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Old 03-31-2012, 09:32 PM   #1
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Stats: Goal Feb '10. Lost 163 lbs.
Maintanance Numbers Question

First I apologize for the length of this. I feel like it's easier to help somebody if you have as much information as possible.

I don't post here much anymore but still read/get ideas and purchase from Netrition all the time. I'm not pure LC anymore and too many people get way too emotional about that so I just read most of the time now. I have some days where I'm really low on carbs and some days really high. I don't and never have demonized them though. I loved LC for weight loss. It made it fairly quick and painless. But I knew I was never going to eat pure LC forever and life is just too short to sit around and argue about it.

I've been doing a version of JUDDD since the first of the year. I am not doing it for weight issues at all. I lost 163 pounds and have maintained it perfectly for 2 years (and a month).

I doubt any of you are familiar with me from my weight loss days here but I have Lupus and a million related health issues. In December a lady at my support group was telling us how she'd lost a good amount of weight doing JUDDD with her drs support. She went on to say that for those of us who didn't need to lose weight it was also supposed to help with breathing and inflammation (2 of my very worst problems). In the back of my mind I vaguely remembered seeing some of Beeb's posts here in the ML so I started reading here and on Dr. Johnson's site.

I started following what I'm referring to as a version of JUDDD since I never went down to 500 calories at all on DD. I started at 1000 calories (maintenance number from the calculator) to see how my meds would react at that level and that's where I've stayed. I also only do 3 DD's a week - usually Sun/Tue/Thurs but have switched them to M/W/F a couple times. The rest of the week is 3 UD and 1 MD.

Even though I was not trying to lose weight I've lost an additional 5 pounds and I am trying to gain them back. Not only for vanity reasons (I think they all came from my face) but because the 5 pounds have thrown my Coumadin (blood thinner) dosing off and I'm having a hard time re-regulating it. I feel so bad about posting this here since I know people are trying to lose weight and this must seem like I'm complaining about needing to gain but I initially spiked so high they had to give me a vit k shot to thicken my blood. So it truly could be the difference between bleeding to death or not.

My question to the experts here is: to keep from losing anymore weight but to also get the other JUDDD benefits should I leave the DD calories alone and continue upping my UD calories? Or should I change the MD into a fourth UD?

To maintain my weight the calculator gives me 996 for DD and 1660 for UD. The UD is way off for me. I'm eating between 2000 - 2100 on UP days and still not gaining the lost weight back. So: DD's are 1000 UD's are 2100 and MD is 1400. Which days would y'all up?

Prior to this I never counted anything (even when losing weight - I just ate from a list of low carb foods and never weighed or counted anything) so I didn't have a clue what my intake was. I initially followed the numbers the calculator gave me but when I unexpectedly lost weight I sat down and entered some of my prior routine food days into a calculator. I had easily been maintaining on an average of 2000/day. I don't think I can raise my UP days to 3000 though to get the 2000/day avg. (I feel the need to add this - I eat full fat everything so the volume of food isn't extremely high just lots of fat calories.)

The reason I don't just say to heck with this and go back to 'regular' eating is because I have experienced a measurable drop in my inflammation markers - from 9.8 and almost off the 'chart' in early Dec to 7.4 last week - it's still way too high for my body to actually feel the difference but my blood work hasn't been in the 7's in literally YEARS. I want to keep this up for while to see if I will eventually feel the benefits too.

Sorry again for the length and thanks for any advice.
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Last edited by Gulf Coast Girl; 03-31-2012 at 09:40 PM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:54 PM   #2
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Stats: 170+/135-138/145 5'6 39y pcos/IR/metformin
WOE: WL=LC then JUDDD/IF; Maintenance=IF/75%+ "healthy"
Start Date: LC 6/11; JUDDD 10/11; Maintenance 11/11
Quote:
First I apologize for the length of this. I feel like it's easier to help somebody if you have as much information as possible.
Definitely don't apologize! We love hearing from you, and you're right - the more info someone gives, the better!

I don't post here much anymore but still read/get ideas and purchase from Netrition all the time.
Quote:
I'm not pure LC anymore and too many people get way too emotional about that so I just read most of the time now. I have some days where I'm really low on carbs and some days really high. I don't and never have demonized them though. I loved LC for weight loss. It made it fairly quick and painless. But I knew I was never going to eat pure LC forever and life is just too short to sit around and argue about it.
You're so right, and I know you won't get any flack about this from the JUDDD buds! We're at all levels of carbs here, and welcome all eating plans into the JUDDD calorie-cycling framework!

