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Old 05-26-2012, 03:16 PM   #1
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For real, people!

I need some insight. I posted this in a thread but didn't get a response so I'm starting one so you can all pay attention to ME!

I've been here almost a month and I'm loving what I am seeing. NO doubt. I haven't *technically* lost anything since joining, but I came from hcg p2 so I had just lost. I'm not worried about the non-losses in general. The scale has jumped around, it just hasn't gotten below where I started.

ANYWAY. My problem is that I came here from hcg, super familiar with VLCD days and never once had an issue. Until now. On DD's I am STARVING. I don't eat until lunch and that's FINE. But I really am on the brink of uncomfortable throughout the day. It's bearable, but not as much fun as it could be!

I choose lean protein as the bulk of my calories and pair it with veggies for bulk. That's pretty much it. I don't do fruit, I don't do flour, I don't do sugar. I try to keep my calories filling for me. It MAY be because I'm now doing starches on UD's but I'm not too sure about that. Regardless, I'm feeling great physically on both days.

The one day I saw a HUGE downward leap in the scale was following a DD where I ate a bit more than usual. I'm wondering if raising my calories could benefit me at this point and get the losses rolling. Yanno, two birds, one stone? It would be great to add 100 calories or so to my DD's but I'd love to get some feedback from people who have BTDT. Maybe the hunger is normal! IT seems though, that for most it's not. At least, not a month in.

And for what it's worth, I'm a person that always does better with more calories. I'm just scared to add and push myself even further behind. HALP!
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:38 PM   #2
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What are you using for your DD calories now?
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:44 PM   #3
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600. Which is 30%.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:52 PM   #4
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I say try it out. The worst that can happen is you have a small gain, which will come back off if needed. Or, it could be just what you need. There are some here who need over 500 on DDs to lose. You may be one of the lucky ones.

Another thought is that most of us experience appetite suppression fairly quickly, but there are a few who were 8-9 weeks in before getting that particular benefit. I'd still say raise them a bit for a week and see what happens. You may find just having the extra calories "available" tames the hunger beast and you end up not using them. I'm allowing 750-800 (not trying to lose at the moment) but often stay around 500-600 just because I'm perfectly satisfied.
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Old 05-26-2012, 04:02 PM   #5
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I agree! I am maintaining at 1700/700 but I have had a 2 lbs loss in the couple of weeks that I have been maintaining. Don't know whether this is my sweet spot?
Or if I am having the luck that other maintainers have been having???
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:56 PM   #6
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Important question coming up...do you stick to your calories on your UD? Not over not under?
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:58 PM   #7
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yup. except for two days that were estimated because I didn't have the cals from my meal out....but it was a decent ballpark.
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Old 05-26-2012, 08:41 PM   #8
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You would be surprised how dangerous "ball parking" can be. The UD and DD are a very delicate balance that even one or two hundred calorie off can keep you from losing. I know from my own experience. I wasn't losing because I was eating 500 cal on down days instead of 300 cal. I didn't realize that after the first two weeks I had to follow the calculations to the letter. When I did I lost 3 1/2 pounds that first week of doing my DD exactly as calculated for me. You must realize how little it takes over or under your calories to throw the balance of this woe off. As I'm sure you know 100-200 calories can be as little as a couple of " tastes" of something yummy. I bet if you follow all your numbers to a tee you will begin to lose. I'm rooting for you, I know you can do it!

Last edited by Muffabuff; 05-26-2012 at 08:47 PM.. Reason: What r ur DD calories calculated at?
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Old 05-26-2012, 08:51 PM   #9
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I wanted to add "ball parking" two days out of seven is not calorie counting 28% of the week. When you look at it that way it looks pretty bad for weight loss. Count your calories girl!
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:31 AM   #10
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it's 2 days out of 28 I've ballparked, not out of 7! Both were UD's.

I also counted pretty well, the ballpark was one meal that was pretty "countable." I had a cheeseburger, no bun, lettuce, tomato, onion and a side of brussel sprouts with butter and lemon. I can get pretty close with that. The wild card was creme brulee. My two days that I ballparked I had no breakfast, lunch was counted and I ended up with 1000 cals to use at that dinner. I may have gone a bit over, but they were up days so I didn't worry that much about it.

