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Old 08-31-2012, 04:49 AM   #1
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Saving All the Calories For Late Afternoon?

Having read a lot lately about IF (Thanks so much to Sunday for the sticky thread) it seems to me that we would do better fasting through breakfast and maybe lunch as well and only eating inside a window of 5-7 hours each day. For some versions of IF this is all you have to do to get lean. So I'm trying to eat on both UDs and DDs only after 2 or 3 pm and stop eating after 8.00pm. Women seem to thrive on a slightly more generous eating "window" than men.

Outside of the window you don't take in any calories except a little coconut oil in coffee. Pure fat doesn't seem to break the fast.

I've been JUDDDing for nearly five months now and even with a few naughty breaks I seem to have kept the hunger taming effects. So it's not hard for me to go this long. It seems to me that still eating, even though it is at a fraction of your regular intake, is not true fasting and I'm keen to get the health benefits that are proven with fasting.

I was wondering what experience you lovely ladies have had doing this VS eating your 500 cals throughout the day.
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:58 AM   #2
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Hi, stargazer!

The only drawback to this that I know of is just in case someone has adrenal issues. Tina learned that her physician wanted her to be sure to have a little breakfast, because it would help her with adrenal issues. Pirate Jenny has an interesting thread partly about this, and partly about blood sugar/time-of-eating thoughts.

Q: NOT fasting better for adrenals (+ cortisol, blood glucose, etc)?

If these are not an issue, I think saving calories for afternoon sounds like an excellent way to get calories in while taking advantage of longer spans of fasting for health.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:28 AM   #3
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I`m currently experimenting with a 4 hour eating window starting at 5 pm and so far so good. I don`t do JUDDD, it`s more like The Warrior Diet... without calories during the day. I only have tea, black coffee and water outside of my window and during my window I must say, I do feast. So far I`m maintaining, time will tell. I like IF for the convenience and also the healing properties of fasting like my facial dermatitis finally clearing up.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:56 AM   #4
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Actually, on JUDDD it really doesn't matter when or how we eat our Down Day calories. It was found that eating as few calories as we do on those days doesn't really interfere with the *fast*. I suppose saving them all to eat at one big meal might be enough to push your body out of its fasting state, if you eat a lot more DD calories than most hold to, but many here do eat a single low calorie meal at the end of each Down Day, and they still seem to make JUDDD work for them.

I've done everything from eating a tiny bit every hour throughout the Down Day, to eating three meals a day, to saving it all for an evening meal, and I've never noticed a dime's worth of difference in how well JUDDD worked for me, eating those varying ways. So I just recommend you take in your food calories as feels most comfortable to you on your Down Days, and count on JUDDD working for you regardless.

If you were to save all your DD calories for one single evening meal on JUDDD, there is still a BIG difference between doing that and doing most other *eat-once-a-day* or *eat-only-within-a-open-window* type of plans, and it is this: On those plans you would be eating more than the few Down Day calories we hold to here. Your fast would be broken every single day at that eating time because of the much higher calorie intake you would enjoy at those eating times.

On JUDDD, you are not consuming enough calories on DDs, even if you save them all for a single meal, for your fasting state to suffer much of an interruption, so your fasting state continues all the way from the end of your last Up Day, through that night, all of the hours of your DD, and all through the hours of that night, and on into the morning when you finally break your fast at breakfast or brunch or whenever. As we say.. usually somewhere in the time frame of experiencing a fasted state for about 36 hours.
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Old 08-31-2012, 06:01 AM   #5
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Hi, stargazer!

The only drawback to this that I know of is just in case someone has adrenal issues. Tina learned that her physician wanted her to be sure to have a little breakfast, because it would help her with adrenal issues. Pirate Jenny has an interesting thread partly about this, and partly about blood sugar/time-of-eating thoughts.

Q: NOT fasting better for adrenals (+ cortisol, blood glucose, etc)?

If these are not an issue, I think saving calories for afternoon sounds like an excellent way to get calories in while taking advantage of longer spans of fasting for health.
These are the folks who benefit from eating their DD calories a little at a time, spread out over the length of their entire day. They never eat much, but they never go very long without the next little mini-meal. That enables them to remain pretty stable during the course of their DD fast.

More and more it appears that regardless of our physical need or health problem, we can still do JUDDD. There is an eating schedule that will enable us and even benefit us.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:02 AM   #6
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These are the folks who benefit from eating their DD calories a little at a time, spread out over the length of their entire day. They never eat much, but they never go very long without the next little mini-meal. That enables them to remain pretty stable during the course of their DD fast.

