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Old 10-14-2011, 10:37 AM   #1
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Calorie Restriction - JUDDD is a type of CR (just every other day) with same benefits

Hi, I thought it would be good to have a thread on the benefits of calorie restriction (which is what the calorie cycling in JUDDD does) for those who might be swayed to "the dark side" by that information, instead of "just" the prospect of food freedom and weight loss. Muawhaha!

Seriously, for me, one reason I didn't investigate JUDDD sooner was because I didn't know that it could give the benefits of calorie restriction (CR) - I didn't look into it enough to know that JUDDD calorie cycling would have the same effect. I think what little I knew of JUDDD, I just saw it as another diet gimmick and maybe something unhealthy (the idea that I would go out of control on up days and wreck my insulin/hormones by gorging on all the stuff that made me this way in the first place and then try to make up for it by starving myself the next) I had the wrong idea about it all. Now that I have been educating myself I am on JUDDD FOR health

I don't think losing weight is as simple for many people as the usual diet mantra of "calories in/calories out - eat less, exercise more, etc.". While I don't think it's that simple for a lot of people (hence the many diets and frustrated dieters who are doing it all "right" and still not losing), I understand that there IS something about CR itself as opposed to the above diet mindset that seems to change metabolism and the body for the better.

I don't know if I explained that very well and it sounds contradictory. What I'm trying to get at is the body responds differently between regular "count calories" diets and CR, and studies have shown that CR is a whole different animal that improves longevity and health and weight loss. A CR program like JUDDD may do much more for weight loss and health than the usual "count your calories" diet method.

I had read over the years that calorie restriction increases potential lifespan and has other amazing health benefits, but like most of the population, I wasn't going to take up CR willingly in this lifetime, lol. JUDDD seems to be a way to get the benefits and have the best of ALL worlds (like Beeb said before, lol).

So I thought for those who are interested, we could use this thread to post info on CR benefits and articles that we come across. Might make a difference to someone like me who didn't see right away what JUDDD is
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:55 AM   #2
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(actually GREAT thread)! You have said so much, so well here!

I, too REFUSED to look at ANY WOE that would restrict my calories, especially since I had been doing LC and didn't have to worry about the calories (or so I thought )!

I am seeing benefits for this WOE that are just amazing, and not only the weight loss I have experienced. My face is clearer, wrinkles are much less and this I couldn't believe until someone mentioned it to me the other day! My Fibro is less, my energy up, my mind more balanced and clear. I have become a "foodie" again, looking for ways to make my DDs and low cal and I am just a happier person all around!

I am SO glad I kept an open mind and asked lots of questions about JUDDD and with Pat's help and others I was able to figure out how this could work for me, and now I'm never going back to any other WOE! Why would I when I have the BEST of both world and can "have me cake and EAT it, too"!!!
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:56 AM   #3
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Okay, so did you know that Ketogenic diets, stimulates the same benefits as Calorie Reduction. A particular Ketone Produced stimulates the body to repair and preserve the same way as severe calorie restriction. I'll have to go find the name and study that showed that but that's cool I think.

I'm glad I found JUDDD. I'm enjoying the simplicity of it, in that I can still make it My Own Plan. I'm gonna go check my average calories for this week but I've been losing since I started and I wasn't really eating high carb much and I was maintaining so this is bonus!
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:31 PM   #4
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Except I would disagree with the title of this thread where it states that JUDDD is a way of calorie restriction *with the same benefits* as I think that is just not true. I think the benefits far, far exceed simple *usual* calorie restriction plans.

Many people really do not want to believe in calories in and calories out, because if they can't lose weight on what they consider to be a reasonable number of calories for dieting, they believe the theory is flawed. It didn't work for them at the level that it does for many. So it must be that it doesn't always work. But sadly, that usually just means that they aren't going to like the level they'll have to lower to, to make weight loss happen. Calorie restriction does work. It's just that some people have to restrict a whole lot lower than other folks do.

The unhappy truth is that when even resistant people are fed at very low calorie levels, in concentration-type camps for example, etc. even those who are most resistant to weight loss, finally meet their match with calorie restriction and end up scrawny. Everybody seems to have a calorie threshold below which they can't hang onto their fat, even if they want to. It's just that most people aren't willing to lower their calories to that extreme level to make it work for them. And that takes us right back to, if the calories required for them personally to lose weight are lower than they want to go, it's easier to proclaim that the premise is flawed than it is to bite the bullet and endure how low the calories would truly have to be lowered for them, personally and individually, to lose the fat.

