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Old 06-19-2012, 04:19 PM   #1
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Question for the EXPERTS!

I'm sitting here watching Dr Phil and he has on " the worlds fattest women". Really Guiness Book record holder. So I started thinking, if really low calories throw our bodies into starvation mode and make them hold on to fat for dear life. How do the people who have gastric bypass and eat only a few ounces of food a day lose so much weight? I mean they eat almost nothing and their bodies let go of enormous amounts of weight. I'm dying of curiosity. And PS I'm loving maintenance it feels to good to be true. I'm terrified my next weigh in will be a nightmareBut really I'm scared!
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:22 PM   #2
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The people I have known that had gastric bypass surgery ate very small quantities BUT ate constantly. I have yet to see one that eats almost nothing. I am also watching one daily that has had the surgery, lost the weight and is busily putting the weight back on with really poor food choices. Can we say fast food junkie.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:52 PM   #3
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With weight loss surgery, you are *forcing the issue*. This is not your body working naturally.

And here's something that seems awfully sad to me: I just looked up some of the daily calorie recommendations for patients of weight loss surgery and you know how much is suggested? About the same calories as is suggested for most other weight loss diets.

Well, for a few weeks immediately following the surgery a patient has a plan to follow, which is very low calorie, leading up to the time when they are healed and can eat most foods once again, in smaller portions, but guess about what their daily calories are suggested to be once they're healed...

Most recommendations I found were for about 1000 to 1400 daily calories. For those totals of 2000 to 2800 calories every two days, they could be doing JUDDD.

A physician classmate of mine who did these surgeries admitted that the surgery is only a way to force the issue of calorie restriction when the patient can't keep themselves restricted to their needed calories in any other way.

In other words, you don't really need the surgery... you can lose the same weight by just eating as though you had the surgery. You know when they say *Eat less. Lose the weight.*? This is a way to force that action into happening.

I wish they could try JUDDD for awhile instead and see if they could avoid this surgery from ever having to happen.

The only calorie difference is that on JUDDD we start out eating more for the size we are currently at, rather than starting out eating at the low calories we might be consuming when we are at goal. And with weight loss surgery, they eat at their goal weight calorie number. Hence their shocking weight loss for awhile.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:54 PM   #4
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Congrats on maintenance and can't wait to be there with you!

I am definitely not an expert! But, I have often wondered the exact same thing! These guys who are linked to the Eat Stop Eat plan by Brad Pilon theorize that you have to be very lean on fat in order to go into "starvation mode".

Starvation Mode – Why You Probably Never Need to Worry About It

And WW's claims that you do not go into starvation mode, but your metabolism will slow down and you will burn less efficiently, but you do not go into total shut down...

The Starvation Myth
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:42 PM   #5
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This helps explain what Brad Pilon believes about Starvation Mode. Pretty interesting.

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Old 06-19-2012, 05:54 PM   #6
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Yes adillenal my late BIL had the surgery and was quickly back up to 300 lbs or more. He just stretched out his stomach. I think that sadly the success rate for keeping the weight off is quite low. I still don't get why they can lose so much even in the beginning, isn't it still like starvation calories?
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:55 PM   #7
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I think the same question applies to, oh, anyone on a low calorie diet. Maybe people in concentration camps. They survive, those who do survive, on tiny amounts of food and water. A stall, with the body desperately conserving energy can only go on so long. Eventually that body does lose weight by burning fat then cannibalizing muscle and internal organs. It has to if it is going to keep the brain and heart and lungs alive.

I suspect if a person can get calories low enough, and really stick to those calories they will lose weight. Possibly at risk to their health. Most of us don't find that approach acceptable. And it is durn hard to do if you are eating the SAD and have a damaged carb mechanism.

But, if you come close to starving yourself consistently, you probably will lose weight.
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I did not "lose" weight. I evicted it. It is gone and it ain't coming back!

JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:56 PM   #8
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Sunday, those are interesting articles. I am going to have to think about them. But they do speak to an issue that has been - bothering is too strong a word - let's say floating around in my head.

The issue is the 24 to 36 hour window.

I don't know about you good people, but I am reasonably certain my ancestors sometimes took waaaay longer than 36 hours when they set out to catch a mammoth. What with battling snow storms, fording raging rivers, fighting sabre-toothed kitties - well - they may have spent weeks 'shopping' (and living on a series of grub and twig fueled DDs) before they obtained dinner.

Here we are, their descendants, stalling, losing NSVs, and running low on energy after a day or two.

Thanks good people. Now I have something new to think about instead of painting the living room. Something is going on here. JUDDD works for most of us. We know that, we prove that. Sirtuin enzymes rock.

SIR science is still, I suspect, in it's infancy. JUDDD is right, but future scientific and medical studies may establish that the reasons we cite today are close, but not quite on.

Fascinating.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:26 PM   #9
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I have a good friend that had the surgery. She had lost before on regular calorie restriction and kept good records. The weight came back eventually and she opted for the surgery. She lost much more, and faster on the same calories after surgery (she was pretty restricted right after surgery, but later).

I suppose it depends on the surgery. She had the kind that bypasses part of your digestive system. There are other kinds that just restrict the amount you can fit in your stomach. She takes a ton of supplements because just a fraction of them get absorbed. I guess it is the with her food.