More and more it appears that regardless of our physical need or health problem, we can still do JUDDD. There is an eating schedule that will enable us and even benefit us.
I agree. I've found that I absolutely have to have some protein in the morning (I'm pre-Diabetic, Insulin Resistant, and have PCOS) on Down Days... or I'm irritable and grouchy all day long. I tried the "skipping breakfast and not eating until afternoon" pattern, and I tried the "eating only one meal in the evening" pattern. I either ended up binging in the evening, or just being "Mrs. Grumpy Mom" (as my 11yo calls it) every day. I NEED a bit of food in the morning. Once I changed to a pattern that includes that -- cottage cheese before I head out to work, coffee at work until mid-afternoon, small snack/meal around 1 or 2, meal at home in the evening -- it made all the difference. I find I need more than the 450 calories of the 25% level of JUDDD, but I do just fine at 500-700 on DDs. It allows me to work this plan, while still functioning well.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:03 AM   #7
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stargazer,

It helped me to break a stall, but I don't recommend this if you are presently losing by eating breakfast. I mean why change what is working for you??? I wasn't losing or barely. I have seen a few others who aren't losing or stalled and this is only an option if they feel they need to do it. After watching the video, it confirmed that I needed change one thing. I figure if I only get 360 calories, might as well have them in one meal at 12:30 on DD and then have a true 17 hour fast. On UD, I am eating breakfast if I have 17 hour break. It is working!
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:22 AM   #8
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Okay, Stargazer, I just read your post on the other thread and it sounds like you have already been doing this fasting for 17 hours? I would love to know what difference you have noticed! I am new at this and breaking my stall was very freeing to me. I feel like I lose so slow and I still have a lot to lose, so it is not because I am close to my goal.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:23 AM   #9
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I too am a breakfast eater. My largest meal on DD's is my breakfast eaten around 6am. I found that having three small meals each DD is what works best for me although I tried all of the other options, I settled on three small meals. All protein by the way. I actually did not realize that until I saw it in print on the DD menu thread.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:24 AM   #10
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One more question, do you do the HIIT early morning? While fasted? This is something I want to include as well.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:02 AM   #11
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If you watched the BBC special and have read Mosley's updates, you will see that the benefits were still reached and he ate breakfast and dinner.

In some of the research, it has been stated that it doesn't matter but I still wonder if eating small amts would keep the body in fasting mode for the whole 30+ hours where as a big meal or two in a smaller window would do the opposite.

Actually, consuming anything other than water is not true fasting since compounds in other beverages effect the metabolism.....not saying it's bad, just sayin'.

But, really, it's whatever works for the individual.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:09 AM   #12
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Yes, he only fasted 2 days per week as well. I am hoping to transition to that when I reach my goal weight.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:11 AM   #13
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Jem, I wondered about the same as you have on the small window doing the opposite? So that I why I caution that it may just be me and my sluggishness that needed the longer fasted state?
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:20 AM   #14
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Sunday, as I said, whatever works. It's too bad we are not comparing those same markers at the beginning an end....but having them be normal at 2 mos in would be awesome.

One other thing is that Mosley states that he ate normally over the 5 days and did not have the urge to gorge.
That is another thing; those 5 days are not UUAD's. I don't know if it would be as effective if that was the case...unlike ADF which is very forgiving in that area.

One of our JUDDD buds on the other forum is beginning her third week of 5/2 and liking it.
It seems effective for maint.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:25 AM   #15
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If you watched the BBC special and have read Mosley's updates, you will see that the benefits were still reached and he ate breakfast and dinner.

In some of the research, it has been stated that it doesn't matter but I still wonder if eating small amts would keep the body in fasting mode for the whole 30+ hours where as a big meal or two in a smaller window would do the opposite.

Actually, consuming anything other than water is not true fasting since compounds in other beverages effect the metabolism.....not saying it's bad, just sayin'.

But, really, it's whatever works for the individual.
I agree here, but have to also say.. Yes, but....

For the purposes of using the term *fasting* in the JUDDD context, it has to do with being so low in calories for an extended period of time that the activation of the SIRT-1 gene is triggered, the so-called "skinny gene" as Dr. J. referred to it in his writing. The SIRT-1 is triggered during times of famine and extreme food scarcity, and happily, it was found that a fast that allowed a very few hundred calories in worked as well as a total and complete fast in triggering the expression of this gene.

