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Old 08-11-2012, 09:11 AM   #31
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I will check out that site, thanks.

I think it's really true that men & women react differently to diets/fitness programs...not just the calories, but in mysterious hormonal ways.

For example, it seems to me (just from forums like this & comments on paleo blogs) that women suffer more bad moods & depression on low carb than men.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:56 AM   #32
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Wow, Tina, I love that site!!! Spent a LOT of time there yesterday, and posted my BG/fasting results from the other day.

Paleo For Women | Shattering the Myth of Fasting for Women: A Review of Female-Specific Responses to Fasting in the Literature

I guess DDs aren't (or don't have to be) "true" fasting, so JUDDD won't necessarily be as harmful for women as ADF or other forms of IF.
But this could explain why skipping breakfast (on UDs or DDs) affects some people badly. Or why not eating enough of your UD calories will cause weight gain. Or why some of us don't lose well on JUDDD, or almost *any* eating plan; even if we're getting enough calories & nutrition & exercise, our cortisol & other hormones are all whacked.

I liked this guy's comment:
Quote:
Adrenals matter too. IF, and Bulletproof IF*, both rely on catecholamines to melt fat. If you are psychologically stressed or have adrenal stress, you need to fix that before you try any fasting protocol. Higher fat intake combined with more salt can do wonders for that. There is a reason that women crave fatty and salty foods – adrenal exhaustion. Eating them is a good idea. --Dave Asprey
I had to look up catecholamines; they're epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine, and produced by the adrenal glands. Okay, I already know that lack of these causes depression. But--also that you can't burn fat?!!! Sunnuva.....

*"Bulletproof IF" refers to having coffee with butter & MCT oil for breakfast (no other food).
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:48 PM   #33
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Thanks for the info PJ. I'd come to the conclusion that I do much better when I eat breakfast (thanks to my doc telling me too. LOL).

When I was fasting till lunch on DD's, my cravings for salty foods went through the roof, and I was having lots of low blood pressure issues (when I checked with the doc, he said both were def signs of adrenal stress). He put me back on licorice root (that we had dropped because my adrenals were doing better--before I started the fasting--and those symptoms were resolving. Then I ran out, bought a different brand of licorice root, and started noticing the low bp and salt cravings again. Got back on the recommended brand, and better again.

So for me, I will not be truly fasting as in going with zero cals for hours at a time, and I will not try to do any lower than 500 cals on a dd either. I'm keeping between 650-700 and it's going well for me.

But I'm also in maintenance and fine if I don't lose any more ever.

I think a cortisol test might be helpful for you if you can swing it.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:04 PM   #34
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What do you take the licorice for (I'm assuming adrenals), and what is the brand you prefer? Also, do you take it at certain times of day, with/without food?

Ugh, I read in more than one place that it can take 8 or more months to "heal" the adrenal glands. Looks like a commitment!

I'm pretty sure it's a problem for me, even without doing the test (because of insomnia & other symptoms, plus I have been very stressed the last couple years--lost job, dad died, trees fell on my house, couldn't afford to heat the house this winter, car accident, house is in foreclosure), and the things to support the adrenals seem very sensible for my diabetes & overall health, too. However, it would be nice to have a baseline and something to compare to 6 months or so, to see if anything's improved.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:21 PM   #35
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Jenny -- BIG HUGS!

I am right there with you, on the stress -- my life looks really similar to yours right now (so many stressors in the past 4 years I can't even list them -- the most pressing, current one being a forced bankruptcy due to being sued by a creditor, after the financial disaster that followed losing my job 4 years ago.... no car because mine was impounded, I have a disabled partner, copious academic stresses, my best friend/roommate attempted suicide , and the list goes on and on and on...)

I know that these stresses, combined with severe caloric restriction/lack of sleep/pushing my body way beyond exhaustion, have exhausted my adrenals -- I think I more or less fried my entire endocrine system!

I'm going to be seeing my old doctor (my mom offered to pay for it, bless her heart!) -- that should help a lot in terms of getting me a good diagnostic, as well as a treatment plan.

I think endocrine issues probably are at the heart of a lot of our weight struggles -- and often the more measures we take to try to control our weight, the worse the situation becomes, due to us stressing the adrenals (and all the connected systems) even more by restricting calories, thus forcing the adrenals to work harder when they are already exhausted, etc.

I'm glad this thread exists -- looks like a good thing for some of us to be discussing right now!
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:47 PM   #36
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Good luck, honey!!!
Sorry for all the bad stuff.

