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-   -   Thoughts on Maximizing JUDDD (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/juddd/745677-thoughts-maximizing-juddd.html)

jjMustang 11-15-2011 07:17 PM

Thoughts on Maximizing JUDDD
 
I've been curious about getting the strongest effect from JUDDD, so I've been doing some research and diagrams.

In Dr. Johnson's book, "The Alternate-Day Diet," Dr. Johnson says,
Quote:

In mice it has been shown that a 24-hour fast activates SIRT1 and that the increased activity is still measurable more than 24 hours after the end of the fast. This effect is not unlike that which my colleagues and I have observed in asthmatics. Not only were their markers for oxidative stress reduced after only one down day, indicating the rapid onset of SIRT1, but after following the Alternate-Day Diet for several weeks and then stopping, their symptoms remained improved for approximately 10 to 14 days, suggesting that SIRT1 was still active and its downstream effects were still operating.

Johnson M.D., James B. (2009-04-07). The Alternate-Day Diet: Turn on Your "Skinny Gene," Shed the Pounds, and Live a Longer and HealthierLife (Kindle Locations 785-789). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Quote:

Q. What happens if I miss a down day? *

A. SIRT1 is turned on by the low-calorie intake of the down day, remains active for more than 24 hours after the end of that day, and is probably present in decreasing concentration for several more days. The repetition of the down days increases SIRT1 protein levels to a maximum after approximately 3 weeks. Therefore, if you miss a down day after following the diet for some time you would experience a decline in SIRT1 protein levels but still have much of the desirable anti-i nflammatory activity. If, on the other hand, you had only done one or two down days, you would not have achieved maximum stimulation of the SIRT1 response and would lose those benefits more quickly. If you stop the diet completely, it appears to take 21 days to lose most of the beneficial effects.

Johnson M.D., James B. (2009-04-07). The Alternate-Day Diet: Turn on Your "Skinny Gene," Shed the Pounds, and Live a Longer and HealthierLife (Kindle Locations 2552-2558). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
This got me to thinking about our actual eating patterns. Assuming a person wakes at 6am and goes to bed at 9pm each day, or at least restricts their eating to this period, there is a Period of Permissable Eating and a Period of Fasting or Reduced Calories. The following is a visual timeline of Eating (green) and Fasting (red):

http://i.imgur.com/C2Ob1.jpg

According to the timeline, we have a 15-hour window of eating followed by a 33-hour window of fasting. If the SIRT1 gene is activated after 24 hours, then the 33-hours provided should be more than adequate enough to reactivate the gene. (After full effect is achieved, it takes 10-21 days to actually rid your body of it, but the quote says 24 hours to activate it, and I'm focusing on keeping it activated, right?)

So let's say that I have a dinner scheduled for Thursday night, which I do. But Thursday is a Down-Day. Can I maintain that 24-hour window of fasting prior to the meal to keep it active?

http://i.imgur.com/Hx2L6.jpg

If I consume my Up-Day calories prior to Wednesday dinner and skip that dinner, I can get 24 hours of fasting before dinner on my down-day. The problem is that I now have 9 hours of Fasting followed by 15 hours of Eating (permissable to eating, but you know what I mean). It's not enough to fully reactivate the gene, but after full activation (3 weeks), the period it takes to deactivate and lose benefits is about 21 days.

This leads me to believe that I can adjust for one-time meals while still maintaining my alternating days. I'm also thinking this can be used to reduce the negative effects of Mid-Days, assuming they are planned in advance and not accidental, e.g., "Oops. I shouldn't have eaten those 4 cookies on today's DD." I haven't needed a mid-day yet, but considering I'm only 18 days into JUDDD, I don't want to lose the momentum I've built up so far.

