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-   -   Breaking the fast? AKA - calling all science nerds... (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/juddd/798927-breaking-fast-aka-calling-all-science-nerds.html)

Yennie 03-07-2013 07:49 AM

Breaking the fast? AKA - calling all science nerds...
 
So, I've been thinking about this lately and I'd like to put it out there for you all to share you thoughts, experiences and opinions based on the reading & research you've done. I know we have quite a few well studied friends here, as well as many with lots of experience so here goes.

I'm wondering about the timing of breaking our fast on UDs. I'll give you the scenario that started this thought process:

Th-Sun: Off plan but not out of control
M: Weigh in - same as Th (yay!) Potato DD still under 440 cals
T: In the morn, hubby says "Lets go to <fave BBQ rest> tonight for dinner." I say, "Self, lets bank cals so we can pig out at dinner & order those fried onions as a side dish - yum!" so I eat basically only 250 calories all day until dinner Tuesday night, around 6pm, which clocked in at a whooping but incredibly delicious 1678 calories! Still puts me at target for my UDs of 1990.
W: Low cal DD, fasting til dinner then a meal under 440 cals.
Th: (Today) drinking my coffee & thinking about posting this thread, planning a more spread out UD.

So, my thought process was this: If we buy that potato only days and/or days under 500 cals are "fasting", then I essentially fasted from 9pm on Sunday to 6pm on Tuesday. This is 45 hours of fasting.

I've seen, and even myself written, "fast for 36-40 hours". I went 5 hours too long. Does this put me in starvation mode so that my body viewed by pig out session not as breaking the fast but as calories to save in preparation for the next fast, ie: Starvation mode?

And, if this is the case, if a situation arises where we WANT to bank our calories for a big meal like a special dinner out, how many calories would it take in the morning to consider the fast broken enough to not put us into starvation mode and defeat the purpose of JUDDD? Because if we're calling DDs under 500 "fasting" then would not the breaking of the fast need to involve more than 500 cals?

We say "Dont do 2 DDs in a row, it will put you in starvation mode." If we consider 2 DDs to be (example) from 7-8pm on UD Sunday through eating breakfast on Wednesday (assuming M/Tu were both DDs) that's approximately 58 hours of fasting...where do we draw the line of how long is too long and how long is ok?

I know our bodies "can't tell time" but, at some point they obviously can because starvation mode kicks in?

I think it was an old SNL Character who used to say, "Talk amongst yourselves!" I'm really interested in what you all think about this. And lucky for you I now have to put down the computer and leave for work or this would probably be longer!!!

ETA: I've also thought about how the Fast 5 and the 8 hour eating windows fit into this scenario, because it would essentially be the same thing, right? A 40-48 hour fast from UD window to UD window? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this...

mom23kids 03-07-2013 07:53 AM

Really good question! I wonder if longer fasting perods are the reason some people stall on JUDDD :confused:

KeirasMom 03-07-2013 08:15 AM

I think the problem lies with the fact that our bodies are all so different. 36-40 hours is a guideline. Some enter starvation mode before that, and others much later. We've had JUDDDers who found that they don't lose unless they eat by a certain time on UDs (Nancy-gotsomeold comes to mind) and then others who often only eat at night on both UD and DD and do very well (Carly comes to mind).

I personally prefer to spread my meals out on an UD, but have a light breakfast and lunch, then a more substantial dinner. I have no idea if that's beneficial with my body or not. It's just how I prefer to do it.

No answers here, I'm afraid, but I'm interested to see what others say.

LoCarbGal 03-07-2013 08:16 AM

Boy, good questions Jen. I've wondered that too lately, in the context of having UDs where nearly all my calories have to be saved up for a big dinner/dessert. On those days, I feel like I'm doing another DD all day until dinnertime. Kind of like what you talked about Jen. Psychologically for me, it's tough to have 3 days in a row where I feel like I'm DDing it. Dinner on UD is satisfying, but I haven't been able to discern any kind of loss pattern or not.

I hope some of our more "science-y" BUDDDs will chime in on this!

b_lou_who 03-07-2013 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yennie (Post 16301251)
I've seen, and even myself written, "fast for 36-40 hours". I went 5 hours too long. Does this put me in starvation mode so that my body viewed by pig out session not as breaking the fast but as calories to save in preparation for the next fast, ie: Starvation mode?

