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Old 09-03-2012, 02:37 PM   #1
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adding new supplements like 5htp

Stopped pterostilbene and all other supps for a few days. Ate something I shouldn't for my birthday and cannot get my insides friendly again. Why do I fall away from foods that heal and let something nasty in? Eater 's remorse.
been reading the threads about alkaline water etc. Thinking of trying baking soda or natural calm to my water. I already add potassium frequently. Don't want to do citrus regularly, its just too hard on tooth enamel, especially for a wine drinker. Wink wink.
ordered grapefruit seed extract to kill yeast(mostly because it cannot hurt, right?) refilled d.e container and organized the supplement tray. Need to do kinesiology testing on the pile again.
Then ordered acetyl l -carnitine to fight hunger and help my brain, and 5htp for seratonin. Is anyone working on sleep issues trying tryptophan or 5htp? New b complex to help the 5htp do its thing. Depression has been a lurker in my life and I really want to fight it and win (naturally, of course) . Don't want to hit a low and lose myself again. Down day tomorrow is a brand new day.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:59 PM   #2
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I'll follow with interest.

I'm not a supplement taker, at all really, other than Vit D3 usually, fish oil gels on rare occasions, and multi vits on even more rare occasions, although I do eat a huge variety of fruits and vegetables and all other foods, so hope that counts enough.

Hope you'll post how you do, well what you are wanting to attain, and how you think you do with it. Good luck!
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:03 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by b_lou_who View Post
Why do I fall away from foods that heal and let something nasty in?
My personal theory is from time to time we need to overindulge lest we forget the reasons we usually abstain. And what better day to overdo and live to regret the nosh than a birthday? HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! Happy back-on-track, lookin' and feelin' gooooood!
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:53 AM   #4
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God, I take so many supplements at the moments I rattle.

The most important are my fish oils and D3 and co-enzyme q10 but I also do the silica water for my nails and I think I can see results with my skin too. I added pomegranate juice last week as it helps with heart health and my mum is struggling with this in her old age. I just wish she'd know about using IF and supplements for blood pressure before they got her on all the meds. I'm sure they make her ill.

Then multi mineral, B vits, Lycopene for skin, Magnesium Citrate (for something although I can't remember what now!) kelp for my thyroid, vit C, MSM for skin hair and nails and Melatonin for sleep a few times a week.

If you take Melatonin you do sleep very heavily and it can make you a bit sleepy late in the day but you wake up feeling fantastic. I think it's meant to help with depression too as it is a precursor to serotin. It's certainly a powerful anti-oxidant and we stop producing as much as we age.

When I was widowed many years ago (I re-married) I took Tryptophan to help me through and found it very good. It does give you a feeling of slight euphoria and can make you a bit spaced. But they banned it in the UK after a bad batch got released in America. 5HTP is meant to be more effective but I've not tried it.

The more I read about the power of our diet the more I think a lot of depression and anxiety is diet based.

Natural Cures for Depression: The Right Diet can Alleviate Depression

My son had problems with depression at uni and looking at his diet I was not surprised. Since he's been home and eating proper food again his mood is back to sunny and optimistic.

Sorry - bit of a ramble. Pet subject.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:16 AM   #5
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I think it's meant to help with depression too as it is a precursor to serotin
Actually, serotonin is a precursor to melatonin.


b-lou,
Have you ever tried SAM-e for your depression? It increases serotonin production (or availability or something, not sure exactly how it works), which may help with sleep issues, too.

I've been able to fall asleep the last 4 nights or so without melatonin or any other supplement...just actually felt tired & sleepy!

