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Old 12-25-2011, 11:33 AM   #1
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Tomorrow will be my first down day, any advice for how to get through it?

Gah! I'm kind of scared and kind of excited. I have been on and off my low carb "plan," as it were, for a couple of months now. I have been on for a week to ten days straight a couple of times and stopped losing after day 3 or so and then when I get to day 8, 9 or 10, I feel demoralized and face plant into the carbs. Usually there is a low blood sugar involved (I am a type I diabetic, so I use insulin).

So I am hoping to really make this a lifestyle kinda change and if something's not working, tweak it, not abandon it all together. (While I am bummed that I haven't managed to stay on plan for a while now, I'm actually kinda proud of myself because I haven't spent six months in between tries in denial. I have mostly gotten back on track very quickly, within a few days except for the last week or ten days because I didn't want to challenge myself too much right off the bat with xmas.)

My plan is to stay vlc and on DDs to have only HWC and maybe some cheese if I need it. I'm hoping to stay at 367 cals, like the calculator says, unless it feels really impossible. I *think* I can do it because I have already been doing a lot of IF'ing. My fasts are normally only a max of 26 hours, though, so 36 sounds a little daunting.

One of my major goals is to feel, at this time next year, like my relationship with food is WAY more healthy than it is now. This xmas, I just didn't feel like I could have yummy foods here for my family without going overboard with them myself. So, I gave myself permission to go overboard and enjoy it. I think that's okay but I'm hoping that next year I can be in a place where it feels okay for me to have just a little or none at all. My relationship to food has changed a lot in the last 8 months or so and I'd like to keep going.

So that's a little about me. Now, tell me, how did you get through those first down days?

Also, I'm wondering what MD stands for, medium day?
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Old 12-25-2011, 11:53 AM   #2
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Hi Jayne! Welcome

DD are approached very differant. It is what works for you. Some of us save all our calories for one large meal and others use there calories thoughout the day.

Its helps to concetrate on protein and veggies. Lower calorie stuff for your DD. Alot of water, Tea and coffee. I use the mantra I can have it tomarrow! I remind myself alot and it seems to work. It helps to know its not forever.

Count everything you eat. It okay if you go to 500 calories or even above if you are really stuggling. The best is to keep it under 500 but many thought that was not enough for them and they changed up there upday calories to accomadate the deficiet.

REMEMBER Weigh after DD only. You will see alot of bouncing in your weight

Good Luck... I am two weeks down and lost 6pounds. That is the two weeks before Xmas!! Ask as many questions as you need to.. Take a look at the DD thread to get some ideas on how to stretch those calories. hugs
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:01 PM   #3
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Oh come join us on the weight management thread. Lots of support!
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:49 PM   #4
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Yes, MD stands for medium day. Add your UD + DD calories, divide by 2.

Quote:
My plan is to stay vlc and on DDs to have only HWC and maybe some cheese if I need it. I'm hoping to stay at 367 cals, like the calculator says, unless it feels really impossible. I *think* I can do it because I have already been doing a lot of IF'ing. My fasts are normally only a max of 26 hours, though, so 36 sounds a little daunting.
I just started doing "Atkins Fat Fast" as my DDs this week; more calories than you, though, at least for now. My blood sugar & hunger was more manageable than when I was trying to "feel full" on veggies, fiber, and low-fat protein, as most of the JUDDDers seem to do their DDs.

Everybody's different, of course...I'm not knocking it; in fact, I wish I could feel full on lots of veggies! But about an hour after I eat that kind of food (or shirataki noodles), it's like my stomach figures out that I tricked it with Low Calorie Bulk, gets angry, and makes me feel 10x hungrier!!!

Suggestion #1: I use light cream because 1 cup of light cream (468 calories) has 8.8g carb, and 1 cup of heavy cream (821 calories) has 6.6 g carb--only 2.2g difference in an entire cup, and for your calorie allotment, you wouldn't be using a full cup anyway!

Suggestion #2: Have lots of broth or bouillon (I prefer the paste to the cubes/powder) on hand--chicken, beef, veggie, whatever you like. I've been adding 2 Tbsp of cream to my 16oz mug, then pouring in the broth. For some reason, warm drinks--even plain water--relieve my hunger for at least half an hour.

