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Old 10-30-2012, 04:01 AM   #121
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:33 AM   #122
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A question for folks on this thread:
I've been reading Phinney's work (The art and science of low carbohydrate living) Fantastic. Some of the best science on the LC front.

The other night I heard Jimmy Moore ask Phinney about IF. Phinney responded that, although it did some good, it seemed like a "blunt tool.". He talked about losing muscle mass with IF lasting a full day. They didn't go further into it.

It fascinated me for this reason: when I first lost weight with Juddd, I still looked like an athlete. Great muscle definition. Now, as I hover up and down during maintenance, I am looking and feeling pudgier at the same weight. I suspect I've lost some muscle mass, and not through any decrease in exercise.

Phinney also mentions macronutrients needs being very different toward maintenance, when the body hasn't got the same fat stores to consume. He suggests that high carbs are no good ever, and that high protein works while losing but is no good as we close in on maintenance, at which point high fat becomes more important.

Anyway, I'd shifted to higher fat already for the sake of satisfaction and because of skin and hair changes I'd noticed as I'd lowered fat while JUDDDing.

Ridiculously long post! I just wanted to toss this out here and find out whether the scientifically minded here have any thoughts on this.

Thanks to all of you (particularly Sunday for the Phinney recommendation) for all of the evidence discussed here.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:28 AM   #123
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Kristin, thanks for posting this. I need to get Phinney's book and read it, because I am strange and love to understand all the why's. Somehow, it's motivating to me. I'll also see if I can find Jimmy Moore's podcast you're referring to.

I think the science of IF is growing, but is definitely so new that we may not know how it affects us over time for awhile yet. We're all human guinea pigs on this one, in our own one-person experiment. I've always thought that we're all so different in how our bodies work. When doing VLC, I did fantastic, but had friends and family who felt really sick and didn't lose like I did.

I'd love to hear more about this, and hope some others will comment as well.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:38 AM   #124
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Lcg, I hear what you're saying about guinea pigs!
I'm amazed when I hear juddders talk about thriving on higher carbs. I'm envious. I still hold thoughts of my metabolism "healing" in the direction of carb consumption, but it hasn't happened yet.
I love that this board provides a place for a huge variety of experience and wisdom. I know how helpful it's been for me to hear of someone's experience mirroring my own.
Looking forward to more on this.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:38 PM   #125
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Kristin! Thank you!!! I was just reading the same info that you are sharing last night and got so involved in the science and data on "Women & IF" in particular, that I wanted to wait until I have more to post before sharing with everyone.

One thing that I have noticed reading everyone's posts on JUDDD for the last 8 months, is that some women struggle quite a bit more than others and especially even when doing JUDDD as written by the book. I am one, myself. It has been painfully slow and sometimes almost as if my body is resisting with every step of the way. I have lost and gained back several times while JUDDDing and even thought seriously about switching to another plan. That is when I ran across the High Fat, Mod protein, info and Phinney's book.

I recall Yam-Yam, Vanilla, and our dear friend, PJ, all struggling at some point in our JUDDD journey. The agony and discouragement that comes when you lose your WL rhythm or flow while at the same time, it seems to be effortless for most others.
So, last evening I began reading Phinney's book, plus a few other google searches led me to a brilliant and very informative post on PaleoWomen on why this is so and I will go look and see if I can post it on here. Or if you want to google, "paleo for women, shattering the myth of fasting for women". Pay particular attention to the comments below this article.

By jove, I think Kristin & I may have stumbled onto something.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:07 PM   #126
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One more thought, the above article has much scientific evidence about men not having the same struggles that women do with IF. In other words, they will excel most every time, while women hit the "blowout" so to speak, on IF.

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Old 11-10-2012, 09:57 AM   #127
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Sunday, fascinating reading. We really are test subjects!
I'll also add, again, that Phinney suspects only half of us have significant problems with carbs.
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:36 AM   #128
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Interesting info Kristen. Thanks for sharing. I have not been formally exercising in a gym for quite some time due to my travels. Did some bike riding and lots of walking plus occasional swimming.

But, for me, weight training is really important for muscle tone and slimming.

My body seems to have reached a new set point at between 187-192. The scale bounces around in that range. I'm a bit above it after 6 weeks of mostly vacation. However, even at 187 I'm not feeling as slim as I did at 197. What's up with that? It could be totally about the exercise when at home and lack of while out of town. Or, it could be the lack of calorie counting and eating a lot more carbs while traveling around.