And yesterday I ordered something called HydrogenBoost that I'm super-excited to try.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:24 AM   #6
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I started taking Raspberry Ketones today in the hope that the hype is real and it actually moves the needle on the scale. I will report back.
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Old 09-04-2012, 05:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by gotsomeold View Post
My personal theory is from time to time we need to overindulge lest we forget the reasons we usually abstain. And what better day to overdo and live to regret the nosh than a birthday? HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! Happy back-on-track, lookin' and feelin' gooooood!
1st
I just had eaters remorse yesterday... pancakes... why, why, why?
Every time I eat them I want to sleep for the rest of the day.
Today I bounced up a pound and for me a pound is a bounce of astronomical proportions! I know it will be gone by tomorrow if I sleep well tonight, but the pancake thing is rediculous...
Insanity= doing the samething over again- expecting a different result.
The result is never different if I eat pancakes!
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:09 AM   #8
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Have you ever tried SAM-e for your depression? It increases serotonin production (or availability or something, not sure exactly how it works), which may help with sleep issues, too.
I haven't, but I am willing. How much SAM-e do you take?
Have you tried the 5htp?
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:21 AM   #9
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I *may* have tried the 5htp a few years ago, but can't remember anything about it if I did.

I don't currently take SAM-e because I am on a pharmaceutical anti-depressant.
I also found out that people with bipolar disorder shouldn't take it; too much serotonin can cause manic episodes. I used to have them every two weeks, and 1 episode=3 nights of no sleep, followed by a crash and 3 days of crying/sleeping.

However, when I *did* take it, I felt pretty darn good. Sometimes I'd find myself crying for no reason around 2 or 3 in the afternoon...I'd get home from work, and discover that I had forgotten to take my morning dose. So, it really did help me a lot--at least, day to day. Now I wonder if it made my episodes worse, though.

IIRC, I was taking 400mg twice a day. 200mg might be sufficient. I read a little bit about it (to refresh my memory) after I posted yesterday, and some people say that after a week or so, it builds up in your system enough that you should take a smaller dose...like 1/2 or 1/4 of what you took at the beginning.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:46 AM   #10
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thank you! I will do some reading
sounds like the advice about sam-e is really close to that for 5htp
I know you shouldn't do either when on another antidepressant.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:24 AM   #11
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So is it depression if you can't sleep; or if you only get depressed when you can't sleep is it not sleeping that gives you depression? I'm not making a funny here. I'm serious. I'm starting to panic because I can't sleep. I went to bed tired the last 3 nights and still can't sleep (with melatonin and other sleep-helping herbs) unless I drug myself. Literally with drugs-flexiril and another one I can't remember the name of. And sometimes that doesn't even work-like I'm TIRED and can't sleep. I'm stumped. It's never been this bad before. Could this be because of JUDDD? I'm not even doing that full on, I'm on maintenance and have done too many "medium" days anyway. There seems to be no pattern either, not sleeping/or sleeping ok on DD or UD, can't see a correlation.

I'm about ready to stop EVERY single supplement for about a week and start completely over one at a time. I mean everything, even the multiple. (I probably will still take magnesium and potassium or I get killer leg cramps)
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:12 PM   #12
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So is it depression if you can't sleep; or if you only get depressed when you can't sleep is it not sleeping that gives you depression? I'm not making a funny here. I'm serious. I'm starting to panic because I can't sleep. I went to bed tired the last 3 nights and still can't sleep (with melatonin and other sleep-helping herbs) unless I drug myself. Literally with drugs-flexiril and another one I can't remember the name of. And sometimes that doesn't even work-like I'm TIRED and can't sleep. I'm stumped. It's never been this bad before. Could this be because of JUDDD? I'm not even doing that full on, I'm on maintenance and have done too many "medium" days anyway. There seems to be no pattern either, not sleeping/or sleeping ok on DD or UD, can't see a correlation.

I'm about ready to stop EVERY single supplement for about a week and start completely over one at a time. I mean everything, even the multiple. (I probably will still take magnesium and potassium or I get killer leg cramps)
You may actually have to be off of your supplement chemical soup for longer than just a week. I know we tend to jump on the touted benefits of a world of supplements here, and when it seems like everyone else to taking them, it does sound like there must be a huge benefit to be had from them. And there may be... but I'm really leery of just reading some book or blogger or whatever and then swallowing these various pills and potions.

I really think it's possible to finally get ourselves to where our body just doesn't work very well anymore, it is so screwed up by extra doses of this and that that it has long since abandoned any pretense of finding it's own healthy balance, and it can't fix itself because it's constantly being bombarded with jolts of chemical we swallow in the hopes we're going to force the response we want.

