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Old 02-28-2012, 04:05 AM   #1
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can not eating up to my calories on a UD cause a stall?

My UD calories are set at 1877, most UD I can barely get to 1500 I am just not that hungry. On my DD I stay between 350-450, I do try to keep my carbs to under 30-40 on a UD. I have been playing with the same pound for a week.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:21 AM   #2
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I wouldn't say definitely - however - if it happens all the time - then perhaps it could indeed cause a stall.

If you are not hungry - try to add higher fat versions of things to your diet on UD - ie Full Fat Milk/Yoghurt/ Butter/Cheese/Oil - these don't have 'volume' but can up your cals successfully.

You're looking for another 377 cals. One tablespoon of Olive Oil is 119. 100ml of Full Fat milk is 2 x the cals of skinny milk. Mayonnaise = 90 cals per tbsp etc

One of the problems with counting cals on your DD - is you get used to thinking about making the cals last - then on an UD - you continue to do the same.

Good luck!
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:43 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MintQ8 View Post
I wouldn't say definitely - however - if it happens all the time - then perhaps it could indeed cause a stall.

If you are not hungry - try to add higher fat versions of things to your diet on UD - ie Full Fat Milk/Yoghurt/ Butter/Cheese/Oil - these don't have 'volume' but can up your cals successfully.

You're looking for another 377 cals. One tablespoon of Olive Oil is 119. 100ml of Full Fat milk is 2 x the cals of skinny milk. Mayonnaise = 90 cals per tbsp etc

One of the problems with counting cals on your DD - is you get used to thinking about making the cals last - then on an UD - you continue to do the same.

Good luck!
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:07 AM   #4
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thanks for the ideas, I am going to try and up my calories today seeing as it is an up day.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:56 AM   #5
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I keep higher-fat stuff around for adding 100 calories here and there on UDs. Nuts and nut butters, cream cheese, brie or other high-fat cheeses, avocados and guacamole, pork rinds and sour cream, coconut bark, SF hot cocoa or tea with cream... all easy ways to add a bit more fat and calories.

My current favorite snack is a hard-cooked egg, peeled then warmed in the microwave, split in half and slathered with Kerrygold butter.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:15 AM   #6
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"can not eating up to my calories on a UD cause a stall?"

Oh yes. As Vicky says, especially if it happens frequently. On DD you establish the magic: caloric stress response in your body. If you don't eat enough to stop the stress response you sag right into low-cal diet starvation mode. Which (as most of us know ) is both unhealthy and frustrating.

WELCOME to the "how do I eat enough on UD????" club. You are not alone!!
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:04 AM   #7
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:51 AM   #8
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1500 is still medically starvation level, so yes it could definitely be a problem since you are trying to have starving down days and normal or feasting up days.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:20 PM   #9
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Excuse me, but where is this information coming from?

First of all, I personally contacted Dr. Johnson when I began JUDDD almost 3 years ago because the calculator number for my UDs was much too high to enable me to lose. I was already stalled on generic low carb, and I'd come to JUDDD as a way to seriously restrict calories, which was difficult on a daily basis. Cycling seemed ideal for my needs--to average no more than 1,000 cal daily.

At that time, Dr. J admitted that the UD number was a 'rough estimate' and a limit rather than a 'requirement.' He told me that the UD was intended to be an individual's maintenance level, and he knew that differed by person. The key number, according to him, was the DD calorie level.

Because I am post-menopausal and also hypothyroid, I began JUDDD (at 250 lbs) with 430 cal DDs [from the calculator] and 1400 cal UDs. I lost slowly but steadily until I achieved my current weight, eventually lowering my numbers to 370/1200 when I was about 180 lbs.

My endo was my 'cheerleader' throughout this process, approving the calorie level (and he told me that he had some patients who had to eat even less to lose because of medical issues). There is no way in the world that 1500 cal is considered 'starvation level' by anyone, certainly not anyone in the medical community. At my age (70) I have several doctors (specialists), and they have all approved my WOE--and noted how healthy I am as a result. Except for my thyroid meds, I take no other Rx, and that is exceptional for someone my age--and after a lifetime of morbid obesity.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:44 PM   #10
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Leo - whilst this may be the case for you (and I agree - I'm not sure what 'starvation' levels are - although I have seen books and been told by doctors and seen on telly {perhaps not the highest authority} that 1200-1500 is considered starvation) this is not the case for everyone.

Through 'our' experience, we do better when keeping our UD levels at the 'maintenance' numbers.

Interestingly as Dr J has as you say "... told me that the UD was intended to be an individual's maintenance level, and he knew that differed by person. The key number, according to him, was the DD calorie level."