I'm still without a job and fear we could get an eviction notice any day; whenever I hear a car door slam in my neighborhood, I'm afraid it's the police (there are only 2 other occupied houses on my street, so luckily this doesn't happen too many times per day)! And omg, my heart totally FREAKS OUT when I hear unexpected foot steps on my porch! I keep telling my son's friends: call or text first!!! PLEASE!!!

I bought some colostrum & started taking it a couple days ago, because it's supposed to be an amazing superfood & good for the immune system (diabetes=stressed immune system). I have had a weird ear condition (pain, congestion, feels like water sloshing around, sometimes turns into a sinus infection) for years & years...I hope this finally clears it up. And turns me into Wonder Woman, while it's at it...why not!

I am eagerly awaiting the delivery of some phosphatidylserine I ordered. I remember reading about it a while ago, and desperately wanting some; I guess I couldn't afford it at the time. It helps block cortisol, so I plan to take it later in the day.

I also have bipolar disorder, and it is a common symptom for cortisol & melatonin production to be reversed. The medication I take has been effective in preventing depressive & manic episodes, but I doubt it addresses the cortisol issue! In fact, my doctor told me a couple months ago that it is a stimulant and I shouldn't be taking it at night!!! For a long time, I was taking both pills in the am, but the label recently changed to say "recommend 2 hours apart", so I started doing that. My liver enzymes improved for the first time in 5 years; I thought it might be because of dividing the dose, although I suppose it could be from JUDDD/Fast 5 or metformin & better control of my diabetes. Anyway, I'm hesitant to take both pills at the same time but afraid it's interfering with my sleep. Just trying to take it earlier in the afternoon instead of 8pm or later, as I was doing.

minimonkey, I'm glad you find this thread relevant and I hope to see you here often!

Last edited by piratejenny; 08-12-2012 at 02:53 PM.. Reason: add sentence, correct grammar
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:12 PM   #37
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Oops, I meant "recommend 8 hours apart".
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:52 PM   #38
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:13 PM   #39
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Ya'll remember sunshine, too, as a help for respiratory, sinus, mood.

I, too, will probably continue small meals through the day, although I won't be scheduling rigidly.

However, my husband watched (at my insistence) the BBC Horizon Eat, Fast and Live Longer video on youtube last evening. He was extremely impressed, both with the program and with Alternate Day, which the host decided on, but just intuitively knew he wanted to wait to have his first meal later in the day. I think it is possible that IS a better option for men - who knows. He did very well with it today, waiting until 3 to eat, and thinks he could make this a habit, getting on my day-schedule with me.

Btw, everybody please watch that special BBC program. Much less than an hour on youtube with no commercials. Best use of your time EVER.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:40 PM   #40
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PJ and mimimonkey, (((hugs)))) on the stressors the past few years. I'd say you both sound like candidates for adrenal exhaustion for sure.

My past 4-5 yrs have been similar. Just hit after hit after hit. Financial, physical, emotional, spiritual...it takes a toll.

PJ, testing is a good idea for the baseline as you say, but also so you can know if you are over-stimulating. We tested in Jan and found that we had gone too far the other way, so needed to back off the supps a bit.

Yes, the licorice root is for the adrenals. At first I was taking 2 with breakfast, 2 with lunch, but have backed that off to 2 and 1. At first, I was taking pregnenalone as well (a precursor to cortisol to give the adrenals the raw materials to work with since mine were so far gone). I would NOT recommend that without the advice of a doctor. My dh is not as severe as I was and is not taking that. The licorice root brand is Nature's Sunshine. Again, a side effect of licorice is to raise blood pressure, so if you have ANY issues there, be careful.

Self-diagnosing and treating the endocrine system is so hard because it is so interconnected, and symptoms can be similar from one system to the next (like thyroid and adrenal).
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:46 PM   #41
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Hey Jen & Tina,

If I am reading the site that you linked correctly, it is saying that women who suffer with addrenal issues should not fast period??? Or at least wait until they correct this before fasting.

That makes me wonder if that is what happened to the poor girl who did JUDDD faithfully for 8 months and did not lose? In fact, if I remember right she may have gained? I am going to send the doctor an email and see what he thinks. This means that I should probably have my cortisol tested as well.

I really enjoy JUDDDing, but if my addrenals are suffering, I should possibly get this properly attended to.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:50 PM   #42
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Also, to Jen & Mini,

I can't imagine trying to take control of your weight or health while going through the stress that you both are under. I have a heck of a lot of stress, but it is mostly my job and quite frankly, I am nothing compared to both of you.

I wish I knew the answers for you two.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:02 PM   #43
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Tina, thank you for all the wonderful info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post

If I am reading the site that you linked correctly, it is saying that women who suffer with addrenal issues should not fast period??? Or at least wait until they correct this before fasting.

