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Old 11-13-2012, 01:01 PM   #1
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low carb and ?

I have been doing fairly low carb (25g) while figuring out how to get back to JUDDD. Feel good though experiencing some of the usual initial side effects. I haven't done really low carb successfully for weight loss since the first time, maybe 40 years ago. This is more of a cleansing measure to get the wheat/dairy out and get rid of my crazy appetite and get the body to burn fat for fuel so I can JUDDD. It is working well as a maintenance tool.

A couple of things that I wonder about:

1) wine. My favorite is pretty dry and registers 0-1 carb. Will this trip me up with regards to weight loss if my other carbs are coming from vegetables only? I really love my evening glass of wine and find it very relaxing but could set it aside if it was a problem.

2) I like the science of the 80/15/5 F/P/C rational but find it nearly impossible to get the fat in without overdoing the P/C when using whole foods. The idea of glombing down a bunch of cream cheese or similar manufactured food doesn't make sense to me so I am wondering how one achieves these proportions.

3) I thought I would try the leptin reset of 50+g protein first thing in the morning to help with sleep and low and behold I am actually sleeping longer . However, this represents the lions share of protein (and calories on a DD) so not quite finishing the days the way I would like.

It has occurred to me that this may be diet schizophrenia (Sp) and maybe I can't do all these things. There is so much science out there. How does one choose? But maybe someone out there has already figured some of it out.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:21 PM   #2
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Wine is not a carb but is processed by the body as if it is around 9g carbs a glass.

I would not touch it, have a vodka instead
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:35 PM   #3
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Hey Pink Princess: Why Vodka? and, how about Tequila?

Does the body process Vodka as if it has less carbs?

I was going to buy some Tequila tomorrow because a friend is retiring and we are going to celebrate. I thought I could make some Skinny Margaritas with the sugar free mix for tomorrow evening. That's why I ask about it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
I have been doing fairly low carb (25g) while figuring out how to get back to JUDDD. Feel good though experiencing some of the usual initial side effects. I haven't done really low carb successfully for weight loss since the first time, maybe 40 years ago. This is more of a cleansing measure to get the wheat/dairy out and get rid of my crazy appetite and get the body to burn fat for fuel so I can JUDDD. It is working well as a maintenance tool.

A couple of things that I wonder about:

1) wine. My favorite is pretty dry and registers 0-1 carb. Will this trip me up with regards to weight loss if my other carbs are coming from vegetables only? I really love my evening glass of wine and find it very relaxing but could set it aside if it was a problem.

2) I like the science of the 80/15/5 F/P/C rational but find it nearly impossible to get the fat in without overdoing the P/C when using whole foods. The idea of glombing down a bunch of cream cheese or similar manufactured food doesn't make sense to me so I am wondering how one achieves these proportions.

3) I thought I would try the leptin reset of 50+g protein first thing in the morning to help with sleep and low and behold I am actually sleeping longer . However, this represents the lions share of protein (and calories on a DD) so not quite finishing the days the way I would like.

It has occurred to me that this may be diet schizophrenia (Sp) and maybe I can't do all these things. There is so much science out there. How does one choose? But maybe someone out there has already figured some of it out.
Cici: I have read from some people that a glass of wine in the evening does not slow down their loss. It did not slow down my losses when I was doing everything else right (like not going on 6 weeks of vacation and overeating almost every day! LOL)

Sometimes if one glass led to 2 or 3 it would definitely slow me down and I would totally abstain for a week or so.

As to Leptin reset, I think it's a matter of trial and error.

For me, I tried the 30-50 grams of protein in the morning but it just made me hungry and I wanted to eat all day.

I've experimented enough now to know that, especially on DDs, it's better for me to have coffee and lots of water throughout the morning and not eat breakfast.

You just have to find out what works for you.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yam-Yam View Post
Hey Pink Princess: Why Vodka? and, how about Tequila?

Does the body process Vodka as if it has less carbs?