Quote:
I've been doing a version of JUDDD since the first of the year. I am not doing it for weight issues at all. I lost 168 pounds and have maintained it perfectly for 2 years (and a month).
Wowza! Congrats, you!!!

I doubt any of you are familiar with me from my weight loss days here but I have Lupus and a million related health issues. In December a lady at my support group was telling us how she'd lost a good amount of weight doing JUDDD with her drs support. She went on to say that for those of us who didn't need to lose weight it was also supposed to help with breathing and inflammation (2 of my very worst problems). In the back of my mind I vaguely remembered seeing some of Beeb's posts here in the ML so I started reading here and on Dr. Johnson's site.

I started following what I'm referring to as a version of JUDDD since I never went down to 500 calories at all on DD. I started at 1000 calories (maintenance number from the calculator) to see how my meds would react at that level and that's where I've stayed. I also only do 3 DD's a week - usually Sun/Tue/Thurs but have switched them to M/W/F a couple times. The rest of the week is 3 UD and 1 MD.

Even though I was not trying to lose weight I've lost an additional 5 pounds and I am trying to gain them back. Not only for vanity reasons (I think they all came from my face) but because the 5 pounds have thrown my Coumadin (blood thinner) dosing off and I'm having a hard time re-regulating it.
Quote:
I feel so bad about posting this here since I know people are trying to lose weight and this must seem like I'm complaining about needing to gain
Don't feel bad, this is a rather common occurrence in JUDDD maintainers - losing more weight than intended and trying to put a break on it! In fact, you are probably ENCOURAGING many here with this info!

but I initially spiked so high they had to give me a vit k shot to thicken my blood. So it truly could be the difference between bleeding to death or not.

My question to the experts here is: to keep from losing anymore weight but to also get the other JUDDD benefits should I leave the DD calories alone and continue upping my UD calories? Or should I change the MD into a fourth UD?

To maintain my weight the calculator gives me 996 for DD and 1660 for UD. The UD is way off for me. I'm eating between 2000 - 2100 on UP days and still not gaining the lost weight back. So: DD's are 1000 UD's are 2100 and MD is 1400. Which days would y'all up?

I'm no expert, but if it were me, I would up the UD even more. As long as you are comfortable eating 1000 on DDs (not getting too hungry from it) and can fit more into your UD, then that's what I, personally, would do, is eat more on UD. And if that still doesn't stop the weight loss, up MD too, and DD if needed. It sounds like it's a serious health matter that you gain some weight, so please, do what it takes to gain some weight!

Prior to this I never counted anything (even when losing weight - I just ate from a list of low carb foods and never weighed or counted anything) so I didn't have a clue what my intake was. I initially followed the numbers the calculator gave me but when I unexpectedly lost weight I sat down and entered some of my prior routine food days into a calculator. I had easily been maintaining on an average of 2000/day. I don't think I can raise my UP days to 3000 though to get the 2000/day avg. (I feel the need to add this - I eat full fat everything so the volume of food isn't extremely high just lots of fat calories.)

If you're able to add in calories with some healthier carbs such as veggies, fruit, whole grain, etc. that might help you fit more calories in. The fat/protein you're eating may be causing so much appetite suppression you can't get enough calories in. Do you think this might be a factor? Maybe raising the calories even to 2500 will do the trick.

The reason I don't just say to heck with this and go back to 'regular' eating is because I have experienced a measurable drop in my inflammation markers - from 9.8 and almost off the 'chart' in early Dec to 7.4 last week - it's still way too high for my body to actually feel the difference but my blood work hasn't been in the 7's in literally YEARS. I want to keep this up for while to see if I will eventually feel the benefits too.

Sorry again for the length and thanks for any advice.

I totally understand that you want to stay on JUDDD. So do I - forever, and a lot of the maintainers feel the same because we've found that not only do we lose weight and maintain with ease, but this woe makes us feel better mentally, emotionally, physically. It's a lifetime thing, not just a weight-loss gimmick! Congrats on the good inflammation markers! Please let us know how you do!