That makes me wonder if that is what happened to the poor girl who did JUDDD faithfully for 8 months and did not lose? In fact, if I remember right she may have gained?

I really enjoy JUDDDing, but if my addrenals are suffering, I should possibly get this properly attended to.
Yes, that's what they're saying...or at least that most of the studies have been done with men, so the effects on women may be more complicated.

I totally feel that girl's pain. I've lost less than 20lbs since October.

I think it may still be possible to JUDDD, but the high-protein breakfast is crucial. I even read that on a Chinese medicine site today!

Well, I'm trying to get to sleep early. Good night, ladies!
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:37 AM   #44
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I am still having serious sleep issues. It's not just on DD. I have quit taking all my Rx to try to go back to basics and figure it out. Next will go the melatonin. I already quit the cortisol in the morning. I have to take care of this or I'll go nuts with no sleep! Maybe 2 hours a night right now. NOT.GOOD. My days and nights are screwed up, I actually wake up late at night after being foggy all day. I don't remember it being this bad for quite awhile. I hope it's not JUDDD because I sure enjoy the weight control aspect at this point, and wondering still if it's going to help the arthritis.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:12 AM   #45
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Ugh, that was a fail. I fell asleep around 11:15-11:30pm but woke up at 3:30am. Finally getting a bit sleepy again but have to get up in an hour. :/
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:42 AM   #46
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Marie & Jenn,

I believe that maybe both of you should have your addrenals checked and possibly anyone else who is having sleep issues. I don't know if my addrenals corrected itself, but I never have sleep issues. I am wondering if you should cease the fasting until this is figured out?

The more that I read the website that you linked Jenn, I am convinced you have something going on and possibly Marie. It makes me wonder if you should be taking the pterostilbene as well? I mean it is supposedly an "IF Mimicer". So, I am beginning to see the connection in your lack of sleep. What do you both think?

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Old 08-13-2012, 05:49 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
It makes me wonder if you should be taking the pterostilbene as well? I mean it is supposedly an "IF Mimicer". So, I am beginning to see the connection in your lack of sleep. What do you both think?
I *am* taking the psb...I started that thread, remember?

However, if it is an IF mimetic,
and IFing isn't good for people with adrenal imbalances,
then maybe psb isn't good either?
Maybe that's why some people are having different reactions.

I'll have to look up the mechanisms by which psb mimics IF.

I really haven't found it helpful, so far. It made me hungry a few times, so I'm taking it before bed only...also because it's supposed to lower blood sugar, and mine goes up overnight.

------------------
Even if my adrenals aren't "stressed" or "fatigued", my cortisol production seems to be "reversed" because of my bipolar disorder.

So I've gotta do something about it!!! I have! to! sleep!

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Old 08-13-2012, 06:30 AM   #48
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I worded that incorrectly. I meant that maybe you shouldn't take Pterostilbene? Don't get me wrong, I think it could be helpful for many things, but if your having cortisol balancing issues, this may not be right?

One other thing, if your addrenals are stressed according to the website that Dr. Michael Lam has, the differences are...

Adrenal Fatigue versus Hypothyroidism

By: Michael Lam, MD, MPH

Darn, *It will not let me paste the table here, so if you go search for his site you can find the list.*


70% of people taking thyroid replacement medications continue to complain of symptoms. It is not unusual to have concurrent presenting symptoms of both low adrenal and low thyroid functions. Conventional medicine tends to miss this due to ignorance on adrenal fatigue. Those who were diagnosed as hypothyroid after a traumatic and stressful event such as pregnancy, accident, infection or an emotional trauma such as divorce or death of a loved one should be especially on the alert if thyroid replacement alone is not helping.

Those who have poor body temperature regulation are more prone to have mixed presentation. This group of people may present a steady low body temperature from low 90's to a little below 98.6F. They may also present a slight exaggerated response in body temperature as compared to the environmental temperature as characterized by a sensation of feeling hot when it is warm and cold when it is cool outside

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Old 08-13-2012, 06:33 AM   #49
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PJ, I think she was saying maybe you SHOULDN'T be taking it because of the IF connection.

My sleep has gotten really bad the past week. I'm trying to remember if it started before I ran out of one of my adrenal supps or if it coincided. Need to call the doc and get that reordered this morning.