So the simple old fashioned way of dieting, simply lowering calories and holding them down, doesn't work too well for some people, because their *low* dieting levels aren't low enough! Hence the joy of JUDDD. While I don't want to eat at 500 calories every day for the rest of my life, I'm perfectly happy to eat at 500 calories today, but feast on 2000 calories tomorrow. But I would abhor having to hold my daily calories down to the mid-range average of those two figures.. 1250 every day.

But a calorie cycling diet plan that can allow for some very good calorie restriction at the same time, seems to be able to produce far greater weight loss results over the standard calorie restriction plans, even when the study subjects consume the same amounts of calorie fuel overall.

Weight loss in general, regardless of how it is achieved, boosts the overall health of the subjects, usually resulting in lowered blood pressure, improved insulin response, less pain in the weight bearing joints, etc. But beyond that, the benefits of calorie restriction really outshine anything else that we've found.

I previously posted an article, or a link, to a current article regarding some advantages of calorie restriction. I'll see if I can find it again.

This is sure the way I intend to continue eating. Easy peasy and great results!
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:11 PM   #5
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I see what you're saying, Pat. I had the wrong idea in my post at top that CR is different than the usual "count calorie" diets - it's *not* different, the problem is just that most calorie counting dieters don't go *low enough* for long enough... and the JUDDD way takes the pain out of CR because of the cycling of up and down days... is that right?
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beeb View Post
(actually GREAT thread)! You have said so much, so well here!

I, too REFUSED to look at ANY WOE that would restrict my calories, especially since I had been doing LC and didn't have to worry about the calories (or so I thought )!

I am seeing benefits for this WOE that are just amazing, and not only the weight loss I have experienced. My face is clearer, wrinkles are much less and this I couldn't believe until someone mentioned it to me the other day! My Fibro is less, my energy up, my mind more balanced and clear. I have become a "foodie" again, looking for ways to make my DDs and low cal and I am just a happier person all around!

I am SO glad I kept an open mind and asked lots of questions about JUDDD and with Pat's help and others I was able to figure out how this could work for me, and now I'm never going back to any other WOE! Why would I when I have the BEST of both world and can "have me cake and EAT it, too"!!!
I'm excited to hear what you said about the other benefits besides weight loss like clearer skin, less wrinkles, etc. I look forward to seeing better skin too! It's improved with low carb, but I'm still holding onto the dream of having good skin.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metqa View Post
Okay, so did you know that Ketogenic diets, stimulates the same benefits as Calorie Reduction. A particular Ketone Produced stimulates the body to repair and preserve the same way as severe calorie restriction. I'll have to go find the name and study that showed that but that's cool I think.

I'm glad I found JUDDD. I'm enjoying the simplicity of it, in that I can still make it My Own Plan. I'm gonna go check my average calories for this week but I've been losing since I started and I wasn't really eating high carb much and I was maintaining so this is bonus!
I may have been under the impression a ketogenic diet was a diet like Atkins or other LC. It's something else?

I think I'm already getting the hang of JUDDD, I'm glad we found it too!
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:27 PM   #8
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Maybe we need that mathematical symbol for "equal to or greater than" in the title?

Pat--while I largely agree with your post, and have to admit I am one of those people who is a bit stubborn about lowering my calories, I also believe that weight gain/uncontrollable hunger is often caused by an imbalance in health: hormonal changes (post-pregnancy, menopause), depression, stress, thyroid problems, undiagnosed diabetes, side-effects to medications, maybe even Omega imbalance, etc. Merely losing weight will not always correct those underlying causes.

And, IMO, it's not just a matter of calories, it's a matter of nutrition; the body may be able to simultaneously lose weight and heal many of the above-mentioned conditions with proper nourishment and without medication; but it can't do the job as well on empty calories, whether it's getting too few or just enough.

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Originally Posted by SoHappy View Post
Weight loss in general, regardless of how it is achieved, boosts the overall health of the subjects...
I would interject, "reasonable" or "intentional" weight loss.
Starvation (you mentioned concentration camps) and cachexia do not boost overall health...I'm sure that's not what you meant but for me anyway this journey is about regaining my health, NOT just losing weight.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:47 PM   #9
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Well, I was just thinking about the differences being greater than the similarities when comparing the two different ways of restricting calories. If you are focused strictly on weight loss, both will usually result in that, certainly when the *magic number* is reached, beyond which the body is unable to resist giving up its fat stores. Although that calorie number is sometimes quite a bit lower than people are willing to hold to.