As I recall from a number of things read, 40 hours is the optimal for fasting benefits, as in - you don't get any more benefits after that. So a handful of hours more isn't really going to do any harm, especially with consistent intermittent fasting, you just are not going to get anything more out of it for your health.

Yam-Yam 03-07-2013 08:44 AM

Great questions! Pat always talked about the piston-like effect of eating less one day, eating more the next and how it sets our metabolism on fire, burning up calories and stored fat.

Linda talked about not over-thinking the timing of your calorie intake. Just eat your DD calories on a DD and eat your UD calories on an UD. Keep it simple and your body will sort it out.

I've read books and articles by physicians and nutrition experts who say it takes about 5 days of fasting for the starvation mode to kick in for most people. But I've also read that the over-stressing kicks in at about 40 hours of fasting for some. :confused:

The beautiful thing about JUDD is that "fasting" does not have to mean 100% no calories. It can if you want it to and some people regularly eat nothing on their DDs. I've done it occasionally, but not often. IMHO, consuming 500 or less calories on the DD is helpful in preventing the over-stressing that leads to starvation and that dreaded lazy metabolism.

When we get into a routine of DD/UD rotations, our bodies learn what to expect. Adequate nourishment is coming on an UD whether you consume lots of calories at hour 36, 40, or whatever after the fast.

I've also read that it can be important WHAT you eat when you break your fast on the UD. Apparently just having calories from fat will not "break the fast." Protein and complex carbs do. So, if you are only having bullet proof coffee or coffee with cream, you are still technically in your fasted state.

A little oatmeal, some eggs with fruit, things like that will break the fast because the carbs with protein stimulate the release of insulin. I think I'm saying that right. (On DDs most people eat so few calories of things like that, that I assume that's why it still registers over the course of the day as "fasting")

Anyway, your body knows from the routine that more fuel is coming within the next 12 to 16 hours because your SIRT1 gene is activated. You've had a good night's sleep so the Leptin is flowing (leptin is apparently in charge of everything weight related and so much more). The hormone Leptin tells your brain that all is well and reminds it that 2 days ago you had plenty of nourishment and, according to schedule and routine, your body can expect plentiful nourishment today. No need to over-stress; No need to slow the metabolism and conserve. ( This reminds me of why Dr. J suggests at least 2 weeks worth of DD rotations is necessary to fully activate SIRT1)

In fact, that's when Leptin says "We're fine! We're great! We don't even need to hold on to every bit of this stored fat. We can let some of that go! And, we certainly have no need to store any more." The sirtuins shake hands with the Leptin and they agree.

OK, Jen! LOL! Wind me up and let me go! Your post was not long at all!:laugh: - Says the queen of verbosity. I'll stop now!

Flutter 03-07-2013 08:49 AM

:hyst: There goes Yam! You are TOO cute, yamster!!! :heart:

I'm glad you asked all this, yennie. I have been wondering this very thing myself lately. I like to eat all my UD calories from 1pm-7pm as a general rule. I was sure hoping I wasn't pushing my luck not eating until later most UDs. Looks like all may be just fine afterall. Yay!

vanilla_latte 03-07-2013 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yam-Yam (Post 16301431)
Your post was not long at all!:laugh: - Says the queen of verbosity. I'll stop now!

:hyst::hyst:

Yam!! :high5: I saw you were back, but hadn't said hello!

****
I've read where "starvation mode" doesn't kick in for weeks/months, and while I'm sure it's an individual thing, I can't see where it kicks in after a few hours or even days, IMHO. I know there was a thread awhile back on how many hours of fasting there should be with JUDDD, and I'd never understood from the website (don't have the book) that was supposed to be - just about the calories on the corresponding days.

I prefer to eat later in the day on both UDs and DDs, even though on UDs, I do spread it around during the day. Especially since I tend to undereat on my UDs. You'd think I'd do great on Fast 5, but I do like to have a couple of cups of coffee - with cream - in the morning. I do great during the day at work, it's when I get home that the munchies can set in.