I was going to buy some Tequila tomorrow because a friend is retiring and we are going to celebrate. I thought I could make some Skinny Margaritas with the sugar free mix for tomorrow evening. That's why I ask about it.
Tequila is low carb as well
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:34 PM   #6
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Tis the season and all that. I used to enjoy a bourbon but thought that wine was healthier.

Most diets say no alcohol during induction phase, whatever the rules, but I am way past the point of extreme anything any more. LOL.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
Tis the season and all that. I used to enjoy a bourbon but thought that wine was healthier.

Most diets say no alcohol during induction phase, whatever the rules, but I am way past the point of extreme anything any more. LOL.
I'm soooooo with you on that! For the first time ever I am really, truly enjoying a weight loss program. I'm never, ever giving up JUDD! I should be the poster child for living life, enjoying everything to the max and then easily returning to the plan. Over and over and over again.

On top of that, this wonderful family of support here on this forum is truly the "icing on the cake" in every way. IYKWIM?
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
I have been doing fairly low carb (25g) while figuring out how to get back to JUDDD. Feel good though experiencing some of the usual initial side effects. I haven't done really low carb successfully for weight loss since the first time, maybe 40 years ago. This is more of a cleansing measure to get the wheat/dairy out and get rid of my crazy appetite and get the body to burn fat for fuel so I can JUDDD. It is working well as a maintenance tool.

A couple of things that I wonder about:

1) wine. My favorite is pretty dry and registers 0-1 carb. Will this trip me up with regards to weight loss if my other carbs are coming from vegetables only? I really love my evening glass of wine and find it very relaxing but could set it aside if it was a problem.

2) I like the science of the 80/15/5 F/P/C rational but find it nearly impossible to get the fat in without overdoing the P/C when using whole foods. The idea of glombing down a bunch of cream cheese or similar manufactured food doesn't make sense to me so I am wondering how one achieves these proportions.

3) I thought I would try the leptin reset of 50+g protein first thing in the morning to help with sleep and low and behold I am actually sleeping longer . However, this represents the lions share of protein (and calories on a DD) so not quite finishing the days the way I would like.

It has occurred to me that this may be diet schizophrenia (Sp) and maybe I can't do all these things. There is so much science out there. How does one choose? But maybe someone out there has already figured some of it out.
You spelled Schizophrenia correctly, but perhaps it is "diet Multiple Personality Disorder" Unfortunately I'm of no help since I don't drink or follow LC much these days. I think you got some good suggestions already and I'm sure more will come. for now from me.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:18 PM   #9
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I have a drink almost daily.

My daughter, who is in her fourth week of JUDDD, is quite social and includes drinking in her cals both DD and UD.
She does not drink daily but goes out w friends a couple times weekly.
Her clothes are getting quite loose.

She eats LC w some occasional gluten free items (celiac) but does not get caught up in all the latest LC crazes/science...just sticks w the basics.

Don't forget that JUDDD should relieve us of obsessing.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:49 PM   #10
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Don't forget that JUDDD should relieve us of obsessing.
Having somewhat failed my first JUDDD launch, I am still obsessed, plotting and planning, calculating and recalculating. I have backed up and will begin JUDDDing again without so much abandon once I am recovered from the dive off the deep end. I think it will be soon, but just want to be fat adapted before fasting and it seems that means lower carb. I am playing with different macro levels and seeing how long I can go without eating but am not having anything close to a DD yet. I am happy to say that I have not gained anything since making the switch so maintenance is working well for me.

Regardless of my progress, however, I fully intend to enjoy the holidays with wheat being my only total avoidance because it totally sends me into a spiral down the drain.

Oh, and the wine, it stays.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:52 PM   #11
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I'm soooooo with you on that! For the first time ever I am really, truly enjoying a weight loss program. I'm never, ever giving up JUDD! I should be the poster child for living life, enjoying everything to the max and then easily returning to the plan. Over and over and over again.

