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Old 07-14-2012, 04:25 PM   #181
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I was not doing much in the way of JUDDD or MUDDD over the last month regularly - some basic IF mostly. I was driving home yesterday and unfortunately had been unable to grab anything to eat since the night before. It was going on 2 p.m. now and I was really feeling the effect of no calories. All I'd had was some plain tea and then some plain coffee. I didn't FEEL hunger - actually what I felt was the "DD buzz" and that felt great, but there was something else too - I could feel something bad brewing under it all.

I was almost home so I kept going and started to feel this weird head & body sensation happening, hard to explain, and was a little nervous about driving in that new, weak state. I opened a bottle of water which was all I had, and thought it helped at first, then but it seemed to make things worse. I was ready to pull over and let it pass if it would, but I pulled out a stick of SF gum and chewing that, it seemed to make a better difference in how I felt. I still knew it was a tight line however, and that I needed real food and soon, and I finally got home.

Something I did not expect though, was that before I ate, I took my blood glucose reading and it was 100. I thought with the symptoms I was having, it would be quite low. Maybe the water and/or stick of SF gum made it go up some? I have reduced my Metformin dose to 500 - 750 mg. this month, if that makes a difference. Just wondering what those who know think was happening.
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:18 PM   #182
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Hi Sophie,

It does have something to do with IF, because I have been researching this very thing myself. I am not diabetic, but having some other issues that have never had before. So, I started researching. I will be back with more that I have discovered. This may not pertain to your situation.

"Why? Because fasting can elevate cortisol levels. One of cortisol’s effects is that it raises blood sugar. So, in someone with blood sugar regulation issues, fasting can actually make them worse."


Intermittent fasting, cortisol and blood sugar


Fasting blood glucose increase while intermittent fasting - PaleoHacks.com
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:21 PM   #183
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Thanks, Sunday. I wonder if the bad feeling was just because I wasn't used to going such a long stretch without food lately, or if had to do with the lowered Met, or it could have been hormonal or anything - or all of the above. I will look into the links you gave. Thanks again.

Adding: Come to think of it, going until 2 p.m. without eating was a long time for me even when I was used to doing DD.

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Old 07-14-2012, 05:33 PM   #184
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Also, Sophie, I don't think you are low carb, but being LC/paleo and fasting has caused me an even larger dilemma.

The High Blood Glucose Dilemma on Low Carb (LC) Diets - PaleoHacks.com


Sadly, I think I am going to have to either stop IF or do something to control blood sugar. I was also taking CO and this was boosting the BS situation because of the ketones.
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:40 PM   #185
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You might try keeping something with you in your purse, that you could snack on that would help break the fast when you start feeling this.

In my instance, I noticed nausea or queasy feeling and I noticed that my weight loss has slowed to a crawl. Also, my fasting blood sugar was 96 and that seems rather high. I need to get a bg monitor, because after going low carb I may have caused this situation.
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:22 PM   #186
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The cortisol/blood sugar connection is why my naturo wants me to NOT fast through breakfast. He actually LIKES IF, for people who don't have adrenal issues or blood glucose issues, and I have both. Fasting makes the adrenals work harder to produce the cortisol needed to get the bg up.

I think it's possible that your bg was lower when you were feeling so off, and then your body did what it was supposed to do, released cortisol and started the cascade of signals that brought it back up.

Keeping something in your purse sounds like a good idea.
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #187
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Tina,
Did your Naturo think this could be a sign of addrenal issues? I only ask, because I have had that funny feeling in the morning and sometimes I eat very close or right about noon, but if I wait too long, it is bad. I have read that CO in the morning with nothing else for breakfast can boost the ketones and cause this same Blood sugar issue. Too many ketones?
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:02 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by mykidsteacher View Post
I think it's possible that your bg was lower when you were feeling so off, and then your body did what it was supposed to do, released cortisol and started the cascade of signals that brought it back up.
This is exactly what I was going to say.

I don't test my BG all that often anymore, but when I did, I noticed that my BG would go higher the longer I fasted--when it should have been going down!!!

Metformin *is* supposed to help prevent that (glucose dump?), or at least keep it from going too high.

