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Old 11-07-2011, 07:23 AM   #1
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JUDDD/ESE thoughts and opinions

While I know that my decision may boil down to which plan best fits my lifestyle, I was hoping I could get some opinions on which plan may be best for health, weight loss, metabolism or anything else you can think of. All opinions will be greatly appreciated.

ESE (Eat Stop Eat for those not familiar with it) is simply 2-24 hr. fasts per week. At one point I think I figured out that on JUDDD I would net 500 cals. less per week than w/ ESE.

BTW-you JUDDDers are very encouragingly contagious!!!!
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:14 AM   #2
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I've never heard of ESE before but if it's similar to JUDDD, your transition should be simple Welcome!
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:06 PM   #3
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Hi J4Christ,

I have never eaten ESE, but I've heard of it. I don't know which plan would be best for the categories you mentioned, but from what I've read, fasting in pretty much any capacity is good for a person. Anything that lets one eat less calories is beneficial for the organism.

One just has to decide which way to do that is best for their lifestyle.

I like JUDDD because it keeps the metabolism fired up, unlike a constant calorie-restricting diet. I get the health benefits of fasting, but I get to eat how I want every other day. As I get more into maintenance, I will loosen up more and probably only restrict 3 x week, just have to wait and see. And on those DD I don't have to go without food at all, I can have some if I want.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:16 PM   #4
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I am considering doing a sort of IF(intermittent fasting) on my DDs. It requires eating in only a 5 hour window and right now on JUDD I am only eating in a 6 to 7 hour window on DDs so it wouldn't be a big stretch for me. I currently eat mostly between 2 and 8pm on DDs so waiting one more hour to start eating would do it. I thought that I might reap more health benefits from a longer fasting window. I've been investigating it for a few days as I'm not sure if the benefits would carry over doing it every other day as opposed to every day. IF promotes a 19 hour fast every day.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lori-s View Post
I am considering doing a sort of IF(intermittent fasting) on my DDs. It requires eating in only a 5 hour window and right now on JUDD I am only eating in a 6 to 7 hour window on DDs so it wouldn't be a big stretch for me. I currently eat mostly between 2 and 8pm on DDs so waiting one more hour to start eating would do it. I thought that I might reap more health benefits from a longer fasting window. I've been investigating it for a few days as I'm not sure if the benefits would carry over doing it every other day as opposed to every day. IF promotes a 19 hour fast every day.
Is that called "Fast 5" ?

You can be our experimenter if you do it, and let us know how it goes Edited to add: I think another member - Tiva - does Fast Five.

I have been JUDDDg almost 4 weeks now and I've started noticing something on DD. At a certain number of hours into my DD, I swear I can FEEL the inflammation lowering. It happened on Sat. and it started happening about 25 minutes ago today, another DD.

It seems to occur around 15 hours into the "fasting". (That would be the time I stopped eating the night before on UD, or when I went to bed, until around 15 hours have passed. For example, I fell asleep about 11 p.m. last night on my UD and started noticing the effect about 2 p.m. today on my DD so about 15 hours.)

My nasal passages are clearing - I'm breathing easier. I feel a sense of mental calm, or "pleasant alertness" as I call it.

I just thought I'd mention that since the longer fasting window you brought up made me think of it. It's not that I've been totally fasting the whole 15 hours, but I've had under 200 calories so far.

Last edited by sophiethecat; 11-07-2011 at 12:32 PM..
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:34 PM   #6
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I think ESE would work well with JUDDD! I've tried it.but an all day fast for a thyroid person probably isn't good so I decided not to continue.

But all you'd have to do is choose your cut off time eating at 3,4,5,6, etc say on an UD and then go until the time you choose until you eat again on your DD to eat your DD cals

Try it and see how it goes!
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:48 PM   #7
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Sophie .... Yes some call it the fast 5. I guess IF is just a more generic term.

So??? I get to be the guinea pig??

