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Old 02-06-2012, 08:22 AM   #1
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What is mudd

keep seeing it mentioned but have no clue will someone explain
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:24 AM   #2
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Check this thread:
24hrUD/24hrDD experiment
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:54 AM   #3
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well all I wanted was a short explanation not a long thread haha still confused
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:02 AM   #4
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Pirate Jenny, who responded to you first, is the one who came up with "MUDDD" as we call it, as an alternate way to cycle calories. It has a shorter number of fasting hours - 24 hrs as opposed to JUDDD's 36 (approx.) hours.

You have UD and DD eating as a part of each day. A quick example is having a DD at breakfast & lunch, then starting UD eating that evening at dinner. Your UD continues for b'fast and lunch the next day, and then you start DD eating that evening, and it continues to b'fast and lunch the next day. So on and so forth...

It is a great alternative for those times your schedule needs the flexibility this provides, or as a way to make maintenance even breezier, or some choose to follow it for WL.

I have followed MUDDD off and on since late October. Sometimes MUDDDg for a while, then going back to regular JUDDD, and combining other types of intermittent fasting. Lately I have been strictly JUDDDg but doing 2 FDs on the weekends.

If you read through that thread Jenny posted, you will learn everything you could want to know about MUDDDg - it's worth a read.
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MAINTENANCE since 11/12/11, & have lost more weight. I shake things up all the time with my version of Pirate Jenny's MUDDD, my "Fast 5" & other IF. ...low-moderate fat....and eating "healthy" foods 75+% of the time which lets me have real life and indulgences too I've reached my goals, improved my health & appearance, and enjoy my lifetime woe!

Last edited by sophiethecat; 02-06-2012 at 09:28 AM..
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:23 AM   #5
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Although it is possible to get a 30-31 hour fast if you cut off your UD eating with lunch that day, don't eat anything till dinner and then make it a dd dinner. Next day, continue your dd eating until dinner that evening, when it will be an UD dinner.

Assuming you finish your UD lunch at 1pm, and then don't have the next UD dinner until about 7, you'd have a 30 hour window of DD eating. Which isn't really that far off from regular JUDDD.

b--UD
l--UD (finish by 1pm)
d--DD

b--DD
l--DD
d--UD (eat at 7pm)

Can you tell I've been thinking about this? LOL I like the idea of it for maintenance. Not ready to switch over yet. I want to make sure sirt-1 is good and active first.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:26 PM   #6
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[QUOTE=Can you tell I've been thinking about this? LOL I like the idea of it for maintenance. Not ready to switch over yet. I want to make sure sirt-1 is good and active first.[/QUOTE]

One question I have, how do you know that Sirt-1 is good and active??? I have been searching the forum and can't figure that one out. Is this when you are losing at a consistent rate? 1-2 lbs per week. Or maintaining at your goal weight?
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidsteacher View Post
b--UD
l--UD (finish by 1pm)
d--DD

b--DD
l--DD
d--UD (eat at 7pm)

Can you tell I've been thinking about this? LOL I like the idea of it for maintenance. Not ready to switch over yet. I want to make sure sirt-1 is good and active first.
I am thinking this may also be a great idea for the days that I can't stay on my rotation, either to a special event or not able to get my up day in because of work demands.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:50 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by sunday View Post
One question I have, how do you know that Sirt-1 is good and active??? I have been searching the forum and can't figure that one out. Is this when you are losing at a consistent rate? 1-2 lbs per week. Or maintaining at your goal weight?
No, losing at a consistent rate doesn't have much to do with it. You can lose at a consistent rate on lots of diets that don't have a true fasting component to them at all.

I have absolutely never read anything that tells us whether we can determine this for ourselves at all. Our ability to lose weight isn't any particular reflection of this at all. You can lose weight quite well by reducing calories to appropriate numbers, even doing a bit of cycling of the numbers from day to day, without doing any real fasting, any particularly low- calorie days, and without activating this SIRT1 gene at all. Just not eating overnight doesn't really qualify as a fast relative to this, as far as I know. I mean, most folks don't eat overnight, and sleep instead. LOL And if you are not fasting exceedingly low during some of your days on a regular basis, I don't truly think you will awaken this gene. I think you can lose weight efficiently enough. Very well, in fact. I just don't think you will have activated this SIRT1 action. But that's just from what I've read...

