ability to turn on genes through dietary manipulation.
I think you need to figure out what is going to work best for your body. There are many roads up the mountain.
There isn't really any "justification" behind different modalities. Once you understand how the different programs work with your particular physiology, you can optimize & combine to create the exact protocol that will work best for you. Not to say that there is not a psychological component as well - some people can't handle the limitations of LC, so they JUDDD. Some people can't handle the restriction of JUDDD DDs so they LC & eat every day. Some people combine JUDDD & LC because they enjoy the added health benefits of IF but can't handle the carbs.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
There is a lot of very credible research validating the ability to turn on genes through dietary manipulation.
I think you need to figure out what is going to work best for your body. There are many roads up the mountain.
There isn't really any "justification" behind different modalities. Once you understand how the different programs work with your particular physiology, you can optimize & combine to create the exact protocol that will work best for you. Not to say that there is not a psychological component as well - some people can't handle the limitations of LC, so they JUDDD. Some people can't handle the restriction of JUDDD DDs so they LC & eat every day. Some people combine JUDDD & LC because they enjoy the added health benefits of IF but can't handle the carbs.


Yes. This sounds quite reasonable. Thank you. I totally get this.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and thorough responses.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:59 PM   #13
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Yes. This sounds quite reasonable. Thank you. I totally get this.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and thorough responses.
You're quite welcome. That's what we're here for. It can be hard to weed out the credible from the garbage & so many "experts" don't have a clue.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stash'sWife View Post
I am going to continue to read more about fasting, and about SIRT1. It sounds so "gimmik-y" to me to "turn on" a gene. However, if it works, it sounds like something sustainable for me. I would like to buy into it, but I also bought in to "ALL CARBS ARE ALL BAD ALL THE TIME BECAUSE THEY CAUSE INSULIN SPIKES", and that turned out to be wrong..
Yes, we up-regulate and down-regulate gene expression all the time, it's necessary to our survival. I've no idea how well the SIRT1 complex of interactions is mapped out, my feeling is that although there are interesting snippets of information about it, it's in the nature of research that later work might modify that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
There is a lot of very credible research validating the ability to turn on genes through dietary manipulation.
I think you need to figure out what is going to work best for your body. There are many roads up the mountain.
There isn't really any "justification" behind different modalities. Once you understand how the different programs work with your particular physiology, you can optimize & combine to create the exact protocol that will work best for you. .
I couldn't agree more.

I feel a lot of public confidence has been lost in the authority of governmental and Public Health organisations since the down-rating of the low fat diet. It feels like low fat was a post-dissemination field trial conducted on populations who are now paying the price for it in many ways and also looking for more information while distrustful of the official sources.

I'm not surprised that people feel adrift in an ocean of competing theories of weight management and what is best for their own and their families' health.
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:24 AM   #15
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I feel a lot of public confidence has been lost in the authority of governmental and Public Health organisations since the down-rating of the low fat diet. It feels like low fat was a post-dissemination field trial conducted on populations who are now paying the price for it in many ways and also looking for more information while distrustful of the official sources.

I'm not surprised that people feel adrift in an ocean of competing theories of weight management and what is best for their own and their families' health.
Well, EXACTLY!

I was so upset after reading Good Calories, Bad Calories.

Now I am just...I don't know... adrift, like you said!
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:12 AM   #16
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Yennie, what a wonderfully informative post! I do have diabetes (type II) but I feel like I'm constantly learning new things about the way our bodies work. I wish I'd learned all of this years ago!
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