Well, I might as well start today then because I got busy and am just now thinking about starting to eat.
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Old 11-10-2011, 11:55 AM   #8
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I hope you tell us how it goes if you do it. I ended up moving to juddd instead of a regular hcg round back in September. Just couldn't face how deprived I would feel after the 4th or 5th day of a round, and the grumpy way I would get. Although I do miss the rapid weight loss!
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:11 PM   #9
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OK so Monday Nov 7th (morning weight 163.9)was my DD and I did a 19 hour fast and ate at 4pm (1/2 can Progresso Light Soup, 6pm the rest of the soup, 8pm had diet swiss miss and sf jello totaling 240 cals (included black coffee in the morning at 5am and lots of water).

On Tuesday the 8th, (morning weigh in 163.4) my UD I ate all sorts of things throughout the day even 5oz ice cream w/hershey chocolate syrup at 7:45pm.

On Weds the 9th, (morning weigh in 164.1) my DD I had 5am black coffee, lots of water, got hungry around 1pm, drank another coffee at 3pm and at 8pm had diet swiss miss and sf jello - giving me a full 24 hour fast.

Today, Thurs. the 9th (morning weigh in 162.5) and it's an UD. I felt great this morning even before my weigh in so that weigh in made it even sweeter. I'm looking at possibly making at least 2 DDs a week if not all DDs a 24 hour fast.

So, that's my story so far ... but, it's still early in the rotation. I was just amazed at how good I felt this morning. I didn't sleep well last night ... not because I kept waking up hungry but, because I was excited to get up to see the scales this morning. Sssssssssssh! but, when I got up a couple of times last night I did check my weight. That's why I couldn't sleep because I saw the scale was going down and knew it was going to be a new low this morning.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lori-s View Post
OK so Monday Nov 7th (morning weight 163.9)was my DD and I did a 19 hour fast and ate at 4pm (1/2 can Progresso Light Soup, 6pm the rest of the soup, 8pm had diet swiss miss and sf jello totaling 240 cals (included black coffee in the morning at 5am and lots of water).

On Tuesday the 8th, (morning weigh in 163.4) my UD I ate all sorts of things throughout the day even 5oz ice cream w/hershey chocolate syrup at 7:45pm.

On Weds the 9th, (morning weigh in 164.1) my DD I had 5am black coffee, lots of water, got hungry around 1pm, drank another coffee at 3pm and at 8pm had diet swiss miss and sf jello - giving me a full 24 hour fast.

Today, Thurs. the 9th (morning weigh in 162.5) and it's an UD. I felt great this morning even before my weigh in so that weigh in made it even sweeter. I'm looking at possibly making at least 2 DDs a week if not all DDs a 24 hour fast.

So, that's my story so far ... but, it's still early in the rotation. I was just amazed at how good I felt this morning. I didn't sleep well last night ... not because I kept waking up hungry but, because I was excited to get up to see the scales this morning. Sssssssssssh! but, when I got up a couple of times last night I did check my weight. That's why I couldn't sleep because I saw the scale was going down and knew it was going to be a new low this morning.
I will say this again: Every DD is a mini fast and doing a total 24 houe fast on this day is not something that is recommended or should be done. I would hate to see Newbies thinking this is a good thing to do to get the wait off faster.

I'm not flaming what you are doing, just concerned that others reading how you have decided to do JUDDD and could be thinking this is the way the plan is suggested by the book to be done, especially if they are just reading our threads and not the sticky at the top of the forum explaining how to do JUDDD for optimal success.
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Old 11-10-2011, 02:44 PM   #11
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Per The Alternate Day Diet by Dr. James B. Johnson:

Questions and Answers section:

How low should I go on the down day?

"To maximize the response that lowers oxidative stress and inflammation, eating nothing every other day would probably be most effective. Except, of course, most people can't do it!"

So, I don't see why there would be anything "wrong" with it, if you CAN do it.

Personally, my DD's will pull in IF, not eating anything until dinner and that's it for the day. I'm actually LESS hungry through out the day if I don't eat, than when I eat low calorie foods throughout the day.