On top of that, this wonderful family of support here on this forum is truly the "icing on the cake" in every way. IYKWIM?
Yes, Yes, and Yes. Someday I will say this too.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:56 PM   #12
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You spelled Schizophrenia correctly, but perhaps it is "diet Multiple Personality Disorder" Unfortunately I'm of no help since I don't drink or follow LC much these days. I think you got some good suggestions already and I'm sure more will come. for now from me.
Thank you, Carly. Hugs appreciated. I hope my medical referrence didn't offend anyone. I never know what is correct any more but certainly do have a hard time choosing one plan over another.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:02 PM   #13
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Thank you, Carly. Hugs appreciated. I hope my medical referrence didn't offend anyone. I never know what is correct any more but certainly do have a hard time choosing one plan over another.
I'm just joking around- as a therapist I couldn't pass it up
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:35 PM   #14
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Cici, I feel as though we're doing similar experiments.
JUDDD, so far, has not changed my addictive relationship with carbs much. It may, yet. I remain hopeful.
I also like the LCHF research (Phinney and Volek) and am fascinated by Tim Noakes' change of tune on carbs and sport. I ran two marathons and got fatter and unhealthier during the training for each. It was the simple carb thing.

Anyway, I'm currently doing higher fat (mascarpone alone has almost solved the problem of raising the percentage. Holy god, how did i reach the age of fifty without tasting that????? BP coffee is another great contributor) but lower protein. UDs are just to contentment and DDs are counted. As soon as I feel "fat adapted", I'll ratchet back my UDs according to my recommended numbers.
I know this sounds crazy to many juddders, but living with constant cravings and deteriorating skin and hair quality was a bigger drag for me.
I am convinced that I'll find a middle ground in here somewhere, and be wearing smallish, loose-ish pants when I get there.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:20 PM   #15
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Well, LOL, I definitely don't struggle with getting fat up. Have you tried coconut oil? I make some PB/CO crack stuff every week and occasionally faux LC cheesecake filling. These are SOOO good that I have fight the kids to get my share.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:37 PM   #16
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I'm doing nutritional ketosis in conjunction with JUDDD. On down days, I eat mostly lean protein, such as roasted chicken breast, boiled eggs, and boiled shrimp, plus a little fat (a little cream in coffee, or a tablespoon of coconut oil). On up days, I eat moderate protein--about the same amount as on down days, or a little more, some nonstarchy vegetables, and a lot of fat. To get adequate calories from fat, I drink 1-2 cups of coffee with 1/4 cup HWC, eat avocado, put generous amounts of oil on salad and butter on veggies, make recipes for soup or main dish that incorporate heavy cream, and eat high fat dips (liver pate with lots of butter, cream cheese mixed with smoked salmon, oil-cured tomatoes blended with black olives, etc.) on flax crackers for one of my meals, plus I might eat 1-2 Tablespoons of coconut butter from a spoon. On down days, my calories tend to be 50 percent from protein, 50 percent from fat; on up days, my calories are 70-85 percent fat, 10-15 percent protein, and 10 percent carbs.

I know that most people do JUDDD without doing nutritional ketosis, but I have such a hard time losing weight that I feel I need as many tools as possible to burn fat. I feel very good eating this way, and I think doing LCHF before I started doing JUDDD made it a lot easier to transition into JUDDD.

Those of you doing JUDDD plus LCHF (Cici, Joyjoy, others) might like the book "Lose Weight by Eating (Scandinavian Diet)" by Sten Sture Skaldeman. It's the best practical book I've found for eating LCHF and has lots of good, flexible recipes for getting a high proportion of fat into your diet. It's about $15 in paperback from Amazon.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:38 PM   #17
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Sven, thanks! Fantastic.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:26 PM   #18
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I am following a mainly LC plan but I do have 2 - 3 glasses of wine a week, usually on an UD. I really like the combination of LC and JUDDD - I didn't lose much on LC because I struggle with quantity and high cal food preferences! LC JUDDD allows me to keep to LC without feeling restricted.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:58 PM   #19
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How are you doing Kristin? It is sort of fun to me because I never paid attention to fat, just protein & cals. I am finding that my hunger is almost completely vaporized.

