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Old 03-03-2012, 08:41 AM   #1
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Reducing UD cals

what are the rules about this? my UD cals is 2000 and my DDs about 400. i have no trouble with the DD but the UD is about 200 - 300 cals more than i really want to eat. what if i drop the UDs down to 1750 and the DDs to 350? would that still work?
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:07 AM   #2
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It will depend on your metabolism. Give it a try and if you stall, start adding 'em back in 50 or 100 cal increments.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:13 AM   #3
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I'm almost positive that it will still work. You can prove to yourself whether it will or it won't simply by doing it for a couple of weeks to prove it out.

The pros and cons of doing this are, apparently, several. Dr. Johnson states that if somebody doesn't feel/isn't able to eat their *Normal* calories on an Up Day (as given by the JUDDD Calorie Calculator) they don't have to, but I don't believe he addressed the issue of simply cutting your calories down and holding them there.

In real life people do have individual appetites. And those with small appetites rarely are the ones who end up on sites like this one designed to serve the overweight and obese. So, truthfully, some folks just really, really can't comfortably eat all of their UD calories. It helps if they can add an additional tablespoon of olive oil to their salad (119 calories) and snack on just 14 walnut halves over the course of the day (185 calories) and top some hot portion of their supper with a tablespoon of butter (102 calories). But, if they can't, that is up to them.

For some, JUDDD will still work just fine. Although sometimes a bit more slowly. And sometimes the rate of weight loss will still be just fine! For others, lowering their UD calories seems to slow their weight loss rather than allow it to continue, which seems to be counter-intuitive, but never-the-less, we see it happen often enough.

The good spread between UD and DD calories, and the pounding bounce that goes on between those two calorie amounts really does seem to be of benefit for the long haul.. for some interesting reason. Many of us have seen a marked improvement in our rate of metabolism by holding the Up Day calories as high as we are given while also holding to our DD numbers.

The one thing that is worrisome about lowering UD calories and holding to that lowered number is.. it makes JUDDD into somewhat more closely akin to a normal low-calorie-every-day type of diet. Of course, I realize that you are not lowering you UD cals that low. But the trouble with the low and lower calories every single day type of diet plans is that eventually as they progress, they seem to trigger our body to slow metabolism down. Low calorie intake slows metabolism. And most of us are slower than ideal already, else we wouldn't have gained enough poundage to have to be here in the first place.

And the worry about doing things to cause your metabolism to slow down even more than it already is going is.. what if you are one of the very real people who has trouble with getting it to run faster again? What if it's easier to slow it than it is to rev it back up again? As you progress in your life, there are so many causes for metabolism to slow, include simple aging. It's a shame if you encourage slow metabolism at a younger age, and then live to see it slowing even more from being older and wish it worked better for you!

If you decide to try lowering your UD calories, see how it goes for you. Most of the changes don't just happen overnight, so you can increase cals once again IF you find weight loss eventually slows down for you. Remember, many of the folks who have done HCG at 500 calories every single day for days and days on end are shocked and dismayed to see weight loss slow down markedly after awhile. It doesn't seem like weight loss could slow at that low number, but for some.. it certainly can.

Let us know how it goes. I wish you nothing but the best. I know you have been having trouble eating up to your UD number because of appetite suppression, so I understand where you are coming from here. I know you eat very low carb still.. right? And did you come here from doing HCG at all?
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:54 PM   #4
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"I know you have been having trouble eating up to your UD number because of appetite suppression, so I understand where you are coming from here. I know you eat very low carb still.. right? And did you come here from doing HCG at all?"

