SEPT. JUDDD/ Alternate Day Diet

[Leo41]

I know you were all agreeing! That's when I realized that I was "preaching to the choir."


I must admit that I would not post my comments on the Main Lobby because it would incite a furor from exercise addicts who would be convinced that I was opposed to exercise. This is clearly a highly intelligent group

[giJ]

Well, of course we are

[Ilpirata]

well i shouldnt have expected my first DD in over a month to be EASY RIGHT?

I feel uber hungry!
I'm going to eat my last (and biggest) meal as soon as I get home from work.

So far I've had:

B- coffee w/ half and half

L- egg white salad from TJ's (100 cals)

D- will be 1.5 cups cooked green beans and 3 large eggs scrambled in pam with some hot red chili sauce


Its not exactly NOM NOM NOM food but I think it will be filling enough...
And then I'll reassess after my weekend out of town. I just CANNOT go out of town weighing 197!!!

[BillB]

Hey everyone...

--Leo...just want to say that I am "joining the choir" to agree with your post about exercise. I don't especially enjoy any of it--but I am *so grateful* to feel well enough to exercise again...it's hard to describe.

--Kisha...I hope you make it through this DD. I imagine you are beyond frustrated. Can't think of anything helpful to say...wish I could!

I've made it through almost 3 weeks of DDs at 500 cals or less. The calculator on Dr. J's website says I could have 800-900 cals on DDs. I think this would be an easier number for me to maintain, so I am thinking about upping the DD cals. (Thoughts on this?)

The best thing about alternate day, for me, is that I am less hungry on UDs. I am experiencing better portion control than *ever* and I feel pretty good. Today, I logged 2200 cals, including over 300 cals of nutritional oils (today's and tomorrow's). Before doing alternate day, I was averaging over 3000 cals a day.

For the month, I am at 1700 cals a day (2400 average daily deficit) and 66% fat, 27% protein and 7% carbs. I am not due for a weigh-in again until the end of October, but I am sticking with the plan indefinitely.

Thanks everyone...

--bill

[Ilpirata]

Originally Posted by BillB

Hey everyone...

--Leo...just want to say that I am "joining the choir" to agree with your post about exercise. I don't especially enjoy any of it--but I am *so grateful* to feel well enough to exercise again...it's hard to describe.

--Kisha...I hope you make it through this DD. I imagine you are beyond frustrated. Can't think of anything helpful to say...wish I could!

I've made it through almost 3 weeks of DDs at 500 cals or less. The calculator on Dr. J's website says I could have 800-900 cals on DDs. I think this would be an easier number for me to maintain, so I am thinking about upping the DD cals. (Thoughts on this?)

The best thing about alternate day, for me, is that I am less hungry on UDs. I am experiencing better portion control than *ever* and I feel pretty good. Today, I logged 2200 cals, including over 300 cals of nutritional oils (today's and tomorrow's). Before doing alternate day, I was averaging over 3000 cals a day.

For the month, I am at 1700 cals a day (2400 average daily deficit) and 66% fat, 27% protein and 7% carbs. I am not due for a weigh-in again until the end of October, but I am sticking with the plan indefinitely.

Thanks everyone...

--bill

Hey Bill...

Yes I think you SHOULD up your calories as per the calculator. Just be sure you aren't overestimating your "activity level on there" and then follow it. For the JUDD induction you SHOULD be doing 500 max as you have been but once thats over I'd go by the calculator. After all, your calculator numbers will be getting lower as you get smaller

Good for you for your sticking with it!

[GME]

Man Kisha, that really stinks. I feel terrible for you.

Do you think some other plan might work better for you? South Beach or something? I don't know what is out there these days. I have been LCing for so long I don't even peruse the diet section of the bookstore these days.

Could you be allergic to something? I wish I had an answer for you.

[Leo41]

Bill-

I agree with Kisha (as usual). Go up on your DDs to your calculator number now that you've done the 2 weeks at 500. It will save you from any burn out on the plan (that can come from trying to do too much).