I never ballpark on my DD's. I have calculated every one of them and trust me....I never go under! (I don't go over either, except by maybe 20 cals or so.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffabuff View Post
As I'm sure you know 100-200 calories can be as little as a couple of " tastes" of something yummy. I bet if you follow all your numbers to a tee you will begin to lose. I'm rooting for you, I know you can do it!
Yes, absolutely. BUT I've very strict (here's where OCD works for me!) I don't "taste" anything. I don't snack, ever. I eat meals. 2 per day, occasionally 3 on UD's but that's rare.

My DD's I have 5 or 6 meals to choose from, and I know the cals in each. I don't deviate from them, eat out, play with them etc.

My DD's are spot on every single time, give or take 20 cals. The only exception was one day that I was starving and couldn't take it. I had 35 cals of cheese and 40 cals of ham that I wouldn't normally. I lost the next day for the first and only time.

I'm not terribly worried that I'm not losing, I'm worried that I'm quite hungry on DD's. That doesn't seem right to me. For the first week or two, maybe. At this stage I feel that it might be something to pay attention to...but I'm willing to be wrong. That's why I want the feedback!
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:43 AM   #12
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Here's another thought though. What if you WERE losing all that time, but your body was just keeping the fat cells full of water hoping you would drop the ball and lose your resolve like it tries to make you do on the down days, but you didn't give up. And IT finally gave up and dropped the water?

You don't lose a huge amount in one day. I think you were seeing all your hard work over the weeks pay off. But I don't know for sure, I am just guessing. My 2 cents...
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:46 AM   #13
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it's possible! It was over three weeks before I saw a drop and it was almost 2 pounds! yes, I was working up to that and it didn't happen overnight. I agree.

I haven't played with the calories yet. And I WON'T if it's possible that this is working for me. I just want to know if it's possible that upping my cals (and decreasing the hunger) *could* produce better results, or if I should just stick with what I'm doing.
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Old 05-27-2012, 08:01 AM   #14
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Yes, I am a "tweaker" too, I like to experiment with myself. JUDDD is working for me, but slowly, just like you. So I am going back to low carb levels while JUDDDing to see how that works for me.

I would definitely write down what you are doing now so that if your tweak doesn't work you go back to what does work. And KUDOS on your loss!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-27-2012, 08:59 AM   #15
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You could try upping your DD calories by another hundred to see if that helps, but usually.. it doesn't. If we are eating up to our full UD calorie allotment, it's almost assuredly not that we still need even more calories on our Down Days to be able to lose weight. LOL

The more probable reason you are not seeing weight loss showing up on the scale dial is that you are merely in a time of pause.. where your body is evening itself out on the inside, coming off of hcg and very low calories, every P2 day. The fact that those low cals cause weight loss pretty fast is exciting. The fact that those low cals can bring our metabolic speed down almost as fast is disturbing. But the fact is, it sometimes takes a little while for JUDDD to get that issue addressed, and to get weight loss started up again.

And do remember.. JUDDD isn't known to be a plan of real fast weight loss. It does address a lot of our broken health issues as we go along though.. healing much that is broken and functioning poorly with us as the weeks go by. And if you follow your numbers, one of the things that usually happens for us is that our metabolism perks back up again. Is, in fact, goaded into functioning at a better rate!

The problem with tweaking is that a whole lot of weight loss isn't remotely linear to our way of viewing it. The number on the scale just can't be trusted to tell the entire story, and very often we are truly losing body FAT and nothing is showing up on the scale. We have folks reporting all the inches they are losing... while the scale says they are stalled with their weight loss. (???) So.. that *weight* is made up of a whole lot more than just our fat, and all this time.. JUDDD is working! It's working! And yet.. if you're relying entirely on what the scale tells you, it's possible that you will be tweaking yourself away from the JUDDD level that is working for you, just because you expect to see constantly falling numbers on the scale, and that doesn't always happen for us. Tweaking can be dangerous. Tweaking can throw a monkey wrench into the works if it isn't needed. Tweaking can do something that opposes the loss of body fat we are experiencing, as shown by measurements and inches being lost, and cause our true weight loss progress to sputter. So prove to yourself by sitting pat for several weeks before deciding to play around a great deal with the numbers. JMO here. LOL

As to the hunger on DDs... When folks go down to almost starvation levels on calories and hold there day after day, most hunger fades away. Most folks who fast for periods report this interesting happening, but it makes fasting a lot easier once the hunger feeling has died.

