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Old 03-27-2013, 06:31 PM   #1321
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I can eat higher calories on DD when I do just cold boiled potatoes so I am not hungry and I still maintain and in fact have lost 3 pounds this month doing the potato DD's. I inched my DD potato calories up to 1000 and I did not gain. I try to do between 600-800 on normal potato DD's. I love the potato miracle.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:19 AM   #1322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
In order for your body to produce and utilize insulin, you need fat. Normally, when you load your potato with butter and sour cream, you provide the necessary fat for insulin utilization from the dietary source. However, if you don't have any fat (or negligible fat) from a dietary source, your body is forced to mobilize peripheral fat for insulin utilization.
This is the best explanation I have read so far, I almost get it!
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:29 AM   #1323
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Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
Since I don't have any desire to do more than one day at a time of potatoes, I don't see how it could work any better...than nothing at all...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post

In order for your body to produce and utilize insulin, you need fat... However, if you don't have any fat (or negligible fat) from a dietary source, your body is forced to mobilize peripheral fat for insulin utilization.

Excellent explanation!

I think of the potato hack as being sort of like one of those mythical "negative calorie foods". But in this case, you need extra fat to digest the potatoes, so it's "stolen" from the fat already on your body.
(Just a simplified explanation/visualization I made up. )

Quote:
The protein will slow the absorption of the carbs, which negates the big glycemic load.
You know, I wonder about this...I think some people are having small amounts of lean protein with the potatoes and doing okay. It might change the satiety factor, but if I eat 100g of carb, wouldn't I need the same amount of insulin regardless of whether it takes me 1 hour or 3 hours to digest it? IDK, and I'm not going to mess with protein at this point, but I'm just curious.
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:11 PM   #1324
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You know, I wonder about this...I think some people are having small amounts of lean protein with the potatoes and doing okay. It might change the satiety factor, but if I eat 100g of carb, wouldn't I need the same amount of insulin regardless of whether it takes me 1 hour or 3 hours to digest it? IDK, and I'm not going to mess with protein at this point, but I'm just curious.
I'm not 100% sure since all my research was done in T1D so the dietary issues are a little different than for T2D which, I think, is where you'd find the real answer to this question. However, lets posit:
(I recently read the word "posit" in a book and decided I wanted to try to work it into a conversation at some point...yay for me! Good lord I'm a nerd!)

First, not all carbs are created equal. 100g of a monosaccharide will hit the blood stream faster than 100g of a di- or polysaccharide because the bonds between the carbon rings will need to be broken down into monosaccharides before absorption.

In individuals with NORMAL glucose/insulin responses, the insulin response to a glucose load should be fairly predictable. This predictability is the theory behind oral glucose tolerance tests. Drink 50-100g of straight glucose (not sugar, as that is a disaccharide, but actual glucose) and within a certain time frame, blood glucose levels should return to an acceptable level. Failure to do so indicates abnormalities in the glucose/insulin system a la Diabetes. For longer, more complex tests, a glucose curve can track the swings and the insulin spikes.

I think the key to the potato (or rice) hack working is the high glycemic load of the food, which sends the blood glucose skyrocketing (if you'll forgive the unscientific term). Since we know how much the body wants equilibrium, the spike of BG results in a massive insulin dump (why some people end up wiht rebound hypoglycemia - they dump too much insulin). In a panic, the beta cells of the pancreas just start grabbing whatever resources they have to produce that massive insulin spike.

We know from other research that consuming protein with carbs will slow carbohydrate digestion/absorption. Its been recommended to eat protein along with carbs to PREVENT the blood glucose spike followed by the insulin spike. BUT - in this case - that is the exact reaction we want!

Having said all that (some of it is kinda me thinking out load) - we had our grams of fat/grams of potato discussion the other day. I think this is going to end up being a bit like that...where it will vary based on the individual AND there may be some trade off - add protein and you may only lose 0.9# instead of 1# but you're happier emotionally.

(Jen, I know you know the glucose physiology, mostly that was me thinking out loud...)
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:57 PM   #1325
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Thanks for that detailed explanation, but *I* posit (lol, I love that word) the theory
that the BG "spike" isn't necessarily what causes the potato hack magic...
it's just the need for insulin in the absence of dietary fat.

So, as I said before, if you eat xxx amount of potatoes, you're going to need xxx amount of insulin to metabolize it; if you don't eat any fat with it (or for a few hours afterwards), you're going to use the same amount of body fat to produce that insulin...regardless of whether it spikes your blood sugar or digests more slowly.