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Old 11-10-2011, 02:48 PM   #12
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Beebs ... you are right. The website DOES NOT SAY to do a 24 hour fast but to fast at the recommended calories. I have done this simply because I really am looking for possible maximum fasting health benefits and fasting isn't a problem for me. It's just been a bit of an experiment and not meant to imply that this is the JUDDD plan as Dr. Johnson prescribes.

DISCLAIMER: Please read the stickies, the book and the Johnson Up Day Down Day website.

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Old 11-10-2011, 02:53 PM   #13
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MY book says exactly what I typed above.

How can my book be different?!?!?!?



Seriously - I'm not trying to be a pain or a smart @ss - I just don't understand why there's so much conflicting info...

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Old 11-10-2011, 03:02 PM   #14
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Per The Alternate Day Diet by Dr. James B. Johnson:

Questions and Answers section:

How low should I go on the down day?

"To maximize the response that lowers oxidative stress and inflammation, eating nothing every other day would probably be most effective. Except, of course, most people can't do it!"



Personally, my DD's will pull in IF, not eating anything until dinner and that's it for the day. I'm actually LESS hungry through out the day if I don't eat, than when I eat low calorie foods throughout the day.

I, too think IF is one of the ways that JUDDD can be done, and I can see many advantages to doing IF along with JUDDD, but to do a total fast every DD would probably in the long run cause a person to stop doing this WOE, UNLESS that is how they have decided to do it. As the good Dr says: " Except, of course, most people can't do it!"
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
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MY book says exactly what I typed above.

How can my book be different?!?!?!?



Seriously - I'm not trying to be a pain or a smart @ss - I just don't understand why there's so much conflicting info...

Yes, there is a LOT of conflicting info here lately and this is a reason for my concern. JUDDD is a SCIENCE and should be done as suggested, as I have been saying, over and over and being a pain in the butt to everyone. I HAVE read that book 4 times now, and like anything else, we all get out of reading material what we perceive and sometimes it not the same perception as someone else.

My point is and I'm not trying to be a pain or smart @ss either is that I think this WOE should be done "as suggested" at LEAST for the first 2 weeks.

Give JUDDD a fighting chance! I'm just afraid, and Pat and I have talked about this, that so many will not do well on JUDDD because of this suggested tweak and that suggested tweak and this wonderful WOE will fall into the catagory of, and I quote Pat here in a conversation we have had: "More and more failures and more and more going to other plans because JUDDD didn't work for them... and then guess where the problem will lie and whose fault it will be... JUDDDs. They'll be spreading the word that JUDDD was just another failure of a diet in a long string they tried that didn't work", and all because they didn't do what was suggested or close to suggested, for at least the first 2 weeks.

Last edited by Beeb; 11-10-2011 at 04:02 PM..
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:15 PM   #16
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I think I should add that 95% of us here have not done "as suggested" and done shakes for the first two weeks...

It seems to work without worrying too much about the rules. When not working, it's time to do things like count your up day calories, go lower on down day calories, etc.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:35 PM   #17
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Give JUDDD a fighting chance! I'm just afraid, and Pat and I have talked about this, that so many will not do well on JUDDD because of this suggested tweak and that suggested tweak and this wonderful WOE will fall into the catagory of, and I quote Pat here in a conversation we have had: "More and more failures and more and more going to other plans because JUDDD didn't work for them... and then guess where the problem will lie and whose fault it will be... JUDDDs. They'll be spreading the word that JUDDD was just another failure of a diet in a long string they tried that didn't work", and all because they didn't do what was suggested, for at least the first 2 weeks.
I never thought of it like that. Now I need to go double check my numbers. I just might need to start over. Thanks Linda
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulabob View Post
I hope you tell us how it goes if you do it. I ended up moving to juddd instead of a regular hcg round back in September. Just couldn't face how deprived I would feel after the 4th or 5th day of a round, and the grumpy way I would get. Although I do miss the rapid weight loss!
Hi Paula, you are doing so well!! I remember you from hhcg days. Are you taking the hhcg while doing JUDDD and if so when do you take it?