But I know people who have had difficulty losing weight at a lowly 1000 calories a day, whereas when they hold to JUDDD 500 DD & 1500 UD, they can lose at the rate of nearly 10 pounds a month! So it's both plans of restricting are similar in calorie restriction by the numbers.. each plan taking in 2000 calories every two days, but the JUDDD plan will produce a much faster and easier loss for most folks.

And another thing that isn't the same about the benefits, or the outcome, is that most often, after humans restrict calories continuously for extended periods, as on a standard weight loss diet, their metabolism is triggered to slow down to match the calorie intake. Designed by Mother Nature to work that way, so save us from starving to death during times of extended famine and hardship in finding much to eat. Continually eating fewer calories triggers our metabolic slowdown. Except on JUDDD we don't continually eat at a low calorie level. Every other day is a HIGH calorie day, proving to that inner trigger mechanism that we aren't in any famine at all. So we can lose weight from the low cal days and overall lower calorie levels we're currently eating at, at the same time we're glutting ourselves with calories every other day as though the feast will never end. So no metabolic slow down with this diet. Pretty unusual result in a weight loss diet. And for many, their metabolism is actually increased, so when they've lost the weight, they have to eat at a much higher calorie level than they ever imagined they'd be able to enjoy.

So the two different ways of restriction calories in our diets actually produce some pretty opposite outcomes or *benefits*. Not the same benefits at all.

But the real differences between them that show there are not the same benefits at all come in when you get into the long term health benefits from ongoing calorie restriction from the near-fasting JUDDD Down Days. The *fasting days* are the ones that really trigger the health benefits and differences between the two different ways of restricting calories. All the way from reducing or completely ending asthma symptoms!!! to extending length of life! From prolonging the period of youthful vitality into old age to increasing the body's resistance to cancer! So these two ways of using calorie restriction don't have the same benefits at all. The one may help you lose weight and may well also lower your metabolism. But usually health is at least somewhat improved if a person loses some weight, so there is that... other than that rotton slow metabolism thing. The other one is JUDDD, and it improves almost every aspect of your health if you ask me! Including often booting your metabolism up where it operates better.

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Old 10-14-2011, 01:57 PM   #10
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Metga I hope you find that study I would like to read it. But I read that there are a
couple of inportant differences. First fasting will raise your HGH rember the old saying
starve a cold feed a fever. Then a ketogenic diet may even make you more insulin resistant oh it sure will help you get your blood sugar down but it does not inprove your insulin sensitivity. This modified alternet day fasting does help insulin resistance.

Although some diabetics can't do this WOE I am doing fine on it. I don't know if it's this WOE or the 30lbs I have lost or something else but my blood sugar is a lot better than it was 3 months ago. The only place I have arthritis is in my hands and they feel a world better to. Funny this WOE hasn't helped my spelling any....
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:21 PM   #11
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Pat--
I know, the (purported) benefits of this WOE are so amazing!!! Once I do it for a few weeks, I have a feeling I am going to tell everybody I love all about it! Even the skinny ones, the vegetarian ones, the hardcore BBQers, my neighbor who has had bypass surgery, my other neighbor who has leukemia; it seems like everyone could benefit from this. And yes, it takes discipline and planning, but it's so simple and cheap...and (for non-diabetics, anyway) you still get to eat "normal" food. It won't be like trying to sell someone on LC!

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Funny this WOE hasn't helped my spelling any....
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:23 PM   #12
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The Medical Journal PLOS1, I have no idea what that means, Published the results of a mouse study on the effect of a ketogenic diet on diabetic nephropaty.

Ketone 3-beta-hydroxy-butyrate

in two months the ketogenic mice with diabetics the damage was reversed in their kidneys. and the protective ketone was elevated in the mice with kidney damage more than the ones without damage, so the ones who needed it most.

but the interesting bit was this.

Ketone 3-OHB - A key issue raised but not resolved was the mechanism by which the Ketone diet reversed nephropathy. Maybe it was due to reduction in blood glucose. But previous studies have shown that controlling glucose in diet prevented but did not reverse the diabetic nephropathy, and since complications are caused by increase cellular metabolism of glucose, they hypothesize that part of the restorative effect was mediated by reduction of glucose metabolism. in other words, The reason the kidneys healed was specifically because the mice were running their metabolism on Ketones instead of glucose.

Since Ketones and Ketogenic diets are neuroprotective in a wide range of conditions , that this diet will prevent nerve damage and blindness that comes with diabetes.