Whatever it is, I need to find my way again and get the losses kick-started somehow.
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:06 AM   #129
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Welcome back YamYam. We missed you.

I just finished all of the posts on the intermittent fasting for females. Very interesting. If you are of child bearing age, I would advise you to read it.

We all know JUDDD works and I am wondering if the caloric differences make this a bit different from true IF. I think a lot of them were using eating windows everyday.

I think the mini meals throughout the day might be a safer way to go long term. Maybe the system won't think it is under stress so much. Anyhow, I found it all quite interesting. Thanks for sharing, Sunday.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:56 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
Sunday, fascinating reading. We really are test subjects!
I'll also add, again, that Phinney suspects only half of us have significant problems with carbs.
Yeppers, and I am one that most definitely has this carb problem.
I tried to keep the carbs in my JUDDD plan originally and kept stalling. This was when I was 30 lbs heavier and so it was maddening. I have noticed a mega difference since lowering my protein and upping my fat with cravings and appetite suppression. I don't have hunger pangs now and I do worry somewhat that I need to have hunger pangs at times.

From Mark Sisson's June 19 blog on IF & women...

So who should and shouldn’t consider fasting? Have my recommendations changed?

If you haven’t satisfied the usual IF “pre-reqs,” like being fat-adapted, getting good and sufficient sleep, minimizing or mitigating stress, and exercising well (not too much and not too little), you should not fast. The pre-reqs are absolutely crucial and non-negotiable, in my opinion, especially the fat-adaptation. In fact, I suspect that if an IF study was performed on sugar-burning women versus fat-adapted women, you’d see that the fat-burning beasts would perform better and suffer fewer (if any) maladaptations.

I would also caution against the already lean, already calorie-restricted woman jumping headfirst into IF. I mean, fasting is ultimately sending a message of scarcity to your body. That’s a powerful message that can get a powerful response from our bodies. If you’re already lean (which, depending on the degree of leanness, arguably sends a message of scarcity) and restricting calories (which definitely sends a message of scarcity), the response to fasting can be a little too powerful.

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Old 11-11-2012, 10:02 AM   #131
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Welcome back YamYam. We missed you.

I just finished all of the posts on the intermittent fasting for females. Very interesting. If you are of child bearing age, I would advise you to read it.

We all know JUDDD works and I am wondering if the caloric differences make this a bit different from true IF. I think a lot of them were using eating windows everyday.

I think the mini meals throughout the day might be a safer way to go long term. Maybe the system won't think it is under stress so much. Anyhow, I found it all quite interesting. Thanks for sharing, Sunday.

Yes, I know for me personally, I JUDDD better with a 10 hour eating window daily. And breakfast isn't absolute, but fat in my coffee or tea is.

Also, from reading Mark Sisson's blog on "Women & IF" if you feel that your body is trying to tell you something, "LISTEN". He truly believes IF'ing shouldn't be a struggle. And also if women are pre or peri-meno, they may not have the weight loss benefits with IF that comes so effortlessly for others.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:16 AM   #132
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Sunday can you tell me about the "fat in my coffee"? What do you use? Butter, coconut oil? A tablespoon? Thanks!!!
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:38 AM   #133
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Hi Blonde! I use 1tbs Kerrygold butter plus 1 tbs of MCT oil. I don't count the mct oil so for one coffee 100 cals. I am loving it.

NOW MCT Oil - Customer Reviews at Netrition.com

I save the EVCO for cooking. Also, if you have a minute go to Amazon & read the reviews for the above brand. Especially the first few, MCT oil is a blend of evco & palm and has some amazing health benefits.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:41 AM   #134
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Also, I found when I first began this ritual that I was a tad nauseous the first few times. I think it may be best to start w/ one tsp and work your way up to 1 tbsp

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Old 11-13-2012, 07:59 AM   #135
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I meant 8 hour eating span. First meal around 10 last around 6.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:58 PM   #136
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I sure hope none of us needs to know this but it looks like alternet day fasting may
make chemo a lot easier to take.