It also could be the kinds of food she eats now. Her post op instructions were protein first, then veggies and if there was any room left, starches last. No sugar was recommended ever and she follows that.

It wasn't an easy way out like people think sometimes. She worked off every pound, but the surgery forced her to get started.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:42 PM   #10
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That's a good point about maybe it varies, depending on the type of surgery somebody chooses to have. I know they are really supposed to push the supplements because they have a hard time getting enough of some nutrition through their diet alone.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:38 PM   #11
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I asked my former boss who had this done and he said he would get so sick no matter what he ate, no metter how little at first that he barely ate anything so he lost a lot at first. I think he is maintaining his losses though. He was very dedicated to losing the weight although I never thought of him as very much overweight BUT I never actually saw him eat anything either even when we had long work days and night meetings. Outside of Diet Sprite I began to wonder if he ever ate anything.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:57 PM   #12
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From what I've heard, even with having the surgery, you still have to change your mindset about food and eating. Once you're all healed up, you can't be eating so much and stretching your stomach back out again.

It looks like Al Roker has kept his weight down pretty well. And it looks like Star Jones is getting fat again.

So it must be like any other way of losing weight, from just this one standpoint anyway... you can't go back to eating like you did before, or else you'll go back to weighing what you weighed before. (And usually more...)
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Congrats on maintenance and can't wait to be there with you!

I am definitely not an expert! But, I have often wondered the exact same thing! These guys who are linked to the Eat Stop Eat plan by Brad Pilon theorize that you have to be very lean on fat in order to go into "starvation mode".

Starvation Mode – Why You Probably Never Need to Worry About It

And WW's claims that you do not go into starvation mode, but your metabolism will slow down and you will burn less efficiently, but you do not go into total shut down...

The Starvation Myth
True, true. !! BFFM- Tom Venuto says exactly the same thing. Metabolism doesn't "just stop". It's impossible. His program does calorie cycling, 3 low days and 1 high day and so forth.
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:54 PM   #14
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Thanks Sunday, unfortunately I didn't get any sound. Carney Wilson is having the surgery for a second time ugh! If she gets fat again can she actually burst her stomach, I mean how much can it physically stretch? Nancy your example of prisoners in concentration camps was an excellent example as an answer to my question.Thanks all

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Old 06-19-2012, 11:08 PM   #15
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I also have a friend who had the surgery (a bypass type) and it totally changed her life. She had been overweight most of her life, and had tried everything --- low carbs, low calories, she worked out -- she also had diabetes that she couldn't control with diet (she honestly was diligent about that!) , and the type of bypass that she had has a good history of helping keep diabetes under control, which is why she made that decision.

Long story short, she's something like 150 lbs lighter now, her diabetes is completely reversed, her chronic back pain is history, and she is happily scampering to the gym and eating her same healthy meals -- only now, she has good health and a fit body to show for it. She did have a pretty major reconstructive surgery after, to remove the loose skin and a breast reduction/lift, which took off something like an additional 25 lbs!

I guess this sort of thing is wildly different from person to person. For someone like my friend, who had literally done everything right and still failed to lose weight, the surgery was a miracle.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:52 AM   #16
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I think the point that is missing that the "world's fattest people" for the most part do not eat a low calorie diet, they probably just think they do. I've discovered that most obese people have very little ability to judge just how much they are eating.

The funny part is I used to assume I ate lower calorie until I started counting diligently and now I'm aghast at how much I used to eat many years ago. My favorite fast food restaurant is called Taco Bueno and the other day I looked up one of their platters I used to eat and its nearly 2000 calories
I had no clue.

So probably what is really happening is they are "dieting" enough to completely drop their metabolisms to nothing and then binge eating, which in the presence of a low metabolism, will pack on fat faster than anything. Rinse, repeat for life. If they began to eat extremely low calorie and stay that way for extended periods of time, they would eventually starve like everyone else (how often do you see a fat African refugee etc?) but its the binging with the starvation that keeps them fat. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:59 AM   #17
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I thought when one had this surgery done that the doctor took out the fat I was told once that a human is much like a whole chicken - one that you buy in the grocery store; when you wash the chcken and see all the fat that is in it, one pulls out all they can before fixing the chicken. I thought the doctor did the same as when we clean a chicken! Silly me
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:37 PM   #18
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Elise thank you. You are very insightful.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewstate View Post
I think the point that is missing that the "world's fattest people" for the most part do not eat a low calorie diet, they probably just think they do. I've discovered that most obese people have very little ability to judge just how much they are eating.

The funny part is I used to assume I ate lower calorie until I started counting diligently and now I'm aghast at how much I used to eat many years ago. My favorite fast food restaurant is called Taco Bueno and the other day I looked up one of their platters I used to eat and its nearly 2000 calories
I had no clue.

So probably what is really happening is they are "dieting" enough to completely drop their metabolisms to nothing and then binge eating, which in the presence of a low metabolism, will pack on fat faster than anything. Rinse, repeat for life. If they began to eat extremely low calorie and stay that way for extended periods of time, they would eventually starve like everyone else (how often do you see a fat African refugee etc?) but its the binging with the starvation that keeps them fat. Just my 2 cents.
So true.
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