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Old 03-29-2013, 07:19 AM   #1321
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Since I am a breakfast eater I still eat eggs and HWC for Breakfast then wait about 6 hours to start the cold boiled potatoes. This is working well for me but I have never eaten protein WITH the potatoes. The first few times I tried potatoes I was starving all day but that has gradually diminished and I am perfectly happy with a few potatoes on DD now. I have no health issues that I am aware of so have no insight on issues others may have. BUT I love potato DD's.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:27 AM   #1322
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I'm not sure but I think I know where to look--but off the top of my head I am wondering about gluconeogenesis--

I think probably we don't want anything blunting the BG surge. I know that Richard Nikoley added about an ounce of lean protein to his potato meals without negative effect. I really do think this is N=1. If you can get away with it and still lose fat, great, go for it. If you are stalling, eliminate the protein. For awhile I was trying japanese sweet potatoes (marvelous taste, incredibly satiating) but they stalled my fat loss, so saving them for maintenance.

Right now I am making a green smoothy for breakfast that contains all my Perfect Health Diet supps (kale, spinach, seaweed, collagen, 2 brazil nuts, Tbs chia seeds, tbs greens powder) and I swallow 6 liver pills with my drink. so--a wee bit fat, protein, carb. Rest of the day, taters. So far so good.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:48 AM   #1323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
I think probably we don't want anything blunting the BG surge.
I know I'm being stubborn about this, but I don't mean it in a belligerent or disrespectful way.

I've been thinking & thinking about it since last night and to me it doesn't seem logical that BG surges are why this works.

If the BG surges were imperative, it would be preferable to have a couple big potato meals per day; snacking on a small potato every couple hours wouldn't work.

Maybe the first few surges help regain insulin sensitivity, but after that, people seem to *stop* having the surges....but the hack doesn't stop working.

I suspect it all comes down to how much insulin you need.
That may vary slightly from person to person, but in a laws-of-physics way, it doesn't vary per XXXg of potatoes.
Like, you perform the same amount of work (joules) whether you carry
100lbs for 1 mile or 200lbs for 1/2 mile or 50lbs for 2 miles.

From otzi's first post about this on ***:
Quote:
Some suggested reasons this works so well:
- Food Reward/Satiety
- Calories Restriction
- Resistant Starch/Butyrate/Gut Flora Connection
- Insulin Sensitivity Regained
- Ketosis from calorie restriction/butyrate forming short chain fatty acids
Maybe some other theories have surfaced in the 1055 pages that thread has grown into...
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:00 PM   #1324
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I'm just happy it works! I'm not attached to any one theory--I can tell you that I feel like I am in ketosis when eating taters. I get that metallic taste in my mouth, my appetite goes away and I'm a bit headachy. Actually, if anything, potatoes seem to get me into ketosis better than fat does. About as well as low carb low fat does.

Really--something about the lack of fat seems the most important thing here. maybe protein is secondary--I can feel when my fat stores are being mobilized--i get a weird tingly feeling in my thighs of all places--i get that tang in my mouth--all that happens with the PH, but only if I keep fat low. Haven't experimented very much with protein.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:46 PM   #1325
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Ouiz, I happen to feel the same. Could it be that some of us do better with taters and some could do this very same fast with say all fat? Or all protein? Only reason I ask, is that I tried and tried to do the mac nut day and the egg day as a fast and by day 2, I wasn't having it. And my losses were not that great.

Now that you bring this up, I am very curious.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:57 PM   #1326
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I know I can do taters for 5 days, but if I were to try another fast such as protein or fat, I really don't know if I could sustain more than 2 days.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:58 PM   #1327
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What ever the mechanism, it seems there is an Insulin dump, can that really be healthy?
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:30 PM   #1328
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An insulin dump, in a normally metabolic individual should not be harmful.

FWIW, I am not, nor have I ever been, ketotic and I'm on day 6 of a PH. I"m testing blood and urine - why? Because I'm a gigantic nerd and I can.

Its possible, as stated above, the exact mechanism isn't known. I'm hoping to spend some quality time wiht my physiology books this weekend and see if I can piece together some new theories.

I also wondered about the role of gluconeogenesis but that happens at a cellular level, whereas the insulin dump & fat mobilization are necessary to move the glucose out of the blood and into the cells. HOWEVER, maybe there are 2 arms to this process since the Kreb's Cycle/TCA cycle/Gluconeogenesis requires fatty acids as substrate so... (Good Lord, that's a very painful mental reach back to BioChem!)