And I've only been getting about 15g protein in my breakfast with my SW protein powder, so this morning I drank my smoothie and then ate 2 sausages. 24 g protein total. I've actually been trying to limit cured meats, so not sure I want to go back to sausage or bacon every morning. Will have to think on some non-dairy/non-egg protein sources to help bump up that total.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:40 AM   #50
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Oh, I see...yes, I agree.
Sorry, I am a bit grumpy on only 4 hours sleep!!!
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:02 AM   #51
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Tina, if you like a low-calorie breakfast, I find dessicated liver pills to be a good way to up protein.
Also to get some amino acids & vitamins that aren't always in my normal diet.

I'm with you on the non-cured meats thing, esp. for breakfast.
I sometimes eat Italian sausage, which is not cured.
Or I just have pork chops, chicken salad, stewed beef...whatever!
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:17 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
I worded that incorrectly. I meant that maybe you shouldn't take Pterostilbene? Don't get me wrong, I think it could be helpful for many things, but if your having cortisol balancing issues, this may not be right?

One other thing, if your addrenals are stressed according to the website that Dr. Michael Lam has, the differences are...

Adrenal Fatigue versus Hypothyroidism

By: Michael Lam, MD, MPH

Darn, *It will not let me paste the table here, so if you go search for his site you can find the list.*


70% of people taking thyroid replacement medications continue to complain of symptoms. It is not unusual to have concurrent presenting symptoms of both low adrenal and low thyroid functions. Conventional medicine tends to miss this due to ignorance on adrenal fatigue. Those who were diagnosed as hypothyroid after a traumatic and stressful event such as pregnancy, accident, infection or an emotional trauma such as divorce or death of a loved one should be especially on the alert if thyroid replacement alone is not helping.

Those who have poor body temperature regulation are more prone to have mixed presentation. This group of people may present a steady low body temperature from low 90's to a little below 98.6F. They may also present a slight exaggerated response in body temperature as compared to the environmental temperature as characterized by a sensation of feeling hot when it is warm and cold when it is cool outside
This is very interesting to me, as I'm nearly certain my thyroid disease presented after I had my daughter, and just wasn't caught until it was so bad I was barely functioning. I also get very cold when others are fine, and very hot if I'm out and about during the heat of the day (though it does get to 110 and hotter here in the summer). My body temperature, when diagnosed hypothyroid was in the 95.3-95.8 degree range, and has come up to around 98.0 regularly, so still a bit low. This is why I get surprised when I get really overheated.

Very interesting information and discussion here.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:34 AM   #53
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Dawn, I am thinking about downloading Dr. Lam's book. The table made a lot of sense.

I searched this morning and found this youtube and it helps explain a whole lot. Hope this will help PJ and others.

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Old 08-13-2012, 08:47 AM   #54
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Dr. Lam stresses turning the pc off at night and all electronic appliances, TVs, iphone, etc. He also says that supplementing with too many supplements and the wrong kind can be an issue as well. I think it is very interesting that he suggests an "addrenal breathing technique" before bedtime. He also stresses 3 meals per day and protein for breakfast.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:10 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by C'Marie View Post
I am still having serious sleep issues. It's not just on DD. I have quit taking all my Rx to try to go back to basics and figure it out. Next will go the melatonin. I already quit the cortisol in the morning. I have to take care of this or I'll go nuts with no sleep! Maybe 2 hours a night right now. NOT.GOOD. My days and nights are screwed up, I actually wake up late at night after being foggy all day. I don't remember it being this bad for quite awhile. I hope it's not JUDDD because I sure enjoy the weight control aspect at this point, and wondering still if it's going to help the arthritis.
Marie i do not know abou any interactions with your meds but Ken has been taking an OTC med called SLEEP and boy has it let him rest these past 3 nights maybe it would help? look into it and maybe try it once if you think the ingrdients won't bother any of your other meds? no sleep can drive anyone batty! i got it at wally world
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:44 AM   #56
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Thanks, all. I did get about 5-6 hours last night, much better than 2 or 4! I am not going to take the cortisol supplement for a few days because my memory tells me that I have to be *off* it and any other "hormonal" things like progesterone cream and melatonin for several days before getting my blood test. I will try to be free of all that for this week and maybe test next. That is if I can stand it. I won't try anything new for the time being either, and just do the regular supplements of vitamins and minerals except I know D3 is kinda considered a hormone but I don't want to stop that. I am getting my new arthritis homeopathic remedy so I will start that, maybe it'll help relax stuff so I can sleep better.

I am going to continue JUDDD but I will eat breakfast on DD and try to eat more frequently throughout the day on my DD. I had an egg this morning. I am on maintenance calories so I should be ok with that as well. So I won't be "fasting" long hours without any food, just very light.