I don't inject insulin...someone who does might be able to clear up that mystery.
Or I'll check my Dr Bernstein sometime tomorrow.

IIRC, some people don't even get a BG spike after a few days on the hack.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:01 PM   #1326
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We need Ouiz to chime in here and tell us why adding protein is bad. I know I've read that in multiple places. Maybe Otzi knows...
I don't think I'll have time at work tomorrow but I do have some of my physiology books at home - I may see if I can read more into carbohydrate metabolism and see if we can figure this out. I'm loving the results, I would love to know WHY!!!
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:31 PM   #1327
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One main reason seems to be that if you add different foods, you don't get the satiety (that some people get from eating only potatoes), and then you eat too many calories for the potato hack to work.

I haven't been adding protein but the purpose of the cornstarch is to make the blood glucose peak/nadir less pronounced. So I'm hoping my theory isn't wrong.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:33 PM   #1328
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Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
One main reason seems to be that if you add different foods, you don't get the satiety (that some people get from eating only potatoes), and then you eat too many calories for the potato hack to work.

I haven't been adding protein but the purpose of the cornstarch is to make the blood glucose peak/nadir less pronounced. So I'm hoping my theory isn't wrong.
Makes sense...the satiety portion. And I've been following your corn starch discussion. Hopefully you're right too so it can work for you.

The theory is really awesome to try to hash out but can't argue with the results.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:13 AM   #1329
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Yennie and Jenny~ Fascinating discussion!!
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:19 AM   #1330
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Since I am a breakfast eater I still eat eggs and HWC for Breakfast then wait about 6 hours to start the cold boiled potatoes. This is working well for me but I have never eaten protein WITH the potatoes. The first few times I tried potatoes I was starving all day but that has gradually diminished and I am perfectly happy with a few potatoes on DD now. I have no health issues that I am aware of so have no insight on issues others may have. BUT I love potato DD's.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:27 AM   #1331
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I'm not sure but I think I know where to look--but off the top of my head I am wondering about gluconeogenesis--

I think probably we don't want anything blunting the BG surge. I know that Richard Nikoley added about an ounce of lean protein to his potato meals without negative effect. I really do think this is N=1. If you can get away with it and still lose fat, great, go for it. If you are stalling, eliminate the protein. For awhile I was trying japanese sweet potatoes (marvelous taste, incredibly satiating) but they stalled my fat loss, so saving them for maintenance.

Right now I am making a green smoothy for breakfast that contains all my Perfect Health Diet supps (kale, spinach, seaweed, collagen, 2 brazil nuts, Tbs chia seeds, tbs greens powder) and I swallow 6 liver pills with my drink. so--a wee bit fat, protein, carb. Rest of the day, taters. So far so good.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:48 AM   #1332
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I think probably we don't want anything blunting the BG surge.
I know I'm being stubborn about this, but I don't mean it in a belligerent or disrespectful way.

I've been thinking & thinking about it since last night and to me it doesn't seem logical that BG surges are why this works.

If the BG surges were imperative, it would be preferable to have a couple big potato meals per day; snacking on a small potato every couple hours wouldn't work.

Maybe the first few surges help regain insulin sensitivity, but after that, people seem to *stop* having the surges....but the hack doesn't stop working.

I suspect it all comes down to how much insulin you need.
That may vary slightly from person to person, but in a laws-of-physics way, it doesn't vary per XXXg of potatoes.
Like, you perform the same amount of work (joules) whether you carry
100lbs for 1 mile or 200lbs for 1/2 mile or 50lbs for 2 miles.

From otzi's first post about this on MDA:
Quote:
Some suggested reasons this works so well:
- Food Reward/Satiety
- Calories Restriction
- Resistant Starch/Butyrate/Gut Flora Connection
- Insulin Sensitivity Regained
- Ketosis from calorie restriction/butyrate forming short chain fatty acids
Maybe some other theories have surfaced in the 1055 pages that thread has grown into...
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:00 AM   #1333
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I'm just happy it works! I'm not attached to any one theory--I can tell you that I feel like I am in ketosis when eating taters. I get that metallic taste in my mouth, my appetite goes away and I'm a bit headachy. Actually, if anything, potatoes seem to get me into ketosis better than fat does. About as well as low carb low fat does.