i dont have trouble eating them. i do it but i seem to be forcing the last 200 - 300 cals. and that JUDDD calculator gives me a lot more cals than any other calculator i have ever used. so that seems high to begin with. i did use hcg repeatedly during 2008 and 2009. but the rounds i did last year and this year the weight loss has been painfully slow. easy to do; to keep to rules but very slow losses. yes, i have been eating low carb for about a year. very, very low carb since 10 nov when i started the Kruse style leptin reset. i have continued that; a huge protein breakfast every day. over 50 g protein. including on DDs. that part is working well. thank you for your comments.
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasina838 View Post
"I know you have been having trouble eating up to your UD number because of appetite suppression, so I understand where you are coming from here. I know you eat very low carb still.. right? And did you come here from doing HCG at all?"

i dont have trouble eating them. i do it but i seem to be forcing the last 200 - 300 cals. and that JUDDD calculator gives me a lot more cals than any other calculator i have ever used. so that seems high to begin with. i did use hcg repeatedly during 2008 and 2009. but the rounds i did last year and this year the weight loss has been painfully slow. easy to do; to keep to rules but very slow losses. yes, i have been eating low carb for about a year. very, very low carb since 10 nov when i started the Kruse style leptin reset. i have continued that; a huge protein breakfast every day. over 50 g protein. including on DDs. that part is working well. thank you for your comments.
It IS a higher number than other calculators give! They give us our maintenance calorie number. JUDDD doesn't. It gives us our *Normal* Up Day calorie number. This is above our maintenance number in almost all cases!

I think we made a mistake here in the beginning of referring to our JUDDD Up Day number as a *maintenance* number... because that is incorrect and untrue, and I think it has confused folks.

So a maintenance number is what other calculators give us. The JUDDD calculator gives us more than only maintenance calories, but this higher number is being set against a lower-than-maintenance number..... even in our JUDDD maintenance time of life. It is designed this way so that we are forever cycling our calories up and down.

So, to put it another way, once we've lost the weight and reached our goal weight and are in maintenance, JUDDD has us eating at a higher-than-normal maintenance calorie number on our UDs, and a lower than maintenance number on our DDs. Even in maintenance, JUDDD still has us cycling higher calories with lower calories. And this is to keep our metabolism burning as beautifully as possible.

After doing rounds of HCG, a person's metabolism can be stimulated to come crashing down amazingly fast, and slowing weight loss far, far more than you could ever guess it could be slowed on so extremely few calories, but that is the horror of eating very few calories for an extended period of time. But as long as the metabolism can be stimulated to rise back up to a better burning speed after an HCG round is over, everything is fine again. Unless it isn't. Unless the metabolism gets broken, bit by bit.

So there is thought behind the JUDDD plan, science behind the design of higher and lower calories to get down to goal weight, and then science behind the design of higher-than-maintenance calories and lower-than-maintenance calories to stay at our goal weight.

That's why it makes me a little apprehensive when folks try to lower their UD calories with the thought of keeping on eating at that lowered number. To my way of thinking, it sort of goes against the design of the plan, and to mend a broken metabolism was one of the biggest benefits of doing JUDDD. Not saying that always happens right off the bat, but when you re-design JUDDD to your way of thinking, and just decide to cut your calories down because of what other plans have in their designs, you might, in fact, weaken one of the strengths of JUDDD.

Just a thought. I hope I explained this in a way that you were able to follow my train of thought. LOL

Last edited by SoHappy; 03-03-2012 at 04:38 PM..
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:40 AM   #6
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"I think we made a mistake here in the beginning of referring to our JUDDD Up Day number as a *maintenance* number... because that is incorrect and untrue, and I think it has confused folks."

Excellent point, Pat.

Dr J's website calculates UD calories slightly above BMR (mine calculate at 200 cals higher than BMR). Establishing UD calories at slightly above BMR ensures we don't drop below BMR - the caloric point where the body initiates stress response.

It also explains why the formula (DD cals + UD cals) / 2 works for most people.

Cool!