Quote:
I opened a bottle of water which was all I had, and thought it helped at first, then but it seemed to make things worse.
Water can make my BG go significantly lower; by increasing blood volume, I think...good when BG's high, but of course could be bad when it's too low already!

OTOH, ravenrose has mentioned (on other BG threads) that sometimes when people get those feelings, they assume it's hypoglycemia but it might be something else, like low blood pressure.

Or maybe we're missing sodium & other electrolytes when we go long periods without eating.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:04 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Tina,
Did your Naturo think this could be a sign of addrenal issues? I only ask, because I have had that funny feeling in the morning and sometimes I eat very close or right about noon, but if I wait too long, it is bad. I have read that CO in the morning with nothing else for breakfast can boost the ketones and cause this same Blood sugar issue. Too many ketones?
He didn't really say. His concern is because I DO have diagnosed adrenal issues, and didn't want me putting more stress on them by fasting.

I think if I had a funny feeling with not eating, I'd do a little of SOMETHING. Maybe a watered down protein shake, just to give that little boost.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:47 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by mykidsteacher View Post
The cortisol/blood sugar connection is why my naturo wants me to NOT fast through breakfast. He actually LIKES IF, for people who don't have adrenal issues or blood glucose issues, and I have both. Fasting makes the adrenals work harder to produce the cortisol needed to get the bg up.

I think it's possible that your bg was lower when you were feeling so off, and then your body did what it was supposed to do, released cortisol and started the cascade of signals that brought it back up.

Keeping something in your purse sounds like a good idea.
Well folks, I have been reading & studying in depth about this on a website that Shelbyla recommended and I am going to quit the fasting through to lunch until I can have a saliva test for my cortisol. I have pinpointed that I believe I may be stressing my adrenals and that the nausea could have an underlying factor.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:47 AM   #191
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Sunday, that sounds like a wise decision. Let us know how the cortisol results come out.

When I had my cortisol saliva test last year, my levels were basically flat-lined at nothing. It was no wonder I had no energy/motivation. I was quite literally, running on fumes.

Good luck!
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:13 PM   #192
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Also, Sophie, I don't think you are low carb, but being LC/paleo and fasting has caused me an even larger dilemma.

The High Blood Glucose Dilemma on Low Carb (LC) Diets - PaleoHacks.com


Sadly, I think I am going to have to either stop IF or do something to control blood sugar. I was also taking CO and this was boosting the BS situation because of the ketones.
I'm still reading the links you gave - thanks again What takes me forever is I have so many tabs open all the time reading stuff and then I get caught up in reading the comments because they are so interesting and helpful too, lol.

I was doing LC most of the time on J/MUDDD and just IFg. I only raised my carbs much in the last couple weeks, and that was caused mostly by some beans, veg, whole grains, fruits, and the occasional refined stuff. I've lowered my fats in the last couple weeks too. I don't do "no fat" or even "low fat" but just a lot lower compared to what it was before. For example, I used to pour on olive oil or use hunks of butter without measuring. This didn't hurt my weight loss, I guess because I was doing a lower -moderate carb but it was affecting my hormones something awful (and I only just figured it out after 2 years! I'll prob. have to explain my dietary fat/hormone connection in another thread sometime).

Anyway, not that long ago I came across some articles about what you're talking about - how LC causes IR! I feel now that I was not helping myself by doing a high fat/LC diet, and can see how for me, a lowER fat, moderately carbed diet is King. Not only theoretically, but every time I actually DO it that way I get such positive results. I also think this may be one reason why I lost so slow on LC and why I seemed to have weight fall off me doing the "moderate carb". We're all built a little different, so I can't say this would be the answer for others. But I started getting a thought in the back of my head that this LC/IR thing might play some part in why it seems at least a few people stall quite long and hard on LC.

Adding - How was the CO affecting your ketogenic diet? Forgive me, I haven't read up on some of this stuff in a while, and my head is so full of things I've been researching it all won't fit! lol.

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Old 07-16-2012, 04:22 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
You might try keeping something with you in your purse, that you could snack on that would help break the fast when you start feeling this.