So on JUDDD, despite eating a very few hundred calories on our DDs, we are basically close enough to true and pure fasting as to allow the SIRT-1 gene to activate. We are going the whole of our DD, plus the night before, plus the night after, until we break the fast on our following UD. So counting the whole of the DD plus the two nights on either end of it, that's nearly true fasting for that period of about 36 hours. That's why we're able to get SIRT-1 turned on so reliably and so strongly from this Alternate Day plan.

Since the SIRT1 gene, or "skinny gene," assists with weight loss by inhibiting fat storage and increasing fat metabolism, as Dr. J. writes in his book, I really wanted as much expression from this gene as I could get!!! Thus my choice to do JUDDD over other calorie restriction plans. Apparently this gene's expression and benefit to us isn't a simple *on* or *off* thing, like a light switch being flipped, and so I want it expressing itself as strongly as possible. As a rescue gene that inhibits fat storage and increases fat metabolism, I want it expressing itself as strongly as possible in my body! I want all the help I can get.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:33 AM   #16
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I agree on the Sirt 1 being activated with low cals and as Dr. J says we have the moving scale of 20 to 45% as well.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:38 AM   #17
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Stargazer, I just want to mention if you start experiencing sleeping difficulties/insomnia, or a stall, it might be an indication that the longer fasting window is not optimal for you.

But, good luck! I hope you rock it!!!
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:04 AM   #18
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I'm with ya, Pat!!

You will never hear me say that 'true fasting' (F word) is better and I think that current research is proving that.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:02 AM   #19
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So I'm trying to eat on both UDs and DDs only after 2 or 3 pm and stop eating after 8.00pm.
I'm thinking about this for both DD and UD too. I'm often not really hungry on UDs until at least lunchtime or later. I think I'll experiment with this for a week or so and see how having a 5 hour window works. I'll try to journal my results and share them.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:55 AM   #20
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Pat, that was a very good restatement of the facts about SIRT-1 gene expression. It makes me think that as we talk about "fasting" here we need to be clearer. Instead of saying "fasting" in my own post above for instance, I would have communicated better if I'd said, "full fasting".

As JUDDDers, we used to seldom hear or use the word "fast" and said "calorie restriction" instead. But the language is changing around us, and we are, of course, part of (even, I would venture to say, a pioneering part of) the Intermittent Fasting (IF) movement/studies, which it is appropriate for us to embrace.

I used to resist saying that I fast, but in the scientific context, I do, even though I eat small amounts throughout my fasting days.

"My way of eating is the Intermittent Calorie Restriction type of fasting." How's that?
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:45 AM   #21
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Pat, that was a very good restatement of the facts about SIRT-1 gene expression. It makes me think that as we talk about "fasting" here we need to be clearer. Instead of saying "fasting" in my own post above for instance, I would have communicated better if I'd said, "full fasting".

As JUDDDers, we used to seldom hear or use the word "fast" and said "calorie restriction" instead. But the language is changing around us, and we are, of course, part of (even, I would venture to say, a pioneering part of) the Intermittent Fasting (IF) movement/studies, which it is appropriate for us to embrace.

I used to resist saying that I fast, but in the scientific context, I do, even though I eat small amounts throughout my fasting days.

"My way of eating is the Intermittent Calorie Restriction type of fasting." How's that?
This reminds me of ".....That depends on what your definition of *IS* is....."

Some of this is a mindset concept of the meaning of the word 'fast'. In the dictionary, the definition given is *to eat very little or nothing*.. so the true definition fits our JUDDD way of eating perfectly. Unless someone is eating quite a bit over their 20% calorie number, they will still be eating what most would consider to be very little. And even at the 40% and 45% *weight loss* percentages, which would be very unlikely to be considered much of a fast, they should still lose some weight and that's the principle focus for a lot of folks here, I expect. LOL

But never fear on how you refer to our Down Days. When they are done so that we are taking in very few calories during the span of those approx. 36 hours, it can legitimately be termed fasting, and the body should certainly be experiencing the benefits and effects of fasting on health.

I guess regardless of how we refer to what we do, if it's a way of managing our weight and health that is successful for us, it's a miracle for most of us! However anyone refers to it, I LOVE it.
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:34 AM   #22
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Hi Pat, I think you absolutely expressed JUDDD as Dr. J wrote it!

But we also should consider, knowing YMMV (with adrenals, dawn phenom, etc), that Dr. J is now of the opinion, in light of the latest studies involving restricted eating windows in conjunction with CRR (Circadian Rhythm Reset), that eating within an 8 hour window and sleeping by 11pm each night also contributes to health and weight loss.