And, I absolutely know that I may be completely wrong about this. LOL I just know of two women who had to be taken off of everything they were taking because it was just snowballing within them. Everything they took altered them a little, and then they had to take something else to produce what would balance out the first off kilter thing, and finally they were sort of coo-coo. One woman was just meds from different doctors, and the other was her self-prescribed supplements interacting with some meds, I think. So maybe you aren't on anything that will interact or alter how your body is supposed to work, and hopefully is being healed to work correctly.

Well, I also know that I'm probably in the minority by not taking all the supplements, so I'm probably not the best one to listen to.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:12 PM   #13
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Pat, I agree with you. I only take a multivitamin and a Calcium/D3 combo, and only because I was told to by my doctor. Honestly, if it weren't for my thyroid, I wouldn't even take those. I keep trying different supplements and don't really see any benefits, so then I stop taking them. I'm pretty much determined not to try anything new either. So we can be in the minority together.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:18 PM   #14
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Pat, I agree with you. I only take a multivitamin and a Calcium/D3 combo, and only because I was told to by my doctor. Honestly, if it weren't for my thyroid, I wouldn't even take those. I keep trying different supplements and don't really see any benefits, so then I stop taking them. I'm pretty much determined not to try anything new either. So we can be in the minority together.
I think we are in the minority.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:32 PM   #15
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Well, up until a little while ago, I wasn't taking ANYTHING. I was a vitamin-resistor! LOL even though I grew up in a house where taking mass doses of supplements was normal. I just hate pills! of all kinds! I won't even take hardly any of the meds my doc wants me to take for pain or muscle relaxing due to my situation.

The sleeplessness coincides, I THINK anyway, with starting back on a supplement regimen. I was taking a multiple, magnesium, potassium, C, D3, E, DHEA, glucosamine, chondroitan, kelp, and then at night, melatonin, sleepy herbs, and more magnesium. I recently added some more, gotu kolu or something like that, and that homeopathic arthritis pain Rhumatol. Since I started everything more or less at the same time I do not know what to think. I could be completely crazy, but it seems like something I'm taking has really set me on a insomniac loop. I will take magnesium and potassium and my D3 and maybe nothing else for a bit. I can't imagine the C or the multiple or anything else in my list would cause sleeplessness but I don't know what else to do. Seems like ADDING something else to make me sleepy is not working. I've tried gaba, theanine, hops, valerian, and a special set of them that is formulated for sleep. At this point, I'm thinking tequila every night sounds good!
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:25 PM   #16
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my naturopath advised against me taking melatonin years ago. said it is good for men, mostly bad for women (contributes to weight gain etc) so I don't really ever take it except once in a blue moon for jetlag. I have tried GABA too, but I never felt quite right so I discontinued. Sleepy herbs will help me if I take them once rarely, but not several days in a row. Fortunately I seem to be sleeping pretty well right now. For me that seems to be much more tied into light and electronics. Also, avoiding caffeine and stimulants.
I go through phases of taking nothing at all, then bouts of trying to take everything.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:44 PM   #17
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my naturopath advised against me taking melatonin years ago. said it is good for men, mostly bad for women (contributes to weight gain etc) so I don't really ever take it except once in a blue moon for jetlag. I have tried GABA too, but I never felt quite right so I discontinued. Sleepy herbs will help me if I take them once rarely, but not several days in a row. Fortunately I seem to be sleeping pretty well right now. For me that seems to be much more tied into light and electronics. Also, avoiding caffeine and stimulants.
I go through phases of taking nothing at all, then bouts of trying to take everything.
That's interesting about the melatonin.

I read an paper once that reported on an experiment done on people (I think individually) who spent some time completely without windows to the outdoors, and there were no clocks available for them to know what the time was.. they just turned the lights off when they wanted it to be night and flipped the lights back on when they wanted it to be daytime.