In my instance, I noticed nausea or queasy feeling and I noticed that my weight loss has slowed to a crawl. Also, my fasting blood sugar was 96 and that seems rather high. I need to get a bg monitor, because after going low carb I may have caused this situation.
I have the ReliOn Micro from Walmart and it seems to have the cheapest test strips and takes a very tiny amount of blood, unlike the other monitor I used to have.

Also I wanted to encourage you that even if you did get a bad result from the LC, I doubt it is permanent. I know I've put my body through all kinds of hormonal and metabolic upheavals and it has a way of bouncing back, and I think it's true of the majority of people Or nobody would be losing any weight at all. You will figure out what you need to do, and I'm sure it willl work for you.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:56 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidsteacher View Post
The cortisol/blood sugar connection is why my naturo wants me to NOT fast through breakfast. He actually LIKES IF, for people who don't have adrenal issues or blood glucose issues, and I have both. Fasting makes the adrenals work harder to produce the cortisol needed to get the bg up.

I think it's possible that your bg was lower when you were feeling so off, and then your body did what it was supposed to do, released cortisol and started the cascade of signals that brought it back up.

Keeping something in your purse sounds like a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
This is exactly what I was going to say.

I don't test my BG all that often anymore, but when I did, I noticed that my BG would go higher the longer I fasted--when it should have been going down!!!

Metformin *is* supposed to help prevent that (glucose dump?), or at least keep it from going too high.
I see what you guys are saying. And I haven't had problems like this through all the fasting/semi-fasting I've done since Oct. while on Met until now - when I cut the dose from 1500 to 500-750.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
Water can make my BG go significantly lower; by increasing blood volume, I think...good when BG's high, but of course could be bad when it's too low already!

OTOH, ravenrose has mentioned (on other BG threads) that sometimes when people get those feelings, they assume it's hypoglycemia but it might be something else, like low blood pressure.

Or maybe we're missing sodium & other electrolytes when we go long periods without eating.
Makes sense all around. Thanks for the thoughts.
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:47 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Well folks, I have been reading & studying in depth about this on a website that Shelbyla recommended and I am going to quit the fasting through to lunch until I can have a saliva test for my cortisol. I have pinpointed that I believe I may be stressing my adrenals and that the nausea could have an underlying factor.
Be looking forward to your results with you, Sunday.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:08 PM   #196
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I've lowered my fats in the last couple weeks too. I don't do "no fat" or even "low fat" but just a lot lower compared to what it was before. For example, I used to pour on olive oil or use hunks of butter without measuring. This didn't hurt my weight loss, I guess because I was doing a lower -moderate carb but it was affecting my hormones something awful
Can you tell me (or point me in the direction of some articles that explain) how a high-fat diet affects hormones?
(Yes, I know about Google...but I can get lost for hours if I do that!!!)

Quote:
for me, a lowER fat, moderately carbed diet is King. Not only theoretically, but every time I actually DO it that way I get such positive results.
I have to say that, even though I have diabetes, I feel like I lose weight better when I eat some carbs. They don't *seem* to set off cravings...not even the next day. I also feel so much fuller when I eat them. For example, a salad doesn't really fill me up, even if I put lots of cheese & olive oil on it; but if I throw on some croutons, or eat a few crackers or a small piece of bread with it, it feels like a real meal & I am so much more satisfied! I'm always concerned that if I eat carbs, I will have "false" hunger in a couple of hours (I do think that used to happen to me), but these day I usually go 5 hours between meals, and sometimes even 8-10.

I have often thought of starting a thread here in the JUDDD forum, called "How do you REALLY feel about carbs?"
Because while theoretically I think they can cause a lot of damage & inflammation, I them, and my life feels empty without them.
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:32 AM   #197
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I'm still reading the links you gave - thanks again What takes me forever is I have so many tabs open all the time reading stuff and then I get caught up in reading the comments because they are so interesting and helpful too, lol.
Yes, this is me! And then I eventually bookmark these bits of info and put in my Health folder which is so overwhelming. But, oh well!

