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Old 05-30-2012, 06:16 AM   #1
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Bodybuilders view. Not happy with me. :(

Ok, so today i caught up with a male friend I've known for 35 yrs, like a brother to me, for a long overdue coffee. He is a natural bodybuilder with an amazing physique and works hard for it.

So while asking me what I've been up to, I mentioned Juddd and shared the book with him. He skimmed the pages and told me he'd heard of it but not seen the book. ....................and then the lecture started. And it went something like this.....

"you should know what this is, you have trained for figure competitions, you are a PT. Its another very low calorie diet/eating plan in disguise. Up day plus down day = xxxx. Divide by 2= xxxx For you, thats only 895 calories a day. Why dont you just eat 895 everyday, Im sure you will lose weight, no doubt you will, i will bet money on it, because you have created a massive deficit. Same thing happened when you seperated from husband, you didnt eat because of stress, and you lost weight too. Actually you were exactly where you are trying to get to now. And what happened when you started eating normally, you body grabbed it all, and now its 9kg heavier. Are you kidding me ? You fell for this ? Create a calorie deficit. OMG, Its not rocket science. Under eating BMR calories = muscle wastage, fat storage. Simple, and you know it "

Well, my jaw was on the ground Didnt really know what to say.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:25 AM   #2
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Well, I am sure he cares for you but he is no diplomat.

Let me see, where to start. I am not as good with words as Pat (So Happy).

First of all I believe in the healing power of JUDDD. The difference in the rotations triggers the SIRT which helps our bodies and our metabolisms to heal.

I am in Maintenance and many, though not all, of us who are find that now that we have healed our metabolisms after years of eating LC or Low Fat or extremely Low Cal, we can eat way more on our UDs. We are therefore are eating more calories over all, without gaining, than we could have ever imagined.

I am sure other JUDDD BUDDDs will answer you more clearly.

But rest assured, this is not just another VLCal diet.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:27 AM   #3
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Wow! You didn't deserve that! Probably best you didn't argue with him because folks who judge the lifestyle/eating plans of others don't listen anyway!
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:38 AM   #4
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If he took some time and read the research, he would see that there's no muscle wasting with JUDDD. As a matter of fact, many bodybuilders use different forms of IF (JUDDD is one) to get that "cut" look without losing muscle. He's obviously very well informed for his purposes, but not well-informed about this WOE. He'll either do some research, or he won't, and it shouldn't affect you in the least.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:40 AM   #5
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People always seem to have a lot of opinions about food! (I usually just nod and listen politely.)

I've read that these types of intermittent fasting plans (like LC) actually promote losing fat and retaining muscle. I don't know 100% if that is true but it seems like it might be.

Also, just as LC doesn't really work by reducing calories, I don't think that's really what happens here. To use myself as an example...between my UD's and my DD's, I am eating about 2000 calories per day on average (even more since I've raised my DD ceiling), but I've still lost a good chunk of weight that I don't think I would have lost if I just ate 2000 calories every day.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kissa View Post
Well, I am sure he cares for you but he is no diplomat.

Let me see, where to start. I am not as good with words as Pat (So Happy).

First of all I believe in the healing power of JUDDD. The difference in the rotations triggers the SIRT which helps our bodies and our metabolisms to heal.

I am in Maintenance and many, though not all, of us who are find that now that we have healed our metabolisms after years of eating LC or Low Fat or extremely Low Cal, we can eat way more on our UDs. We are therefore are eating more calories over all, without gaining, than we could have ever imagined.

I am sure other JUDDD BUDDDs will answer you more clearly.

But rest assured, this is not just another VLCal diet.
Thanks for the reply. He does calorie cycling too, just not the low cals of Juddd. He says the calorie cycling is about keeping the metabolism guessing as to not hinder weightless. Oh well each for their own.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:46 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Grace View Post
Wow! You didn't deserve that! Probably best you didn't argue with him because folks who judge the lifestyle/eating plans of others don't listen anyway!
I didn't argue with him. I sort of couldn't get a word in.
I appreciate that people will have different views and that's ok, I just think he is disappointed in me cause many years ago he trained me to competition and I was in optimal condition. As he is. I'm just annoyed with the way he delivered his opinion.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avicenna View Post
People always seem to have a lot of opinions about food! (I usually just nod and listen politely.)