On JUDDD we do get the UD interruption, so can't rely on extended low calorie days to dampen our hunger reflex. And many of us don't low carb on JUDDD, so no appetite suppression from that. But JUDDD does seem to result in our brain/tummy/signals being set to a new habit, and most of us get pretty used to low DDs with little hunger bothering us. It's like we get used to it and it goes away.

Advice is always to make sure you eat a full and robust Up Day to tide you over well into your following DD. Experiment with the food choices you feed yourself on the DDs. Lots of us need plenty of FOOD.. plates and bowls full of it! Lots of CHEWING! And that means piles and heaps of low calorie vegetables in stir frys and salads and egg white omelets, etc. Others do well on a bit of protein and some fat.

As a last effort, Yes.. up your DD calories a bit to allow yourself to just plainly eat more calories on those days. Better to eat a bit more than to fold and quit altogether. You can always work yourself back down in calories on the DDs as you get *into* it a bit more.

Regardless of your choices, I want to wish you great good luck on this plan. Hoping to see your wonderful weight loss reports as the weeks pass, and will be looking forward to your announcement of *Goal* one of these days too!
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Old 05-27-2012, 09:21 AM   #16
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that makes a lot of sense. thank you.

I know that upping cals doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it like that! I'm just recalling how on p2, I don't lose AT ALL at 500 calories. I go to 750 and the weight pours off. I'm erroneously bringing that experience over and trying to apply it to JUDDD. That's not wise. Though I do believe hcg as it's written isn't starvation, I absolutely know what you're saying.

I also know you're right that my body is pausing, which is why I'm not worried about the lack of losses.

I have no intention of walking away, and I'm not the kind of person who will lose control and eat ALL THE THINGS! on my DD. I am convinced about this WOE because of my non scale victories so that will keep me going. I just want to make sure I'm working the program to the best of it's and my potential.

I eat pretty low carb, so my DD's are 2 gigantic plates of food. I chew a LOT. I am not one who will do well with shakes or things like that. I need to EAT.

You've given me some great things to hold on to Pat, and I truly appreciate your perspective and the time you took to offer it. Thanks for understanding where I'm at.

I haven't tweaked yet, but I will probably do so for this week, as it's that TOM. I'm always hungrier then anyway. Might as well head that off at the pass. I'll probably do 700 cal DD this week just do compensate for that, and then get back to my 600 number next week.

THANK YOU ALL for talking me through this.
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Old 05-27-2012, 08:12 PM   #17
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My apologies I misunderstood that it was a month. Right before my TOM my hunger is ravenous and I don't think adjusting your calories on DD a little bit upward can really hurt. Sometimes one really must take the edge off! on your two pound loss I'm very pleased for you. I think once the train gets moving it usually keeps going for a while.i always keep Simply Lite sugar free chocolate in the house for just such an occasion. I get it at Trader Joes. It is really. Half a bar is 200 calories and about 2 carbs I think. Perfect for that PMS /TOM time.
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Last edited by Muffabuff; 05-27-2012 at 08:19 PM.. Reason: I love Creme brûlée I bet it was worth it lol
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Old 05-27-2012, 08:32 PM   #18
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thank you! We'll see how tomorrow goes. I'm going to stick to calories, but if I'm miserable at night I'll add a little extra.

boy this TOM really gets to me! I shouldn't say that, I don't have a hard time other than being HUNGRY!