I'm gonna have to think on this some more...

The "protein hack" is very much like what Stillman's is...I'd been reading on those boards and I don't think I could do that either. Funny how this isn't bothering me much.

Have I mentioned lately that I LOVE this discussion!!!! Nerds unite!!!!!
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:55 PM   #1329
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I think the potato hack works for multiple reasons.

I think the fact that my fasting glucose has dropped into the 80s points to increased insulin sensitivity. This, to me, seems to be the big one.

Is it the fiber, the resistant starch, the amino acid profile, the water content, the insulin spike signaling satiety, the mono diet effect, the low food reward aspect...probably all and more.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:02 PM   #1330
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Originally Posted by Yennie View Post

FWIW, I am not, nor have I ever been, ketotic and I'm on day 6 of a PH. I"m testing blood and urine - why? Because I'm a gigantic nerd and I can.
Since, for some reason, it won't let me edit my post so I would like to amend that I mean I have not been ketotic in this particular potato hack of the last 6 days. I have, at times in my life, been ketotic. Just wanted to clarify.

Last edited by Yennie; 03-29-2013 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:32 PM   #1331
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Really--something about the lack of fat seems the most important thing here.
Definitely...absolutely...lack of fat is the key!!!
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:12 PM   #1332
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You guys make me laugh! I love seeing your discussions, I felt on *** I was leading all of the talk, so it's nice to see you guys coming up with the same questions/theories we all did on ***. This thread will be 5000 posts long, too, if you keep it up!

I didn't talk about it, but I did a potato week this past week (Mon-Fri). I was eating either 1/2 or 1 pound of plain baked potato for lunch, 2-3 pounds for dinner, and having one small snack of either almonds, a banana, and a couple chicken livers one night.

My weight loss was disappointing the first few days, it was like 174, 174, 173, 171, 170, 169 (morning weight). Overall very good--5 pounds in 5 days. I didn't cheat at all the last 2 days, but not sure if that was the cause of not dropping quicker or what. It's the first time I've done it with added foods.

Here's the interesting part: I was checking by FBG and postprandials through the week. My FBG is normally in the 100's-110's. I normally will spike to about 200 with a big potato for lunch. On Monday, my FBG was 110, I ate a big potato and tracked my blood glucose up to about 180 and back down to 85 over 3 hours. Tuesday, my FBG was 110, I ate a small potato for lunch and tracked my BG up to 145 and to 85 in a bit less than 3 hours. Wednesday, my FBG was 95 (a rarity) and 2 potatoes only caused a spike to 145 and back down to 85 in under 2 hours. Thursday and Friday by FBG was 85 and 87 -- I don't think I've ever seen it that low. The BG spikes after lunch were in the 140's and to 80's in 2 hours.

I keep my tester at work, so didn't test today, and also didn't check evening meals last week (you can only prick your finger so many times). Can't wait to check FBG next week after tomorrow's Eater Ham!

Ketosis - Mon, Tue, Wed, no sign of ketosis. Thursday I could feel it and noticed a slight change in urine, Ketostix showed 'small'. On Friday, I was in the 'moderate' to 'large' color range and could really feel it in my mouth and pee was very cloudy (which is normal for me in 'tater-ketosis'. I didn't check today, but the way I felt I was way in it.

So, today, I had a can of oysters at 1130, a piece of chicken, small serving of potatoes, 2 bananas, spoonful of almond butter, and 2 oz of 90% dark chocolate. I can tell I'm not in ketosis at this point.

Over on *** we dissected the heck out of this, in the end, everybody told me to just shut up about the science and focus on results. I think the insulin/BG issue comes into play somehow. It was funny that a small snack of nuts or bananas kept me out of ketosis. The last 2 days when I was in ketosis, I was probably only at 800 calories, first 3 days were probably 1000 cal.

I think the real magic is simply a big calorie deficit with no fat, extra foods are extra calories and take away from the satiety.

I think I may do it again next week as I'd like to get down to 165 for summer. If I do, I will probably go all-spuds and no snacks just to see the difference.