I read this to mean that I should eat to satiety on an UD, which normally takes me around or a little over my 'maintenance' cals. If I stop losing - I will adjust! What is important is yes - the DD numbers - but he also states elsewhere that the UD is to stop you feeling deprived (to paraphrase).

If the OP was managing to lose weight successfully at 500/1500 - I would cheer her on - however, she came asking for advice - and everyone's advice is valid.

I'm not trying to start a we think/you think war here - but it's okay to agree that different things work for different people and all suggestions are welcome - particularly when none of them step outside the realms of the JUDDD process.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:12 PM   #11
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Vicky- I was trying to offer an alternative view from 3 years experience and losing over 100 lbs with JUDDD--experience that is unmatched by anyone currently on this board.

I never said that anyone should NOT eat to maintenance level on UDs. My point is that the 'calculator number' is not always an individual's maintenance level, and is not a 'magic number' that a person must eat 'up to' in order to lose.

I rarely post my own calorie level because it is unique to me (my endo believes that in addition to other issues, I have a 'genetically slow metabolism'). I had to determine my own level for loss through personal experience. When I was 300+, a nutritionist told me that I should eat at 1800 cal a day to lose, but I was only losing a pound a week on 1400 cal. I took her advice, raised my calories, and gained quickly.

My point is that for effective weight management, each individual must learn his/her own caloric needs and eat accordingly. All online calculators are flawed and give, at best, an approximation.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:03 PM   #12
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Leo - whilst this may be the case for you (and I agree - I'm not sure what 'starvation' levels are - although I have seen books and been told by doctors and seen on telly {perhaps not the highest authority} that 1200-1500 is considered starvation) this is not the case for everyone.

Through 'our' experience, we do better when keeping our UD levels at the 'maintenance' numbers.

Interestingly as Dr J has as you say "... told me that the UD was intended to be an individual's maintenance level, and he knew that differed by person. The key number, according to him, was the DD calorie level."

I read this to mean that I should eat to satiety on an UD, which normally takes me around or a little over my 'maintenance' cals. If I stop losing - I will adjust! What is important is yes - the DD numbers - but he also states elsewhere that the UD is to stop you feeling deprived (to paraphrase).

If the OP was managing to lose weight successfully at 500/1500 - I would cheer her on - however, she came asking for advice - and everyone's advice is valid.

I'm not trying to start a we think/you think war here - but it's okay to agree that different things work for different people and all suggestions are welcome - particularly when none of them step outside the realms of the JUDDD process.

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Old 02-28-2012, 07:26 PM   #13
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OP, if you're thinking of upping your cals, try to add some nuts, very calorie dense and not too high in carbs! The avocado is a good choice too!
Good Luck!
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:14 PM   #14
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I never said that anyone should NOT eat to maintenance level on UDs. My point is that the 'calculator number' is not always an individual's maintenance level, and is not a 'magic number' that a person must eat 'up to' in order to lose.
I agree with you Leo. I myself get numbers varying by over 400 calories on what my maintenance level should be, depending on which equation I use. 400 calories, that's a lot if you're overestimating by 400! But as I've not had any issues losing, I will still eat up to the number that I feel is slightly inflated, but I also have no issues ending my day 400-500 calories below that because I feel this is still in the range of numbers the different equations give me. I must admit that I don't believe in starvation mode though, I like the up days because they keep me from bingeing so that's the reason I eat up my calories there, just for mental reasons.
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:46 PM   #15
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I read the book and tried very low calorie DD's and did not lose. I started losing again when I raised the DD calories back up to 500. I did induction with 500 calories in shakes. I just knew I would lose faster eating 200-300 calories on DD's but not so. I really believe everyone is unique and has to find what works for them. The book says the UD calories are just to find the DD levels. Mine numbers are 350/1750 but I am now eating 500/1700-1800 and have started losing again.
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Old 02-28-2012, 09:11 PM   #16
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this is a great tool for determine what YOUR maintenance level is

the best method of JUDDDing is to restrict calories on DD's which for some is complete fasting, some it is 300 calories, some it is 500 and some up to 700-800

then keeping your UD at maintenance or just above gives you the best results because it is the overall weekly average of the calorie deficit created by the DD's and the fact that your body feels comfortable that you are not starving it that it is ok to give the extra weight away.

What someone who is 5'2 needs for maintenance calories is going to be different then someone who is 5'10" as well as it differs from someone in their thirties versus someone older and/or younger.

As well as what many of us have done from years of yo-yo diets.

JUDDD helped reset my bodies metabolism after I spent over 20 years screwing it up.