My intention on starting this thread was not to create controversy, but to compare two written plans...ESE and JUDDD. I realize I posted it on the JUDDD site so I apologize if it "heated" things up unnecessarily.
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:42 AM   #19
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Hi Paula, you are doing so well!! I remember you from hhcg days. Are you taking the hhcg while doing JUDDD and if so when do you take it?
I took it for the first 8 weeks, but am now going "solo". To be honest, I do think it helps somewhat with hunger, but the hunger isn't bad enough to really need it. The hormone also, sometimes, tends to worsen my ovulation pains. So, this is my first week without, and it seems to be going smoothly. But when I was taking it, I just took it on my down days, with heavier doses in the morning (12 drops, then 10, then 8).

I was really glad to see you pop up out of the woodwork. I'm still hanging around on the rogue hcg thread too even though I'm not doing hcg anymore and not any form of protocol.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:15 AM   #20
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I would need to hear more about how the ESE program would be combined with the JUDDD plan. I guess I'd need to know more about the ESE program itself, and even why a person would want to combine it with something else.

Is it a alternating plan of fast/feast/fast/feast.. of the sort that we think of as DD/UD/DD/UD?

Does the *E* part of the ESE plan call for using a calorie calculator to figure an UD calorie number? And then suggested calorie percentages of that UD calorie number to hold an alternate day's food calories to?

I guess, for myself, I just don't know enough (anything LOL) about your ESE plan to know whether it would mesh seamlessly with the JUDDD plan or not. Some plans do, but some don't.

If a plan governs the foods a person is allowed to eat, but has nothing in particular to do with calorie levels or a cycling way of eating those calories, those types of food plans will usually fit OK with JUDDD.

Those plans that lay out the timing of when to eat, combined with the quantities to eat or not to eat along with those times, are sometimes the plans that don't mesh with JUDDD at all.

So, as an example, those who enjoy following a plan with a short *open window* of time each day for their eating may be able to combine with JUDDD, and eat their DD meal within their small 5-hour window on their DDs, and also their UDs, although that may be a struggle to get their UD calories in on UDs just with a small eating window.

Dr. Johnson does say if we can't eat all of our UD calories we don't always have to do so, but..... it is also found that folks who fail to do so on a very regular basis are far more likely to end up with slower metabolisms than those who are able to keep their UD calorie numbers up. Just mentioning this because following the Fast-5 plan with a tiny eating window can mean it's hard to follow JUDDD on UDs. This was just an example. Something that worked really well on the JUDDD DDs, but not so well perhaps on the UDs.

So I just don't know enough about the ESE plan to know whether it would mesh well with JUDDD, or whether it follows an outline that would be opposed and in conflict with the JUDDD outline at various points.

Sometimes, when neither plan is being followed very well, the result isn't the best of two plans, it ends up being the worst of both plans, and just doesn't end up working very well or being anything that you want to continue doing forever. The advantages and even joys of each plan are diminished to the point where... why bother. There's little success and little pleasure.

But as I said above, I don't know about your ESE plan. Perhaps you could tell us about it.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:16 AM   #21
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My intention on starting this thread was not to create controversy, but to compare two written plans...ESE and JUDDD. I realize I posted it on the JUDDD site so I apologize if it "heated" things up unnecessarily.

no worries, we are all educated folks around here, and thank goodness have brains too...lol.. everyone is entitled to their opinions...remember the saying.....opinions are like (fill in the blank) everyone has one
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:27 AM   #22
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Hi Pat!! Thanks so much for putting so much thought into combining JUDDD and ESE. However, my original question was to compare the health/weight loss benefits of either plan, not to combine them. I don't think they would mesh very well eitherToo hard for THIS ol' gal!!!

On ESE (Eat, Stop, Eat) you simply do 2-24 hr. fasts/week. For instance, let's say you eat dinner at 6:00 (finish by 6:30) then you wouldn't eat ANYTHING until 6:30 the next day and then you could eat dinner. It allows you to eat each day, but with a 24 hr. fast in between. You do this twice a week. I hope that helps.

I have heard about the health benefits of complete fasts. But you all seem to have such success w/ alternate day semi-fasts I was hoping someone could chime in on a comparison between the two.