I'm sure wiser JUDDD buds than I will be along soon to help you out. Just take care of yourself - do what you need to in order to get that needed weight back on.
__________________
Started JUDDD 10/12/11 after LC.
MAINTENANCE since 11/12/11, & have lost more weight. I shake things up all the time with my version of Pirate Jenny's MUDDD, my "Fast 5" & other IF. ...low-moderate fat....and eating "healthy" foods 75+% of the time which lets me have real life and indulgences too I've reached my goals, improved my health & appearance, and enjoy my lifetime woe!
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:47 AM   #3
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Thanks so much, Sophie.

You're right about the fat calories probably suppressing my appetite. I hadn't even thought about that. I'll play around with that this week and see what happens. I don't want to use low or even lower fat products but I can cut back on some stuff (butter) and try moving some of the higher fat foods to later in the day so I'll be hungrier earlier. I'm a boring eater at home and eat a lot of butter and cheese. Both are probably way too filling when you're trying to add in calories. When Lent is over and I can replace the ridiculous amount of cheese I snack on with Chocolate that should help too.
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Old 04-01-2012, 03:00 AM   #4
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Start Date: JUDDD 1/1/12 + LCHF 12/1/13 (controlling diabetes)
Hello Jennifer!

Bless you and thank you for sharing the changes in your inflammation markers! Finally seeing health improvements after maintaining your most impressive weight loss for so long is such positive news! I am so happy for you!

I am sure, over time, you are correct in hoping - even expecting - to feel the improvements alternate day calorie restriction is making in your body.

It is not surprising that you dropped some weight when you began JUDDDing. Those sirtuin enzymes are powerful stuff. I think Sophie gave you excellent advice - start by tuning UDs, then convert you MD to an UD if needed.

If you do find you need to tweak your DD calories (and once you get into working with UD/MD calories, I really don't think you will need to do this), the reading I have done implies most people can keep the stress response going by keeping caloric intake under 1/2 of BMR. Which means, if you do find you need to modify DD calories, you can probably fiddle with them in very, very small increments.

It is possible to stall (or even reverse) weight loss while still getting the health benefits. You are going to be living proof!


Oh, and I am startled. I didn't think there was such a thing as a 'ridiculous amount of cheese'
__________________
- Nancy
GOAL 10/3/12
Still at goal 2/6/13
STILL below goal 2/15/14

I did not "lose" weight. I evicted it. It is gone and it ain't coming back!

JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.

Last edited by gotsomeold; 04-01-2012 at 03:02 AM..
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:42 AM   #5
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Congratulations on the wonderful weight loss you accomplished, and another Congratulations to you on the fact that you have maintained that loss for over two years. You are already far beyond what many are able to accomplish with their weight loss and maintenance!

I do indeed remember your presence here at LCF, as I've been here for many years myself, although I didn't remember health issues in the picture for you. I'm sorry for that. But I didn't post a lot for years.

Sorry about the additional loss of five pounds.. and I certainly understand how that can have a bearing on some medication doses.

I believe if it were me, and I wanted to stop losing and gain some weight back, while still continuing the JUDDD plan for it's health benefits, I'd tackle the problem from a couple of different angles.

First of all, is it necessary for you to hold your Down Days to the same days each week? Is there any way you could just do a straight rotation? That balances the number of UDs and DDs over the course of every two weeks, rather than having all of your weeks come out the same, which is a tiny speck beneficial in keeping the cycle going at its potential best. Then you could add calories to every UD to try to increase your weight a few pounds again.

If it is necessary/preferable for you to keep your DDs the same each week, then I'd make that MD into a full UD, and I'd add some calories to all UDs as well, until you are gaining a bit. You will have to do the balancing game until you have it all balancing well.

The one thing about JUDDD is that after you follow it for awhile, it really does work to heal you and normalize you, so while it is trying to bring you to a lower level of slenderness, you are going to have to fight it in order to remain a little bit heavier... and *fuller* in the face! Which is what I have chosen to do as well. I'm wrinkly enough already without losing more weight and seeing the wrinkles deepen any more than they already are!

But I did want to ask whether it might also be something more than just the simple loss of those 5 pounds that is causing the Coumadin dose to now be too much. Perhaps some healing has gone on inside of you, in the workings of your body, and you no longer need to have a dose that is quite as high as what you have been on previously. Maybe worth talking with your doctor about this. Possibly when you gain the 5 pounds back and are seeing their return in your face, perhaps the Coumadin dose will still be incorrect for you because you will be *working better* internally.