Fasting and cancer treatment in humans: A case series report - AGING Journal
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:43 AM   #137
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Thanks you E.W.! I have read many scientific studies on cancer and fasting. It is something to be aware of and your link explains why this works.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:52 AM   #138
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Sunday, thanks so much for the info! I'm going to give the "Bullet proof coffee" a try and see if that helps with hunger issues on down days. Sorry to be so pesky, I use Splenda in my coffee normally...do you sweeten or drink it black? Would HWC do the same thing? Thank you, in advance.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:44 AM   #139
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Hello Blonde!
If you are VLC or zero carbs then the hwc should be just the same effect, although, you will have 50 cals to count with the 100 cals of butter. I don't use Splenda, but I see others do and never seem to have probs. I am a stevia person when I sweeten anything, but I like the BPC unsweetened just fine.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:09 PM   #140
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I am peri-meno or even pre...not sure, but I'm not going to give up on JUDDD. It seems to be working better than LC did for me.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:28 AM   #141
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Yes, I know for me personally, I JUDDD better with a 10 hour eating window daily. And breakfast isn't absolute, but fat in my coffee or tea is.

Also, from reading Mark Sisson's blog on "Women & IF" if you feel that your body is trying to tell you something, "LISTEN". He truly believes IF'ing shouldn't be a struggle. And also if women are pre or peri-meno, they may not have the weight loss benefits with IF that comes so effortlessly for others.
I haven't had a period in two years and it seems to be getting so hard to lose weight. When I was JUDDD'ing religiously it took me about three months to lose 20lbs (which was great) and the rest of the year to lose another 20 (which I gained back over the course of several months). I've quit smoking (5 months) and the lbs do not want to budge, making it incredibly frustrating to starve every other day if you know what I mean? I've been reading about ketogenics and I'm seriously considering giving it a try since it is recommended for women who are having trouble losing with "plain" low carb eating. Like you Sunday and Joyjoy I have come to believe that I need to really get those carbs down in order to lose again. any thoughts?
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:11 AM   #142
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I firmly believe once a stall is established and all reasons for the stall have been explored, then a WOE change can be very productive.

Personally, I seem to need more veggie/fruit carbs than are strictly allowed with most of the LC programs. But, I have shaken my metabolism up several times by combining LC-style eating with JUDDD alternate day calories for a few weeks.
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:37 AM   #143
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Blonde, my experience with JUDDD makes me think that each of us is different and each of us changes over time. Whenever I find myself stalling significantly - physically or psychologically, I seem to benefit from a shift in WOE. (Granted, many people here don't seem to need these shifts at all!) Currently I love a combo of JUDDD cycling with a fairly LCHF thing.
It's funny. I hover around my goal weight, but I still feel "stalls" somehow, periods during which my body doesn't "hum" the way I like until I shift something. My guess is that it is teaching me to listen more closely and subtly to what it needs.
Good luck with your own experiments. I'd love to hear what you learn.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:42 AM   #144
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Thank you both for your thoughts regarding stalls. I'm going to try to DD again tomorrow. I've been giving JUDDD a rest for a few weeks and simply eating low carb to try and control my cravings. I got to the point where DD were awful. I've never done strict low carb with JUDDD, maybe I need to try that first.

I think I'm having a combination of issues that have kept me from losing, NOT smoking being the main culprit. One thing I'm positive about...cutting out wheat from my diet has made a huge difference in how I feel physically. That and cigarettes are the two things I will not be putting back into my program.

Thank again!
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:44 AM   #145
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Blonde! I have been away from the board for a bit, but would like to add a couple of thoughts. I have for the majority of my last 6 years (when my weight became an issue) been low carb but at much higher protein and low fat. I noticed right away when I moved to low carb, that my cravings were minimal. I lost weight pretty easily and got very close to goal. I went through meno-hell about 3 years ago and started packing on lbs again. Not much at first, but at this time, I began adding a bit more carbs (100 or less) which is still low but not VLC. I wish that I had tried JUDDD back then when I first became aware of it, but I really didn't realize how simple the plan was. I began JUDDD first of February and lost pretty easily, but I noticed immediately that I struggled on DD's when I indulged on UDs w/ bread/sugar or wine/alcohol. It isn't that I was stalling so much, I just had trouble with hunger. My epiphany at this time, was that I had great appetite suppression on the DD when I had been mod/low carb on prior UD.

So, for me, personally, I am choosing to stay low carb until I reach goal and if I can maintain easily without adding carbs, then I may just remain at this WOE, indulging only for special occasions.

Now, for the High Fat, Mod Protein 85/15/5 or NK. I am losing about the same ratio, but the best benefit is that now I really notice a BIG difference in appetite suppression with HF/MP. Some days, I don't hunger all day long!!! Even on UD! It is perfect for me right now during the holidays, because this is when I have lots of temptations (parties) and this is my traditional time of year to pack on 10 lbs or more! I haven't been on the NK boards lately, but from what I see, it is a few weeks to a month, before you start noticing good losses. If that is true, I hope to have a few whooshes next week! I will report back if this is true.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:50 AM   #146
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Also, I don't fret too much if I don't reach 85%, most of the time I would say that I am between 77-80%. I see many others saying the same and according to the Eades, this ratio is phenomenal!