I've read that these types of intermittent fasting plans (like LC) actually promote losing fat and retaining muscle. I don't know 100% if that is true but it seems like it might be.

Also, just as LC doesn't really work by reducing calories, I don't think that's really what happens here. To use myself as an example...between my UD's and my DD's, I am eating about 2000 calories per day on average (even more since I've raised my DD ceiling), but I've still lost a good chunk of weight that I don't think I would have lost if I just ate 2000 calories every day.
I understand. Carbs are generally higher in cals so when carbs are cut cals just naturally come down. Well done on your success so far.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:44 AM   #9
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The thing is, everyone has a right to their opinion. However, he's a body builder so I don't know whether I'd necessarily take his view as gospel. Unless a I was speaking to a clinical specialist and they told me that I was doing the wrong thing now, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:39 AM   #10
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Mitsa, it may be heresy on this board for me to agree with him, but I do. I'm probably going to be adopting JUDDD for maintenance, but I'm now pledged to Stillman for actual weight reduction.

I eat around 700-800 calories/day with a high protein, low fat, VLC program. When I don't CHEAT, I consistently lose 2.5-3lbs/week. If I adopted JUDDD for weight loss, I'd be "averaging" around 950 calories/day and would expect some slowing in my numbers.

There's NO question that folks can definitely lose weight if their daily calorie intake establishes a significant deficit. I like LC/VLC because it decreases my hunger, but I've seen others lose on a Mediterranean diet as well.

Good Luck,
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:23 AM   #11
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Ah, well if you would like another view, have a look at Leangains and Marks Daily Apple: Intermittent Fasting. These people all report gains with a fasting protocol. BTW Leangains is so full of amazing information about fasting and body recomposition.

Enjoy!

BTW, you are one beautiful lady!
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Why don't you just eat 895 calories a day?
I think I've already pointed you to this thread:
IT’S ALL TRUE!!!! (Long)
Sorry to repeat myself, but I find her story super-inspiring!!!
A perfect example of how eating low calories every day can result in ill health and a slow metabolism, while eating the SAME calories divided over two days à la JUDDD can result in glowing health & roaring metabolism!!!
Next time I go to the library, I'm going to print out that first post & carry it around to show anyone who is curious about JUDDD! (I'm very lucky that all of my friends are curious rather than critical.)

*895 calories a day would really limit your choices and fat intake. I hate fat-free dairy, get sick of skinless chicken & egg whites, and I feel better when I get omega-3s. I enjoy full-fat dairy, fatty meats & fish & whole eggs, as well as walnuts and olive oil on my UDs...more than I could on WW or some other daily low-cal plan!

*895 is presumably your 2-day average using a low % on the JUDDD calculator...you can of course go to higher % & eat more if you exercise!

*If he understands calorie cycling, perhaps he will eventually come around to the idea of JUDDD. Your calories may seem very low to him, but since you are a woman & possibly of a different height/age/activity level than him, he might not have any idea what his calories would be if he were you! Do you know, when I put my stats into the calculator but change the sex to male, I get 400-600 calories more PER DAY?!!!
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Last edited by piratejenny; 05-30-2012 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:08 AM   #13
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Well I will be the prime example of why he is wrong.

I ate 800 to 850 cals a day for months. I have hypo and at 300lbs could NOT lose weight eating this low. I was so frustrated I went to myEndo and the dumb azz kept saying eat less aand you will lose. I could lose a lb and then gain two, up and down and it left me frustrated. Since I have been on JUDDD I lost 9lbs in 3 weeks. That is 3lbs a week, and although we see the bounce it has constantly kept going down week after week, and on average if I take my UD and DD calories I am eating 1400 a day way more than before, so no Im sorry his philosophy does not work for all.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:11 AM   #14
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There you have it.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:31 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Well I will be the prime example of why he is wrong.

