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Old 03-31-2012, 07:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yam-Yam View Post

I was mentioning earlier on another post to Luna that every time my scale hits a new low, I change my stats. That's because I know I'm going to see that number again and I "visualize" it being my new number. Even if the scale continues to bounce back up after the next few UDs, my new low number is my new number!!! I'm going to claim it!! Seems to be working as I'm continually hitting the low and then bouncing even lower consistently now.

I really like your idea here and I'm going to adopt it, too!!!
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:23 PM   #32
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Sidenote-- question for Ouizoid-- is EFT like EMDR (lite?)?

I have to say one of the biggest changes for me over the past few years is stopping negative self-talk, and even though I sort of think it's "lame", certain affirmations/positive self-talk work for me.
I didn't think they would, but I was directed to give it a try (find the least lame positive thing I could say)... I started with "I make healthy choices"... and I'm a bit of a mess with laundry and in the kitchen, so "I put things away" is a less important but amusing one for my DH

I have to say, as a skeptic, that positivivity works SO MUCH BETTER than negativity.

I didn't get very far with "omg, you're so stupid and lazy, why can't you do this right?".

I'm a lot happier person now when I reward a good choice with-- I make healthy choices!
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Old 04-01-2012, 03:56 AM   #33
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Oh sorenkkg, you are so right!! Proverbs says "Death and life are in the power of the tongue..."

It's almost too simple to believe...but how we talk to ourselves and others is so important! Sometimes it's much easier to show mercy to others...and not ourselves! : )
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Old 04-01-2012, 04:31 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Hazelsmrf View Post
So do you think it is not enough for me to try to tell my brain that I am OK with not eating right now and that I'd eat later, or do I need to give it a more immediate reward?
I think figuring out the 'reward' that motivates our brains/subconscious/mind/inner self is a critical part of achieving happiness and success.

Julie, since you were able to read a book, make a change, and stop smoking; your reward may be complete by sending yourself a message. Someone else may need to redirect patterned thoughts a performing physical activity. A lot of JUDDD BUDDDs find telling themselves, "I will eat that tomorrow" is enough to redirect those habitual, inner thoughts.

As in all things, this is another opportunity for self-learning.

I totally agree with the positive thoughts/actions idea! I find, when someone asks 'how are you?' giving an upbeat & positive reply leads to having a positive & upbeat inner feeling.
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JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:49 AM   #35
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Oh indeed, please, continue your 'lecturing'.

I'm a long time user of EFT and it has helped me in quite a few instances.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:21 AM   #36
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EFT is not emdr lite--Like EMDR it is a somatic technique. Kind of "voo doo'ish" but seems very helpful with moving brain patterns around (e.g., out of the limbic system where emotion/eating/ yada--into the cortex where it can be thought about). I'd rather you learned some self tapping (tons of videos on utube) then blow money on some "brain program"

Reward is so individual. I think part of changing brain programs is really finding the individual reward that creates the new habit. I tell my patients that a lot of what we are all dealing with is "tolerating discomfort" of letting go of old brain networks and in the process finding new networks that are more efficient and feel better. The old programmes do not go away--they will always be there--however, the new ones will feel better and be more efficient.

As an example, If I made you crawl from your house to the car, you could do it. That old method of locomotion is still in your brain. However, it is easier on the knees, and so much more pleasurable to walk from your house to your car. The second you learned to walk, that programme was rewarded--it is fast, efficient, and gets you exactly what you want.

We are learning on JUDDD to tolerate short term discomfort for long-term pleasure.

A reward (in the tasty sense ;0) is only 24-36 hours away--there are other more immediate, subtle rewards. We find DD foods we like and that are "rewarding". We feel good about our abilities to tolerate discomfort

I've been on the JUDDD boards a long time (and not at goal. Part of the reason is that I travel many many times a year to conferences--other reasons as well as you all might imagine--but I am still almost 70 pounds lighter than once upon a time). One of the things I have seen from JUDDD'ers is that in addition to losing weight, other mental/emotional/spiritual/relational changes keep happening for them. IMHO this is because we are fine-tuning and practicing the Art of Tolerating Unpleasant Feelings. JUDDD is good for us neolithic peoples who have it too easy!
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:37 AM   #37
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Well I never!

What an amazing thread. Ouizoid, you are astounding in the depth of your knowledge and understanding. Thanks for all that input.