So my suggestion is to go to some of the many calorie calculators out there and figure out what your maintenance calories are and then go from there. Keep track and try to find out what your magic JUDDD numbers are.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:09 AM   #17
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I got interested in this question last September when several people stalled and only started losing again when they upped their calories. That was startling so I did some research and found references to the same thing happening in every 'diet'.

Recently I went hunting for an explanation of 'starvation mode' in weight loss. And found metabolism is completely weird. There is no agreement on what that caloric intake is (anything from half the body's BMR, or half the RMR, or some calorie level ranging from 1200 down).

But, there was something close to agreement on what happens: the body loses some weight, then metabolism slows, weight loss stalls for a time while the body cannibalizes muscle and fat, then weight loss resumes but the body's health can be severely impacted.

3kids' description of what was happening sounded like that. So, there is a chance upping her UD calories may break the progression from stress response on DD to slowed metabolism.

Leo41, you must have a genetically slow metabolism to be able to regain health and lose weight at such low intake levels! Your Endo (and you) must have been so relieved when JUDDD started working for you. Getting into the stress response and not going beyond was a terribly delicate balancing act. Total congratulations!
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JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MintQ8 View Post
Leo - whilst this may be the case for you (and I agree - I'm not sure what 'starvation' levels are - although I have seen books and been told by doctors and seen on telly {perhaps not the highest authority} that 1200-1500 is considered starvation) this is not the case for everyone.

Through 'our' experience, we do better when keeping our UD levels at the 'maintenance' numbers.

Interestingly as Dr J has as you say "... told me that the UD was intended to be an individual's maintenance level, and he knew that differed by person. The key number, according to him, was the DD calorie level."

I read this to mean that I should eat to satiety on an UD, which normally takes me around or a little over my 'maintenance' cals. If I stop losing - I will adjust! What is important is yes - the DD numbers - but he also states elsewhere that the UD is to stop you feeling deprived (to paraphrase).

If the OP was managing to lose weight successfully at 500/1500 - I would cheer her on - however, she came asking for advice - and everyone's advice is valid.

I'm not trying to start a we think/you think war here - but it's okay to agree that different things work for different people and all suggestions are welcome - particularly when none of them step outside the realms of the JUDDD process.
thank you for posting this. i am struggling with how high i have to go on the UDs. it seems i can do less than the calculator by about 200 - 250 cals and still be high enough to get the swing between it and 400 cals. i am new to JUDDD and want to do everything right.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:34 PM   #19
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thank you for posting this. i am struggling with how high i have to go on the UDs. it seems i can do less than the calculator by about 200 - 250 cals and still be high enough to get the swing between it and 400 cals. i am new to JUDDD and want to do everything right.
I understand what you are saying here but "doing everything right" has to be what is right for you and really what will make our JUDDD plan work the best. Many have found (me included ) that keeping very close to those UD calories actually helps the weight to move at a faster pace. This may not be true for you and the only way to figure what is right for you is to do what YOU think may be the right formula.

BUT, if you are not losing very well, not losing at all and seem to be stalled, and you are eating 200/300/400 calories less than what is suggested I would suggest you try to get closer to your UD calories and see what happens. If all is well with these lesser number, leave well enough alone, in my opinion.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:26 AM   #20
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My personal experience is: Yes!
I *can* eat around 200 calories below and not stall out, but if I go much below that consistently, I do stall.
So I stay around 1800-1900 cals on UP days to lose. Some days even more if it's a weekend and we're out running around lol.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:53 PM   #21
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:31 AM   #22
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Since this is an interesting read for us noobs, I'm thread-bumping! This is a concern and important information.

Eating my own LC plan, I did not count calories, only carbs, though I tend to calorie restrict as well. So when I try to think of eating fewer calories on a DD, I really have to THINK about it because I include so many high fat foods. And then I turn around and say, okay, it's my UD, so how close can I get without feeling sick from so much food?