You have proof that JUDDD is truly working on healing and normalizing you within. Those inflammation markers didn't just come down by themselves, so you want to continue with the JUDDD cycle for sure.

For myself, I'd try to stick to the 1000 calories for Down Days, skip the Medium Days completely, and bring my Up Days up by a few/several hundred calories each day and see if I could gain a few pounds back again. If that wasn't enough, I'd add another 100 or 200 to my DDs as well, but that would be as a last resort, as I really think much of the JUDDD *magic* is from the nice big spread between DD and UD calorie numbers.

Do you eat low carb? Or *regular*...? If you are low carb, at what level? If you could give a little more information on your food plan / food choices, that might bring some ideas to mind to help you as well.
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Last edited by SoHappy; 04-01-2012 at 06:45 AM..
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Old 04-01-2012, 03:58 PM   #6
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Thanks, Nancy and Pat .

Pat it is important for me to keep the rotation to the set days. The reason is too long and silly to share but I really want to leave them on set days.

I am working with my Dr on the Coumadin dosage. They just change the dosage with your blood results. But ideally you want to find a level that doesn't constantly jump around. I'd struggled with that for so long and for the last year or so I'd been completely regulated at the same dose. Then I lose this additional 5 pounds and it goes all haywire again. Up. Down. Sky high. All over the place. It's not just me thinking that the weight loss caused it the Dr thinks that too. (She knows I'm doing the calorie cycling and has no problem with it just says to gain back the weight).

With JUDDD I haven't changed the foods I eat. I just eat less of it on DD's. Let me add here that I am not somebody who eats a piece of cake and wants the whole thing. I can eat a piece of cake and move on with my life. So as I moved on to year 2 of maintenance I stopped being anal about only allowing the carbs on the weekend and allowed them whenever. Some days I fall low on the carb scale and sometimes high. For example these are 2 days I repeat a lot at home:

DD: (i don't like to snack on DD. I just like to do two 500 calorie meals and be done with it)

2 hamburger patties with cheese dipped in mayonnaise and ketchup with
crispy baked green beans and ketchup

a large protein shake - some combination of protein powder/hwc or some kind of fat/egg whites/cream cheese and flavorings.

(shakes are not anything I added with JUDDD I love them and have done them regularly all along)


UD

Cereal with whole milk and hwc (I wasn't adding the hwc before the weight gain I just started doing that to add some calories to the day)

Chalupas (beans/taco meat/cheese/lots of sour cream and gauc/salsa)

Cream of Wheat with sugar/butter and piece of toast with butter (I eat the Cream Of Wheat regularly for the iron. I have a really hard time absorbing iron both from supplements and meat so the dr's recommended fortified cereals which do seem to help and besides I just like it. It was one of the things i missed a lot on LC. )

If I need the extra calories I add in some snacks of cheese/nuts or grapes or cheese and crackers or cheese and butter english muffin. Or homemade fig jelly and butter english muffin. (see the butter/cheese theme )

So you can see the DD has hardly any carbs and the up day has plenty. That's the same way I was eating prior to JUDDD (with more food on DD's though). It's not anything I planned out it just happened. (and it wasn't set days either but i would say my week was always about half LC/half HC)

I eat a lot of Mexican and Italian on UD's. A lot of protein/veg/fat on DD's. Also I cook with and use Coconut Oil daily.

You wouldn't think the low carb DD's would be enough to cause a typical LC response in the body since it's pretty much always followed by high carbs but maybe I should add some whole grains to the DD's.

I'm going to play around with all of this over the next few week and see what happens. I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track in that I should always keep the DD's lower and raise the other days.

Again, thanks so much for taking the time to respond.
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:04 PM   #7
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Very interesting thread. Congrats on your weightloss and mantainence.

While I don't have your health issues I would also love to do a form of Judd to get the benefits from SIRT1 but worry about losing more weight. I'm pretty sure that will happen as I watch my husband speedily drop weight while still having dd's around 1000 and free up days. I don't know how I would consume enough on up days to balance things out yet still get a big difference in calories to keep the enzyme going.

For years I have been doing my own thing cycling carbs and calories from meal to meal as I figured out pure low carb was a weight staller in my case. I wonder if what I do also turns on this SIRT1 enzyme but to a lesser extent. I am in good health so makes me go hmmm.

I'll be very interested in how you can make this work so please share your progress.
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