Quote:
I was doing LC most of the time on J/MUDDD and just IFg. I only raised my carbs much in the last couple weeks, and that was caused mostly by some beans, veg, whole grains, fruits, and the occasional refined stuff. I've lowered my fats in the last couple weeks too. I don't do "no fat" or even "low fat" but just a lot lower compared to what it was before. For example, I used to pour on olive oil or use hunks of butter without measuring. This didn't hurt my weight loss, I guess because I was doing a lower -moderate carb but it was affecting my hormones something awful (and I only just figured it out after 2 years! I'll prob. have to explain my dietary fat/hormone connection in another thread sometime).

I suspect that you and I have been researching and testing the same type or WOE! I have been happy with paleo whole food way of eating, but want to know that it is healthy for me long term. Optimal nutrition is my main goal.

I have been researching and studying "The Perfect Health Diet" by Paul Jaminet & his wife. The diet is a "paleolithic" diet in that it suggests avoiding food toxins such as fructose (sugar), grains other than white rice, legumes and omega 6 polyunsaturated fatty acids. The book is quite specific about the evidence on these toxins. The diet is fine with so-called "safe starches", such as potatoes and white rice. It ends up being a high fat diet by calories as protein and carbohydrates are given generous upper bounds. Coconut oil is praised.

Quote:
But I started getting a thought in the back of my head that this LC/IR thing might play some part in why it seems at least a few people stall quite long and hard on LC.
Wow! This is exactly what I am wondering! Amazing how you begin to see this and I feel that the JUDDD WOE is actually showing me how foods help/hurt in specific combo.

Quote:
Adding - How was the CO affecting your ketogenic diet? Forgive me, I haven't read up on some of this stuff in a while, and my head is so full of things I've been researching it all won't fit! lol.
It is more of how CO while fasting affects you, ....because it is very thermogenic and when fasting it is going to speed up the fat burning in turbo manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
Can you tell me (or point me in the direction of some articles that explain) how a high-fat diet affects hormones?
(Yes, I know about Google...but I can get lost for hours if I do that!!!)



I have to say that, even though I have diabetes, I feel like I lose weight better when I eat some carbs. They don't *seem* to set off cravings...not even the next day. I also feel so much fuller when I eat them. For example, a salad doesn't really fill me up, even if I put lots of cheese & olive oil on it; but if I throw on some croutons, or eat a few crackers or a small piece of bread with it, it feels like a real meal & I am so much more satisfied! I'm always concerned that if I eat carbs, I will have "false" hunger in a couple of hours (I do think that used to happen to me), but these day I usually go 5 hours between meals, and sometimes even 8-10.

I have often thought of starting a thread here in the JUDDD forum, called "How do you REALLY feel about carbs?"
Because while theoretically I think they can cause a lot of damage & inflammation, I them, and my life feels empty without them.
I have learned so much from you PJ! I am of the opinion that for me... some carbs are necessary and I don't rule out carbs, but I also don't eat grains or sugar. I have been eating fiber-rich carbohydrates which also have a low glycemic index. Fiber may help regulate my blood sugar levels by slowing down my body's absorption of sugar. I love, love, love blueberries, pumpkin, kiwi & peaches. I have to figure out ways to keep these in my diet as well. I believe that I can somehow figure this out.

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Old 07-17-2012, 07:08 AM   #198
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Sophie, PJ, & Tina~

The endocrine website that Shelbyla shared with me doesn't have advertising, so I will add it here. It has a wealth of info on thyroid, addrenals, & the endocrine system. I have been obsessed with it lately and really could spend hours reading. If any of you suspect cortisol could be wreaking havoc on your body, this is a great place to research.

Endocrine Awareness Center for Health is a public service charity designed for patients who have diseases and disorders of the endocrine system.

https://eaware.org/?doing_wp_cron
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:30 AM   #199
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I'll prob. have to explain my dietary fat/hormone connection in another thread sometime).

But I started getting a thought in the back of my head that this LC/IR thing might play some part in why it seems at least a few people stall quite long and hard on LC.
Oh Please do explain the fat/hormone connection! I have not looked into that at all (yet). The concept does strike an internal chord with me.