So having lost weight at a decent rate doesn't tell you anything. It seems to be activated by actual fasting. As in... fasting. If you wake up Tuesday morning and spend that day eating about the same as you did on Monday and will on Wednesday, a bit more, a bit less, I doubt you will be triggering this thing. Basically, most every calorie-based reduction diet has you reducing the numbers of calories in one way or another, to one level or another, and many of them have some cycling going on, or you're skipping breakfast or doing a light breakfast and then eating heavier during another part of the day, or whatever. But I really doubt that triggers SIRT1.

From the studies I've looked over, the fasting seems to be the key, and that is more than just not eating overnight.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidsteacher View Post
Although it is possible to get a 30-31 hour fast if you cut off your UD eating with lunch that day, don't eat anything till dinner and then make it a dd dinner. Next day, continue your dd eating until dinner that evening, when it will be an UD dinner.

Assuming you finish your UD lunch at 1pm, and then don't have the next UD dinner until about 7, you'd have a 30 hour window of DD eating. Which isn't really that far off from regular JUDDD.

b--UD
l--UD (finish by 1pm)
d--DD

b--DD
l--DD
d--UD (eat at 7pm)

Can you tell I've been thinking about this? LOL I like the idea of it for maintenance. Not ready to switch over yet. I want to make sure sirt-1 is good and active first.
Right, each period of eating isn't right at 24 hours necessarily... there are several hours between cut-off of UD eating to DD eating where you allow for digestion of UD eating, for example. I usually say "24 hr days" to simplify it in my posts, but really, there is a lot to say about it, and variations one can put on it. I was doing an even easier IF variation of it during the holidays, and I think I talked about it some in the MUDDD threads.

We can always discuss it further on either thread below, if you like.

PJ's *Muddd'ing*
24hrUD/24hrDD experiment

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Old 02-06-2012, 12:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidsteacher View Post
Although it is possible to get a 30-31 hour fast if you cut off your UD eating with lunch that day, don't eat anything till dinner and then make it a dd dinner. Next day, continue your dd eating until dinner that evening, when it will be an UD dinner.

Assuming you finish your UD lunch at 1pm, and then don't have the next UD dinner until about 7, you'd have a 30 hour window of DD eating. Which isn't really that far off from regular JUDDD.

b--UD
l--UD (finish by 1pm)
d--DD

b--DD
l--DD
d--UD (eat at 7pm)

Can you tell I've been thinking about this? LOL I like the idea of it for maintenance. Not ready to switch over yet. I want to make sure sirt-1 is good and active first.
This will be a way that every day you will get to eat quite a few calories without ever having to go for very many hours without food. I do believe that some people (many people) prefer the general calorie reduction weight loss plans and can vary their calories a few hundred from day to day, but don't want to ever have to actually fast. I just don't think that a lot of people really are *into* fasting. So not eating for a few hours is sort of what they are after. But not that *not eating for a lot of hours*..

I think often folks come to JUDDD still a bit unaware of that part of the plan. So although most of us at LCF are after weight loss, there are a lot of plans and variations of plans that can give them the loss without them being on this plan. Since the FAST is sort of central to this plan, sometimes it doesn't turn out that this is the plan for them after all.

Last edited by SoHappy; 02-06-2012 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
One question I have, how do you know that Sirt-1 is good and active??? I have been searching the forum and can't figure that one out. Is this when you are losing at a consistent rate? 1-2 lbs per week. Or maintaining at your goal weight?
I'm not sure we can "tell" 100% other than many of us go by how we start feeling.

For me, it was 2 - 3 weeks into regular JUDDD when I started noticing that I felt different on the DDs - focused, more energetic, just kind of felt good physically and mentally.

I stopped suffering with allergies on my DDs, and my sinuses and everything felt clear and refreshed. After maybe another month, I also stopped needing my allergy med on UDs too.

Appetite suppression seemed to kick in or get stronger, in that the majority of the DDs were no longer so hard to get through since the extreme hunger just wasn't there (certain time in the cycle is another story though!) This wasn't consistent for me until about 3 months in, but that may have been due to other factors too (such as the holiday eating that was going on, for one).

I started becoming calmer, more positive & happy overall as the weeks/months on JUDDD rolled by.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:16 PM   #12
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I'm glad someone asked this question as I was wondering too!