Sorry for the novel, it's just that I've done this quite a few times and I like to write it out for reference later. Hope this helps.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:21 PM   #1333
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I think I am just going to post on this thread from now on. But I am reading the "Potato Hacks on Paleo Blogs" thread as well. Is that OK?
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:30 PM   #1334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
I think the fact that my fasting glucose has dropped into the 80s points to increased insulin sensitivity. This, to me, seems to be the big one.
Prior to paleo, I was pre-diabetic with FBGs in the 120s. During my LC Primal Blueprint days, my FBG got into the 90's, but crept into the 100s and 110s. I started eating Perfect Health Diet style around XMas with approx 1 pound of potatoes/rice/plantains/sweet potatoes a day, and my FBG is still in the 100's after 3 months.

After 3 days of mainly potatoes, my FBG dropped to the 80's. I think that is so bizarre and counter-intuitive, but it must point to increased insulin sensitivity.

It makes me wonder if my body is trying to tell me something? Maybe I should double the starch and halve the fat in my normal eating--or maybe I should be eating lunches every day of only potato and a normal dinner.

It definitely has my wheels spinning. What do you think? I'm a 48 year old guy who lost almost 100pounds, at a healthy BMI, off all meds, but tend to gain very easily if I overeat for any length of time--even slightly. I would love to be able to maintain my weight for the rest of my life, and I'm pretty sure that insulin sensitivity plays a role in that desire.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:32 AM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otzi View Post
It definitely has my wheels spinning. What do you think? I'm a 48 year old guy who lost almost 100pounds, at a healthy BMI, off all meds, but tend to gain very easily if I overeat for any length of time--even slightly. I would love to be able to maintain my weight for the rest of my life, and I'm pretty sure that insulin sensitivity plays a role in that desire.
I am wondering this as well? Jaminet recommends no more than 600 cals daily in carbs and same with protein. I introduced taters in Jan as a daily habit when starting PHD. I did clean up my diet quite a bit, although, I was doing paleo prior to PHD. I switched my dairy to coconut milk and very limited cheese, no sour cream or yogurt. The one thing that I noticed is that my cravings have completely changed. I crave PHD type of foods now. I can be very happy with a tater covered in bone broth. Or believe it or not, fermented veggies! I also enjoy the daily fast.

Otzi, have you read Ray Cronise and his group's thoughts on the tater fast? Many of them have already reached goal in body weight, but felt that the tater fast did a metabolic reset of sorts. They noticed that their metabolism was working much better and felt this is a great tool for anyone whose trying to drop the last of their excess fat. One guy who was 100 lbs overweight lost .9 lbs per day just eating taters and continued until he had lost 80 lbs total.

From his blog...

Quote:
By day three your hunger should be completely under control. Continue to drink plenty of water (3-4 L) and then only eat when you’re hungry and don’t feel you have to finish.
This may sound crazy, but I literally steamed 5 lbs of potatoes and just got a few out here and there. Eat only until you aren’t hungry. I tried to not focus on the meal or food too much. More like I wanted to get it done and move on. More like using a public restroom – get it done and move on.
Remember, this is not a “way of life” just a two week experiment. Most will see a significant drop in blood pressure and blood sugar if they started high. Of anyone sees good control here where there was a problem, please post. You will also notice a huge satiation effect from these complex starches.
You’ll probably post some great weight loss numbers. You’ll once again be glycogen replete if you’ve been avoiding carbohydrate/starch/sugar. You’re basically flooding the body with glucose, while having just enough protein (yes, complete protein) to remain nitrogen positive.
This will be a place that you can always return to if progress stops. It’s a reset of sorts. I did it originally as a very simple experiment to prove to myself that I wasn’t completely nuts about the protein carb and fat – speak. It’s worked with every person that’s tried it.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:23 AM   #1336
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Great BG readings, Otzi!
Thanks for sharing all your details...I don't mind the novel at all.

I guess it's okay to not understand the science if one is healthy and only does the PH occasionally. But if one wants to tweak, or use aspects of it long-term (for weight maintenance, insulin sensitivity, or other health benefits), or has a condition like diabetes, understanding the science is important!

FWIW, food combining charts say
carbs + green veggies=OK
fat + green veggies=OK
protein (including fatty protein) + green veggies=OK

not OK:
fat + starches
protein + starches

PH falls in these guidelines perfectly.