As always with me, I toss in the towel too easily and I am trying find a right fit for life. With JUDDD I can eat 500 or less on DD 3-4 days/week and eat what I want (within reason) 3-4 days/week. With ESE I complete fast 24 hrs. (a bit harder than 500 cals/day) but only need to do this 2 times/week and also get to eat what I want (within reason) 5 days/week.

I sure hope I am making any bit of senseJust trying to figure things out. Thanks for all your thoughts/opinions!!!
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:26 AM   #23
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J4, I think this would be a decision that you may have to figure out on your own. The ESE plan sounds like IF to me but for only 2 days. That may work for you and others who would not like to do IF everyday. It may also be a better fit for some, or may not because it may cause over eating on those other 5 "regular" days.

Maybe give it a try and see what happens?
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Old 11-11-2011, 01:20 PM   #24
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Hi Pat!! Thanks so much for putting so much thought into combining JUDDD and ESE. However, my original question was to compare the health/weight loss benefits of either plan, not to combine them. I don't think they would mesh very well eitherToo hard for THIS ol' gal!!!

On ESE (Eat, Stop, Eat) you simply do 2-24 hr. fasts/week. For instance, let's say you eat dinner at 6:00 (finish by 6:30) then you wouldn't eat ANYTHING until 6:30 the next day and then you could eat dinner. It allows you to eat each day, but with a 24 hr. fast in between. You do this twice a week. I hope that helps.

I have heard about the health benefits of complete fasts. But you all seem to have such success w/ alternate day semi-fasts I was hoping someone could chime in on a comparison between the two.

As always with me, I toss in the towel too easily and I am trying find a right fit for life. With JUDDD I can eat 500 or less on DD 3-4 days/week and eat what I want (within reason) 3-4 days/week. With ESE I complete fast 24 hrs. (a bit harder than 500 cals/day) but only need to do this 2 times/week and also get to eat what I want (within reason) 5 days/week.

I sure hope I am making any bit of senseJust trying to figure things out. Thanks for all your thoughts/opinions!!!
I can identify with this a bit then, because I joined a friend once who only ate one meal a day.. supper at pretty much the same time, every evening. And then fasting until the next suppertime, the next evening. Only... it was every single day!

Well, I found out when I'm that hungry, I can easily eat a whole day's calories in one sitting, and it is no way to live. LOL I didn't last too long.

What I am thinking is this: Holding off eating for many hours (24 in this case) probably doesn't have much to contribute to weight loss IF that evening's meal is a good one and the skipped calories are just eaten at the suppertime meal! Many of us could more than make up for the fasting in that one meal, simply because there is no calorie restriction to it. (Unless I missed that...???)

So since JUDDD is an alternate day plan, I see the comparison of the two plans like this:

JUDDD at 500 calorie DDs and 2000 calorie UDs will give me 14 days like this:
7 x 500 = 3500 calories - - 7 x 2000 = 14000 calories - - 17500 calories total

Does ESE have calorie limits? Allowing for 4 fasting days per two week period gives me 10 full calorie days anyway, so that is 10 x 2000 = 20000 calories (already 2500 calories more than JUDDD) plus the 4 suppertimes on the fasting days, which I could easily manage in the 1200 or more level, so at least another 4800 to 6000 calories from the fasting days on top of the 20000 calories of the *Eating* days.

I know ESE would not work for me for weight loss, and I'm almost positive I would not be able to maintain my weight on that plan, while still eating at my preferred calorie level on all non-fasting days.

But here's another thing that I question, and it has to do with the ESE *fast*... and this only applies if there is no calorie limitation to that suppertime meal on the fasting days... and it is this: I don't think many studies really consider just not eating during the day and waiting till suppertime (even allowing 24 hours since last evenings suppertime) to eat a big full meal as really constituting fasting. As far as really triggering much of any of the benefits of fasting, etc.