He didn't mention this, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Dr. J. were to update JUDDD at some point in the future to include this. These are MY suppositions. Not anything that he said to suggest this.

But I agree, part of the beauty of JUDDD, is that it's a loose diet that allows flexibility and individual needs!!! Wooot!!!!!
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:45 AM   #23
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Hi Pat, I think you absolutely expressed JUDDD as Dr. J wrote it!

But we also should consider, knowing YMMV (with adrenals, dawn phenom, etc), that Dr. J is now of the opinion, in light of the latest studies involving restricted eating windows in conjunction with CRR (Circadian Rhythm Reset), that eating within an 8 hour window and sleeping by 11pm each night also contributes to health and weight loss.

He didn't mention this, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Dr. J. were to update JUDDD at some point in the future to include this. These are MY suppositions. Not anything that he said to suggest this.

But I agree, part of the beauty of JUDDD, is that it's a loose diet that allows flexibility and individual needs!!! Wooot!!!!!
I so completely agree with this! I think if we just imagine what it would be like if we were wild humans before our advancements.. what would we do when it got dark? We don't have the kinds of eyes that see well in darkness, so we'd all band together in a sheltered place and go to sleep.

We'd eat as we were able during the course of the daylight hours, but I'll bet there was little waking up in the middle of the night and deciding to eat the last of the lizard left charred at the edge of the fire pit. LOL
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:03 AM   #24
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But we also should consider, knowing YMMV (with adrenals, dawn phenom, etc), that Dr. J is now of the opinion, in light of the latest studies involving restricted eating windows in conjunction with CRR (Circadian Rhythm Reset), that eating within an 8 hour window and sleeping by 11pm each night also contributes to health and weight loss.
I guess if you don't count the "soy slender" chocolate soy milk I add to my coffee, I eat my down day calories within an 8 hour window ... but I do NOT get to sleep by 11 each night, even though I have to get up at 6:30, so I should work on that.
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:14 AM   #25
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I so completely agree with this! I think if we just imagine what it would be like if we were wild humans before our advancements.. what would we do when it got dark? We don't have the kinds of eyes that see well in darkness, so we'd all band together in a sheltered place and go to sleep.

We'd eat as we were able during the course of the daylight hours, but I'll bet there was little waking up in the middle of the night and deciding to eat the last of the lizard left charred at the edge of the fire pit. LOL
I agree... but my sleepwalking/eating issue makes me think that I would be the one wandering in the dark munching on burnt lizards...
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:14 AM   #26
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I guess if you don't count the "soy slender" chocolate soy milk I add to my coffee, I eat my down day calories within an 8 hour window ... but I do NOT get to sleep by 11 each night, even though I have to get up at 6:30, so I should work on that.
If you can work yourself towards that, I believe you will benefit from it. Studies are showing, or at least beginning to indicate that.. getting 'enough' sleep is not just healthful but is beneficial toward weight loss if we carry excess.

Obviously we jump on any tiny little hint that even a single study might seem to show, about anything, when we are fighting to lose weight, but there are quite a few studies on this subject that really do seem to show a definite help here. Sleeping during the right hours is supposed to be a stronger benefit to us, and I'm a believer for myself. LOL 'Course, I like a little nap during the day too...
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:23 AM   #27
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I lose better for sure, the better I sleep- not even because of not sleep eating. My body is just more willing to release its fat when I sleep well.

I'm also much more pleasant to be around/ ---->
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:41 AM   #28
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Interesting stuff on the difference between CR and full fasting. I also wonder if you save it all up for what is quite a generous meal of 500 cals you break the fast more than having two smaller meals.

As for my progress. That's slow at the moment due to having a lot of social eating to do in the last month. So I do what I can. It's easy to skip breakfast so I did that and held off lunch until as late as was practicable. Sometimes this has been 12.30, sometimes 2.30pm. I've only been able to stick to the full 500 cals restriction for a few days. Having my mum to stay and a hungry son living at home at the moment it's hard to eat so frugally.

Having done this though I now find it natural to save eating to a window of between 7 and 5 hours. I always sleep like a log. It's a talent.

We really are on the fore front of IF here. It's really fascinating. If you look around the paleo sites there is a lot of interest in this woe now.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:12 AM   #29
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Stargazer,
I am enthused as well! I noticed the Paleo/Primal folks are picking this up. At first, it was not well accepted, but some are IF'ing successfully, and blogging and adding their results. Interesting to read all of the Paleo who do HIIT while fasted and how that is building muscle & toning.

So cool.
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