Suggestion #3: Don't panic or feel bad if you go over your planned calories. Remember, even 40-45% is still "weight loss mode" and 50-60% is still officially "JUDDDing" (maintenance mode). You can always try again next DD! Don't try to punish yourself or make it up by doing another DD the next day, unless you eat enough calories to turn your messed-up DD into an UD.

My first attempt at a DD turned into 1200 calories (50% of my UD cals), my next one was about 1000, then 800, then I got into the swing of things! I still lost 1 lb the first messed-up week and 3 lbs the second week.

If you still feel daunted by the 36-hour fast after trying for a week, or if you can't make it through your DDs because you "face plant into carbs", message me...I've been doing an alternate schedule so the fast is only about 24 hours.

Good luck, and if you can get online during the day, I'm sure more of us will be around tomorrow post-Christmas to help you through!
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Last edited by piratejenny; 12-25-2011 at 06:50 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-25-2011, 08:20 PM   #5
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I remember my first DD being the hardest! But they are actually enjoyable to me now and I look forward to them. I had headaches the first few DDs so if you get them, they'll probably go away soon enough. Many of us started at 500 calories for DDs so if you can't do 367, don't feel bad about it. 367 would be a challenge for me.

Some tips:

If you're a coffee drinker, don't give that up! SF Creamer has less calories than half and half if you're not one of the lucky ones that enjoy it black.

Measure everything and tally your calories with an online calorie counter or on paper.

DDs seem to be easier if you put off actual food until later in the day.

Bouillon cubes and Diet Swiss Miss Hot Cocoa have been my saviors when I am getting too hungry. Tea is great, too.

Check out the DD recipes threads. There is also a DD staples thread somewhere.

Keep it simple on DDs. My favorite go to food was homemade or Progresso Light Soup. My new favorite is the cooked cabbage, with Laughing Cow Cheese and chicken. All are very filling.

Good luck to you. Many of us will be on a DD Monday since it's the day after Christmas!
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Old 12-25-2011, 11:53 PM   #6
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PirateJenny, Thanks for all the advice! I read your MUDDD thread and I'm keeping it in the back of my mind. I'm hoping I can do the 36 hours, but if it's really difficult, I will try MUDDD. And I may experiment with light cream. When I IF, I have heavy cream throughout the day and I think the fat carries me through. But it may be nice to have something I can bite into, too. I didn't realize that light cream was so low in carbs.

I'm going to go check out the DD recipe threads. A low carb soup with veggies in it sounds good to me. I haven't had soup in ages and I like to make it and eat it. My older son would love that, too, actually.

I'm sure I'll be checking in with you guys tomorrow! It's midnight here now and I'm afraid to go to bed because that's when the crap eating is officially over. I know I'll be relieved, especially a few days into it, but it's a hard pill to swallow.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:26 AM   #7
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Jayne-
I'm surprised that you do IF or any other kind of fasting because I understand that diabetics do best by eating more frequently to keep blood sugar stable. I'm not diabetic myself, but there's a family history of Type2, so I've tried to keep informed.

Perhaps that's why you've had difficulty sticking to plans? Personally, I know that Dr. J warns against JUDDD for diabetics, but my own opinion is that any diabetic who wants to manage his/her weight should be familiar with Dr. Richard Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. I find his website a wealth of info.

As you may already know, he's a Type1 diabetic, who actually became an MD (he was an engineer) because the medical establishment would not listen to his dietary suggestions (made from controlling his own blood sugar with low carb eating). He is still ignored--except by diabetics who appreciate his explanations of how food affects them.

My understanding is that weight loss is much more complicated for insulin-dependent diabetics.
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:49 AM   #8
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I'm also a little concerned to hear about a type-one diabetic trying this. My FiL has type one and he has to eat every three to four hours or he has problems. Have you checked with your doctor about this plan? (That was the first thing that I did, as a nursing mother, and it was approved with some modifications.)
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:14 AM   #9
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Aww, thanks for your concern guys! I am pretty well versed in taking care of my diabetes, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knittering View Post
I'm also a little concerned to hear about a type-one diabetic trying this. My FiL has type one and he has to eat every three to four hours or he has problems. Have you checked with your doctor about this plan? (That was the first thing that I did, as a nursing mother, and it was approved with some modifications.)
A type I should never *have to* be eating like that as a general rule. Of course, if one's blood sugar is low and going lower, there's really no way around that. The thing to do, though, is to match one's insulin to the amount of food you want to eat, not the other way around. I have to admit that a lot of the weight I've gained over the years is probably due to "feeding my insulin," which is a horrible situation. Is your FIL using some antiquated insulin like NPH or Regular? When I was first dx'd in 1993, that was all that was available and it was HORRIBLE because you'd do a shot to cover what you were going to eat, but then your insulin (if using regular) would spike 5 1/2 hours later, so you had to feed it, no way around that. NPH has like 3 peaks, IIRC, and you had to feed it at like 5, 8, and 12 hours or something along those lines. So I guess it could work for someone who is planning on being hungry and knows exactly how hungry they'll be in 5, 8, and 12 hours. Thank god, about 4 months after I was dx'd Humalog came out. You shoot your humalog around 15 minutes before eating and it should be completely out of your system by around 2 1/2 hours eating, which is relatively close to how long you are going to be needing insulin to cover your meal. No need to ever feed it. If you're not hungry, you just don't shoot any.