Thanks for all the support.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:15 PM   #19
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TOM always makes me ravenous too. Add a few extra cals to get you through; your metabolism tends to be revved up before and during TOM (which explains my difficult DD today, TOM came to visit) so you can probably handle an extra 100 cals or so and it shouldn't derail you. I tend to eat rather low carb all the time anyways myself, better losses that way with JUDDD. Just my two cents.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:03 AM   #20
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I'd cut UD calories a little and stick to low carb. JUDDD does have a magic to it but it's still a fat loss diet and the calories matter. Make sure your weekly total adds up to a 3,500 or less deficit. That gives you a full pound weight drop if your activity/weight calculations are correct. Always bear in mind too that those calculations are based on an average. They can be out for you by 500 cals a day! So you need to find the right UD number for you. You also need to count every UD calorie. Go over and it won't work. If you read the book that message is in there. He just doesn't want us to feel restricted on UDs by saying that too much.

Hunger was an issue for me until I resumed low carb.
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:40 AM   #21
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Lots of good advice here. I hope it helps. Keep us informed please.
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:03 AM   #22
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I stay 100% low carb on DDs....do you mean that you felt an improvement when you went back to low carb all the time? I do best low carb, but I've found that I'm really enjoying the freedom to eat some potatoes or corn pasta on my UD's. It's not every UD, but I do enjoy having that ability! I would still call myself low-moderate carb.

Perhaps I will attempt the shift, but I think I'll increase my cals first and see if I can get over this hump. It's true that the numbers reflect an average, so maybe I'll play with that first.

If I go back to 100% primal (where I was for over a decade) I wouldn't be totally sad, but part of what I loved about JUDDD was the bit of freedom it allowed!
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by circusgirl View Post
I stay 100% low carb on DDs....do you mean that you felt an improvement when you went back to low carb all the time? I do best low carb, but I've found that I'm really enjoying the freedom to eat some potatoes or corn pasta on my UD's. It's not every UD, but I do enjoy having that ability! I would still call myself low-moderate carb.

Perhaps I will attempt the shift, but I think I'll increase my cals first and see if I can get over this hump. It's true that the numbers reflect an average, so maybe I'll play with that first.

If I go back to 100% primal (where I was for over a decade) I wouldn't be totally sad, but part of what I loved about JUDDD was the bit of freedom it allowed!
Here's what I think is happening for you right now... and I don't know all your stats, but I assume that your Up Day and Down Day calorie numbers are set correctly... and then I assume that you are actually weighing out - measuring out - your portions and foods and accurately tracking those calories being eaten... and then I assume that you are truly respecting your UD and DD calorie ceilings and coming in at about those numbers or quite close on most of your days (not much over and not much under)..... So, the actual *doing JUDDD* part is what I'm going to be counting on.

I think.. you have started adding some carbs back into your diet, and you are replenishing your stored carb fuel and accompanying *water weight*, as Mother Nature designed. This happens to almost all of us if/when we decide to increase our carbohydrate portion of our diets. That is the third macro-nutrient for Mother Nature's children...

If you are following your JUDDD calorie numbers, I expect you may well be losing some body fat these days, at the same time your body is *carbing up* a little bit and refilling your depleted fluid reserve along with those carbs.

So the one is offsetting the other. At least as far as the scale can tell. You are losing body fat but gaining water weight, and at this point.. you're still mostly even.

Did you take measurements when you first started JUDDD? Lots of folks report they are getting smaller, the tape measure is showing loss, but the scale isn't reporting any change in actual weight. Of course, *weight* as it is shown us on a scale is made up of a whole lot of factors, and most of it isn't body FAT!

When I started JUDDD, I knew that I wanted to incorporate carbs back into my diet!!! I didn't believe they were my curse or my poison, I truly felt much better with more carbs in my diet, more alert and vibrant, stronger, better feelings of general physical and mental health.. Just better in every way.

So knowing I was going to be able to enjoy carbs in my life again, I just decided to carb UP, and I did. I could hardly care any less about what the *scale* says. I only care about my size and how I feel, my energy and interest in life, etc. Lots of us just carb up and are done with it. LOL
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:43 AM   #24
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Here's what I think is happening for you right now... and I don't know all your stats, but I assume that your Up Day and Down Day calorie numbers are set correctly... and then I assume that you are actually weighing out - measuring out - your portions and foods and accurately tracking those calories being eaten... and then I assume that you are truly respecting your UD and DD calorie ceilings and coming in at about those numbers or quite close on most of your days (not much over and not much under)..... So, the actual *doing JUDDD* part is what I'm going to be counting on.