My UD yesterday was a b'fast protein shake, broccoli raisin salad from the deli, and two eggs scram w/butter & sharp cheddar. Plus coffee w/cream. I think I might have come in around 1500-1700 calories against my calculated need of 2000-ish. But I felt SO full - I mean, I ate almost 3/4 pound of broccoli!!!
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:50 AM   #23
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I am experimenting with this. Have struggled to get my UD in and worked way more than I should to stay on a plan such as this! So I am experimenting with my UD and eating to satisfaction, instead of eating to UD Cal. I used to throw a couple of glasses of wine in and I discovered that it was not the healthiest way either. So, will report back with my findings at the end of July!
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:56 AM   #24
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Well i my self have chose to eat to full, due to "full" is like 500 caloires less than what my calculator number is.. I no longer count on UDs due to i am losing , have not stalled, and i like the pace in which i am losing being closer to goal by like 15pounds, I found that i almost needed to lose slower so i could get my body to catch up with my wiehgt loss and not look funny.. I hated looking all saggy and felt for me,, that it was time to slow that process down a bit and work on toning up what i have lost.. IMO this works so much better at one pound loss per week to week and half, good luck folks,, and hope you all find what works best for you own body and lifestyle, and WOW to LEo a lifer in the JUDDD way~
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:38 AM   #25
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Well i my self have chose to eat to full, due to "full" is like 500 caloires less than what my calculator number is.. I no longer count on UDs due to i am losing , have not stalled, and i like the pace in which i am losing being closer to goal by like 15pounds, I found that i almost needed to lose slower so i could get my body to catch up with my wiehgt loss and not look funny.. I hated looking all saggy and felt for me,, that it was time to slow that process down a bit and work on toning up what i have lost.. IMO this works so much better at one pound loss per week to week and half, good luck folks,, and hope you all find what works best for you own body and lifestyle, and WOW to LEo a lifer in the JUDDD way~
OMG! I missed your ticker! You are doing swell sister! Love to know this!
Yes, I am only about 200 cals below but my sated point is definitely about 300 and I eat just a bit more.
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:43 AM   #26
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OMG! I missed your ticker! You are doing swell sister! Love to know this!
Yes, I am only about 200 cals below but my sated point is definitely about 300 and I eat just a bit more.
I love being a turtle in this journey~ I need to do whats best for me.. and this way of doing JUDDD IS whats bestI have been super busy of late at work here.. so i do get on to read.. but dont post as much as i used too... But i am still here and still loving JUDDD. And all my JUDDD BUDDDS
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:50 AM   #27
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Every time I see a post about it being difficult to eat "up to" UD calories, I am just amazed...cannot imagine it! When I have a good UD (1600), I always eat all my calories and would love to just eat everything I want.

Adillenal, I'm like you...I've tried to go way below my 500 calorie DDs and it didn't do anything for me, so now I just go with the 500 calories and enjoy every one of them!
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:53 AM   #28
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I had to go lower than my figure in the calculator for UDs to loss at a decent rate. Now I just do the best I can on UDs. If I'm hungry I eat, but stay low carb and most UDs have been low 1000s as a result. My DDs tend to be 500 -700 depending on life's ups and downs. I always found it hard to go lower than 500.

So the contrast between the days is only around 500 calories. Still working for me.
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:56 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by shirlc View Post
Every time I see a post about it being difficult to eat "up to" UD calories, I am just amazed...cannot imagine it! When I have a good UD (1600), I always eat all my calories and would love to just eat everything I want.
Ditto. I could eat 3000 calories a day without trying hard so I am always confused about not being able to eat 1600 or 1700 calories. Wish I had that problem and maybe I would be losing faster than I am. No complaints though. Slow and steady is good.

Just bought salad dressing (Ken's Buttermilk something or other). Was sure surprised at the serving size being 160 calories. YIKES!! I can make a salad the highest calorie meal of the day since I LOVE the dressing more than the salad.
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Old 06-19-2012, 11:11 AM   #30
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Start Date: JUDDD 1/1/12 + LCHF 12/1/13 (controlling diabetes)
As near as I can figure, back when I stalled myself, I was eating under 500 cals on DD and under/around 1000 cals on UD. And I did it for a long time before I noticed I was not cleaning my plate by eating the food on it

Since then, I have tried to pay careful attention both to what I am eating and when I eat it. Experiments have led me to decide I need to eat UDs this way:

1) By the end of UD, I need to have eaten more than 1100 cals. The website says 1562. I am currently experimenting with my RMR, 1278 + 200 = 1478ish cals. That is working fine (I am losing weight and keeping NSVs). I plan to drop that gradually down to RMR and see if I stall somewhere on the trip down.

2) I rarely eat breakfast (except 40 cals of hwc in coffee). On UD I need to eat at least 500 cals by noon. I was waiting and eating a big dinner. But, even though I was getting my UD cals, my weight loss stalled and I lost NSVs. Apparently, for me, the roughly 48 hours of DD eating was too long. A small meal at lunch does not break caloric stress response/famine response for me. I need a sizable (500 cal) lunch to up my metabolism.

This pattern is not everybody. It is just me (and, I got so interested in experimenting I stalled my weight loss playing with how much and when I ate ).

I am sharing this info in case it gives anyone else ideas. But if you are eating to a different pattern or amounts and losing weight and gaining NSVs, then that just proves our metabolisms are all different.
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