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Originally Posted by Leo41 View Post
Jayne-
I'm surprised that you do IF or any other kind of fasting because I understand that diabetics do best by eating more frequently to keep blood sugar stable. I'm not diabetic myself, but there's a family history of Type2, so I've tried to keep informed.

Perhaps that's why you've had difficulty sticking to plans? Personally, I know that Dr. J warns against JUDDD for diabetics, but my own opinion is that any diabetic who wants to manage his/her weight should be familiar with Dr. Richard Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. I find his website a wealth of info.

As you may already know, he's a Type1 diabetic, who actually became an MD (he was an engineer) because the medical establishment would not listen to his dietary suggestions (made from controlling his own blood sugar with low carb eating). He is still ignored--except by diabetics who appreciate his explanations of how food affects them.

My understanding is that weight loss is much more complicated for insulin-dependent diabetics.
Losing weight is much more complicated and difficult, IMO. (Though I'm sure that there are also very metabolically resistant people that have no diagnosable condition.)

BUT eating often is about the worst thing a type I could try to stabilize their blood sugar. That causes an UP DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN blood sugar situation that is miserable and tends to require a ton of insulin. I do understand that it was the conventional wisdom for many years, but I think that was mainly due to the fact that the insulins (R and NPH as above) were so sucky.

I told my endocrinologist about my IF'ing the last time I saw him and he was *very* surprised that anyone at all could do it (I told him I was eating once per day at 7 pm, as was my habit then), but he agreed that it must be awesome for blood sugar. When I'm IF'ing like that, I wake up in the morning and test my blood sugar, do any sort of correction I need with insulin (ie, to bring my bs down to normal if it's high) and then test two hours later to confirm I'm on track and then, if I don't eat till 7 pm, my blood sugar is just flat till 7, so often it will just be 85 or 90 all day long with no variation, no up and down, no peaks and valleys. It's actually pretty awesome. And then for my dinner, I would almost always have 2 fatty burger patties and 2 slices of cheddar cheese and 4 slices of bacon, which required 4 units of insulin. And because there was no carb (about 2 g from the cheese, but pretty negligible), there was no real rise in blood sugar there, either. Of course, I had to do some insulin to cover the conversion of the protein to glucose, but that's a much more gradual thing than eating a carby meal and having it spike you suddenly.

Dr. Bernstein is my hero! Nothing I'm doing is counter to his teachings. I am pretty sure that his 6, 12, 12 grams is just what he considers to be the minimum possible to follow. I have been much more confident about making my diet work for me instead of against me because of his book. He was a true pioneer! And I follow a lot of his "rules" about blood sugar control that aren't related to food, too. I'd recommend it to any diabetic.

Okay.... nobody probably needed that much of an explanation. I do think, though, that my body is a pretty interesting little laboratory when it comes to carby experiments. I would of course trade that for a working pancreas, but we are all working with what we've got.
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Okay.... nobody probably needed that much of an explanation.
I found it so interesting; thank you!!!

After reading the "I'm concerned" comments, I was washing dishes and wondering, once a Type 1 gets their blood sugar stable, since they don't produce insulin, theoretically couldn't they go for a long time without eating and have no BG fluctuations? They would be using less insulin and therefore not have to worry about BG getting too low, nor too high from eating. You totally answered that!

I'm a Type 2 and initially after my diagnosis, I found that the longer I went without eating, the higher my BG would get! After a few months of taking Metformin, which is supposed to suppress hepatic gluconeogenesis & increase insulin sensitivity, this phenomenon seems to be subsiding...especially when I eat higher fat/moderate protein in conjunction with low carb (as opposed to high protein/moderate or low fat).