Next week is going to be really hard. I will be gone Tues. from late morning until Thursday afternoon. Then gone again Fri. a.m. until Saturday early evening. I will be at a couple functions where food will be served. And I want to be able to eat what is served. I know it's not quite the right pattern but do you think this will work and at least keep me from gaining as long as I eat sensibly?

M - DD all day
T - DD until dinner, UP dinner (unavoidable)
W - UP all day (unavoidable)
Th - UP breakfast only (might be able to waver on this but would rather not)
Fri - DD until dinner, UP dinner (dinner is unavoidable)
Sat - UP breakfast & lunch, DD dinner (UPs unavoidable)
Sun - DD all day
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:33 PM   #13
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Pat, I understand what you are saying, but I just don't see how our bodies care if the "fast" happens from 8pm on Day 1 until 8am on Day 3 (36 hours), or if it happens from 1pm on day 1 till 7pm the next day (30 hours). Other than being shorter by 6 hours (and I've seen discussion that the 36 hours may not be a magic number), you are still limiting your calories to <500 during that time period.

Now if there's some benefit to fasting while you are sleeping, then you do get 2 nights in on the first way, and you have more daytime/awake hours to get through the second way, so it may actually be slightly harder.

And if those 6 hours are key, then I agree it is sub-par. But if a 30 hour fast can be beneficial, I just wonder if it matters what time of the day that it happens?

Note, I am not suggesting this for the weight loss period at all. I'm only considering it as a possibility for maintenance, and only then when I am firmly established at my goal weight. (and maybe I'm only considering options since JUDDD as written seems to be not working for me as it appears to for most others, so I'm grasping at straws). LOL

As to knowing when sirt-1 is on--I think I was just going by how others have described they feel--less hunger/cravings, more focused/alert, less pain from inflammation, etc. So far, I have a little of that, but not sure it's very dramatic. But then my previous woe had provided a lot of that as well.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidsteacher View Post
Pat, I understand what you are saying, but I just don't see how our bodies care if the "fast" happens from 8pm on Day 1 until 8am on Day 3 (36 hours), or if it happens from 1pm on day 1 till 7pm the next day (30 hours). Other than being shorter by 6 hours (and I've seen discussion that the 36 hours may not be a magic number), you are still limiting your calories to <500 during that time period.

Now if there's some benefit to fasting while you are sleeping, then you do get 2 nights in on the first way, and you have more daytime/awake hours to get through the second way, so it may actually be slightly harder.

And if those 6 hours are key, then I agree it is sub-par. But if a 30 hour fast can be beneficial, I just wonder if it matters what time of the day that it happens?

Note, I am not suggesting this for the weight loss period at all. I'm only considering it as a possibility for maintenance, and only then when I am firmly established at my goal weight. (and maybe I'm only considering options since JUDDD as written seems to be not working for me as it appears to for most others, so I'm grasping at straws). LOL

As to knowing when sirt-1 is on--I think I was just going by how others have described they feel--less hunger/cravings, more focused/alert, less pain from inflammation, etc. So far, I have a little of that, but not sure it's very dramatic. But then my previous woe had provided a lot of that as well.
I have combined different IF with JUDDD or MUDDD at times during maintenance. I never "felt" any decrease in the good effects of JUDDD while MUDDDg, but I thought just in case MUDDD wasn't going to give me the full health effect of JUDDD, I could "boost" it with the IF period that I talk about below. I would do it each day, or at least every other day, no matter if it was an UD or DD. So it was like a "mini-DD" each day.

I started counting the fast as the time I stopped eating the night before (let's say 10 p.m.) until I broke the fast with a big, UD style meal. So if I stopped eating at 10 p.m. one night, then by the next day at noon and as the afternoon goes on, I felt the "good feelings" just like from a DD. And that was even if I ate low calories during that time - it didn't have to be a 0 cal fasting period. It could be smallish meals spread out, though I did try to save the bulk of the calories until I broke the "fast" with a large or heavy meal.

But I don't know if this worked well for me because I'd already been doing regular JUDDD for a while and the health effects had built up? It seems like it would work for everyone, but perhaps it would take more time for the health effects to build up if one started this way because it is much less "drastic" than regular JUDDD... ?