And thanks Hazel for starting this off. I happily have no real tendency to Binge, but I it sounds as if I need to download that onto my Kindle, for many reasons.
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:21 AM   #38
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Interesting thread! I'm a special ed teacher and Behavior Analyst, and I think about the intricacies of behavior a lot. As ouizoid said, reinforcement (reward) is critical when attempting to change behaviors. There are two kinds of behavioral learning: implicit and explicit. Implicit is what we learn from immediate consequences; it is the only kind of learning babies and animals are capable of. Explicit learning, which could also be called "rule-governed behavior," is learning from what someone tells us. If we do x, y will happen. Unfortunately, we believe that, as rational adults, most of our behavioral learning is explicit--we adjust our behavior because of consequences we know will happen, without actually having to experience those consequences. And sometimes--like in driving, where we typically follow laws even though we haven't experienced the consequences of breaking them--this works fine. In "adult problem behaviors," though--overeating, drinking, gambling, etc--we are governed by implicit learning. The immediate, natural reinforcing consequence of the behavior trumps the far-off, but bigger magnitude, punishing consequence. The reinforcement of smoking a cigarette trumps the possibility of lung cancer, and so on. The reinforcement of eating--remember, we are biologically programmed to find eating reinforcing--trumps the negative issues associated with obesity. And, as all behavior analysts know, it's very hard/sometimes impossible to change what reinforces someone! (Keep this in mind the next time someone tells you that kids "should" work for internal reinforcement and shouldn't get external reinforcers like stickers. Sure, it would be nice if they did--but not all kids get internally reinforced by following rules/complying/doing what they should. Some need external reinforcers, and if they need them, they should get them!). So, if we're trying to limit a reinforcing behavior like eating--we need to find another reinforcer! As ouizoid said, for some of us, shortening the time to our food reinforcer, as JUDDD does, can work. I know I can control my eating for the duration of the DD because I know the UD is coming soon. I can't control my eating for longer than that, because I simply don't have another reinforcer that's stronger than eating. (At times in the past, weight loss has been a stronger reinforcer than eating--but I can't seem to get back to that state. It's difficult to change reinforcers, but sometimes they change on their own!) I also agree with the poster who talked about building on the positive, and using positive self-talk.

Lots of interesting discussion...this stuff is fascinating!
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:45 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemming View Post
I can't control my eating for longer than that, because I simply don't have another reinforcer that's stronger than eating. (At times in the past, weight loss has been a stronger reinforcer than eating--but I can't seem to get back to that state. It's difficult to change reinforcers, but sometimes they change on their own!)
That's a really good way of wording that, It's something that applies to me for sure. Eating is my number one reward, I am not sure if I will be able to find something to replace that. Because really it's not at all like quitting smoking, sure I thought smoking would be impossible and so until I changed my thinking I wasn't able to stop the behavior... but I can't completely abstain from eating, so I can't just say "I will just not eat food and that will be ok". I will always have to eat food, so I need a different toolset to stop overeating.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:53 AM   #40
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Interestingly, I got nothing from Brain over Binge beyond confirmation that it all comes back to willpower. I'm not good at ignoring the urge to binge regardless of the source. Down Days are so much easier because I know I won't have to deal with food at all until dinner.

This is a fascinating discussion!
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:04 PM   #41
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Interestingly, I got nothing from Brain over Binge beyond confirmation that it all comes back to willpower.
That's not what I got from it at all, she had tried willpower alone in the past with no success. I mean, it is all in a way of thinking... but I had tried to quit smoking before by willpower alone and I was never successful. I don't consider the way I quit with Allan Carr's book to be willpower. There was no willpower needed. Instead it was more... changing my thought processes. Not telling myself that it would be too hard. Not dreading it. Not telling myself how much it would suck but that I'd just have to power through it. Really in the end, no willpower was needed. Not in the sense that I think most people use that word anyways.
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:25 PM   #42
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Yeah, the problem with willpower is that most of us can only resist reinforcers for so long--especially things that we have to continually expose ourselves to, like food. Maybe, for some people, food isn't as reinforcing and so they can just grit their teeth and fight the urge...not so for others of us! (And, given the success rate of most diets, I'd say that well over 90% of people are in the category of "food is just too big of a reinforcer.") As hazel said, we need to find a way to change our thought process to make it workable. The more we know about our brains' function, both physiologically and behaviorally, the better chance we have at finding something that works...
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Old 04-01-2012, 01:03 PM   #43
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I'm thinking about Ouizoid's post above--jiving with what I'm going through now (not just starting JUDDD, but I've been in therapy for some other stuff). We're doing EMDR some sessions to get over some past trauma. My therapist thought I'd be a good candidate, and the couple times we've done it, it's really helped.

What you said that resonated is "tolerating discomfort". That is EXACTLY my issue, and what I"m working on now, along with letting go of perfection and need to control everything.

I'm excited to see what comes up for me in the next while, the way it has for other JUDDDers

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Old 04-01-2012, 02:12 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Hazelsmrf View Post
That's not what I got from it at all, she had tried willpower alone in the past with no success. I mean, it is all in a way of thinking... but I had tried to quit smoking before by willpower alone and I was never successful. I don't consider the way I quit with Allan Carr's book to be willpower. There was no willpower needed. Instead it was more... changing my thought processes. Not telling myself that it would be too hard. Not dreading it. Not telling myself how much it would suck but that I'd just have to power through it. Really in the end, no willpower was needed. Not in the sense that I think most people use that word anyways.
I think of willpower as deciding "I will not eat (whatever) right now / today" and following through. It works well for me on down days when I say that I will have only coffee and water until 6-7pm. But I've failed several rounds of CBT in the past with different psychologists, so maybe my thought processes are particularly resistant to change!