The LC/IR idea is fascinating. I know (a) I could not lose weight if I kept carbs (even from veggies) at or below what LC says is required, and (b) when I stalled, I stalled. I tried so many different things - all within LC theory - and just hope maintenance is as stable as that stall was. Something underlying and unsuspected going on with hormones (fat) and blood glucose - wow - can you hear the internal bells ringing?

Talk more you two brilliant minds!!!!!
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:34 AM   #200
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I'm interested, too, and it rings a few bells. I adored LC initially, but sense my body completed some phase with it and wants to move on. I do feel a bit of a tightrope emerging, though, between what you're suggesting and my addictive response to simpler carbs. Huh. Very interesting. More please.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:59 AM   #201
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I am very curious about Sophie's research on the hormone connection as well.
Thank you for the recommendation of the Relion, I have never tested my BG and really have just begun learning about why I need to. It is very interesting to try and understand why it is important?

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Old 07-17-2012, 09:24 AM   #202
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But carbs don't have to be simple. I don't eat grains or refined sugars/honey/syrup. And yet my UD's are almost always over 100g gross carbs. Lots of veggies, some lower glycemic fruits (I love berries and melons, yum!), nuts, nut butters, nut milks and nut flours. Carb doesn't always equal starch. I also eat sweet potatoes, but rarely eat white ones.

This discussion is fascinating. And I'm going to spend some time on that endocrine site for sure.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:18 AM   #203
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Yes, Tina, that is true. I am eating plenty of avocado, berries, & low glycemic carbs. But, am looking at a way to balance this and eat optimally. I just now saw that you have paleo listed, have you read the "Perfect Health Diet" or heard anything pro or con about it? Just curious.

As far as the endocrine website, I have not ever felt that my thyroid was optimal but as I read further into the adrenals, that is where I learned that my cortisol is most likely too high. I am having the saliva test for this reason!!!

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Old 07-17-2012, 10:56 AM   #204
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Sunday,

Thank you for the link. I bookmarked it and will be exploring it in the days to come.
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:27 AM   #205
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Sunday,

Thank you for the link. I bookmarked it and will be exploring it in the days to come.
I was getting ready send you the link on PM! So thankful to be able to share this! I have learned a wealth of info on my thyroid by reading this site.
OH!!! BTW!!! JUST saw your signature and CONGRATS!!!
You and Sheridan have done amazingly well on JUDDD !!!
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:10 PM   #206
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Thanks! Sheridan's blowing me out of the water, but I'm pretty pleased with myself too.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:41 PM   #207
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Can you tell me (or point me in the direction of some articles that explain) how a high-fat diet affects hormones?
(Yes, I know about Google...but I can get lost for hours if I do that!!!)
I'm frustrated that I had a big post typed out with links and somehow it's gone. Unfortunately I didn't have the links bookmarked but I'll look some of them up again and post later.

My interest was in how dietary fat affects androgens/testosterone, which I know is a main factor in my cystic acne. This info may not help everyone, but then again, a lot of this stuff ties together with metabolic imbalances, whether someone has the "tendency" toward weight gain or acne or something else.

It wasn't even obvious to me until I did a lot of tinkering with my diet recently, and thinking back over my experiences, and then I searched whether there were any studies backing up what I was coming to realize about how fats were affecting me. I'd almost say they are like "drugs" in that higher or lower amounts do different things inside the body. For example, in my case, lower fat raises SHBG (Sex hormone-binding globulin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which is a good thing because it carts away excess androgens instead of letting them roam free and plug into receptors in my skin. Confirming this info was like an "aha" moment although I'm sure there are folks out there who'd be like "duh" but through all these years it only just now all came together for me. It doesn't help how the doctors and derms in my life disregarded diet as having anything to do with acne, and now - I mean just in the last couple months - have I come to realize diet is almost everything. Not just for acne but lots of other important things.

I've waffled around on how important. I mean if it wasn't something important then so many of us I wouldn't have gone on a "quest" of research to find out what I should be eating (whether it be LC or some other diet) or take supplements and so forth, whether for weight loss or longevity or to help with a disease. Over the years I've placed more emphasis on diet and then cynically, almost none on it. But even with what I learned in recent years, I still took diet for granted in many ways (example, thinking veggies were really not important for me in my hardcore LC days). But now I really believe in all these whole, real foods (just for me, not so much fat!) to do marvelous things in the body. Best thing is, when I can feel it and even see it in the mirror!