Yam-Yam 03-07-2013 12:04 PM

Hey Vanilla!:hiya:

Yennie 03-07-2013 02:52 PM

Thanks for your thoughtful replies, everyone.
The week I outlined in my first post was my reality - those 4 days off plan were not out of control but they were definitely off plan...anyone see the picture of the chocolate finishers mug? ;)
Anyway, I weighed in today and I'm back at my lowest yet, 185.4, this is including a bounce to 187.2 last Thursday (before going off plan) and staying right at 187.2 on Monday having spent the previous 4 days off plan.
So, in a way, I guess I answered my own question. While I did not lose this week, I bounced unrelated to going off plan, held it and then lost back to my lowest setpoint after 2 DDs.
You guys are awesome.

svenskamae 03-07-2013 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yam-Yam (Post 16301431)
Great questions! Pat always talked about the piston-like effect of eating less one day, eating more the next and how it sets our metabolism on fire, burning up calories and stored fat.

Linda talked about not over-thinking the timing of your calorie intake. Just eat your DD calories on a DD and eat your UD calories on an UD. Keep it simple and your body will sort it out.

I've read books and articles by physicians and nutrition experts who say it takes about 5 days of fasting for the starvation mode to kick in for most people. But I've also read that the over-stressing kicks in at about 40 hours of fasting for some. :confused:

The beautiful thing about JUDD is that "fasting" does not have to mean 100% no calories. It can if you want it to and some people regularly eat nothing on their DDs. I've done it occasionally, but not often. IMHO, consuming 500 or less calories on the DD is helpful in preventing the over-stressing that leads to starvation and that dreaded lazy metabolism.

When we get into a routine of DD/UD rotations, our bodies learn what to expect. Adequate nourishment is coming on an UD whether you consume lots of calories at hour 36, 40, or whatever after the fast.

I've also read that it can be important WHAT you eat when you break your fast on the UD. Apparently just having calories from fat will not "break the fast." Protein and complex carbs do. So, if you are only having bullet proof coffee or coffee with cream, you are still technically in your fasted state.

A little oatmeal, some eggs with fruit, things like that will break the fast because the carbs with protein stimulate the release of insulin. I think I'm saying that right. (On DDs most people eat so few calories of things like that, that I assume that's why it still registers over the course of the day as "fasting")

Anyway, your body knows from the routine that more fuel is coming within the next 12 to 16 hours because your SIRT1 gene is activated. You've had a good night's sleep so the Leptin is flowing (leptin is apparently in charge of everything weight related and so much more). The hormone Leptin tells your brain that all is well and reminds it that 2 days ago you had plenty of nourishment and, according to schedule and routine, your body can expect plentiful nourishment today. No need to over-stress; No need to slow the metabolism and conserve. ( This reminds me of why Dr. J suggests at least 2 weeks worth of DD rotations is necessary to fully activate SIRT1)

In fact, that's when Leptin says "We're fine! We're great! We don't even need to hold on to every bit of this stored fat. We can let some of that go! And, we certainly have no need to store any more." The sirtuins shake hands with the Leptin and they agree.

OK, Jen! LOL! Wind me up and let me go! Your post was not long at all!:laugh: - Says the queen of verbosity. I'll stop now!

:goodpost: Well put (every word of it :D), Yam-Yam. All the points you made are consistent with what I've read and with my own experience of how my body and appetite seems to work. :shake:

I think that what we eat during our under 500 calorie fasts may be just as important as when we eat. I've read several posts in which people say they suffered, in terms of bad hunger, during their DD when they ate treats without much nutritional value during their preceding UD. I track and limit my protein on UDs (as well as limiting carbs), and if I don't eat lean protein for at least some of my DD calories, I end up breaking the fast at midnight because I'm too hungry to fall asleep or wake up hungry and can't fall back to sleep.

sunday 03-07-2013 07:51 PM

I worried about starvation mode when I began fasting as well. I will have to hunt for it, but somewhere amongst all of the many good links in the Benefits thread is a link with the science behind fasting and how we really don't hit starvation mode even going for a few days unless we are very lean with 10% body fat or less. We do not enter starvation mode until our fat reserves are completely exhausted and protein is the only fuel source left. This takes place faster in a leaner person since the fat reserves are depleted quicker. Generally, this should not even be a concern until you are at 5% body fat, for a man, or 10% body fat for a woman.