After awhile, they fell in complete sync with their proper circadian rhythms but developed a day that tended to be 25 hours long instead of 24 hours. I wonder what that was all about?
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:15 PM   #18
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So is it depression if you can't sleep; or if you only get depressed when you can't sleep is it not sleeping that gives you depression? I'm not making a funny here. I'm serious. I'm starting to panic because I can't sleep. I went to bed tired the last 3 nights and still can't sleep (with melatonin and other sleep-helping herbs) unless I drug myself. Literally with drugs-flexiril and another one I can't remember the name of. And sometimes that doesn't even work-like I'm TIRED and can't sleep. I'm stumped. It's never been this bad before. Could this be because of JUDDD? I'm not even doing that full on, I'm on maintenance and have done too many "medium" days anyway. There seems to be no pattern either, not sleeping/or sleeping ok on DD or UD, can't see a correlation.

I'm about ready to stop EVERY single supplement for about a week and start completely over one at a time. I mean everything, even the multiple. (I probably will still take magnesium and potassium or I get killer leg cramps)
I'm sorry you are going through this. I know we've discussed it on some other threads. I've had insomnia for years (part of my bipolar disorder) and I hate, hate, hate it.

Does lack of sleep cause depression, or does depression cause lack of sleep?

I think *not* sleeping can certainly lead to depression. There are all sorts of hormonal things that are supposed to happen when we sleep, so when we don't, a lot of things get out of whack.

But it's also sort of chicken-or-egg situation. Serotonin is a precursor to melatonin. If you're not making enough serotonin, you will probably feel depressed. And you also won't be making enough melatonin, which will keep you from falling asleep.

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The sleeplessness coincides, I THINK anyway, with starting back on a supplement regimen. I was taking a multiple, magnesium, potassium, C, D3, E, DHEA, glucosamine, chondroitan, kelp, and then at night, melatonin, sleepy herbs, and more magnesium. I recently added some more, gotu kolu or something like that, and that homeopathic arthritis pain Rhumatol. ... I will take magnesium and potassium and my D3 and maybe nothing else for a bit.
What time do you take the DHEA and the kelp?
These are the only things on your list that I could see affecting your sleep. Some of them (magnesium, especially) should be helping you sleep!
I've read that DHEA should only be taken in the morning, as some people find it gives them energy.
Kelp can stimulate the thyroid, so that's something else I would take only in the morning.

IDK if this is logical, but I take my D in the morning only. I figure it's sort of connected to sunlight, which affects our circadian rhythm, so I don't want my body to think it's getting sunlight too late in the day.

Do you drink coffee or eat chocolate at all?
I am super-sensitive to caffeine. When I was talking about this with my mom, who also has a hard time falling asleep, she mentioned that she can't even have chocolate in the late afternoon or evening. I don't eat much in the way of desserts or baked goods, but I sure love a little chocolate now and then!

I think it would be a very good idea to stop everything (except the magnesium & potassium) for a week and then add things back in one at a time, for about a week before adding the next thing.

Quote:
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After awhile, they fell in complete sync with their proper circadian rhythms but developed a day that tended to be 25 hours long instead of 24 hours. I wonder what that was all about?
I remember reading about that, too! Was the Earth farther away from the sun at some point?

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Old 09-06-2012, 11:13 AM   #19
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Ok, I have quit everything but potassium and magnesium. Will re-start D3 in a few days, and will only take it in the morning. (I had read that somewhere, and had just switched to daytime, I had been taking it at night). I had only taken kelp in the morning.

I was taking my multiple one in the am and one in the pm. A few days before I stopped all of them, I switched to just the morning for the same reason, thinking maybe something was energizing me at night. The DHEA, I had been told before to take it in the evening. So I will switch that to the morning too.

UGH!
I slept last night, only because I took a flexiril and an anti-anxiety BOTH which is ok to do but which I hate, because you know I hate pills LOL.... I so want to just be normal where sleep is concerned. I've always had trouble sleeping but this is ridiculous.

Did I read somewhere that coconut oil could be giving me energy too? I was taking it at night with my last vitamins for "fat" to help the vitamins get where they need to go. I might not do that anymore also, although last night I had about a big teaspoon and still slept ok. But I was drugged so who knows.