Anyway, as the day went on, I then had a large, high calorie or heavy meal (something like meatloaf, mashed potatoes, etc.) it seemed to dampen a lot of the "DD feeling" I had from the DD part of the day. I would go on with UD eating at that meal...

Some who practice shorter IF (like on the Leangains site) say one can get benefits from 12 - 20 hours fasting. If I go by "feeling" again, I can feel a difference when I'm 12 - 14 hours into the fast (can't say a definite time for sure), but especially beyond those hours as the fasting period goes on.

I don't know if that's all that clear, lol, but I wanted to submit my experience.

So, I just do a little bit of everything in maintenance, though for the last few weeks I have been doing regular JUDDD UD/DD rotation (FD instead of UD) with 2 back-to-back FDs on the weekend.

Whew, I feel like I confused people, but I hope not. I am doing this as part of my maintenance, so I do some pretty whack things to shake things up and to keep up with whatever is going on in my life at the moment.

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Old 02-06-2012, 02:10 PM   #15
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Pat, I understand what you are saying, but I just don't see how our bodies care if the "fast" happens from 8pm on Day 1 until 8am on Day 3 (36 hours), or if it happens from 1pm on day 1 till 7pm the next day (30 hours). Other than being shorter by 6 hours (and I've seen discussion that the 36 hours may not be a magic number), you are still limiting your calories to <500 during that time period.

Now if there's some benefit to fasting while you are sleeping, then you do get 2 nights in on the first way, and you have more daytime/awake hours to get through the second way, so it may actually be slightly harder.

And if those 6 hours are key, then I agree it is sub-par. But if a 30 hour fast can be beneficial, I just wonder if it matters what time of the day that it happens?

Note, I am not suggesting this for the weight loss period at all. I'm only considering it as a possibility for maintenance, and only then when I am firmly established at my goal weight. (and maybe I'm only considering options since JUDDD as written seems to be not working for me as it appears to for most others, so I'm grasping at straws). LOL

As to knowing when sirt-1 is on--I think I was just going by how others have described they feel--less hunger/cravings, more focused/alert, less pain from inflammation, etc. So far, I have a little of that, but not sure it's very dramatic. But then my previous woe had provided a lot of that as well.
I also doubt if our bodies care what the hours on the clock say as to the hours we hold to a fast. Only that the fast is ongoing and sustained for a long enough period. So if the "fast" happens from 8pm on Day 1 until 8am on Day 3 (36 hours) on 500 calories, I think that would certainly qualify sufficiently as a fast. You are going completely through Day 2, presumably on your 500 or fewer calories. Am I understanding correctly here?

I guess one of the confusions is that a fast really doesn't get started until we have used up the food we consumed at our last meal. And that can be up to 24 hours since our last meal easily enough.

I am pretty skeptical of your example of the little 30-hour spread as being effectively a *fast* as far as the actual benefits to our health that fasting triggers. Truly, I don't think it will do what the JUDDD fast is supposed to do over the long haul with this plan. But, I am very much after the benefits of fasting here. So just not eating much over a shorter period of hours will be very welcome to many/most others who didn't come to JUDDD in search of a fasting plan for long term health benefits from fasting.

But I think a normal calorie rotation plan would work just as well for them, like the Zig Zag diet plan, which has varying calorie amounts over the days, from lower numbers to higher numbers, but there is NO day that has you fasting on a mere 500 (approx.) calories from waking to sleeping on any day. I actually think that diet plan might be what many are after a lot more than the JUDDD plan.

But, I'm certainly not an expert here. I've read studies for quite a few years. I believe in it. I'm willing to actually fast. But to me, that means not eating/eating little for those extended hours, rather than adjusting in some manner so that the hours are shortened in order to cut the fast short.

But I think weight loss should be just as good either way when it comes to the calories. I just don't think the benefit of the fast will remotely be the same. JMO LOLOL
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:44 PM   #16
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Thanks for your thoughts. I like the back and forth because it refines my thoughts.

The first example (8pm day 1 till 8am day 3--36 hours) is what we get from doing JUDDD as written ( assuming you are done with your UD dinner by 8pm and don't eat an UD breakfast until 8 am on Day 3--day 2 being a DD).