Sven, I have been meaning to purchase the book by Skaldeman, but wanted to finish Phinney's book first. So you think it has a lot more good info & advice???

YamYam- I heard Suzanne Sommers say to stick with white tequila, instead of the reposado. She did research and the doctor recommended this to her. I will have to go look up the why? Enjoy my fav drink ever!!!

Cici, I eat a lot of avocado & olives as well as add EVOO to my salads and even grill my protein in it. I didn't have any difficulty with becoming fat adapted.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:59 PM   #20
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Sunday, I'm great! Loving the higher fat for the moment along with the research on it. We'll see how long it satisfies. ( I could end up doing the Froot Loops JUDDD phase if my experiments continue at this rate. )
My scale is in a moving box somewhere, which adds to my happiness. I love it when my DDs are done for pleasure and not as an attempt to remedy an UD.
My guess is I'm a few pounds over my happiest weight but, hey, in the name of science, I'm willing unless it gets excessive.
Your hunger has vapourized?????? Is that the protein, do you think???
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:01 PM   #21
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I believe it is the higher fat w/ lower protein. I think my problem with stalled weight loss could also have been connected to high protein and too low fat. I had the two flip-flopped. He says that the weight loss may be a slow because you are changing the way your body burns fat. But, I saw some good numbers at the beginning of the week, we will see how I end up when I weigh again.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:06 PM   #22
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Crossing fingers for you, Sunday. Does it bother you at all that at those fat levels we only get to eat about three thimbles full each UD, or is quantity not an issue for you? Thanks for your help on this stuff.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:24 PM   #23
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I think the DD's had already prepped me prior to my changing this direction. Before, I decided to go with 80/15/5, I had done a few fat fasts and I remember thinking that I was still hungry. But with 1500 cals, I have yet to feel hungry or lacking anything nutritionally. I really don't worry too much, if my fat is below 80 because I am not obsessing over it, I just want to try and get as close as possible, but I will not be too freaked about having 75 instead.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:24 AM   #24
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Cici, I feel as though we're doing similar experiments.
JUDDD, so far, has not changed my addictive relationship with carbs much. It may, yet. I remain hopeful.
I also like the LCHF research (Phinney and Volek) and am fascinated by Tim Noakes' change of tune on carbs and sport. I ran two marathons and got fatter and unhealthier during the training for each. It was the simple carb thing.

Anyway, I'm currently doing higher fat (mascarpone alone has almost solved the problem of raising the percentage. Holy god, how did i reach the age of fifty without tasting that????? BP coffee is another great contributor) but lower protein. UDs are just to contentment and DDs are counted. As soon as I feel "fat adapted", I'll ratchet back my UDs according to my recommended numbers.
I know this sounds crazy to many juddders, but living with constant cravings and deteriorating skin and hair quality was a bigger drag for me.
I am convinced that I'll find a middle ground in here somewhere, and be wearing smallish, loose-ish pants when I get there.
Thanks for responding. I could be living in your skin the way you describe it. Going to have to try that mascarpone. Have heard Giada (Sp?) use it many times on her cooking show.

I feel like I don't know enough about this to say much. Also, I have lost my way to the info I read. Will have to start looking again. Is this supposed to be a short term application to get fat adapted then switch to a paleo level LC?

About the only way I can make the 80/15/5 numbers work is on a DD with oils whipped into a liquid and not much else. On a DD I can see it. On UDs the amount of fat needed to get there makes me crazy with the calculations. I will have to do some more reading and maybe find some precalculated meals if those proportions are important. But here's the thing, I love good food and while it should be doable to cut back some of the time and give up wheat all of the time, I am not willing to give up cooking a world of real food in favor of eating nuts and avocados and drinking oil. The theory sounds good but the practical application is something I could only follow short term like medicine.

I turned off the macronutrient counts in my food log and am only looking at calories for now but if something is working or not, the information is all there to examine for future changes. Had a spot on 500 cal day yesterday. First in quite a while.