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This thread will be 5000 posts long, too, if you keep it up!
NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
Maybe I should double the starch and halve the fat in my normal eating--or maybe I should be eating lunches every day of only potato and a normal dinner.
From what we do seem to understand of the science, potato lunches make more sense to me.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:52 AM   #1337
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I am in a phase of altering my PH for a while. I have been craving veggies like crazy so I am adding them in (without fat). Making a huge green veggie smoothie in the morning, potatoes + veggies for lunch, ditto for dinner. Sometimes just a big salad in the afternoon--so pretty much just veggies and potatoes. If I go out to dinner, I might have some meat or fish, but (so weird) I am kind of grossed out by protein since I have been eating taters, and I just seem to crave veggies and potatoes. When I do just potatoes, I seem to feel deprived after 3-4 days, but when I add in green veggies and a little fruit, not so much.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:43 PM   #1338
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Some self evident (you'd think) advice...

So....... the point of the hack is to eat the potatoes without fat. So the last 7 days have been essentially sans fat. Enter Easter Dinner...

Let's just say I wasn't sure if I was going to go back to hacking or start up JUDDD rotations. I get to put off that decision 1 more day since tomorrow would be a DD and I'm cooking a huge pot of rice right now for tomorrow.

I. AM. NOT. WELL!!!!

Moral of the story: When you practically eliminate fat from your diet for 7+ days, add it back slowly!

PS: Ouiz - Dottie just posted a recipe for potato spinach "meatballs" on the recipe sticky thread that look fantastic!
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:14 PM   #1339
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Quote:
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Prior to paleo, I was pre-diabetic with FBGs in the 120s. During my LC Primal Blueprint days, my FBG got into the 90's, but crept into the 100s and 110s. I started eating Perfect Health Diet style around XMas with approx 1 pound of potatoes/rice/plantains/sweet potatoes a day, and my FBG is still in the 100's after 3 months.

After 3 days of mainly potatoes, my FBG dropped to the 80's. I think that is so bizarre and counter-intuitive, but it must point to increased insulin sensitivity.

It makes me wonder if my body is trying to tell me something? Maybe I should double the starch and halve the fat in my normal eating--or maybe I should be eating lunches every day of only potato and a normal dinner.

It definitely has my wheels spinning. What do you think? I'm a 48 year old guy who lost almost 100pounds, at a healthy BMI, off all meds, but tend to gain very easily if I overeat for any length of time--even slightly. I would love to be able to maintain my weight for the rest of my life, and I'm pretty sure that insulin sensitivity plays a role in that desire.
Interesting. I have had a similar experience. My A1c was over 9 prior to low carb and dropped into the 7s then when I did Kwasniewski's Optimal Dietit dropped into the 5s but managed to gain weight on high fat low protein. Fasting glucose was never low. Always over 100 and often over120 and my A1c climbed back into the 6s.

I can't wait to see what my A1c is now.

I am also wondering if I need to make a permanent change in my diet. It seems like I should due my improved readings.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:46 PM   #1340
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I really feel this if this changes permanent for me. I have never felt so well doing low-carb. Potatoes and veggies have a whole new effect on me. Never going back to low-carb
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:28 PM   #1341
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One of my problems has been that even on a low-carb diet, something in my body (my liver, I suspect) cranks out glucose no matter what. When I sleep, my blood sugar goes up. If I fast, my blood sugar goes up. If I drink a ton of water, my blood sugar goes up.

I mean, I've figured out some tricks/schedules that lower my blood sugar for a few hours here & there, but a low carb diet + metformin only brought my A1c down from 6.8 to 6.4 or 6.2.

If doing potatoes improves insulin sensitivity, maybe I'll actually make some progress with this diabetes crap...that would be so cool!
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:17 AM   #1342
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Jen, I am so wishing this for you! I would love to see RS be the answer, but since we all have different internal mechanisms going on, it is not a clear cut method.

Ouiz, I feel the same. Never thought I would find veggies more satisfying than meat.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:58 AM   #1343
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I get that metallic taste in my mouth, my appetite goes away and I'm a bit headachy.
I second this as it's been very common for me.

caveats: it's not unusual for me to have an odd taste in my mouth since my last concussion as it seems to have completely messed up my palate (possibly one of the reasons that I tolerate the blandness of potato and rice quite well). I've never assessed myself for ketosis but would think it's attributable to low calories in my case as I typically find it difficult to eat more than 600kcals of potato or rice in a day without a determined effort.

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Old 04-01-2013, 11:02 AM   #1344
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OK, update. Last week (M-F) was predominately potatoes, FBG dropped from a normal 110 to 85 or so. On Saturday I ate normally and yesterday I ate a bit more than usual, but no sugar, oil, or flour--lots of ham, beans, potatoes, green bean casserole, and fruit.