If the meal on the fasting day is just a token quantity of food, of calories, very tiny, and the fast is then continued throughout the night until the fast is finally broken sometime on the following day, I think it is considered more beneficial, and I think that is based on the diurnal cycles and rhythms of human beings, and the fact that one entire cycle completes with very, very little food processing going on in the body for the length of that diurnal cycle. With JUDDD, the hours of fasting add up from after supper one day, through the night, for all of the entire following day, and then through that whole night as well, and up until the fast is broken on that third day.. That can easily range up to 36 hours, all on only token calories.

But, while I've read and find the subject and ongoing studies fascinating, I am by no means expert. Merely interested.

You can pretty much tell if a plan is great for weight loss by how people do on the plan though. If folks are losing weight easily, and they're losing week after week after week on ESE, and they're enjoying their plan and feeling great, that's a pretty good sign the plan is real workable for weight loss, at least. As to the benefits attributed to fasting for human health, I personally doubt that the ESE plan would contribute much. But I could be wrong.

But often here, since this is basically a weight loss site, folks don't care about that as much as the immediate weight loss a plan can provide.

Last edited by SoHappy; 11-11-2011 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:45 PM   #25
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Just as a side note (I'm a font of useless information!) I remember hearing how sumo wrestlers maintained their size by eating only one meal a day. Although, I would imagine they probably ate a weeks worth of calories per day. I remember how drs of the day (some time in the 80s) were warning people to make sure they ate breakfast and using sumo wrestlers as the example of what could happen to you if you only ate one or two meals a day. At the time, I only ate late lunch and dinner which is why I probably remember this piece of info. They used it as a scare tactic. Isn't it funny how they can manipulate data!

Really has nothing at all to do with the conversation....it just reminded me...sorry

anyway, carry on....
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:53 PM   #26
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Ok, how about this....it's more pertinent, anyway. I think I could do the fast. My exhusband was Jewish (though not a good one) but I found that the fast for Yom Kippur was actually doable. At least until that last trip to services before the fast ended. But, I think I could probably do it.

Not sure I want to though. What I like about JUDDD is the food part!!!
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:56 PM   #27
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Ok, how about this....it's more pertinent, anyway. I think I could do the fast. My exhusband was Jewish (though not a good one) but I found that the fast for Yom Kippur was actually doable. At least until that last trip to services before the fast ended. But, I think I could probably do it.

Not sure I want to though. What I like about JUDDD is the food part!!!
You're cracking me up, Vicki! Sumo wrestlers, Jewish ex husbands, and abandoning fasting in favor of food! That's making me laugh!
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by 2muchme View Post
Just as a side note (I'm a font of useless information!) I remember hearing how sumo wrestlers maintained their size by eating only one meal a day. Although, I would imagine they probably ate a weeks worth of calories per day. I remember how drs of the day (some time in the 80s) were warning people to make sure they ate breakfast and using sumo wrestlers as the example of what could happen to you if you only ate one or two meals a day. At the time, I only ate late lunch and dinner which is why I probably remember this piece of info. They used it as a scare tactic. Isn't it funny how they can manipulate data!

Really has nothing at all to do with the conversation....it just reminded me...sorry

anyway, carry on....
Thanks for posting this! I needed a Don't sumo wrestlers eat something like 10,000 calories in one sitting?
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:14 PM   #29
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Thanks for posting this! I needed a Don't sumo wrestlers eat something like 10,000 calories in one sitting?
sounds about right.
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Old 11-12-2011, 07:32 AM   #30
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Oh my!!! Now you see why I posted my question here! You are all so detailed and thoughtful in your replies. So much to think about

I did do two fasts the week before last and lost 1 lb. Of course, then I started thinking about JUDDD so while I was thinking I did nothing

Pat, your info on cals in on a weekly basis was eye opening. I did figure out at one point that on JUDDD I would be eating 500 fewer cals./week than on ESE (IF I didn't overeat when I broke my fast!!). I don't think I am at risk of eating 10,000 cals when I break my fast (thanks for sumo wrestler visual, 2muchme) but if I was honest with myself I'm sure I would overeat.

Thanks Beeb, your encouraging posts are what got me thinking about JUDDD. Still pondering though...I sure love reading everyone's inspiring posts so for that reason I'll still be here, maybe soon to join you all
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