The Final Detail, and the point of me typing this all out. We have heard that Caloric Restriction is the only clinically proven way of extending lifespan. the Researchers say " One manipulation that produces a chronic elevation in 3OHB levels is caloric restriction, and we have hypothesized that this elevation in 3OHB may mediate the many of the protective effects of dietary restriction." IOW, we may be able to get the benefits of caloric restriction without going hungry [by following ketogenic diet.]

That's all, my fingers are tired. If you wanna hear a podcast about it you can google Danas Low Carb For Life ( all one word) and look for #17 to listen to the whole thing about the study. or you could look up the medical journal directly

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Old 10-14-2011, 02:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
Maybe we need that mathematical symbol for "equal to or greater than" in the title?

Pat--while I largely agree with your post, and have to admit I am one of those people who is a bit stubborn about lowering my calories, I also believe that weight gain/uncontrollable hunger is often caused by an imbalance in health: hormonal changes (post-pregnancy, menopause), depression, stress, thyroid problems, undiagnosed diabetes, side-effects to medications, maybe even Omega imbalance, etc. Merely losing weight will not always correct those underlying causes.

And, IMO, it's not just a matter of calories, it's a matter of nutrition; the body may be able to simultaneously lose weight and heal many of the above-mentioned conditions with proper nourishment and without medication; but it can't do the job as well on empty calories, whether it's getting too few or just enough.



I would interject, "reasonable" or "intentional" weight loss.
Starvation (you mentioned concentration camps) and cachexia do not boost overall health...I'm sure that's not what you meant but for me anyway this journey is about regaining my health, NOT just losing weight.
We're definitely on the same page with many of our beliefs! I was (OK.. I still am) another one of those people who stubbornly refused to just lower calories. Any time I'd done it, I hated it. But low carb didn't help me lose weight. I did manage to lower cals enough to lose some. JUDDD did the rest. But if I had to just lower calories and eat like that every single day, forget it! I'd still be obese.

I also suspect that many of our eating problems arise from our diet. Because I grew up in a small Iowa town in the 1940's and 1950's, I got to see what most people looked like when they ate just plain regular food, made by wives and mothers in their own kitchens. And I don't remember a single fat person. I know that doesn't sound possible, and I fully realize that I didn't know every person in town, but it wasn't until a new boy joined our class when I was a senior that I saw a fat kid, because he was the only one in school. But soda pop was not sweetened with HFCS back then, and the bottles were a lot smaller, and we didn't get one every day, let alone several every day. ETC. So I do agree with you that a lot of our weight problems, and our resulting health problems, are a result of what we make our diets out of. Lots of our problems have their roots in poor nutrition.

But after several years on these supposedly healthy low carb diets, many are still obese and ill. And the same goes for those who embrace a healthy Mediterranean diet or paleo or whatever. I totally agree with you when you said above ".....Merely losing weight will not always correct those underlying causes....." If eating the proper foods was that easy, and resulted in automatic weight loss and no more malfunctioning bodies, we'd all say goodby to LCF, slim and healed, and that would be that. Obviously what you eat isn't the whole story. And obviously just losing the weight is often not the whole story either. Although that most often goes a long way towards big improvements in health.

You said above, ".....And, IMO, it's not just a matter of calories, it's a matter of nutrition....." but I can only agree to a certain degree, as I've watched people here who eat well for years, damn the calories, they strive for an exquisite level of nutrition, but their great nutrition isn't doing the trick for them. They are still obese, still metabolically resistant, still plagued with eating compulsions and fighting their binge disorders, still having trouble with high blood sugar readings or high blood pressure readings, etc. All of this despite eating what we are all believing is a highly nutritious diet.

So of course, we both agree that a good overall diet is important when people are trying to regain health. But it sure isn't enough for a lot of folks apparently. They still fight the demons.

And here's where JUDDD really does shine. We all get to eat whatever we want to eat on this JUDDD plan, so your idea of nutritious will undoubtedly stand you in good stead. But the ability of JUDDD to help people gain a greater level of health and strength and vitality is beyond just the foods they choose for their menus somehow, truly it is. Nutritious foods on the menu wasn't enough to help most overcome their eating compulsions. But many have been successful with that from following the JUDDD plan.

I think you're really going to love it as much as we do once you get into it, and I think it's going to turn out to be a whole lot more than you are thinking of it right now!

I'm so glad you're here with us! You are a most welcome new JUDDD BUDDD.

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Old 10-14-2011, 03:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Obviously what you eat isn't the whole story. And obviously just losing the weight is often not the whole story either. Although that most often goes a long way towards big improvements in health.