Really--something about the lack of fat seems the most important thing here. maybe protein is secondary--I can feel when my fat stores are being mobilized--i get a weird tingly feeling in my thighs of all places--i get that tang in my mouth--all that happens with the PH, but only if I keep fat low. Haven't experimented very much with protein.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:46 AM   #1334
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Ouiz, I happen to feel the same. Could it be that some of us do better with taters and some could do this very same fast with say all fat? Or all protein? Only reason I ask, is that I tried and tried to do the mac nut day and the egg day as a fast and by day 2, I wasn't having it. And my losses were not that great.

Now that you bring this up, I am very curious.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:57 AM   #1335
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I know I can do taters for 5 days, but if I were to try another fast such as protein or fat, I really don't know if I could sustain more than 2 days.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:58 PM   #1336
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What ever the mechanism, it seems there is an Insulin dump, can that really be healthy?
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:30 PM   #1337
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An insulin dump, in a normally metabolic individual should not be harmful.

FWIW, I am not, nor have I ever been, ketotic and I'm on day 6 of a PH. I"m testing blood and urine - why? Because I'm a gigantic nerd and I can.

Its possible, as stated above, the exact mechanism isn't known. I'm hoping to spend some quality time wiht my physiology books this weekend and see if I can piece together some new theories.

I also wondered about the role of gluconeogenesis but that happens at a cellular level, whereas the insulin dump & fat mobilization are necessary to move the glucose out of the blood and into the cells. HOWEVER, maybe there are 2 arms to this process since the Kreb's Cycle/TCA cycle/Gluconeogenesis requires fatty acids as substrate so... (Good Lord, that's a very painful mental reach back to BioChem!)

I'm gonna have to think on this some more...

The "protein hack" is very much like what Stillman's is...I'd been reading on those boards and I don't think I could do that either. Funny how this isn't bothering me much.

Have I mentioned lately that I LOVE this discussion!!!! Nerds unite!!!!!
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:55 PM   #1338
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I think the potato hack works for multiple reasons.

I think the fact that my fasting glucose has dropped into the 80s points to increased insulin sensitivity. This, to me, seems to be the big one.

Is it the fiber, the resistant starch, the amino acid profile, the water content, the insulin spike signaling satiety, the mono diet effect, the low food reward aspect...probably all and more.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:02 PM   #1339
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FWIW, I am not, nor have I ever been, ketotic and I'm on day 6 of a PH. I"m testing blood and urine - why? Because I'm a gigantic nerd and I can.
Since, for some reason, it won't let me edit my post so I would like to amend that I mean I have not been ketotic in this particular potato hack of the last 6 days. I have, at times in my life, been ketotic. Just wanted to clarify.

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Old 03-29-2013, 08:32 PM   #1340
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Really--something about the lack of fat seems the most important thing here.
Definitely...absolutely...lack of fat is the key!!!
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:12 PM   #1341
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You guys make me laugh! I love seeing your discussions, I felt on MDA I was leading all of the talk, so it's nice to see you guys coming up with the same questions/theories we all did on MDA. This thread will be 5000 posts long, too, if you keep it up!

I didn't talk about it, but I did a potato week this past week (Mon-Fri). I was eating either 1/2 or 1 pound of plain baked potato for lunch, 2-3 pounds for dinner, and having one small snack of either almonds, a banana, and a couple chicken livers one night.

My weight loss was disappointing the first few days, it was like 174, 174, 173, 171, 170, 169 (morning weight). Overall very good--5 pounds in 5 days. I didn't cheat at all the last 2 days, but not sure if that was the cause of not dropping quicker or what. It's the first time I've done it with added foods.

Here's the interesting part: I was checking by FBG and postprandials through the week. My FBG is normally in the 100's-110's. I normally will spike to about 200 with a big potato for lunch. On Monday, my FBG was 110, I ate a big potato and tracked my blood glucose up to about 180 and back down to 85 over 3 hours. Tuesday, my FBG was 110, I ate a small potato for lunch and tracked my BG up to 145 and to 85 in a bit less than 3 hours. Wednesday, my FBG was 95 (a rarity) and 2 potatoes only caused a spike to 145 and back down to 85 in under 2 hours. Thursday and Friday by FBG was 85 and 87 -- I don't think I've ever seen it that low. The BG spikes after lunch were in the 140's and to 80's in 2 hours.

I keep my tester at work, so didn't test today, and also didn't check evening meals last week (you can only prick your finger so many times). Can't wait to check FBG next week after tomorrow's Eater Ham!

Ketosis - Mon, Tue, Wed, no sign of ketosis. Thursday I could feel it and noticed a slight change in urine, Ketostix showed 'small'. On Friday, I was in the 'moderate' to 'large' color range and could really feel it in my mouth and pee was very cloudy (which is normal for me in 'tater-ketosis'. I didn't check today, but the way I felt I was way in it.