Last edited by gotsomeold; 03-04-2012 at 01:43 AM..
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:27 AM   #7
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thanks Pat, i wanted to know what more experienced JUDDD people thought. i can get in the higher cals if i have to. i better ramp up a little today since the day is more than half over. somehow i thought that if i ate less on the UDs and only 20% of whatever that was on the DDs i would still get that high/low swing we are looking for.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:29 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by gotsomeold View Post
"I think we made a mistake here in the beginning of referring to our JUDDD Up Day number as a *maintenance* number... because that is incorrect and untrue, and I think it has confused folks."

Excellent point, Pat.

Dr J's website calculates UD calories slightly above BMR (mine calculate at 200 cals higher than BMR). Establishing UD calories at slightly above BMR ensures we don't drop below BMR - the caloric point where the body initiates stress response.

It also explains why the formula (DD cals + UD cals) / 2 works for most people.

Cool!
DD + UD / 2 works for what?
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:38 AM   #9
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DD + UD / 2 works for what?
I think DD calories + UD calories and divide the total by 2 will tell you what you are consuming, on average, every day and it should, in the long run, create a calorie deficit which equals weight loss.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:47 AM   #10
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It also explains why even when we are at goal and are maintaining our weight loss, we eat MORE than our BMR on our UDs and UNDER our BMR on DDs, but the two added together and divided by two gives us, basically, the *daily* calorie number we need for our maintenance. But without us actually eating at that number every single day. We get to continue the higher/lower calorie cycle even when we are in maintenance, so get the health benefits and metabolic stimulation from eating that way.

People always wonder why they have a higher number on JUDDD than they do on the other calorie calculators, and this is why.
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:36 PM   #11
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OK, got it. thank you.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:48 AM   #12
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i went back and looked at the JUDDD calculator. i put in light exercise and it give me about 2030 cals for UDs. i do pilates and yoga 3 times a week. i am otherwise pretty sedentary since i cant walk well due to knee problems. there are people who would not consider pilates/yoga as exercise at all. if i recalculate for sedentary then i get 1771 cals which is still more than i used to eat in a day. but more in line with what i think would work for me. so my question is: do we know what kind of exercise is meant in the calculator? aerobics? weight lifting?
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:47 AM   #13
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i went back and looked at the JUDDD calculator. i put in light exercise and it give me about 2030 cals for UDs. i do pilates and yoga 3 times a week. i am otherwise pretty sedentary since i cant walk well due to knee problems. there are people who would not consider pilates/yoga as exercise at all. if i recalculate for sedentary then i get 1771 cals which is still more than i used to eat in a day. but more in line with what i think would work for me. so my question is: do we know what kind of exercise is meant in the calculator? aerobics? weight lifting?
Who are these people who don't consider yoga and pilates exercise? The classes I take are tough! I sweat like...well...I glow like a pig.

I think that if you do these classes 3 times/week, you will be fine at the 1771 calories. Especially if they are lighter classes. If you worked out 5-7 times/week, you might need to up your cals as needed because you will be hungrier.

I think the calculator is there to help us estimate, but is not an absolute. I work out 5-7 times/week, so I used the 1-3 days light exercise option because I was way too hungry at no exercise. I'd rather eat a few more calories and potentially lose slower (although who knows - metabolism is a funny thing). I get cranky when I'm hungry and don't want to feel like I'm on a diet. It really is a trial and error thing.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:31 AM   #14
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OK, thanks. i have no hunger at all. never have since i have been doing the leptin reset since 10Nov. so it has been hard to stuff in 2000 cals. but i want to follow the rules and give JUDDD a real chance. but that is a good tip; if i drop down to under 1800 and have hunger then i know to up it a little.

i never sweat at any of my stuff. i'm not even sure how anyone could sweat at yoga unless she were doing Bikram.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:57 AM   #15
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OK, thanks. i have no hunger at all. never have since i have been doing the leptin reset since 10Nov. so it has been hard to stuff in 2000 cals. but i want to follow the rules and give JUDDD a real chance. but that is a good tip; if i drop down to under 1800 and have hunger then i know to up it a little.

i never sweat at any of my stuff. i'm not even sure how anyone could sweat at yoga unless she were doing Bikram.
I do a yoga/pilated combo class and it's tough!
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:19 PM   #16
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From what I gather, *exercise* as it is used in figuring BMR is the kind that elevates heart rate and keeps it pounding at a sustained period of time.