I only have coffee in the morning, 2 cups, and that's it. I don't have any diet colas or anything with caffeine in the evenings, once in a great while a couple teensy squares of chocolate but I will monitor that as well.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:58 AM   #20
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I've heard several times that you shouldn't take coconut oil at night because it revs the metabolism and gives energy.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:27 PM   #21
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a very small percentage of people are "reverse responders" to magnesium and it wires them instead of calming. would have to evaluate on just that supplement alone I would imagine.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:05 PM   #22
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Ok, I have quit everything but potassium and magnesium. Will re-start D3 in a few days, and will only take it in the morning. (I had read that somewhere, and had just switched to daytime, I had been taking it at night). I had only taken kelp in the morning.

I was taking my multiple one in the am and one in the pm. A few days before I stopped all of them, I switched to just the morning for the same reason, thinking maybe something was energizing me at night. The DHEA, I had been told before to take it in the evening. So I will switch that to the morning too.

UGH!
I slept last night, only because I took a flexiril and an anti-anxiety BOTH which is ok to do but which I hate, because you know I hate pills LOL.... I so want to just be normal where sleep is concerned. I've always had trouble sleeping but this is ridiculous.

Did I read somewhere that coconut oil could be giving me energy too? I was taking it at night with my last vitamins for "fat" to help the vitamins get where they need to go. I might not do that anymore also, although last night I had about a big teaspoon and still slept ok. But I was drugged so who knows.

I only have coffee in the morning, 2 cups, and that's it. I don't have any diet colas or anything with caffeine in the evenings, once in a great while a couple teensy squares of chocolate but I will monitor that as well.
Wow, the coconut oil at night could be and probably is your main problem with sleeplessness.

I have read up a lot on CO. It is proven to be a thermogenic. That means it revs up your metabolism and elevates the calorie burning and heat in your body. I never, ever take it in the evening. Immediately after eating coconut oil, I feel very warm and I have tons of energy. Do not take it at night!
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:06 PM   #23
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When I talk "calm" the magnesium fizzy drink, I feel relaxed. So that form of it I'm guessing is ok for me. I took some mag, potassium, D3, and a B12 this morning. Nothing else for a week, I think.

As much as I hated to, I refilled my anti-anxiety med the doc gave me to sleep (take very infrequently instead of a sleeping pill).
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #24
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I took some coconut oil last night and slept, but I did drug myself so who knows. I guess in light of all these issues, maybe I should not even EAT at night LOL.....

What would be safe to eat at night? Meat? I always had a snack with my vitamins - but I am not going to take any vitamins at night except mag/potassium for now.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #25
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Well, Lou, I just ordered some 5-htp because of your recommendation. I had never even heard of it before reading this thread. I liked the description of it on Netrition and was putting in an order so decided I will try it. I'm a big believer in a great night's sleep for health and weight loss. Anything that will support and enhance sleep sounds good to me.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:48 PM   #26
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What would be safe to eat at night? Meat? I always had a snack with my vitamins - but I am not going to take any vitamins at night except mag/potassium for now.
How about something like almonds or walnuts?

PS--I, too, would not be surprised if coconut oil is the source of your problems. *So* many people (here in JUDDDland, in the Main Lobby, on Paleo sites, in the coconut oil reviews on vitamin sites) say it gives them energy and/or makes them feel warm.

Did I understand correctly, that you didn't really have a problem with insomnia until recently?

(I've had my problem for at least 15 years.)

Last edited by piratejenny; 09-06-2012 at 01:52 PM.. Reason: PS
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:42 PM   #27
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I'm definitely rattling around with stargazer, and taking several of the ones she takes, as well. Although ubiquinol rather than CoQ10. b lou who, you didn't say a lot about what vitamins you're already taking, so I'll just chime in with some basic vitamin thoughts.

There are studies that back up both B-12 and B-6 for aiding your body's melatonin production, and therefore, sleep. I personally think the link with B12 is the easiest for most to accept because so many people have said for decades that they sleep better after a B-12 shot (and feel more alert after their night's sleep). But in theory, because B-6 helps create seratonin and seratonin helps create melatonin, there's pretty good evidence for it, too. I figure, since the whole B complex is so good for us, why not just be sure to get it all. I take a whole-food multi and am very happy with its distribution of the B complex. Can't stress enough that these are not just pills full of chemicals but a WHOLE FOOD multi.