You said above, ".....And, IMO, it's not just a matter of calories, it's a matter of nutrition....." but I can only agree to a certain degree, as I've watched people here who eat well for years, damn the calories, they strive for an exquisite level of nutrition, but their great nutrition isn't doing the trick for them. They are still obese, still metabolically resistant, still plagued with eating compulsions and fighting their binge disorders, still having trouble with high blood sugar readings or high blood pressure readings, etc. All of this despite eating what we are all believing is a highly nutritious diet.
Thank you for such a thoughtful response! I understand where you're coming from a bit better; and really I meant to emphasize that JUST cutting calories, without good nutrition, is a form of slow starvation and will have negative effects on the body, even though the weight loss itself will have some positive effects. The ideal would be to lose weight in such a manner that you only get the positive effects...and JUDDD sounds like it might be the answer!

The phenomenon of people eating a highly nutritious diet but still being sick & obese is a mystery to me, but I've become interested in the following theory:

Our cell membranes function best when made from Omega-3s; in their absence, Omega-6s are used instead and the membrane is less permeable...therefore, perhaps, leading to insulin resistance, leptin resistance, and nutrients and other hormones not being utilized optimally.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:27 PM   #15
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Thank you for such a thoughtful response! I understand where you're coming from a bit better; and really I meant to emphasize that JUST cutting calories, without good nutrition, is a form of slow starvation and will have negative effects on the body, even though the weight loss itself will have some positive effects. The ideal would be to lose weight in such a manner that you only get the positive effects...and JUDDD sounds like it might be the answer!

The phenomenon of people eating a highly nutritious diet but still being sick & obese is a mystery to me, but I've become interested in the following theory:

Our cell membranes function best when made from Omega-3s; in their absence, Omega-6s are used instead and the membrane is less permeable...therefore, perhaps, leading to insulin resistance, leptin resistance, and nutrients and other hormones not being utilized optimally.
Yup, I totally agree with you, 1000%. Like the guy who did the weight loss thing on his Twinkie Diet for a month. Lost weight eating nothing but Twinkies. He lost merely from reducing his calories, but I'd wager his health wasn't significantly improved from the weight loss, and if he ate so poorly for any extended time, he'd fall into great disrepair.

Studies are revealing some interesting tidbits all the time. It seems that almost as soon as we jump on the new findings and embrace the new findings as gospel, along comes something even newer and more exciting, that takes us off at a little different angle, hoping for a little better result.

I have finally adopted a *wait and see* attitude about most of it. I'll be the one watching it all from the sidelines, munching my carrot sticks, little bag of mixed almonds and walnuts, snacking on a cheese stick and chicken legs... and a cookie!
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:45 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by E.W. View Post
Then a ketogenic diet may even make you more insulin resistant oh it sure will help you get your blood sugar down but it does not inprove your insulin sensitivity..

I'm not sure where you got this idea, but ketogenic diets do NOT make people more insulin resistant. Insulin receptors normally become impaired when a constant overload of glucose is in the bloodstream. The overload of glucose signals to the cells that it is time to deactivate insulin receptors, which leads to insulin resistance.

While CR diets have benefits, CR diets that are also ketogenic have additional benefits, particular on brain activity (see A ketogenic diet increases brain insulin-like ... [Endocrinology. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI for a very recent research article). Restricting both calories and carbs increases brain insulin-like growth factor receptor and glucose transporter gene expression. To translate: those are really good things to reduce.

See also Fibroblast growth factor 21 is a metabolic regulator that plays a role in the adaptation to ketosis

I'm a scientist, so I'm happy to translate research if people really want it translated.

Briefly: there are two metabolic pathways that people have evolved to use. One burns glucose. The other burns ketone bodies, and our bodies switch this pathway on if we're not consuming carbohydrates. There's no evidence that using the glucose pathway has any health benefits for people. There is evidence (abundant evidence) that burning ketone bodies has a host of benefits--in particular benefits for your brain. There's some evidence (but it's inconclusive) that calorie restriction and ketosis have similar neurological benefits.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:29 PM   #17
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Pat--
I know, the (purported) benefits of this WOE are so amazing!!! Once I do it for a few weeks, I have a feeling I am going to tell everybody I love all about it! Even the skinny ones, the vegetarian ones, the hardcore BBQers, my neighbor who has had bypass surgery, my other neighbor who has leukemia; it seems like everyone could benefit from this. And yes, it takes discipline and planning, but it's so simple and cheap...and (for non-diabetics, anyway) you still get to eat "normal" food. It won't be like trying to sell someone on LC!
HURRAY!! I just may have a "JUDDD Partner in Crime" soon! I have shouted to the world how much I love this WOE and it will be nice, especially on LCFs, to have another feeling about and telling about JUDDD like I do!