I think.. you have started adding some carbs back into your diet, and you are replenishing your stored carb fuel and accompanying *water weight*, as Mother Nature designed. This happens to almost all of us if/when we decide to increase our carbohydrate portion of our diets. That is the third macro-nutrient for Mother Nature's children...

If you are following your JUDDD calorie numbers, I expect you may well be losing some body fat these days, at the same time your body is *carbing up* a little bit and refilling your depleted fluid reserve along with those carbs.

So the one is offsetting the other. At least as far as the scale can tell. You are losing body fat but gaining water weight, and at this point.. you're still mostly even.

Did you take measurements when you first started JUDDD? Lots of folks report they are getting smaller, the tape measure is showing loss, but the scale isn't reporting any change in actual weight. Of course, *weight* as it is shown us on a scale is made up of a whole lot of factors, and most of it isn't body FAT!

When I started JUDDD, I knew that I wanted to incorporate carbs back into my diet!!! I didn't believe they were my curse or my poison, I truly felt much better with more carbs in my diet, more alert and vibrant, stronger, better feelings of general physical and mental health.. Just better in every way.

So knowing I was going to be able to enjoy carbs in my life again, I just decided to carb UP, and I did. I could hardly care any less about what the *scale* says. I only care about my size and how I feel, my energy and interest in life, etc. Lots of us just carb up and are done with it. LOL
As to the bolded, you are correct. I figure you can't whine about something not working if you're not doing it 100%! The only thing I'm NOT doing is the 20%. Coming off of hcg and being who I am I just didn't want to go that low. So I started at 600 cals on my DD's. I know he suggests 500, but again...I had just done an extended round of hcg and just didn't see that being awesome. I'm glad too....I'm hungry on those 600!

I also counted my activity level as nil (since he says do a step down from what you think you should be activity wise) and based everything on that.

You may well be right. I've been low carb or VERY low carb for a long, long, time. My body is likely readjusting. I did take measurements, and while the measurements, scale or clothing sizes haven't changed, my mother asked yesterday how much I"d lost this past week because I looked different. (We hcg'd together and are very "tuned in" to that aspect and she wouldn't say anything if she didn't honestly think I'd lost.) She was very suprised that I hadn't. So something appears to be shifting, even if NONE of the numbers reflect it!

And I certainly agree on the water weight. I did what amounted to a 60 day round of hcg with one 7 day low carb interruption (I increased my fat for a week.) I will tell you that I have NEVER been so dehydrated in my life. It was not electrolyte imbalance either....it was dehydration. Even though I drank around a gallon a day and my muscles ached for weeks. Once I reintroduced carbs, literally THAT DAY the aching stopped, even though I gained a few pounds of water. Really, BECAUSE I gained a few pounds of water. My body clearly was suffering and needed it. I often get like that my last few days of hcg, but this was prolonged. To be fair, it generally resolves when I increase fat and add fruit over a day or two, but it was immediate with potato and a gluten free roll.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:15 AM   #25
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Based on what you said with hcg (losing on 750cals, but not 500), I actually would try 2 weeks of 700 calorie dd's. At that level, you still have a wide spread between UD/DD, so aren't going to lose out on the healing aspect. If it doesn't work, you will likely just maintain, which is what you are doing now. But maybe it will help. Only trying it will tell.

Since you are going to eat a bit more with TOM here anyway, just extend it another week and see what happens. You can always go back.

I know Dr. J says fasting is fine on DD's, but there have been people here who found losses stall if they go too low on a DD (just as there are those who stall if they have too many). If the stress response is too deep, and you don't pull out of it on your UD before plunging in again, your body may just be holding on too tightly. And maybe it needs a little more to convince it it's ok to let go.

Regardless, 2 weeks isn't going to do any permanent damage. You are so in tune with the non-scale victories happening, that if you start to lose the anti-inflammatory benefits, you are going to know it pretty quickly.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:40 AM   #26
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you are correct! my NSV's have been pretty tremendous.
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