This morning my FBG was 95. I am going to track my FBG thru this week and do another potato week next week. Then, I think I am going to start a JUDDD program for a few months (maybe all through summer) with 2 days of just potatoes, probably Wednesdays and Thursdays as that fits my schedule.

For anyone with FBG issues, I'd recommend trying a week of potatoes and checking BG throughout the day. It's very interesting indeed. My goal now is to find a way of eating that keeps my FBG at least in the 90's. Switching from LC paleo to Perfect Health Diet didn't do it--in fact my FBG stayed exactly the same when the only change was adding in a ton of potatoes. I had really thought it would drop. Maybe it primed me with insulin sensitivity, though.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:37 PM   #1345
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Dr Oz has on "resistant starches" today. The gastroenterologist is saying that including resistant starches in your diet can prevent cancer!!!! Wow!! Dr Oz said that this is very cutting edge studies. He also mentioned diabetes and blood sugar spikes. Talking about the temp of rice--could it make a difference? Wow!! Talk about dejavu LOL..Has anyone watched this today?

Dr Oz has 4 rules of carbs to prevent cancer. I will post after the commercial!!!
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:44 PM   #1346
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Dr Oz has on "resistant starches" today. The gastroenterologist is saying that including resistant starches in your diet can prevent cancer!!!! Wow!! Dr Oz said that this is very cutting edge studies. He also mentioned diabetes and blood sugar spikes. Talking about the temp of rice--could it make a difference? Wow!! Talk about dejavu LOL..Has anyone watched this today?

Dr Oz has 4 rules of carbs to prevent cancer. I will post after the commercial!!!
Thanks for letting me know! The great thing is, if you don't like potatoes, there are other forms of RS. I am so glad that I tried the tater hack and enjoy them almost daily. It is definitely a good for prevention of colon cancer.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:46 PM   #1347
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Here are those rules for the resistant carbs (pre-biotic) in your diet:

1. Eat your pasta undercooked. Cook 3-4 mins less than directions tell you to cook it for.
2. Cook, then cool technique. Hmmm......sounds familiar. Eating chilled makes it more resistant. Heat up, then cool down.
3. Buy the B's. beans, barley, bread.
4. Eat green bananas. The gastro they had on said use them as you would mashed potatoes. She loves salt and butter on them. You can have 2-3 servings a week.

I am a bit disappointed they didn't mention anything about potatoes. But maybe this will put it more out there. Now there will be no green bananas in the supermarket LOL.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:02 PM   #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
4. Eat green bananas. The gastro they had on said use them as you would mashed potatoes. She loves salt and butter on them. You can have 2-3 servings a week.
Hm, thanks for summarising this. Did the dietitian mention if she ate the 'mashed green banana' hot or cold, please?
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:05 PM   #1349
Way too much time on my hands!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
Hm, thanks for summarising this. Did the dietitian mention if she ate the 'mashed green banana' hot or cold, please?
She is a gastroenterologist (an M.D.). She ate them as you would mashed potatoes. So I am thinking hot. I don't recall though The show was today, so I am sure the video on his site should be up by no later than tomorrow.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:17 PM   #1350
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The green bananas would have to be eaten cold. Heating above 150 degrees or so completely destroys RS.

If you are serious about adding it to your diet, there are 2 ways I know of to get large amounts easily. The easiest is to buy some unmodified potato starch, such as Bob's Redmill Potato Starch. It has to be unmodified! To use it, add 2-3 TBS to a cold drink like a smoothie or mix with milk or whatever. It contains about 8g RS per tablespoon.

A more pleasant, in my opinion, but more troublesome method is to buy green plantains, slice thin, and dry them. Sprinkle with salt, cinnamon or pepper while still wet. they taste just like saltine or graham crackers when completely dry. To dry them, put on a very lightly oiled cookie sheet, put in oven heated to around 120 degrees (not too hot!) or just air dry for a couple days--or a dehydrator--they are done when they break easily.

The dried plantains are almost pure RS by weight. 1 plantain produces about 100g worth of RS chips. Recommended intake is 20-30g/day. Most Americans get 3-5g/day.

Potatoes are a poor source unless eaten raw. raw, they are as high in RS as a green plantain, but nobody can eat raw potatoes in any quantity. Cooked, a potato contains about 2g RS, cooked and cooled potatoes contain 3-8g RS.

Green bananas by comparison contain about 15g RS per small banana--and green bananas are not very tasty. The better they taste, the less RS. A fully ripe banana has 0 RS.

Hope this helps!
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