I CAN'T WAIT!! Been reading this thread and I'm kinda got lost with all the science talk but what I seem to be hearing is exactly what I have felt from almost the beginning:

JUDDD IS A VERY GOOD THING!!

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Old 10-14-2011, 08:35 PM   #18
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When the term "ketogenic diet" is used, especially in research, is there a certain percentage of fat that is standard?

For example, the ketogenic diets used to prevent seizures in epileptic children is something like 90% fat...

...whereas (it seems to me) most "low carbers" don't stick to any particular fat %, and many do more of a high protein, moderate fat diet than vice versa.

So my question would be, is the average low carb diet truly ketogenic?
Or does is need to be a certain percentage of fat to reap benefits such as the reversal of nephropathy (post #12)?

I happened across this article a few hours ago, and it seems relevant to the last couple of posts; it claims excess protein can increase insulin resistance:
Cell Metabolism - Nutrient overload, insulin resistance, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase 1, S6K1

ETA:
Thanks, Beeb! We're gonna be, like, the Jehovah's Witnesses of JUDDD!
I actually started suggesting it a couple of weeks ago (before I got brave enough to try it)
to LCFs who were plateauing or frustrated--if it seemed like they could handle the calorie restriction--
because it seems so effective and beneficial!

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Old 10-15-2011, 07:15 AM   #19
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I'm just throwing it out there with no references, but I think the reason Excess Protein could increase insulin resistance is because Excess protein would have to be converted to Blood Glucose and blood glucose requires insulin to be pushed into most cells and if those cells are already suffering insulin resistance then they won't get a break because of the extra blood sugar.

But a Ketogenic Diet is NOT EQUAL to an excess protein diet, and I wish people would stop casually equating them. People on any diet are capable of eating too much protein, it's not an either or. That's like saying Artery clogging Saturated Fats. Too much water can kill you but we dont' warn people against drinking Adequate amounts of water. It's a convenient Lie to keep people from pursuing the more complicated truth.

Another thing that can increase Insulin Resistance is TOO Many Dietary Carbohydrates. Let's see the studies on that and then warn people that a High sugar/starch diet is dangerous. Wait, if we do that then we are Quacks!

In the mouse study the mice were given a diet of adequate protein and High Fat and Low Carb, I didn't hear any ratios, it would be more detailed in the article itself. A Ketogenic diet would NOT increase Insulin Resistance if it it did not result in more blood glucose that the body needs. the Blood sugar control in addition to the presence of Ketones, and the fact that the body tissues that can will use Ketones instead of glucose will help to heal the insulin resistance of those tissue cells.

A ketogenic diet really is any diet low enough in carbohydrates to produce ketones. And we all know that percentage of carbs varies from person to person. Atkins didn't mention Ratios, EFGT has 60%Fat and <25% carb suggestion, but it's definately HighFat, Adequate Protein, and Low carbohydrate. I think when they do studies they err on the side of Higher Fat and Lower carbs just to be safe.
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Old 10-15-2011, 07:21 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
When the term "ketogenic diet" is used, especially in research, is there a certain percentage of fat that is standard?

For example, the ketogenic diets used to prevent seizures in epileptic children is something like 90% fat...

...whereas (it seems to me) most "low carbers" don't stick to any particular fat %, and many do more of a high protein, moderate fat diet than vice versa.

So my question would be, is the average low carb diet truly ketogenic?
Or does is need to be a certain percentage of fat to reap benefits such as the reversal of nephropathy (post #12)?

I happened across this article a few hours ago, and it seems relevant to the last couple of posts; it claims excess protein can increase insulin resistance:
Cell Metabolism - Nutrient overload, insulin resistance, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase 1, S6K1

Jenny, you're exactly right: most LC diets aren't particularly ketogenic, because protein levels stay high, and excess protein can indeed lead to insulin resistance, just as excess sugar can.