And for any who need to know how to find their target exercise heart rate, here is a basic formula:


Richard Weil, MEd, CDE, recommends calculating your target heart rate with a formula called the "heart rate reserve" method. Use a watch with a second hand to keep track of how many times your heart beats per minute. You can feel your heartbeat at the underside of your wrist or along the side of your neck.

Here's how to use the formula:

* Determine your Maximum Heart Rate (MHR) by subtracting your age from 220.
* Then, subtract your resting heart rate (it's best to take this when you first wake up in the morning) from your Maximum Heart Rate to find your Heart Rate Reserve (HRR).
* Multiply your HRR by the percentage of your MHR at which you wish to train (60% to 85% is the usual range for people looking to increase fitness and health).
* Add your resting heart rate back to that result to get your target rate.

So, assuming an age of 27, a resting heart rate of 70 beats per minute, and a desired training range of 70%, the calculation would look like this:

220 - 27 = 193
193 - 70 = 123
123 x .70% = 86
86 + 70 = 156

Remember, this is an estimate, not an absolute. Also keep in mind that athletes may exceed the training zone, and even the maximum heart rate, during high-intensity training.


There's a big difference between exercise that tones up our muscles and exercise that burns up many calories when we do it.

Well, like the difference in how you do weight lifting, depending on whether the goal is to build more muscle mass, or whether the goal is to increase muscle strength, etc.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
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From what I gather, *exercise* as it is used in figuring BMR is the kind that elevates heart rate and keeps it pounding at a sustained period of time.

And for any who need to know how to find their target exercise heart rate, here is a basic formula:


Richard Weil, MEd, CDE, recommends calculating your target heart rate with a formula called the "heart rate reserve" method. Use a watch with a second hand to keep track of how many times your heart beats per minute. You can feel your heartbeat at the underside of your wrist or along the side of your neck.

Here's how to use the formula:

* Determine your Maximum Heart Rate (MHR) by subtracting your age from 220.
* Then, subtract your resting heart rate (it's best to take this when you first wake up in the morning) from your Maximum Heart Rate to find your Heart Rate Reserve (HRR).
* Multiply your HRR by the percentage of your MHR at which you wish to train (60% to 85% is the usual range for people looking to increase fitness and health).
* Add your resting heart rate back to that result to get your target rate.

So, assuming an age of 27, a resting heart rate of 70 beats per minute, and a desired training range of 70%, the calculation would look like this:

220 - 27 = 193
193 - 70 = 123
123 x .70% = 86
86 + 70 = 156

Remember, this is an estimate, not an absolute. Also keep in mind that athletes may exceed the training zone, and even the maximum heart rate, during high-intensity training.


There's a big difference between exercise that tones up our muscles and exercise that burns up many calories when we do it.

Well, like the difference in how you do weight lifting, depending on whether the goal is to build more muscle mass, or whether the goal is to increase muscle strength, etc.
I agree about the heart rate stuff and just want to point out that it doesn't take that much to raise your heart rate to be in "fat burning" mode - especially if you aren't an "athlete." Weight lifting can raise your heart rate, depending on how you do it. And then you get the added benefit of building muscle, which burns more calories during periods of rest. Plus, there are some workouts that combine cardio and light weights for toning/cardio and they are very effective at raising heart rate even though they aren't cardio intensive. Heck, as I've mentioned, I do a yoga/pilates class that I guarantee raises my heart rate. I also do ballet and you'd be surprised how much work it is to stand at the barre doing tendus while trying to look graceful. I guess I just want to point out that you don't have to run 3 miles to get your heart rate up and burn fat. I think many people have that misconception. Yes, most people can't walk at 2 mph and expect to raise their heart rate much, but bump it up to 3mph or 3.5 mph for 30 mins and that might be enough. It's individual. If I was only walking 30 mins, 3 times per week though, I wouldn't up my calorie intake. But, if I were walking at 4mph for 60 mins 3-4 times per week, I might. It depends on my hunger level. I'm one for "seeing how I feel" and if I've had a really hard workout (1 hr weights/1 hr zumba for example), I have no problem adding 150 -200 cals to my day...usually as protein/fat. Depends on my hunger level. I feel like my muscles need nourishment at that point. There is something to having an after workout snack.