So I will answer some more posts and be back with the links again this evening.

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Old 07-17-2012, 02:58 PM   #208
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Quick note here on Metformin - Last night I decided to slowly increase it back to a higher dose. I had another weird incident yesterday involving shaking and muddled thinking to the point that I embarrassed myself when paying a bill - made a silly mistake on the check and I've never done anything like that before. Wasn't sure I'd make it home from running the errands I felt so weird (and I'd eaten 2 hours before, not like fasting 15 hours the day before).

Been noticing that a lot since I lowered the Met - that I "need" to eat again 2 - 3 hours after eating a big meal that used to satisfy. Ugh.

So instead of 500 - 750 mg per day, last night I took a whole 500 mg. pill at bedtime. It may just be a coincidence that I slept well for the first time in over 2 weeks. I'll slowly increase back to 1000 and see what happens (Dr. prescribed dosage was 1500 per day).

This a.m. I took 250 (have to increase slow to try to avoid any GI upset) and no shakes or BG probs that I can feel all day! And, it's been over 4 hours since I ate and I'm cool! That hasn't happened so much since I lowered the Met.

I've been on it 7 years and I guess I was just starting to doubt whether I needed it after all (I'm not diabetic) and though it has a long and safe history I know doubts creep in about anything I take from time to time, whether it's an Rx or a so-called natural supplement. But I probably better keep the Met, huh?

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Old 07-17-2012, 03:16 PM   #209
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I'm interested in your findings as I have acne as well, and often wonder how much diet has to do with it.

It does appear that the Metformin is providing you with therapeutic effects. Sounds like a good plan to go back to the higher doses. I'm glad you're paying attention to what your body needs!
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:47 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
I have to say that, even though I have diabetes, I feel like I lose weight better when I eat some carbs. They don't *seem* to set off cravings...not even the next day. I also feel so much fuller when I eat them. For example, a salad doesn't really fill me up, even if I put lots of cheese & olive oil on it; but if I throw on some croutons, or eat a few crackers or a small piece of bread with it, it feels like a real meal & I am so much more satisfied! I'm always concerned that if I eat carbs, I will have "false" hunger in a couple of hours (I do think that used to happen to me), but these day I usually go 5 hours between meals, and sometimes even 8-10.

I have often thought of starting a thread here in the JUDDD forum, called "How do you REALLY feel about carbs?"
Because while theoretically I think they can cause a lot of damage & inflammation, I them, and my life feels empty without them.
Sometimes I've wanted to tell people who are stalled to just eat a carb or two (or 50) and see what happens! Only I refrain because we are under the umbrella of a low-carb forum, and also I'm no doctor, and besides, I only know what works for me.

But what you said resounds with my experience and what I've seen many others post... that carbs aren't the "Big Bad" they are always made out to be. Personally, I stay mostly "low to moderate" carb (it would be high carb to most people doing LC, like between 75 - 200 carbs, depending on the day) and no, I never get cravings unless it's around Tom, but then NOTHING seems to help that so far... even on vLC the Tom-Monster had its way. Though I tried to just do dark chocolate and more LC protein bars back then.

And I SO know what you mean about certain carb foods just making the meal or finishing off the meal to perfection. I mean, what's cheese with crackers? Pizza without crust? A sandwich without bread? (a salad, OK, you got me there, lol). I know like any food or drink, they can be overdone, but on JUDDD we all are learning or have learned or will learn what that limit is for us, and it seems we actually change our relationship with carbs over time, so who knows what we'll be able to eat in the coming days/years.

That thread about carbs you mentioned would be funny and probably quite enlightening and helpful, honestly.

As far as LC and IR, I'm not sure what that means on all levels, but it's apparent that it makes one VERY carb sensitive. If you're eating high fat and low carb, forget about having some pizza and chips, for example. It seems to put the whammy on weight loss... in contrast to us already "carbed up"... and accentuates water retention for many folks.

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