I ate 800 to 850 cals a day for months. I have hypo and at 300lbs could NOT lose weight eating this low. I was so frustrated I went to myEndo and the dumb azz kept saying eat less aand you will lose. I could lose a lb and then gain two, up and down and it left me frustrated. Since I have been on JUDDD I lost 9lbs in 3 weeks. That is 3lbs a week, and although we see the bounce it has constantly kept going down week after week, and on average if I take my UD and DD calories I am eating 1400 a day way more than before, so no Im sorry his philosophy does not work for all.
Yes! Yes!!! YESSSS!!!!
This is super-inspiring, too!!!
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:41 AM   #16
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Listen to the JUDDD sisters, honey. They know whereof they speak. LOVE these stories!
Great thread pj. And thanks, Arlene.

Last edited by Joyjoy; 05-30-2012 at 11:45 AM..
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:37 PM   #17
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People get so evangelical about their nutrition beliefs, lol! In actuality, a lot of bodybuilders do something similar to JUDDD or IF... and it works for many of them.

I am also of the belief that low calories, long term and regularly, just tank the metabolism. That is why so many post-figure-competition athletes have horrid rebound gains!

He's entitled to his opinion, of course (and its a good thing, because it doesn't sound likely to change!) -- as you are entitled to yours. Good for you for just letting it skim by you.
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:26 PM   #18
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How sad for your friend that he cannot be open to more than one theory at a time.
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitsa View Post
I didn't argue with him. I sort of couldn't get a word in.
I appreciate that people will have different views and that's ok, I just think he is disappointed in me cause many years ago he trained me to competition and I was in optimal condition. As he is. I'm just annoyed with the way he delivered his opinion.
here's the thing. everyone is NOT entitled to their opinion. Everyone is entitled to an INFORMED opinion. NO one is entitled to ignorance. What he did WAS ignorant. Doesn't make him a bad person, but it makes him someone you don't need to talk to THIS about.

My husband is a personal trainer with some pretty well known clients. He's been in the business for 25 years and is constantly learning, studying, going to seminars etc. He didn't have a reaction, because intermittent fasting is TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE in that arena. It's something lifters frequently do, and there is science behind it!

I'm sorry you had to deal with it, and sorry for him that he had such a knee-jerk reaction. One day, perhaps he'll come around, but until then just keep JUDDDING! My friend has a saying for times like this: what he thinks is none of your business. He can go on thinking it all he wants. It has very little to do with you. You are on a path to success and nothing that any naysayers has to contribute should change that!
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Abby View Post
Mitsa, it may be heresy on this board for me to agree with him, but I do. I'm probably going to be adopting JUDDD for maintenance, but I'm now pledged to Stillman for actual weight reduction.

I eat around 700-800 calories/day with a high protein, low fat, VLC program. When I don't CHEAT, I consistently lose 2.5-3lbs/week. If I adopted JUDDD for weight loss, I'd be "averaging" around 950 calories/day and would expect some slowing in my numbers.

There's NO question that folks can definitely lose weight if their daily calorie intake establishes a significant deficit. I like LC/VLC because it decreases my hunger, but I've seen others lose on a Mediterranean diet as well.

Good Luck,
Stillman is quite popular in Oz. You have found something that clicks with your body and thats awesome. Inspiring weight loss, Good on you.

Thanks for the inut.
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:13 PM   #21
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Circus girl- I understand what you are saying, i get the difference. Thank you.

[B]Muffabuff[/B I know he goes into large deficits about 4-5 weeks from competition day, but he only has 9% bodyfat year round and competes at 4-5%. my point is, he cuts calories ALOT too.

minimonkey and joyjoy - thanks for the input.