So, today, I had a can of oysters at 1130, a piece of chicken, small serving of potatoes, 2 bananas, spoonful of almond butter, and 2 oz of 90% dark chocolate. I can tell I'm not in ketosis at this point.

Over on MDA we dissected the heck out of this, in the end, everybody told me to just shut up about the science and focus on results. I think the insulin/BG issue comes into play somehow. It was funny that a small snack of nuts or bananas kept me out of ketosis. The last 2 days when I was in ketosis, I was probably only at 800 calories, first 3 days were probably 1000 cal.

I think the real magic is simply a big calorie deficit with no fat, extra foods are extra calories and take away from the satiety.

I think I may do it again next week as I'd like to get down to 165 for summer. If I do, I will probably go all-spuds and no snacks just to see the difference.

Sorry for the novel, it's just that I've done this quite a few times and I like to write it out for reference later. Hope this helps.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:21 PM   #1342
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I think I am just going to post on this thread from now on. But I am reading the "Potato Hacks on Paleo Blogs" thread as well. Is that OK?
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:30 PM   #1343
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I think the fact that my fasting glucose has dropped into the 80s points to increased insulin sensitivity. This, to me, seems to be the big one.
Prior to paleo, I was pre-diabetic with FBGs in the 120s. During my LC Primal Blueprint days, my FBG got into the 90's, but crept into the 100s and 110s. I started eating Perfect Health Diet style around XMas with approx 1 pound of potatoes/rice/plantains/sweet potatoes a day, and my FBG is still in the 100's after 3 months.

After 3 days of mainly potatoes, my FBG dropped to the 80's. I think that is so bizarre and counter-intuitive, but it must point to increased insulin sensitivity.

It makes me wonder if my body is trying to tell me something? Maybe I should double the starch and halve the fat in my normal eating--or maybe I should be eating lunches every day of only potato and a normal dinner.

It definitely has my wheels spinning. What do you think? I'm a 48 year old guy who lost almost 100pounds, at a healthy BMI, off all meds, but tend to gain very easily if I overeat for any length of time--even slightly. I would love to be able to maintain my weight for the rest of my life, and I'm pretty sure that insulin sensitivity plays a role in that desire.
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:32 AM   #1344
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It definitely has my wheels spinning. What do you think? I'm a 48 year old guy who lost almost 100pounds, at a healthy BMI, off all meds, but tend to gain very easily if I overeat for any length of time--even slightly. I would love to be able to maintain my weight for the rest of my life, and I'm pretty sure that insulin sensitivity plays a role in that desire.
I am wondering this as well? Jaminet recommends no more than 600 cals daily in carbs and same with protein. I introduced taters in Jan as a daily habit when starting PHD. I did clean up my diet quite a bit, although, I was doing paleo prior to PHD. I switched my dairy to coconut milk and very limited cheese, no sour cream or yogurt. The one thing that I noticed is that my cravings have completely changed. I crave PHD type of foods now. I can be very happy with a tater covered in bone broth. Or believe it or not, fermented veggies! I also enjoy the daily fast.

Otzi, have you read Ray Cronise and his group's thoughts on the tater fast? Many of them have already reached goal in body weight, but felt that the tater fast did a metabolic reset of sorts. They noticed that their metabolism was working much better and felt this is a great tool for anyone whose trying to drop the last of their excess fat. One guy who was 100 lbs overweight lost .9 lbs per day just eating taters and continued until he had lost 80 lbs total.

From his blog...

Quote:
By day three your hunger should be completely under control. Continue to drink plenty of water (3-4 L) and then only eat when you’re hungry and don’t feel you have to finish.
This may sound crazy, but I literally steamed 5 lbs of potatoes and just got a few out here and there. Eat only until you aren’t hungry. I tried to not focus on the meal or food too much. More like I wanted to get it done and move on. More like using a public restroom – get it done and move on.
Remember, this is not a “way of life” just a two week experiment. Most will see a significant drop in blood pressure and blood sugar if they started high. Of anyone sees good control here where there was a problem, please post. You will also notice a huge satiation effect from these complex starches.
You’ll probably post some great weight loss numbers. You’ll once again be glycogen replete if you’ve been avoiding carbohydrate/starch/sugar. You’re basically flooding the body with glucose, while having just enough protein (yes, complete protein) to remain nitrogen positive.
This will be a place that you can always return to if progress stops. It’s a reset of sorts. I did it originally as a very simple experiment to prove to myself that I wasn’t completely nuts about the protein carb and fat – speak. It’s worked with every person that’s tried it.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:23 AM   #1345
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Great BG readings, Otzi!
Thanks for sharing all your details...I don't mind the novel at all.