The classic ketogenic diet contains a 4:1 ratio (by weight, not % of calories) of fat to combined protein and carbohydrate. (This means a 90% calories from fat--very high). Most people, even epilectics, can't do this for long. But if you use medium-chain triglycerides (MCTs), such as coconut oil, for at least half your fat, then getting 60% of your calories from fat will keep you on a ketogenic metabolic pathway. And this is MUCH easier to achieve. Half my fat comes from coconut oil; half comes from other sources. About 60% to 75% of my calories come from fat; the rest come from small servings of protein and LOTS of veggies and berries.
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Old 10-15-2011, 07:36 AM   #21
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Thanks Tiva! I have MCT oil on my shopping list for that reason.
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:01 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by metqa View Post
..........But a Ketogenic Diet is NOT EQUAL to an excess protein diet, and I wish people would stop casually equating them. People on any diet are capable of eating too much protein, it's not an either or. That's like saying Artery clogging Saturated Fats. Too much water can kill you but we dont' warn people against drinking Adequate amounts of water. It's a convenient Lie to keep people from pursuing the more complicated truth..........

I sure did like this. ^ ^ ^

I got so frustrated telling people it wasn't a HIGH protein diet, it was a completely adequate and necessary amount of protein diet. And it wasn't a HIGH fat diet, it was a diet that had it's caloric makeup being highest of fats.

I guess that would be like doing a water fast for a day and it becoming a HIGH water diet.
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:12 AM   #23
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Could someone take a quick look at my numbers and tell me if I'm doing a ketogenic or other? I have always been confused on protein because some school of thought says high protein and others say keep fat higher. If too much protein can contribute to IR, I don't wanna overdo it.

I like to keep the % at... fat: 60-80%... protein: 19 - 35%... carbs: up to 15% (though it is higher on my UD).

I find it hard to keep the ratios in those ranges perfectly at each and every meal so I hope it's OK if it balances out for the total food at the end of the day, or close enough.

As an example, the meal I just had of coffee with cream, sausage links, egg and 1/2 c. hash browns with a T. ketchup:

fat: 56 g. (70%) protein: 21 g. (12%) carbs: 33 g. (18%)

Higher carb at one meal than I'm used to, but I hope all the fat and protein helped offset the insulin release... is that proper thinking?

Thanks

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Old 10-15-2011, 09:03 AM   #24
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Sophie, I know there will be others in here to help you with this.

Being in ketosis isn't a state I know too much about.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by SoHappy View Post
Sophie, I know there will be others in here to help you with this.

Being in ketosis isn't a state I know too much about.
I know that eating in those % put me in and kept me in ketosis, but I think I am confused about "ketogenic" and the lowEr protein talk.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:06 AM   #26
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My Unprofessional Opinion, Sophie, but I don't think that, if you aren't already insulin resistant, a low carb diet is going to make you more insulin resistant unless you are doing something extremely wrong!

From what I've heard about JUDDD the idea is that you get the benefit of Low Calorie and also the benefit of Normal Metabolism from normal calorie intake. So it would have to be okay to average out the macronutrients. it might be hard to keep the ratios each and every day, each and every meal. So I think you are fine if your days total is in the range you shoot for.

Today I just had Bacon, Egg, and 4 pancakes (LC) and my ratios are 66%F, 18%P, and 16%C, but when I eat that apple later, it will spike my Carb% but when I eat my dinner the Fat and Protein will overtake the Carb % and things will average out.
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:39 AM   #27
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I did look up some of the references to that mice/nephropathy study, and couldn't find the nutrient ratios.

I didn't state this in my previous post (although I was trying to think how to word it); but I question whether a LC diet, even when someone is producing ketones, really compares to the 4:1 ketogenic diet in terms of health benefits. My guess is NO, or the epileptic kids following it would have a little more leeway.

I don't mean to quibble or suggest that we should all try that ratio, but if it really reverses kidney damage I would like to know the details!!!

It's like when you read a "study" about LC diets (and therefore, by association, Atkins) being "bad for you", and then find out that the subjects were eating 200g/carbs a day. It just doesn't compare to what Atkins or most LC plans really are.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:14 PM   #28
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Oh, of course the weight reduction ketogenic diets don't hold a candle to the epileptic ketogenic diet, but they still have their benefits, just for different things. the epileptic Ketogenic diet is intended to be Medical Therapy with the concentration of ketones acting as strongly as epileptic drugs. their outcome has nothing to do with weight loss or heart health or insulin resistance. they are trying to change the chemistry of their BRAINS. if it weren't for their seizures they'd be eating just like everyone else.

Ketogenic diet restriction for weight reduction or blood glucose control doesn't need to be as high as that for epileptics. the point of a ketogenic diet for reduction is to reduce the amount of glucose flooding the body and to give the body a chance to rest from glucose overload, and to burn fat, and to keep tryglycerides low and to reduce chronic elevated Glucose which can damage the arteries, and ..... you get the idea.