I may read the book again and see if I get something new out of it.
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Old 04-01-2012, 04:12 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by cammie View Post
I think of willpower as deciding "I will not eat (whatever) right now / today" and following through.
Yes exactly, but she had many times said "I will not binge today" or "I will not binge this week" or "This is my LAST binge" and didn't follow through, what made it different when she finally stopped her binges? There was something more to it, an understanding that made it possible for her to actually stop.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:09 AM   #46
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I thought this blog post was interesting given this discussion--how we need reward to establish habit--exactly what I was saying--

Google: 2 Key Principles in Creating New Habits « Normal Eating Blog
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:24 AM   #47
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Thanks for this, interesting...I'm going to read the other two segments, too.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:28 AM   #48
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Thank you, I'll start at the first and read through them!
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:38 AM   #49
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Thank you so much Hazel for letting me find out about this book! I bought the ebook when I first read your post and have been hooked ever since.

It's made me realise that nobody is in control of my eating except me. If I want to lose/maintain my weight, its down to me, and all I need to do is stop overeating. It seems so simple now!
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:56 PM   #50
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Fellow brain-lovers, I've found a wonderful podcast called Inside Out Weight Loss:

google: personallifemedia podcasts 216-inside-out-weight-loss

I listened to episodes 00 and half of 01 today on my treadmill and I think this will be a great podcast to listen to, and there's certainly enough episodes to keep me busy on the treadmill for a while! 212 and counting! Anyways, I found it highly motivating, right now in the first podcast she's talking about setting up "away from" and "towards" motivators and the importance of using both together.

Anyways, hope it's useful to someone!

I also downloaded some episodes of the "Brain Science Podcast" and some "Psych Files" ones, I love this stuff.
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:01 PM   #51
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Just followed your link and absolutely agree with this. I was happy to see Beck's book mentioned too. I found it enlightening. Thank you for posting an in depth review and commentary!
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:31 PM   #52
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I'm number #52 so you prob won't see this but your post was fascinating and yes I read all of it. Thank you for taking the time to post it.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:09 PM   #53
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Woooo glad it was helpful It was a big breakthrough moment for me!
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:59 AM   #54
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I'm glad this popped up again! It should probably be bumped at least once a month!

Hazel: I again read every word of your first post and all the following posts. Very motivating as it was the first time I read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelsmrf View Post
That's a really good way of wording that, It's something that applies to me for sure. Eating is my number one reward, I am not sure if I will be able to find something to replace that. Because really it's not at all like quitting smoking, sure I thought smoking would be impossible and so until I changed my thinking I wasn't able to stop the behavior... but I can't completely abstain from eating, so I can't just say "I will just not eat food and that will be ok". I will always have to eat food, so I need a different toolset to stop overeating.
Just a thought that popped into my head when I was reading what you said about not being able to avoid food. You can't avoid all food, because we have to eat.

However, you can certainly avoid some kinds of food. I've heard and read testimonies from people who have lost huge amounts of weight. One guy used to hit a doughnut place and a fast food drive through quite frequently because he always drove by them on the way to and from work.

When he started a new WOE and started to lose, he found a different route so he would not see them and have that urge to stop. He avoided a weight gaining type food and trigger food.

On days when I want to stick to lean protein and non-starchy vegetables, I make sure I do not have any chips, chocolate or even a frozen pizza in the freezer! Especially if I'm going to be home all day!

I have taught myself that I can learn to avoid certain kinds of foods when I feel I need to.

Maybe this would be the same principle you used to quit smoking. You avoided drinking situations because that would make you crave smoking. You didn't have a pack of smokes on the shelf next to the cereal, unopened, just in case, waiting to tempt you, right?

There are certain aisles I completely avoid in the supermarket. In our market, they have now put all the chips and dips at the end of the produce aisle!! I always wondered if more stores would start doing that because all the nutrition experts keep advising shoppers to "shop the perimeter" 'cos that's where the healthy stuff is!

I have to get my fresh produce, then make a quick bee-line to the laundry detergent aisle which is next and then dairy at the end of that!!!

Cookies and chocolates are at the other end of the story where you can get frozen fish and fresh deli! What a mind game. I have to keep my back to the cookies at all times because there are certain ones that call my name!

Anyway, never apologize for writing a long post! We all loved it and still do!
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:57 AM   #55
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Interesting stuff! I just downloaded a "Brain Over Binge" sample onto my iPhone
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:20 AM   #56
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Yam-Yam, that was what I used to do. I just cut out foods. Just complete abstinence. Unfortunately I guess my will power is weak because that's what doesn't work too well for me. Sure it works great for a month, maybe two months... but then I'd eat something on the naughty list, and then I'd feel naughty. The guilt would make me eat more naughty list foods. So I had to learn to just... roll with it, accept all foods. I can keep in the back of my mind that I lose better on low carb foods, but I can't tell myself no nachos, no cookies... I can't not buy them at the grocery store because my husband is a complete carb addict, I mean he hides carbs behind his computer monitor, maybe thinking I can't see them from where I'm sitting? (I just looked, he has doughnuts there today). I guess for me, the key is to not feel deprived. Being ultra strict has never given me any long term success.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:33 AM   #57
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I just bought this book as well. The reviews looked great!
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