Thoughts? Does this make sense, or am I missing something? The theory seems good, I think, but being a JUDDD-n00b, I might be overlooking something. I could be over-analyzing it too. :confused:

Seabreezes 11-15-2011 07:25 PM

Here is link to a post made by PirateJenny that is quite similar to what you are saying, I think. You can follow the discussion there.
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ju...xperiment.html

Beeb 11-15-2011 07:27 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about but I'm REALLY impressed! WOW, you are one smart cookie and I love the graphs!! :up::clap:

My mind and body just knows that I need to eat and some days it's allowed more food and some days it's not and it tends to like it this way. I think of my DDs are a mini fast anyway, and I :love: food to much to even think about not eating for long periods of time, UD or DD. Just the way the Beeb runs the best, I guess. ;)

So my question to you would be: If it ain't broke, why do you want to fix it? If you have been doing JUDDD, as suggested and on plan for the last 18 days and things are going well, why mess around with it? If you are thinking that the fasting will speed up the weight loss, I'm not sure this will happen but I'm sure someone with a more scientific mind and maybe experience with what you are looking to do will chime in and give some opinions on this for you.

Sorry I couldn't help! :shake:

pjsam1156 11-15-2011 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beeb (Post 15179057)
I have no idea what you are talking about but I'm REALLY impressed!

:rofl::rofl:

Mommie22boys 11-15-2011 08:38 PM

Yes. I believe you're over-analyzing.

First, your red/green graph assumes eating (on green days) from 6am-9pm...what if I don't eat until 9am though? Following the red-green timeline logic, my fasting window is now skewed. Does that mean that you'll now have to eat up until midnight to get your green eating window correct?...but then your red fasting window has been pushed
back...do you have to re-adjust for that now?

Second, take the 3-hour green window on Thursday (the meal you're trying to work in). Ok, you've fasted before-hand, and now you've not got a big enough window of fasting (per your argument) before your next green window. I see this as equating to having just had a MD. You say you're trying to reduce the negative effects of a mid-day, but a mid-day really is still something of a fast. Since your "normal calories" (what Dr. J calls them...what we call Up Day calories) are still quite a bit higher than your MD calories, you're still operating on a 40% or so calorie deficit. And, honestly, even our regular "fasting" days aren't true fasts...they're just more severe calorie deficient days. Isn't that, then what ALL of Thursday (red and green from 6am-9pm) really amounts to when you total your calories for that time period?...just a mid-day.

Yikes! You made me think, do math, and try to speak coherently at almost midnight.

*shudder*

In the end, the plan is the plan...Dr. J wrote it as is for a reason. It works. He also wrote it because he loves us and doesn't want us to hurt our brains so much when trying to figure out when and how much to eat. UD/DD/UD/DD.......

Enjoy your Thursday night meal. Get back on rotation on Friday. JUDDD really will forgive you. :)

Beeb 11-15-2011 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mommie22boys (Post 15179170)
Yikes! You made me think, do math, and try to speak coherently at almost midnight.

At least you understood what JMustang was trying to say and now I'm IMPRESSED with you, Mommy!! :high5::shake:

But that is why I still call you Mommy!! :love::hugs:

Sorry for the thread jump, JMustang! :)

Mommie22boys 11-15-2011 08:54 PM

Lol, Linda! The question is though, did *I* make any sense?? :dunno::stars::confused:

kris4chloe 11-15-2011 10:04 PM

I get it too and I agree that the day that you are sqeezing in the extra three hour eating window really is a MD. MD's can be done if they are needed and they can be done by fasting or eating very light all day and saving calories, or they can by done by spreading out the calories evenly. This looks like a save up sort of mid day and as long as you don't go HOG WILD on the calories in the 3 hour window then you are indeed doing MD calories.