Quote:
I had to do some insulin to cover the conversion of the protein to glucose...
This is something I've seen discussed so much on the main forum--"too much" protein will raise one's blood sugar. I know it will vary from person to person, but do you have any idea how much protein is "too much" for you, or how much gets converted to glucose, or if different types of protein have different effects (eggs vs beef vs fish, for example)? So many people say "Atkins says XX% of protein gets converted to glucose" while, IIRC, Dr Bernstein says only excess complete proteins get converted to glucose. Not all proteins are created equal; the amino acids profile differs greatly from food to food. I've noticed, for example, that I get hungry sooner after eating tuna fish or chicken (even with mayo or other fats) than I do after eating fatty beef or pork.
(sorry--if this is too involved or annoying to answer, please disregard!)
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:38 PM   #11
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I'm happy it was informative!

Ya know, I think it's possible that I have type II on top of my type I. I obviously don't do the producing large amounts of insulin part, but I think I'm pretty insulin resistant for a type I. I am very syndrome X-y, imo, for someone who cannot make their own freaking insulin. I think it is from years of injecting more insulin than I needed. I have had some fantasies of trying metformin, but I'm afraid of the thing you mentioned about the hepatic gluconeogenesis. If I have a low blood sugar in the middle of the night, I often will not wake up from it, but my liver will dump it's glucose and I'll wake up with a bs near 400 -- it's a pretty narrow range actually, like anywhere between 370 and 400. The alternative, I fear, is to not wake up, so I don't want to mess with my gluconeogenesis. Otoh, I do think metformin would help with a lot of my issues.

I really don't know how much is too much on the protein, but I do believe that protein *counts* as carbs to some extent. I have also found that I do a lot better if I eat high fat/moderate protein. Before starting JUDDD, I was aiming for a little more than the RDA in protein, like maybe between 60 and 70 grams a day and then all the fat I wanted. I try to get the fattiest cuts and the fattiest hamburger I can. I love a good Boston Butt Roast! And I do find that nothing makes me feel as sated as very fatty meat. Chicken and tuna don't do it (although I do like tuna with bacon and that helps). And I am always sad about how eggs make no dent whatsoever in my appetite. I think they are probably really good for you, but they don't hold me for ten minutes without a ton of cheese and bacon.
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Old 12-26-2011, 06:54 PM   #12
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Again, so interesting...thank you!

How was your 1st DD?
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:13 PM   #13
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I'm feeling pretty good, but I'm afraid that the hardest part is still to come. It's only 8:15 here and I'm a night owl. I've had so far:

-- 3 cups of coffee with hwc -- 150 cals
-- 2 ounces spiral cut ham leftovers from xmas -- 120 cals
-- 1/3 cup light cherry pie filling -- 60 cals

So, I've got 37 cals left. I think I'll have 2 cups of sweet & spicy tea with 1 T of hwc in each and go over by 13 cals. This morning my 3 year old jumped on me while I was holding my coffee and I lost some, so maybe I will think of it as an even 367 even if I go over.

I'm scared to look and see how many carbs were in the cherry pie filling. I think it's 8, which isn't too bad, but I hope it's not much more.
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Old 12-27-2011, 03:39 AM   #14
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So interesting! DH is a Type II diabetic - but is diet controlled for now. When he was first diagnosed, I persuaded him to reduce his carb intake - not Atkins reduced - just less meals with rice/pasta and half a potato rather than a whole one. He dropped 7kg in about 3 weeks - and went back to not a diabetic levels on his blood work. However - the carb creep happened - and because the Dr is 'happy' with his blood work - he doesn't seen the need to reduce his carbs again - hmmmmm.

Perhaps I should read Bernstein - and see what I can do subtly!! DH isn't fat, but those 7kgs make a difference - particularly as he ages!

I always wondered if a Type 1 could be Type II - as they are different ailments - never looked into it!

Good luck - your first DD looks great!
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MintQ8 View Post
So interesting! DH is a Type II diabetic - but is diet controlled for now. When he was first diagnosed, I persuaded him to reduce his carb intake - not Atkins reduced - just less meals with rice/pasta and half a potato rather than a whole one. He dropped 7kg in about 3 weeks - and went back to not a diabetic levels on his blood work. However - the carb creep happened - and because the Dr is 'happy' with his blood work - he doesn't seen the need to reduce his carbs again - hmmmmm.