The 30 hours would be doing it MUDDD style IF you stopped eating at 1pm on Day 1, and kept to DD calories until 7pm on Day 2.

So you are thinking that reducing the "fast" time by those 6 hours would be enough to not get the full benefit of the "fast"? (I put "fast" in quotes because I'm talking DD calories, not a complete no food fast). That may very well be. Especially for someone who hadn't yet gotten those benefits completely kicked in to start with yet. I'm willing to fast too, just exploring if 36 hours is a magic number, or if 32 would work, or 30. Or if you lose the benefits if you drop it by a few hours.

I guess it'd be nice if there was a consensus out there somewhere about how long a fast needed to be to kick in the sirt-1 gene. I mean, if you routinely eat supper at 9:30 or 10 (which in the summer, is not unheard of for us--we live on a farm and are often out till dark), you've lost 3+ hours in the fasting spread. Or even just eating a bedtime snack on your UD's could do the same thing.

I hope you don't mind me bouncing ideas around with you. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really just find it all fascinating.

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Old 02-06-2012, 03:07 PM   #17
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No, I quite agree with you. It would be nice if there was an exact manual.. tire pressure is X.. oil to gas ratio is X.. allergy to shellfish means no shrimp.. fast must be a minimum of X number of hours to even start to be effective......

And it is very interesting. But like I said, I think many aren't looking for long term health benefits that are attributed to a fasting lifestyle. They just care about weight loss.

The reasons I am following this fasting plan are several, I guess, but number one, as an elder I want the benefits to my body as a whole, reduced blood pressure and blood sugar, increased insulin sensitivity, etc. I do want less inflammation in vessels, increased immune response, etc. etc. I'd love to believe that science knows what it is speaking of when they describe the fasting condition as opening up channels of repair, and of our body searching out little imperfections within and gobbling up those little micro-tumors, and poorly formed cells of one organ or another.

Also as an elder, I should have to eat a great deal fewer calories than I've been able to work myself up to, and I count that increase in metabolism as very much a benefit from actual fasting, as in.. the longer hours of fasting, paired and played against the high calories on my UDs. So that's awfully fun for an older gal. Being able to eat more doesn't just allow for more *fun* treat foods.. it allows me more food nutrition as well.

So because I get more calories, I will have a supper of beet greens w/bacon with balsamic vinegar sauce, parsnips w/cardamom butter, roasted brussels sprouts w/olive oil & sea salt, mashed butternut squash with butter, shrimp cocktail on shredded lettuces, which will then have sliced tomatoes added and become the side salad. I'll have chicken with that apricot/ginger/curry sauce posted in our menu thread. Lots of food and lots of nutrients in one meal, allowed me because I've been able to increase my metabolism on JUDDD. I'll probably have apple wedges and sharp cheddar cheese later.

I really respect JUDDD for what it has done for me, over time, and what I believe it is and will continue to do for me. I'm quite happy to just eat this way. I don't try to short change the fasting hours. If anything, I sometimes push them out a few hours beyond a mere 36-hour stretch.

Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts on the effectiveness of JUDDD when it is followed. I don't try to reinvent how it is set up in order to shorten my hours of few calories. I really do pretty much embrace the fast for its value to me and my ongoing health status.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:01 PM   #18
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Thanks Pat. I appreciate your wisdom. And while I have your attention, I wonder if you'd mind peeking in at my thread a bit down the page (3 week results and trouble shooting help), and see if you can give me any thoughts on why not much is happening with me.

Contrary to my thoughts here, I HAVE been doing JUDDD as intended, or at least I think I am. But maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks!
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:24 PM   #19
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Stats: 225/145/ ...
WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
Start Date: JUDDD - 2/01/12 Began at 200, Goal 130
Everyone~ I am so thankful to have so many pros to give me their thoughts on this! I have not had a chance to read everything, just got in for the evening, but I am going to study your replies and will get back later. I had previously studied fasting for healing of the body long before I thought about using it for weight loss. Now, that I am going to actually use it for the purpose to try and shake the extra pounds and get to goal, I would like to know all that I can so that I don't hurt my metabolism.

Thank you so much!
__________________
""Nutrient hunger can cause weight loss to plateau and reverse, even if the diet does not change."--Paul Jaminet
I guess I am a little weird, I like to talk to animals.
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http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ot...th-august.html
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