If you don't like the idea of THAT day (in your case Thursday) being a MD then mix it up sooner in the week to adjust your UD and DD's

piratejenny 11-15-2011 10:46 PM

jjMustang--
I'm with ya!
Seabreezes already posted a link to "my" thread---hey, can you make some graphs for me? :D---
and I'm still doing my 24 hour pattern. I really enjoy it, I've lost 12.2 lbs in 5 weeks, and I feel it will be more sustainable for me for the next few years or decades than "real" JUDDD.
Also, if I "mess up" or get invited out unexpectedly, I don't have to wait til the next scheduled Down Day to get back on track; I can start the next 24 hour window at any time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beeb (Post 15179057)
If it ain't broke, why do you want to fix it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mommie22boys (Post 15179170)
In the end, the plan is the plan...Dr. J wrote it as is for a reason.

I haven't read his book but from what I understand, Dr J based this whole WOE, at least initially, on a study which had mice (that don't share our sleeping patterns or concept of "days") eating ad lib for 24 hours and then fasting for 24 hours.

The way JUDDD works out, though, is a much shorter eating window and a much longer window of semi-fasting, based on what Dr J thought would be more convenient and practical for us humans.

Obviously he has treated many patients over the years, and perhaps he has found that his pattern is more effective than the 24 hour one. However, I have not seen any such statements (please post or link if you have).

While generally this sub-forum is very supportive, I've seen a LOT of sort of "shushing" comments whenever a n00b (including myself) has questioned whether following a 24-hour pattern would work, or whether true fasting would be more healthful and effective for weight loss, or has suggested any tweaks that would be more in line with the original study. Several "why would you do that?" and "that's not what JUDDD is" comments are posted, and they kill the discussion.

I respect that the veterans have had great success by following this WOE as written,
but sometimes I feel like if we n00bs do any analytical thinking, we get pounced on. :sad:

Maybe they're afraid we'll give JUDDD a bad name if we don't do it "right", give up, and then say it didn't work for us...much as people say they've tried Atkins and it didn't work for them, when all they did was eat more bacon! :laugh:

Mommie22boys 11-16-2011 03:28 AM

Hi PJ! That's awesome how many pounds you've lost!:jumpjoy: I am glad that what you're doing is working for you...I know that you also have to be cautious about blood sugar due to health reasons, if I remember right. Don't know if the OP also has such needs that require additional caution as well.

My comments above were not related to your plan at all. Really, I'm not sure I even get exactly how you work what you do. :stars: lol! My comments relate only to jjM's suggested plan which, to me, seems complex and I don't get how it really boils down to something that's better than just adding in a MD, but without being so complex.

She (he?...sorry), asked for our thoughts, which I provided. She also wanted to know if she was over-analyzing, which I believe to be the case. I'm not critisizing...just stating my solicited thoughts.

That said, I'm glad that you've posted your experience with your version of the plan in here. These are YOUR thoughts on the matter, which is what she was looking for. It doesn't matter that your thoughts and mine differ on this idea. Now she has more info to base her own decision upon. :shake:

Good luck, jjM!!

Sandelio 11-16-2011 04:16 AM

I'd vote for over-analyzing - BUT give you an A+ on your charts and research! :notwrthy:

But I think this is more of a try and and see situation. If it works for you, GREAT! If not, then you know not to do it again.

Good luck and keep us posted!

E.W. 11-16-2011 04:33 AM

I am also thinking about this but from another angle health and ageing. This WOE has evolved from the animal calorie restriction studies where it was found that fasting every
other day was as effective in extending life as calorie restriction. But when humans tried this alternet day fasting most of them had a hard time with hunger. But then it was found that restricting eating to about 20-25% of normal every other day semed to be
about as efective as an every other day fast in extending test animal lives and humans
found this a lot easier to do thus the DD was born.