Piratejenny Thanks, i enjoyed reading your post.
Thanks everyone, i appreciate everyones input and advice.
I ate ALOT of rice crackers last night, it was the only thing i could drown my sorrows on that has hardly any fat, but does have carbs. I didnt have my allocated chicken salad though, so dont know how many calories i had, shouldve been a dd. oh well.

Im not sure if i should do a dd or ud today now, after last nights snacking.

p.s. he did text me this morning and apologized for the outburst. He said he would help and support me , but was abit taken back initially by the lack of calories.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:28 PM   #22
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Avicenna- re : retaining muscle.
The idea is that when one is on low cals, after a short time the metabolism realizes that the cals are low and so it says " I don't need this big furnace, so reduce furnace to meet calorie intake" (muscle catabolism) as muscle is metabolically active and needs more fuel than fat to sustain itself.
That's what they reckon.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:46 PM   #23
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I've read, though, that muscle burns a lot fewer calories than we've been led to believe.
Like "every pound of muscle burns 50 calories a day and fat only burns 3!!!!"

From Mark's Daily Apple:
"Claude Bouchard, an obesity researcher from the Pennington Biomedical Research Center...revealed that a pound of muscle, at rest, burns about six calories per day (and a pound of fat burns about two)."

If our bodies start breaking down muscle if we don't have a protein shake every 2 hours, how did we ever chase down antelopes when we ran out of food?!

I think it's more likely that our bodies would burn fat for fuel (1g=9calories) before muscle...at least in athletic people who don't have metabolic disorders.

I know many weightlifters are very, very careful about what they eat, and how often, and certainly have the physiques with single-digit fat % to show that they have found what works for them, nutritionally. But it certainly isn't a very natural or casual way to eat. I think it would be interesting if, somewhere down the road, IF becomes a more accepted WOE amongst bodybuilders, and will have similar or better results with a lot less fuss and fewer jugs of powder.

I'm glad your friend realized his "outburst" was inappropriate, and apologized.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:53 AM   #24
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Assuming you are still speaking to him, encourage him to do an internet search on 'sirtuin enzymes caloric restriction'. Then do the search yourself...not so you will be in a position to argue if this comes up with other bodybuilder friends but so you will be able to 'answer' them in your head.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:13 AM   #25
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In the book Dr J does not imply that if you consume more calories than you need you will not put on weight or at least fail to loose. He is adamant that calories still count. He advises keeping track of UD calories as well after the first month or so as people tend to adapt and over eat on UDs.

He acknowledges that a trail group using IF also cut their UD calories and showed good loss.

I'm not saying you may not have better and healthier loss on JUDDD but you do need to make sure your total calories for the week are low enough to give you the loss you wish. I do better keeping my UDs pretty low. I simply didn't loose on my numbers according to the website.

Those numbers can be incorrect for you by hundreds and I see a lot of shorter ladies here on very low UD calories. Mine were up there in the 2000s.

So I do JUDDD for the good health benefits but restrict my calories.

Both can be true.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:33 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damazon View Post
Ah, well if you would like another view, have a look at Leangains and Marks Daily Apple: Intermittent Fasting. These people all report gains with a fasting protocol. BTW Leangains is so full of amazing information about fasting and body recomposition.

Enjoy!

BTW, you are one beautiful lady!
I did read Leangains, yes, very interesting. The thing is, Im actually enjoying Juddd. Although the first 3 days i was still trying to figure it all out, I feel relieved with the dd because i just dont feel like eating and the energy levels are out of this world. I did dd yesterday and ud today. I still feel i may be under my ud cals (1490) by a couple hundred but i couldnt fit anymore in. Im stuffed.

I've sort of got a bounce in my step. I havent weighed myself and i wont till monday morning and that will represent the end of the first week for me and on to the second I feel lighter? dont know, cant describe it, my tummy feels lighter, flatter, not so bloated ??? It will be interesting to see if the scale has moved at all?

Btw, thanks for the lovely comment.
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Old 06-01-2012, 07:43 AM   #27
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Great "side effects" already! Yay for you!!!
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