Long explanation to say - it depends!
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:07 PM   #18
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I do a yoga/pilated combo class and it's tough!
i didnt say it wasnt tough. i said i dont sweat.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:13 AM   #19
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OK i just completed week 3. doing it as perfectly as possible 2000/400 cals. really had to stuff food on the UDs and i see Dr. Johnson says not to intentionally overeat. and i am up a little. first week down 6.8. week 2 up 1, week 3 up 1.8 so i plan to use the sedentary setting on the calculator and drop down to 1800/400 cals for this week. see how i do.
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Old 03-08-2012, 12:17 PM   #20
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Sounds like a plan!
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:21 PM   #21
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If you're gaining - then definitely tweak it!
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:39 PM   #22
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Good decision!!
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:42 PM   #23
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If you're gaining - then definitely tweak it!
If you haven't been eating at a higher carb level, and the weight gain can't be attributed to water weight regain from eating more carbs now, (which would be temporary), and the weight gain can't be attributed to an increase in exercise (with the associated water retention in muscle tissues, plus muscle increase), and you do actually believe this little weight increase is a gain of body FAT, then.. yes, that would call for bringing down your UD calories to see if that will solve the problem.

Good luck.
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Old 03-09-2012, 07:36 AM   #24
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I'm almost positive that it will still work. You can prove to yourself whether it will or it won't simply by doing it for a couple of weeks to prove it out.

The pros and cons of doing this are, apparently, several. Dr. Johnson states that if somebody doesn't feel/isn't able to eat their *Normal* calories on an Up Day (as given by the JUDDD Calorie Calculator) they don't have to, but I don't believe he addressed the issue of simply cutting your calories down and holding them there.

In real life people do have individual appetites. And those with small appetites rarely are the ones who end up on sites like this one designed to serve the overweight and obese. So, truthfully, some folks just really, really can't comfortably eat all of their UD calories. It helps if they can add an additional tablespoon of olive oil to their salad (119 calories) and snack on just 14 walnut halves over the course of the day (185 calories) and top some hot portion of their supper with a tablespoon of butter (102 calories). But, if they can't, that is up to them.

For some, JUDDD will still work just fine. Although sometimes a bit more slowly. And sometimes the rate of weight loss will still be just fine! For others, lowering their UD calories seems to slow their weight loss rather than allow it to continue, which seems to be counter-intuitive, but never-the-less, we see it happen often enough.

The good spread between UD and DD calories, and the pounding bounce that goes on between those two calorie amounts really does seem to be of benefit for the long haul.. for some interesting reason. Many of us have seen a marked improvement in our rate of metabolism by holding the Up Day calories as high as we are given while also holding to our DD numbers.

The one thing that is worrisome about lowering UD calories and holding to that lowered number is.. it makes JUDDD into somewhat more closely akin to a normal low-calorie-every-day type of diet. Of course, I realize that you are not lowering you UD cals that low. But the trouble with the low and lower calories every single day type of diet plans is that eventually as they progress, they seem to trigger our body to slow metabolism down. Low calorie intake slows metabolism. And most of us are slower than ideal already, else we wouldn't have gained enough poundage to have to be here in the first place.