Perhaps I should read Bernstein - and see what I can do subtly!! DH isn't fat, but those 7kgs make a difference - particularly as he ages!

I always wondered if a Type 1 could be Type II - as they are different ailments - never looked into it!

Good luck - your first DD looks great!
It's great that he knows how to eat if his labs fall out of line. Also, just a bit of weight loss makes everyone (diabetic or not) more sensitive to insulin, so that alone could make a big difference to him.

My endo says no, a type I cannot be a type II also, because the hallmark of type II is producing way too much insulin. But it would not be the first time somebody in the medical profession was wrong!
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Old 12-27-2011, 02:36 PM   #16
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True - thanks for the reply!
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:05 PM   #17
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This discussion is interesting, so I thought I'd jump in. I'd heard of "double diabetes", so when you mentioned that your endo doesn't think one can have both, I googled it. Here's an interesting explanation of the phenomenon:
The Double Diabetes Epidemic - Type 1 Diabetes Center - EverydayHealth.com
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:52 PM   #18
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Interesting, Rubidoux & Everyone! Keep posting!
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:44 PM   #19
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Perhaps I should read Bernstein - and see what I can do subtly!!
Hmmmm....well, there's nothing subtle about Dr B!
He recommends no more than 30g carb/day
and no more than 12 at once
(so no "saving up" your carbs):
6 @ breakfast, 12 @ dinner & lunch.
(or fewer if one is having snacks).

As a Type 2 (he's a Type 1), there was a lot of info (about insulin, etc) that didn't really apply to me. I'm not recommending against his book, but if your husband isn't on board, I don't think you'll be able to implement much of Dr B's plan.
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Old 12-28-2011, 11:23 PM   #20
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This discussion is interesting, so I thought I'd jump in. I'd heard of "double diabetes", so when you mentioned that your endo doesn't think one can have both, I googled it. Here's an interesting explanation of the phenomenon:
The Double Diabetes Epidemic - Type 1 Diabetes Center - EverydayHealth.com
That's really interesting! I will bring this up to my doc when I see him again. I am wondering, though, if I can kind of cure myself of my type II aspects by staying low carb/high fat. It seems to make my body work properly. Of course, if you're only working properly below 6 g of carb a day, that may not be so proper.

Another interesting thing about the article, other than the science/health stuff, is the judgement! As a type I, I get very little of that sort of judgement. Type I is an autoimmune disease like MS or rheumatoid arthritis, it's not a disease that you get because you're fat (I don't believe that's the case for type II's either, but the medical establishment does, for the most part). So they say crap like this in that article:

"Patients with double diabetes are most often overweight. Doctors suspect double diabetes might be partly caused by type 1 diabetics who take insulin, but haven't made the other healthy lifestyle changes needed to help manage the disease. Because insulin use causes weight gain, if the type 1 diabetic patient doesn't take steps to eat healthy food and exercise regularly, weight gain could begin making his or her cells insulin-resistant."

Well, let me tell you that insulin is no freaking picnic to use. It is *very* hard to get it right and you are either gonna use too much or too little in most cases and just hold your breath that it'll be okay. Sometimes, if you don't factor in the fact that you're going to walk to the corner store and back, you will end up low, ie, you did too freaking much insulin. Then you are going to have to eat to feed that insulin. And if you do that too often (and it is so easy to do! I started a thread at a diabetes forum asking how often type I's have lows and many of them said daily and just about all of them had at least several a week). So, anyhow, when we have this happen, what's going on is very much akin to what's going on with a person with metabolic syndrome, whose body is shooting out too much insulin and they are ending up having to feed their own insulin and get into a terrible circular insulin/carb dynamic. I was in that dynamic for many years (sometimes still am) and, having read quite a few accounts of type II diabetes, I am sure it's the same.

And I don't believe for a minute that it's the type II diabetic's fault anymore than I think it is my fault to have gotten into such a crappy cycle. Whether you're injecting the wrong amount or your body isn't making the right amount, I don't see why lay any blame. It did not start for me because I had some immoral relationship with food and I don't think that's true of type II's either.

Ummm kay, I can talk about this forever and dh is ready with the movie!
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Old 12-29-2011, 12:01 AM   #21
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I get through my down days by telling myself over and over, "You can have it tomorrow."
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