Last edited by C'Marie; 08-13-2012 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:07 PM   #57
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Thanks for the link to Dr. Lam. I will spend some time checking that out.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:43 PM   #58
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Well, Dr. Lam is a bit difficult to understand, but he also has many more youtubes connected to the one that is posted. I have been listening today and I am impressed! I have also been scanning his website and found the below to be very interesting as I have seen many of you suggest that medication has the opposite effect as what it should have. For instance, my good friend says that "sleeping meds" sometimes actually keep her up. This is a very clear sign of addrenal exhaustion or failing addrenals.

This is something that pertains to many of us on here so, I thought I would copy...

7 Adrenal Fatigue Recovery Mistakes


4. Failure to recognize paradoxical and unusual reactions

A paradoxical reaction is when medical treatment, usually a drug, has the opposite effect to that which normally will be expected. An example of a paradoxical reaction is when a pain relief medication causes an increase in pain. Some sedatives prescribed for adults actually cause hyper-activeness in children. Experienced clinicians know this and are on high alert for these abnormalities.

Paradoxical reactions are generally more prevalent in natural compounds. The reason for this is not known. The more decompensated the body is, as in the case of advanced Adrenal Fatigue, the more frequent such paradoxical reactions will occur.

Nutrients that are suitable for one body are therefore not necessary good for another one. In fact, it can be toxic for another body. Nutrients can become toxic and paradoxical reactions can surface after a period of time of indigestion. This can range from weeks to months. The body may also reject these nutrients immediately from the onset. Instead of feeling better with energy boost, one may feel worse in what is known as a paradoxical reaction. Severe fatigue may be precipitated, setting off an adrenal crash.

Common paradoxical reactions and abnormal reactions include:
•A sense of fatigue or malaise or a state of anxiety instead of a sense of calm when taking steroids.
•Sudden onset of anxiety attacks and impending doom at rest.
•Sudden onset of heart palpitations despite normal cardiac function.
•Sudden onset of dizziness and lightheadedness at rest.
•Sudden onset of fluctuating blood pressure.
•A sense of being "beaten up" that lasts for days after vigorous exercise.
•Inability to think clearly and difficulty recalling recent events.
•Waking up in the middle of the night for no reason and the inability to go back to sleep.
•Being constipated instead of having loose bowel when taking high doses of vitamin C or magnesium.
•A sense of feeling wired up and anxious after taking certain vitamins, adrenal glandulars or herbs.
•Feeling more toxic instead of feeling better when going through a detoxification program like juice fasting, acupuncture or massages.
•Sudden onset of fragile emotional states such as crying for no apparent reason.
•Taking multiple trips to the Emergency Room because one feels impending doom even though nothing is wrong after repeated work-up.
•A sense of well-being after taking selected nutrients, only to be followed by a "crash".

One can have any combination of the above. Collectively, they point to an adrenal that has lost its ability to maintain the fine control characteristics of a stable internal homeostasis environment. It is like taking a shower with either very hot or very cold water but not the comfortable warm water. The exact etiology of many of these paradoxical and unusual reactions is not known. Scientists suspect a variety of factors may be in play, including defective receptor sites, dysfunctional transport messenger system, improper clearance of metabolites and reactive adrenaline responses of a dysfunctional autonomic nervous system. Self-directed recovery programs following the standard textbook approach normally fail in such cases because normal healing tools and rules do not apply and in fact may make the body worse off.

As stated earlier, the more advanced the Adrenal Fatigue, the more paradoxical and unusual reactions tend to surface. In addition, there can be concurrent paradoxical as well as overreaction that occur close to each other in time. One may feel worse for a few days or weeks, followed by a short burst of well-being, only to relapse back into a fatigue state without doing anything significantly different. The body goes into a phase of homeostatic instability characterized by wild swings in emotional and physical states. This is the worst of both worlds, as the body is caught in a vicious cycle of cascading downward state of functions with its own violent attempt to rebalance itself. Eventually, this leads to severe incapacitation of daily functions Symptoms can include severe fatigue, bed bound most of the time, fragile blood pressure, reactive hypoglycemia, unexplained palpitation, severe anxiety attack, profound dizziness, extreme brain fog, frequent infection and severe insomnia, just to mention a few. This experience is akin to a state of the "living dead". The clinical picture becomes extremely convoluted and confusing to all but the most astute and experienced clinician.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:46 PM   #59
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On the Women to Women forum they propose the supps for Addrenal Balance.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:30 PM   #60
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Thanks Jen, I forgot to do this! The Women to Women forum has an amazing wealth of info on adrenals, hormone therapy and thyroid. I check it out pretty regularly.
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