But back to the animal studies making a mouse fast every other day extended there life
span about 45% but making them fast 2 days then eat one day made them have about
a 65% longer life. This is from memory and the % figures may be off a little but they did
definitly live longer just eating every 3rd day. At least in the every other day diet the mice ate twice as much on the non fast day as they usualy did so they didn't realy have
any net calorie restriction. So I am just wondering if perhaps 2 DD then a UD might even
be a better way to eat or perhaps doing a 2 dd and 1 UD plan for a week or 2. When we
activate the SIRT1 gene does it get switched on 100% or would 2 DD's in a row allow it
to become more active than 1 DD ?

jjMustang 11-16-2011 04:34 AM

Thanks for the input. I'm not trying to crtiticize Dr. Johnson's plan; I'm a network engineer, so I'm interested in the why part of how things work. Dr. Johnson's plan keeps it simple, which is what a diet plan should do. He bases it on 24-hour periods. I don't disagree with anything he said. However, I was intriqued by the 24hr UD/DD experiment, so I broke it down into 3-hour chunks to see how that 24-hr experiment would compare with Dr. Johnson's original plan. After seeing my timelines and trying to work through my thoughts in my above post, I realized that I was still looking at it wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/LtJaS.jpg

The red is no eating, the orange is fasting, and the green is free-eating. I realize that not everyone sleeps 9 hours or eats at 6. In fact, the numbers are only there for reference. My point is that I think Dr. Johnson's diet works because of the down days are surround by 6-10 hours of sleep, and the period of time in which you're allowed to eat is small compared to when you can't. Additionally, I wanted to visually see how disrupting a DD affected the time gaps between eating.

BTW, I'm a 32-year-old male.

Idreamofweightloss 11-16-2011 05:13 AM

So what does an eating day look like for you right now JJMustang? And if you could just type it out that would be super. For example: Breakfast: 7 am, etc.. and also if its an UP or DD. Are you trying to do what jenny does with her UP/DD?

Mommie22boys 11-16-2011 05:29 AM

<snip>

BTW, I'm a 32-year-old male.

<snip>
Goodness! I'm sorry!:o:stars:

I get the not criticizing part...and now I see better what you were getting at in your first post. The time you're likely to eat (DD or UD) is relatively small compared to when you're not eating. In fact, I have just started increasing my fasting hours, pre-eating window, on my DDs. I am doing this because I think it will be easier to manage on so fee calories if I wait longer before breaking my fast. If there are additional benny's to doing this (like E.W. was mentioning), then that's a bonus!:up:

Rock on with your mad charts!

Sandelio 11-16-2011 06:00 AM

Andrea - everytime I see your name pop up I think you have 22 boys!!!

:rofl:

2muchme 11-16-2011 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandelio (Post 15179701)
Andrea - everytime I see your name pop up I think you have 22 boys!!!

:rofl:

Then she wouldn't have time to post!!

:rofl:

Mommie22boys 11-16-2011 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandelio (Post 15179701)
Andrea - everytime I see your name pop up I think you have 22 boys!!!

:rofl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2muchme (Post 15179738)
Then she wouldn't have time to post!!

:rofl:

OMG, you guys make me laugh!! That's not the first time I've heard that about my SN. Yeah...no. Only TWO!:stars:

Again...sorry for calling you a she, jjM! :o:p

SoHappy 11-16-2011 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjMustang (Post 15179451)
Thanks for the input. I'm not trying to crtiticize Dr. Johnson's plan; I'm a network engineer, so I'm interested in the why part of how things work. Dr. Johnson's plan keeps it simple, which is what a diet plan should do. He bases it on 24-hour periods. I don't disagree with anything he said. However, I was intriqued by the 24hr UD/DD experiment, so I broke it down into 3-hour chunks to see how that 24-hr experiment would compare with Dr. Johnson's original plan. After seeing my timelines and trying to work through my thoughts in my above post, I realized that I was still looking at it wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/LtJaS.jpg

The red is no eating, the orange is fasting, and the green is free-eating. I realize that not everyone sleeps 9 hours or eats at 6. In fact, the numbers are only there for reference. My point is that I think Dr. Johnson's diet works because of the down days are surround by 6-10 hours of sleep, and the period of time in which you're allowed to eat is small compared to when you can't. Additionally, I wanted to visually see how disrupting a DD affected the time gaps between eating.

BTW, I'm a 32-year-old male.