I guess it's okay to not understand the science if one is healthy and only does the PH occasionally. But if one wants to tweak, or use aspects of it long-term (for weight maintenance, insulin sensitivity, or other health benefits), or has a condition like diabetes, understanding the science is important!

FWIW, food combining charts say
carbs + green veggies=OK
fat + green veggies=OK
protein (including fatty protein) + green veggies=OK

not OK:
fat + starches
protein + starches

PH falls in these guidelines perfectly.

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This thread will be 5000 posts long, too, if you keep it up!
NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
Maybe I should double the starch and halve the fat in my normal eating--or maybe I should be eating lunches every day of only potato and a normal dinner.
From what we do seem to understand of the science, potato lunches make more sense to me.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:52 AM   #1346
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I am in a phase of altering my PH for a while. I have been craving veggies like crazy so I am adding them in (without fat). Making a huge green veggie smoothie in the morning, potatoes + veggies for lunch, ditto for dinner. Sometimes just a big salad in the afternoon--so pretty much just veggies and potatoes. If I go out to dinner, I might have some meat or fish, but (so weird) I am kind of grossed out by protein since I have been eating taters, and I just seem to crave veggies and potatoes. When I do just potatoes, I seem to feel deprived after 3-4 days, but when I add in green veggies and a little fruit, not so much.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:43 PM   #1347
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Some self evident (you'd think) advice...

So....... the point of the hack is to eat the potatoes without fat. So the last 7 days have been essentially sans fat. Enter Easter Dinner...

Let's just say I wasn't sure if I was going to go back to hacking or start up JUDDD rotations. I get to put off that decision 1 more day since tomorrow would be a DD and I'm cooking a huge pot of rice right now for tomorrow.

I. AM. NOT. WELL!!!!

Moral of the story: When you practically eliminate fat from your diet for 7+ days, add it back slowly!

PS: Ouiz - Dottie just posted a recipe for potato spinach "meatballs" on the recipe sticky thread that look fantastic!
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:14 PM   #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otzi View Post
Prior to paleo, I was pre-diabetic with FBGs in the 120s. During my LC Primal Blueprint days, my FBG got into the 90's, but crept into the 100s and 110s. I started eating Perfect Health Diet style around XMas with approx 1 pound of potatoes/rice/plantains/sweet potatoes a day, and my FBG is still in the 100's after 3 months.

After 3 days of mainly potatoes, my FBG dropped to the 80's. I think that is so bizarre and counter-intuitive, but it must point to increased insulin sensitivity.

It makes me wonder if my body is trying to tell me something? Maybe I should double the starch and halve the fat in my normal eating--or maybe I should be eating lunches every day of only potato and a normal dinner.

It definitely has my wheels spinning. What do you think? I'm a 48 year old guy who lost almost 100pounds, at a healthy BMI, off all meds, but tend to gain very easily if I overeat for any length of time--even slightly. I would love to be able to maintain my weight for the rest of my life, and I'm pretty sure that insulin sensitivity plays a role in that desire.
Interesting. I have had a similar experience. My A1c was over 9 prior to low carb and dropped into the 7s then when I did Kwasniewski's Optimal Dietit dropped into the 5s but managed to gain weight on high fat low protein. Fasting glucose was never low. Always over 100 and often over120 and my A1c climbed back into the 6s.

I can't wait to see what my A1c is now.

I am also wondering if I need to make a permanent change in my diet. It seems like I should due my improved readings.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:46 PM   #1349
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I really feel this if this changes permanent for me. I have never felt so well doing low-carb. Potatoes and veggies have a whole new effect on me. Never going back to low-carb
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:28 PM   #1350
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One of my problems has been that even on a low-carb diet, something in my body (my liver, I suspect) cranks out glucose no matter what. When I sleep, my blood sugar goes up. If I fast, my blood sugar goes up. If I drink a ton of water, my blood sugar goes up.

I mean, I've figured out some tricks/schedules that lower my blood sugar for a few hours here & there, but a low carb diet + metformin only brought my A1c down from 6.8 to 6.4 or 6.2.

If doing potatoes improves insulin sensitivity, maybe I'll actually make some progress with this diabetes crap...that would be so cool!
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