If I were concerned about the spectrum of mood/sleep concerns, I might even go over to a sublingual (under the tongue) B complex, bypassing the digestive system and getting the B vitamins into my system more efficiently.

I think I'd also be interested in getting a reading on my Vit D blood level, since that's so intertwined with depression (check that out on the net, don't take my word for it). Assuming someone's in my hemisphere, here at the end of summer, it should be about as high as your lifestyle (the amount of sun you get) is going to get it. So if you found it wasn't optimal, you'd have a possible clue that your body needs more supplementation.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:51 PM   #28
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I've ALWAYS been a super-duper light sleeper, if something wakes me up after I've been asleep I'm in big trouble. Also, when I'm stressed, I wake up really early - like ridiculously early, as if my brain is saying, "Get up, you got stuff to do!" But recently, it's gotten horrible..... can't even GET to sleep, more than the hour or it usually has been. Half the time on the weekend when DH is off work and home we don't even sleep in the same bed because he is a waker-upper for me, he gets up to visit the bathroom in the middle of the night and wakes me up. So for years, we hardly sleep together because of my issues. He usually gets up when I go to bed (he's a shift worker).

I realized awhile ago that the birds around my house (not complaining about birds, I'm lucky to be living where I am where the sound of birds is abundant) was waking me early, so I decided to wear ear plugs to bed. I always draw the shades, I have to have complete dark. I've been doing everything I possibly can. I took melatonin off and on through the years. But it's gotten worse since JUDDDing, but that might or might not be it. It didn't happen when I first started JUDDD, or on vacation, still JUDDDing, it happened sometime in the last few weeks. I only started adding coconut oil in the last 10 days or so.

I always have at least ONE night a week where I don't sleep, and usually several nights where I sleep 4-5-6 hours, but 2-3 together in a row with virtually no sleep (maybe 2 hours?) is making me cranky. Good thing I drugged myself last night. Problem is, I can't anticipate WHEN it's going to happen, either. Like 2 nights ago, I was actually SLEEPY when I went to bed, and I didn't fall asleep until 5-6 am. If I had some kind of indication, then I guess I could drug myself when I thought that was going to be the case. Honestly very frustrated about it, but trying just to get through the day tired is hard enough without letting myself dwell, ya know

So I appreciate ANY and ALL suggestions. I will stay away from coconut oil at night. I will just eat a light snack before bed, if any. I will take all vitamins in the morning or early in the day, except magnesium/potassium. And I will continue to hope for the best!
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:55 PM   #29
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If I were concerned about the spectrum of mood/sleep concerns, I might even go over to a sublingual (under the tongue) B complex, bypassing the digestive system and getting the B vitamins into my system more efficiently.

I think I'd also be interested in getting a reading on my Vit D blood level, since that's so intertwined with depression (check that out on the net, don't take my word for it). Assuming someone's in my hemisphere, here at the end of summer, it should be about as high as your lifestyle (the amount of sun you get) is going to get it. So if you found it wasn't optimal, you'd have a possible clue that your body needs more supplementation.
DO you have suggestions for type of sublingual b-complex? When I take my B complex I burp it all dang day. Literally. I have two different types and for my entire life they've done that to me. So much so I quit them completely. Tried again the other day, and yup. I'd love to get one in that wasn't like that.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:53 PM   #30
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C'Marie, I'd definitely suggest the sublingual ones for you, then. There are two types - the tablets that dissolve under the tongue and the sprays that you spray under the tongue or onto the inner cheeks. You're just getting this into your system through the soft tissues of the mouth, rather than traversing your digestive system. The word to look for regarding B-12 is methylcobalamin rather than the synthetic cyanocobalamin, which has to be converted by the body to the natural form. Many people say that the sprays are better tasting, if only because you taste them for a shorter period of time.

Another stray thought on sleep is that, in general for women, sometimes it's the simple ordinary old loss of estrogen and progesterone that does a number on our sleep? Not necessarily advocating that anyone check out bioidentical hormones, but it's worth keeping some records on what the time of life is and what the menstrual cycle is doing at onset of these problems in case they get worse and you want to seek out a doctor. Don't anybody get upset with me for suggesting age-related factors - as far as I know we are all 29 like me!
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