And the worry about doing things to cause your metabolism to slow down even more than it already is going is.. what if you are one of the very real people who has trouble with getting it to run faster again? What if it's easier to slow it than it is to rev it back up again? As you progress in your life, there are so many causes for metabolism to slow, include simple aging. It's a shame if you encourage slow metabolism at a younger age, and then live to see it slowing even more from being older and wish it worked better for you!

If you decide to try lowering your UD calories, see how it goes for you. Most of the changes don't just happen overnight, so you can increase cals once again IF you find weight loss eventually slows down for you. Remember, many of the folks who have done HCG at 500 calories every single day for days and days on end are shocked and dismayed to see weight loss slow down markedly after awhile. It doesn't seem like weight loss could slow at that low number, but for some.. it certainly can.

Let us know how it goes. I wish you nothing but the best. I know you have been having trouble eating up to your UD number because of appetite suppression, so I understand where you are coming from here. I know you eat very low carb still.. right? And did you come here from doing HCG at all?
THANK YOU!!!!
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:53 AM   #25
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If you haven't been eating at a higher carb level, and the weight gain can't be attributed to water weight regain from eating more carbs now, (which would be temporary), and the weight gain can't be attributed to an increase in exercise (with the associated water retention in muscle tissues, plus muscle increase), and you do actually believe this little weight increase is a gain of body FAT, then.. yes, that would call for bringing down your UD calories to see if that will solve the problem.

Good luck.
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Old 03-10-2012, 02:50 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoHappy View Post
If you haven't been eating at a higher carb level, and the weight gain can't be attributed to water weight regain from eating more carbs now, (which would be temporary), and the weight gain can't be attributed to an increase in exercise (with the associated water retention in muscle tissues, plus muscle increase), and you do actually believe this little weight increase is a gain of body FAT, then.. yes, that would call for bringing down your UD calories to see if that will solve the problem.

Good luck.
thanks Pat, i am not worried about these small gains. not concerned that they are real fat; whatever that is. i was forcing food to try to stick to the JUDDD rules as closely as possible. i was not happy with it. the lower amount seems more comfortable. it is 1800 and that is about 200 more than the 1600 i stabilized with over the last year or so. i am also doing the Kruse leptin reset, strict paleo eating so no additional carbs; no additional exercise, etc. but i think picking the lower exercise level with the JUDDD calculator would have worked better for me. unfortunately i didnt see any such posts until after i had 2 bad weeks. i still like that JUDDD swing very much. find it very comfortable.
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:26 AM   #27
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OK i just finished week 4 of JUDDD. i did the lower cal level for my up days. about 1800 for a couple of days then i decided that my food intake just had to be enough for my body to know i was no longer restricting calories. so i then dropped to just under 1700 for the last couple of up days. i am happy to report that i am down 4.6 lbs for this week. that makes 8.2 for the month. so pretty good considering i had small gains for 2 weeks.

i have to say i really enjoyed the Johnson book. he comes across as someone who really understands the battle with fat that many of us have had for many years. and i think i can better understand the point of a lot of this stuff.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:21 AM   #28
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That is great news Thomasina!

Congratulations on finding your body's calorie range!
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:47 AM   #29
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That is great news Thomasina!

Congratulations on finding your body's calorie range!
AND on the great losses you are having!
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:54 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasina838 View Post
OK i just finished week 4 of JUDDD. i did the lower cal level for my up days. about 1800 for a couple of days then i decided that my food intake just had to be enough for my body to know i was no longer restricting calories. so i then dropped to just under 1700 for the last couple of up days. i am happy to report that i am down 4.6 lbs for this week. that makes 8.2 for the month. so pretty good considering i had small gains for 2 weeks.

i have to say i really enjoyed the Johnson book. he comes across as someone who really understands the battle with fat that many of us have had for many years. and i think i can better understand the point of a lot of this stuff.
Excellent!!! This is sooooooo great and such a helpful post. Love the line about our bodies needing just enough on UDs to know it's not starving.

I hope you will copy and paste this in on both Newbie threads. It will be so helpful for all!
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