Yes, this is a part of the effectiveness, I think. There are a lot of different calorie cycling plans, and also a lot of fasting plans. I think most of them will be effective for losing some weight if the overall calories are held correctly low enough. I can't speak for them about particular benefits derived from holding the *organism* in a fasted state, or whether they even have much of an extended fasting state, and I also don't know how effective they may be in getting the overall metabolism revved up a bit, which I personally think is one of the most important aspects. (But I was in some serious need for that.) I don't know about these plans.

JUDDD is a combo plan that cycles a fasting period with a period of feasting, and the thing about the fast on this plan is that it stretches over many, many hours on very, very few calories. We would expect this fast to last in the range of 36 HOURS by the time you add the two surrounding nights (pre & post sleeping periods) to the Down Day.

So this is a strong period we are remaining in the fasted state.

Dr. Johnson was himself on his plan, complaining that he was always fighting being a little chubby. He is a plastic surgeon and lectures on that at university in Louisiana, but I understand that it was his inclination to take in too many calories for his metabolism to use that led to his interest in all of the various studies that were being done. He also thought they were fascinating and a new interest was born.

Well, unhappily as these studies have continued, it looks like there is a whole lot more involved than just *triggering this single SIRT1 gene* when it comes to us getting skinny and living long lifespans, as there are a whole lot more pathways being discovered and their interconnectedness is important. Studies and more discoveries continue. It's certainly amazing, isn't it.

But for myself, this plan has been a Godsend, and I have received more benefits than simply weight loss, although that was why I first started doing this plan. I'm a fan! :laugh:

kel7298 11-16-2011 03:09 PM

Very interesting -

I personally just want to keep it simple.

DD = 500/600 daily calories (fasting)
UD = 1800/1900 daily calories (feasting)

But I am simple like that.

Beeb 11-16-2011 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel7298 (Post 15181722)
Very interesting -

I personally just want to keep it simple.

DD = 500/600 daily calories (fasting)
UD = 1800/1900 daily calories (feasting)

But I am simple like that.

Not the only one! :hiya::laugh: The reason I :love: JUDDD.....easy peasy and simple!! :up::clap:

jjMustang 11-16-2011 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idreamofweightloss (Post 15179550)
So what does an eating day look like for you right now JJMustang? And if you could just type it out that would be super. For example: Breakfast: 7 am, etc.. and also if its an UP or DD. Are you trying to do what jenny does with her UP/DD?

My days are traditional JUDDD. I'm not deviating from plan; I'm just trying to understand how to keep the effect active in case I have to deviate.

Up days
6:30-7am: breakfast. bowl of cereal or OMM
11am: lunch - varies. usually ham and cheese on FlatOut bread, almonds, maybe some crackers. Maybe leftovers instead. Or possibly lunch out, but I try to take my lunch because it's cheaper.
3pm - small snack sometimes.
6:30-7pm dinner - whatever the wife makes

down-days
8:30-10:00 - EAS AdvantEDGE shake
9-12: maybe a black coffee with splenda
12-1pm: EAS AdvantEDGE shake
6:30-7pm EAS AdvantEDGE shake
+ lots of water throughout the day


And no hard feelings about being called a she.

tiva 11-16-2011 05:00 PM

Speaking as another scientist (not in nutrition!): the actual research that has been done on humans and "modified alternate day fasting" uses a 2 hour eating window on the down days. That window is usually from noon to 2 pm; the higher calorie days start at 8 am the following day. Prof. Varady's lab at Univ. of Il. Chicago is doing much of this research (ie, see Short-term modified alternate-day fasting: a novel dietary strategy for weight loss and cardioprotection in obese adults)

So here's what the medical research supports:
8 am to 6 pm: UD eating (in the studies, this is "ad libitum" which means "at one's pleasure" in Latin--science speak for eat what you like)
6 pm to noon: 18 hours fasting
noon to 2 pm: very limited eating--25% of energy needs
2 pm to 8 am: 18 hours fasting, for a total of 38 hours very low calorie

When I was trying JUDDD, I tried a 2 hour eating window on my DD because that's what the research was based upon. (But now I'm back to fast-5, a 5 hour eating window and 19 hour fasting window on each day. If I can't stick to the fasting window for some reason, the next day I do a DD of 600 calories to get back on track).