These are some of the many direct benefits of a ketogenic diet for weight reduction or blood sugar stabilization. You don't have to be broken to experience these benefits. A simple blood test can show the difference in Tryglicerides from a SAD diet to a LC diet. Its common medical knowledge that the body doesn't burn fat when insulin is elevated, blah blah. So to say that the lower ratio of ketone production on a LC diet doesn't have the same health benefits as a Epileptic Ketogenic diet is true, but it's an unfair comparison.

You can't say you don't get the same health benefits as an epileptic child because you aren't epileptic and cannot possibly realize the same benefits. You cannot gain the same health benefits as a diabetic with liver cell death if you are not diabetic with a dying liver. in the mouse study the rats that weren't diabetic did NOT produce as much of the protective ketones as the diabetic mice. Because it wasn't necessary to produce it. They didn't need to heal anything.

I don't have the details, I wrote the title of the medical Journal that published their study. but here is the link to the Journal article and details for you. Reversal of Diabetic Nephropathy by a Ketogenic Diet Have Fun. It's rather dry. I'm sure Tiva would happily translate anything confusing???

Quote:
PLOS ONE:Reversal of Diabetic Nephropathy by a Ketogenic Diet
[...]At 12 weeks of age half of each genotype were placed on a ketogenic diet (5% carbohydrate, 8% protein, 87% fat). The remaining animals were maintained on a standard AIN-93M-based high-carbohydrate control diet (64% carbohydrate, 23% protein, 11% fat).[...]
ETA:

Quote:
Discussion:
[...] In contrast to previous studies in which good glucose control prevented, but did not reverse, nephropathy in a model of Type 1 diabetes [2], in the present studies the ketogenic diet reversed nephropathy, as reflected by albumin/creatinine ratios, after it had developed in models of both Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes. The reversal of functional nephropathy was associated with robust normalization of expression of genes induced by oxidative and other forms of stress. In contrast to the complete reversal of nephropathy as reflected by albuminuria and gene expression, histological evidence of nephropathy was only partially reversed in the model for Type 2 diabetes (kidneys from the Akita mice were not available for histological analysis). This suggests, perhaps not surprisingly, that functional and molecular aspects of nephropathy reverse more quickly than morphological aspects of diabetic nephropathy.[...]

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Old 10-18-2011, 06:36 AM   #29
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You said above, ".....And, IMO, it's not just a matter of calories, it's a matter of nutrition....." but I can only agree to a certain degree, as I've watched people here who eat well for years, damn the calories, they strive for an exquisite level of nutrition, but their great nutrition isn't doing the trick for them. They are still obese, still metabolically resistant, still plagued with eating compulsions and fighting their binge disorders, still having trouble with high blood sugar readings or high blood pressure readings, etc. All of this despite eating what we are all believing is a highly nutritious diet.
You are totally talking about me here (and I know several others). Started lowcarbing December 06, went from 232 to 182, then stalled, for years. Anytime I ate more than 1500 calories, lowcarb, I put on weight. I kept with lowcarb because it eliminated my hypoglycemia, but it didn't help me lose weight. I was eating SO much more healthy than anyone around me, for years, but was still about 90 pounds overweight (I settled around 200 pounds mostly between 2007-2010).

The same thing happened to me on Weight Watchers from 2001 to 2005- went from 184 to 141, then stalled out for months, following within points, doing "plateau busters" with zero effects. Kept regaining weight, coming back, losing 3 pounds in the first three weeks and then zero weight. Even worse on WW I felt starved and hungry all the time. I chose so many carby foods, and they just didn't work for me to keep me feeling full.

Hcg finally got the weight moving again. I had never wanted to do something that extreme, but at a certain point, you figure what the heck! Nothing "reasonable" and "balanced" worked.

And what I like about JUDDD is you get the benefit of the lowcalorie, without some of the nastier side effects such as being cold/tired all the time. Hopefully we aren't kicking in big changes to our leptin levels that makes maintaining a weight loss so difficult. And since it's calorie focused, you can make the composition of your diet lowcarb, high protein, whatever works for you.

It would be nice if they did some studies of JUDDD. I'm not sure it's exactly quite like regular calorie restriction - but in a good way.
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:04 AM   #30
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Y'know it's interesting PaulaBob, because in that mouse study I keep rambling on about, After they had the mice on LOWCARB for the length of the study, they found that the diabetic mice got better but didn't lose weight. So a diet that leads to health doesn't necessarily also lead to weight loss. But someone commented that they'd rather be healthy and overweight than skinny and sick.

It would be nicest, though, to be a healthy weight and Healthy to boot!!
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