I think a lot of folks, quit losing on LC because they are consuming much higher protein than needed thus causing stalls.
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:48 AM   #147
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Awesome Sunday, thank you!! You may be right on all counts. Hunger is a huge issue with me and makes it so difficult on DD. I do like my wine (pinot noir) but if that is causing me to slow or no loss of weight I will stop drinking it. So if I can just get the weight off, at least I know how to maintain, lol! I could live on salads and protein, pretty much. I guess I need to do more research on 85/15/5.

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Old 11-25-2012, 10:41 AM   #148
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I wouldn't rule wine out yet! I would do a trial week with no wine or maybe one day of wine.

Also, on fats, I love the butter/MCT coffee/tea for both days. That is a great way to start appetite suppression. I have made a couple of wonderful high fat dressings with EVOO and one is a homemade Ranch with full fat Greek Yogurt that is helping w/ upping fat. Another fav - EVOO + 1 tbs balsamic vinegar + 1 tbs dijon mustard + herbs.

I am focusing on Omega 3s. Salmon, Walnuts, Dark Leafy Greens, Spinach, Turkey, Flaxseed, Chia, Organic Omega 3 enriched eggs, etc. It is amazing how so little can help you feel so good.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:00 PM   #149
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I have become a bit engrossed in reading any and everything that points to health benefits with LC as well as IF. I am really trying to find out why I seem to have different results as to how my body responds to carbs and most importantly sugar. Quite a while back, someone shared the video "Sugar: The Bitter Truth" by Dr. Robert Lustig (Professor of Clinical Pediatrics, in the Division of Endocrinology Director of the Weight Assessment for Teen and Child Health). It is his belief that sugar & HFCS are really much more to blame than carbs to the childhood obesity epidemic here in the US.

One of the research studies that Dr. Lustig explores is that Childhood Obesity is becoming an epidemic in all of the countries who have adopted the American diet. The top 3 obese nations leading the way are America, The UK & Australia. However, every single nation that has followed in America's footsteps now are showing an increase in childhood obesity. Canada, Japan, China, India, Thailand, Korea, Phillippines, & South Africa are now seeing the epidemic of obesity in children. That is staggering to the mind!

So, why does this tragedy continue? If we as the leading nation have not been able to conquer and stop childhood obesity, how will we solve the growing epidemic? Childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years. In 2008, more than one third of children and adolescents were overweight or obese. I will not go on, because this would take all night, but as you can see by looking around in your neighborhood and public schools, we have a major problem with sugar/hfcs and its direct effect on our youth.

Last edited by sunday; 11-25-2012 at 10:02 PM..
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:35 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by sunday View Post
I have become a bit engrossed in reading any and everything that points to health benefits with LC as well as IF. I am really trying to find out why I seem to have different results as to how my body responds to carbs and most importantly sugar. Quite a while back, someone shared the video "Sugar: The Bitter Truth" by Dr. Robert Lustig (Professor of Clinical Pediatrics, in the Division of Endocrinology Director of the Weight Assessment for Teen and Child Health). It is his belief that sugar & HFCS are really much more to blame than carbs to the childhood obesity epidemic here in the US.

One of the research studies that Dr. Lustig explores is that Childhood Obesity is becoming an epidemic in all of the countries who have adopted the American diet. The top 3 obese nations leading the way are America, The UK & Australia. However, every single nation that has followed in America's footsteps now are showing an increase in childhood obesity. Canada, Japan, China, India, Thailand, Korea, Phillippines, & South Africa are now seeing the epidemic of obesity in children. That is staggering to the mind!

So, why does this tragedy continue? If we as the leading nation have not been able to conquer and stop childhood obesity, how will we solve the growing epidemic? Childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years. In 2008, more than one third of children and adolescents were overweight or obese. I will not go on, because this would take all night, but as you can see by looking around in your neighborhood and public schools, we have a major problem with sugar/hfcs and its direct effect on our youth.
I've watched Dr. Robert Lustig's lecture and I do think the research is starting to prove that sugar/hfcs is a major health concern. Gary Taubes, author of Why We Get Fat, is currently working on a new book about the dangers of sugar and I'm very interested in reading it once it comes out!
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