SoHappy 11-16-2011 05:09 PM

Tiva, did JUDDD just not work for you in the way you adapted it? Am I right in remembering that you didn't lose well when you were here?

It sounds like your Fast-5 intermittent plan just works for you more naturally.

kel7298 11-16-2011 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjMustang (Post 15181853)
My days are traditional JUDDD. I'm not deviating from plan; I'm just trying to understand how to keep the effect active in case I have to deviate.

Up days
6:30-7am: breakfast. bowl of cereal or OMM
11am: lunch - varies. usually ham and cheese on FlatOut bread, almonds, maybe some crackers. Maybe leftovers instead. Or possibly lunch out, but I try to take my lunch because it's cheaper.
3pm - small snack sometimes.
6:30-7pm dinner - whatever the wife makes

down-days
8:30-10:00 - EAS AdvantEDGE shake
9-12: maybe a black coffee with splenda
12-1pm: EAS AdvantEDGE shake
6:30-7pm EAS AdvantEDGE shake
+ lots of water throughout the day


And no hard feelings about being called a she.

nice menus. do you find it difficult only having the shakes on dd's?

FremenChick 11-16-2011 06:08 PM

I think you'll find that tweaking the plan much beyond establishing a daily eating window (intermittent fasting), you will quickly come up against the law of diminishing returns.

2muchme 11-16-2011 06:38 PM

Ah, yes, that pesky metabolism....

tiva 11-16-2011 08:53 PM

Hi SoHappy--I found that JUDDD didn't work as well for my particular body and schedule as Fast-5. I didn't like the way I felt after an UD, and my hunger on DDs didn't decrease much by the 4th week. But I do still use some of the JUDDD principles, particularly in alternating a heavier food day with a lighter day. So now I guess I do a combination of the two (today, for example, I'm eating at 600 calories on fast-5 because yesterday I had a late snack). I had mostly decided to try JUDDD after reading Varady's papers, because I wanted to get some of the longer-term health benefits of alternate day fasting (and because fast-5 was tricky at first with a new work schedule.)

SoHappy 11-16-2011 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiva (Post 15182525)
Hi SoHappy--I found that JUDDD didn't work as well for my particular body and schedule as Fast-5. I didn't like the way I felt after an UD, and my hunger on DDs didn't decrease much by the 4th week. But I do still use some of the JUDDD principles, particularly in alternating a heavier food day with a lighter day. So now I guess I do a combination of the two (today, for example, I'm eating at 600 calories on fast-5 because yesterday I had a late snack). I had mostly decided to try JUDDD after reading Varady's papers, because I wanted to get some of the longer-term health benefits of alternate day fasting (and because fast-5 was tricky at first with a new work schedule.)

I wish you well. You eat such *beautiful* food, as pure and natural as any that most of us would dream of being able to obtain, that I can only think it is always healthful for your body.

Your method of alternating heavier and lesser food days is common to other alternating diet plans, and if the longer and strong fasting aspect of JUDDD was difficult for you with little hunger decrease by the 4th week, I'm glad doing a little alternating with the Fast 5 eating window is filling the bill. I'll bet you do well.

E.W. 11-17-2011 07:20 PM

I am a little ashamed to say I have been geting verry little exercise these last 3 months.
I may start back geting some exercise. If I do I will probably exercise on up days a couple of hours before I brake my over night fast. The reason for this time is a lot of studies show that for weight loss and reducing insulin resistance exercising in the fasted state is a lot better than after you ate. So be picking a UD I may be geting the benifits
of the simi fast on the DD and the overnight fast combined. Or perhaps it realy won't matter at all if I exercise on a DD or UD but it's something to think about.


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