Sven, Dee, Sunday, Wii, thanks for your input. I will look for the books.

Sunday your early results are encouraging.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:22 AM   #25
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Cici,

One thing for certain that the lower protein is still the most difficult for me.

The interesting thing with JUDDD, is that it really doesn't matter whether you do high/mod or low carb, as long as you follow the rotations. Macros are not important in this equation and that is the main reason that everyone loves JUDDD.

I am basically incorporating this NK WOE, because I was already Paleo LC anyway, just eating too much protein. After watching others on the http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ot...is-thread.html over the past few months especially mom2zeke, Judy & sven as they became keto-adapted. Specifically, for me, my own personal interest is lowering inflammation and changing to more of lower impact exercise with weights/toning as the emphasis.

Truly though, every diet doesn't work the same for everyone equally, this explains why some don't gain weight on a high carb diet and why some can lose weight equally well on lower carb/paleo types of diets.

One shoe obviously does not fit all, and for some, only one shoe fits!
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:45 AM   #26
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Sven,
Since you are JUDDD & NK, do you mind sharing with me what numbers you use for DD? I have wondered how much higher to go on DD without interrupting my sirt-1??? I have naturally lowered my UD due to I am just not hungry. Every weekend, my DD is around 700.
Also, I would love to know how long you have been JUDDDing and what your seeing in losses. 1 lbs or more weekly? Thanks!

Cici, I apologize for threadjacking, I just realized that Sven may have info beneficial to both Kristin & I.

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:38 AM   #27
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No problem, Sunday. Love information.

Prior to JUDDD was eating whole clean foods and calorie counting. I really tried JUDDD with all foods but basically got sick and fell apart by 8 weeks in. My fault for eating things that never worked well for me. Just hoped the magic would make it possible. I generally identify with Kristen because of our mutual sensitivity to carbs. Also, I know I am wheat/dairy sensitive and the easiest way to get everything out of my system is LC. LCHF is my way of ripping the bandaide off. Thought it might speed up the process.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:02 PM   #28
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Start Date: JUDDD - 2/01/12 Began at 200, Goal 130
Cici & Kristin,

I can't be for certain if it is the wine that caused me problems early on in my JUDDDing or if it was the fact that I was very hungry the next DD after having a glass or two?

Like you, I also worried about an evening glass of wine & stalls and I found the following on the paleo site that I visit regularly.

My understanding has been that alcohol stops ketosis because your body preferentially burns the alcohol before anything else. If you're burning alcohol instead of fat, you aren't producing ketones. However, it's still not the same as eating a bunch of carbs, because it only stops the burning of fat; it doesn't reverse the process by raising insulin levels and shifting the body into fat storage mode. As soon as the alcohol is gone, your body should go right back to burning fat, without the need to alter its hormonal makeup. So if you have to choose between vodka or soda, take the vodka. Alcohol with carbs is the worst, because you burn the alcohol, leaving the carbs nowhere to go except into storage, hence the beer belly.

The Drs. Eades seem to have good luck with dry red wine, not the sweet, but they make sure to count the carbs in it. They like it and think it has beneficial effects, so it's worth it to them to cut food carbs back a bit to make room for a glass or two of wine.

If you must drink alcohol, wine is an acceptable addition to levels beyond the Induction diet. If wine does not suit your taste, straight liquor such as scotch, rye, vodka, and gin would be appropriate, as long as the mixer is sugarless; this means no juice, tonic water; or non-diet soda. Seltzer and diet soda are appropriate.

Last edited by sunday; 11-17-2012 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:24 PM   #29
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This is just the answer I was looking for. Thanks, Sunday
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:04 PM   #30
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WOE: JUDDD restart 8/25/2014
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Such an interesting thread. I love how you all dig so deep and support each other.

I've been a bit absent this past week, had trouble just keeping up with my User Control Panel threads. Easy to miss some of the really good info being passed around.

Had a great evening after a days fasting, testing the wine theory! Plan a similar day tomorrow.....
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