From Wikipedia
Quote:

Starvation mode is a state in which the body is responding to prolonged periods of low energy intake levels. During short periods of energy abstinence, the human body will burn primarily free fatty acids from body fat stores. After prolonged periods of starvation the body has depleted its body fat and begins to burn lean tissue and muscle as a fuel source.[2]

Ordinarily, the body responds to reduced energy intake by burning fat reserves first, and only consumes muscle and other tissues when those reserves are exhausted. Specifically, the body burns fat after first exhausting the contents of the digestive tract along with glycogen reserves stored in muscle and liver cells.[3] After prolonged periods of starvation, the body will utilize the proteins within muscle tissue as a fuel source. People who practice fasting on a regular basis, such as those adhering to energy restricted diets, can prime their bodies to abstain from food without burning lean tissue.[4] Resistance training (such as weight lifting) can also prevent the loss of muscle mass while a person is energy-restricted.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman, author of Fasting and Eating for Health says

Quote:

Contrary to what many people believe, fasting is not starvation. Starvation begins when abstinence is continued beyond the time when body's stored reserves are used up or dropped to a dangerously low level. During the fasting stage the body supports itself from stored reserves within it's tissues. The body will not starve or in general even be hungry while fasting because it is "eating". It is consuming the substances the individual consumed last week, last month, and last year that have been converted into body tissue. In fact, the symptoms of hunger generally disappear by the second day of a fast. This illustrates that the body has entered a fasting and lean tissue sparing metabolism. Of course, there is a limit to the body's reserves. When they have been used up, specific symptoms occur that indicate the fast should not be continued.

svenskamae 03-07-2013 08:22 PM

I have read that thryoid functioning can down-regulate in response to restricted calories, but it seems to be a temporary thing that stops when calories go back up, and would take longer than EOD to kick in. That was one reason why Dr. Phinney advised against not letting calories go too low in an interview with Jimmy Moore on "Ask the Lowcarb Experts," but he was thinking of eating the same low level of calories day after day after day, instead of cycling like JUDDD. So I wouldn't worry about it if one is doing JUDDD or other standard forms of IF.

Yennie 03-07-2013 08:23 PM

This is awesome - thank you! So then I wonder why we worry about "starvation mode" in fasting/low cal. Maybe its a misnomer to call it that then. Maybe a metabolic slow-down would be a better way to refer to it?
I can't spell today, BTW. Must be the sluggishness induced by my UD pizza feed as I do my part to rev my metabolism... ;)

Yam-Yam 03-08-2013 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svenskamae (Post 16302444)
:goodpost: Well put (every word of it :D), Yam-Yam. All the points you made are consistent with what I've read and with my own experience of how my body and appetite seems to work. :shake:

I think that what we eat during our under 500 calorie fasts may be just as important as when we eat. I've read several posts in which people say they suffered, in terms of bad hunger, during their DD when they ate treats without much nutritional value during their preceding UD. I track and limit my protein on UDs (as well as limiting carbs), and if I don't eat lean protein for at least some of my DD calories, I end up breaking the fast at midnight because I'm too hungry to fall asleep or wake up hungry and can't fall back to sleep.

I'm like you, Sven. I try to eat a lot of protein on UDs and as much as possible without going over 500 calories on DDs. If I only eat vegetables, fruits and whole grains but don't get enough protein, I can't make it through the DD and blow it every time.

Carly 03-08-2013 01:19 PM

I'm chiming in a little late and didn't read every post, but here is my take...

I don't actually consider 500 or under a fast, just me, fasting is nothing but water to me. But I usually end UD at about 9:30pm. On that next DD I usually eat under 200 calories usually in the form of a bedtime snack at 9pm. I often don't eat much of anything till UD dinner, but sometimes a yogurt around 1pm or 2pm. So, I go about 42-45 hours on under 500 calories and I have not gone into starvation mode. However, we are all so different. We are all different day to day since every now and then I wake up at 5:30am and I am starving by 7am, which is uncommon for me, but happens from time to time. I don't know if that answers the question, but it's my 2 cents.

jaymar 03-09-2013 05:08 AM

Thanks, Carly..I would like to ask you, if it's ok...did you still eat the same way that you do now, when you first started juddd?...or did you tweak things a little as you continued to lose?..I believe that my metabolism is so messed up that it may take a while for my body to really heal..I get into stalls, but I'm thinking that I should just keep waiting it out and finally the scale does move a little.

Carly 03-09-2013 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymar (Post 16305178)
Thanks, Carly..I would like to ask you, if it's ok...did you still eat the same way that you do now, when you first started juddd?...or did you tweak things a little as you continued to lose?..I believe that my metabolism is so messed up that it may take a while for my body to really heal..I get into stalls, but I'm thinking that I should just keep waiting it out and finally the scale does move a little.

When I first started I ate slightly higher DDs than I do now. What ever the calculator gave me for 20% at my ccurrent weight. My first DD # was 380. I ate grilled talapia and lettuce for dinner. When I ate the full 380 it didn't allow for the possibily that I may eat a yogurt or magic pops in my sleep so I started shaving 100 calories off DDs and tried to watch UDs just in case I ate a little something in my sleep, but we kept very little in the house so it couldn't do too much damage. I started very low DDs and felt for me it was a lot easier to NOT eat, than just eat a small amount. I wouldn't really be hungry till I started eating so if I had my bedtime snack it worked for me. My whole life I didn't really care to eat till later in the day or in the evening. I didn't really do any tweaks per se. I'm a straight forward juddd girl- no potato hack, no egg and meat fasts, just plain juddd. Strict UD/DD rotations during WLM. Now 3 fixed DDs in maintenance- still very low cal on those 3 DDs. I'm losing ever so slightly about 2 pounds in 5 weeks so eventually I may raise up the DDs or do 5:2, but right now I'm happy with my 3 DDs.

jaymar 03-09-2013 10:19 AM

Thanks, Carly..it helps...I tried to break stalls..and messed up a few times..I did pretty good as long as I would wait patiently for the scale to drop..sometimes it was over a week..but, so what..I'm doing regular rotations again..I grew up always having breakfast, but now on a dd I wait as long as I can then have protein, and it's been ok...it is helpful to know what you did..you found the best times for yourself and stuck to it..I'm very glad for your success..and for being so helpful to all of us ..you didn't achieve your goal and run off like you could have., and many others here have done the same too..that is wonderful for those of us who need the wisdom and experience.

Carly 03-09-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymar (Post 16305723)
Thanks, Carly..it helps...I tried to break stalls..and messed up a few times..I did pretty good as long as I would wait patiently for the scale to drop..sometimes it was over a week..but, so what..I'm doing regular rotations again..I grew up always having breakfast, but now on a dd I wait as long as I can then have protein, and it's been ok...it is helpful to know what you did..you found the best times for yourself and stuck to it..I'm very glad for your success..and for being so helpful to all of us ..you didn't achieve your goal and run off like you could have., and many others here have done the same too..that is wonderful for those of us who need the wisdom and experience.

Aw, thanks! I still feel like I get a lot of strength and enjoyment from coming here. I'm not planning on running off any time soon.

gotsomeold 03-10-2013 06:36 AM

About a year ago I noticed my weight loss had been stalled for three weeks. NBD, I thunk, my body is just going through a period of adjustment, maybe I need drop my DD/UD calories - wait awhile and see.

After about five weeks I started losing NSVs - arthritis returned, bright red cheeks and nose greeted me each morning - and my energy levels began dropping. WT* I wondered and began to worry. A few days later, on an UD, I realized I was carefully scraping most of the big meal I had prepared into the garbage. I had not eaten 1500 calories that UD...more like 800. I thought back over the past weeks and realized (a) I was only eating to hunger and with appetite suppression I did not have much of that, (b) I really should stop working on hobbies while I eat and pay attention to my food, and (c) I was a danged fool.

I started eating my UD calories again. At first I found I had to eat about 500 calories for UD lunch or I got in trouble again. After a few weeks whatever was healing finished and I was able to go back to eating like Carly - hwc in coffee is breakfast, bone broth plain or with veggies is lunch, most of my calories are eaten at dinner.

For me at least, starvation mode crept up gradually. Everyone is different, but I truly believe - here we go with the lists again - (a) one day cannot a metabolism slowdown make, and (b) once JUDDD Magic is established and the SIRTs are humming, most bodies will actually respond positively to an occasional break in the rotation.

Whew! Hope that helps.

Familyvet 03-10-2013 07:52 AM

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