I also think that you're experiencing one of the benefits of the plan in terms of UD calories. We naturally are eating less than we did 'before,' and that helps with weight loss. Just don't deliberately deny yourself if you are hungry on an UD.

You're doing great and have a terrific attitude!

[BillB]

Kisha and Leo,

I always choose the lowest activity level on those calculators, because I don't have any illusions about my sluggish self or my sluggish metabolism. I also am pretty sure I don't burn as many calories as the calculator says I do (it's not me, right?)....

This is my concern: if I am only consuming say 2200-2500 cals for UD--and 20% of that is about 500... Will the difference between UD and DD be significant enough if I increase to 800 cals on DD? (I am waiting for Dr. J's book to arrive from Amazon...if I am gonna do his diet, I should at least read his book, right?) What I *don't* want to do is slow down my evil metabolism, don't want to get myself back into the habit of eating when I am not hungry.

Thank you both for helping me with this. You're like my LC family!

--bill

[BillB]

In case this data might help someone, my fasting blood glucose levels have come down to 105-115 with after-meal peaks in the 140s. This is down from 218 fasting glucose in July. I lost no weight from July until mid-August even though I was on the max dose of Metformin and doing LC with no slips. From mid-August to mid-September, I was down 21 pounds. I started toying with alternate day the last week of August, just to see if I could do 500 calorie days.

I am dying to see a BG reading under 100.

--bill

[giJ]

Originally Posted by BillB

In case this data might help someone, my fasting blood glucose levels have come down to 105-115 with after-meal peaks in the 140s. This is down from 218 fasting glucose in July.

Bill! That's AMAZING!!!!

As far as how many calories you should eat.... I'm a little torn. If you're not feeling deprived on the 500, there's a part of me that says "stick with it" (of course, my DD is supposed to be 370 on the 20% of calories thing). I'm concerned that part of your UD control is because of your DDs, and that if you increase your DD by 60-80%, you'll wind up increasing your UDs. You seem to have naturally done the 20% thing....

Maybe try it for a week at the higher level and then see how you feel? I know you only weigh every few months, and I'd hate for you to make the "wrong" decision and not know until late October.....

[Whitlin']

Thanks for the info, Bill, that is helpful to know - you have really had a success there and it's great you were keeping good records. So you attribute very little to Metformin but much more to Alternate Day eating?

Exercise - it is interesting that calorie limits make more scale difference than exercise, but I agree with the idea of doing exercise for SHAPE and fitness rather than scale number, anyway. Here's one great truth - the fastest, easiest way to exercise off the candy bar's calories is to avoid the candy bar.

Pulling for Kisha in her dd today.

I reached 600 and stopped. Yay, me.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by Whitlin'

So you attribute very little to Metformin but much more to Alternate Day eating?

Hey Whitlin'....

I didn't mean to downplay the significance of Metformin. I was surprised (and a little disappointed) at how long it took to start working, but it has been very helpful for me. I am not so sure that it's helping me with weight loss, exactly,but I *know* as my blood glucose levels have come down, I have felt better and been more active. Too, supposedly Metformin lessens insulin resistance... It's a synergistic thing, I guess.

The whole reason for success for me with Alternate Day is....calorie reduction. I was already doing LC, but clearly just eating too much.



--bill

[BillB]

Originally Posted by Whitlin'

I reached 600 and stopped. Yay, me.

Yes, yay you! Little victories are so satisfying. And you are so close to goal!



--bill

[snaggle]

Bill, I tend to agree more with giJ, and would be a bit nervous about jumping up from under 500 to 800-900. I would add in 100 cal one week, see what happens with the weight. If you are still losing at an acceptable rate, then add another 100 cal.

To me, a lot of the juddd concept is the spread between up days and down, but I also think it is really important to do your own calculator. I think most calculators of bmr are
overstating calories. Many of us overweight folks have compromised metabolisms and just will not lose with those numbers. Throw something like hypothyroid, or menopause in to the mix and it gets even worse. The most important starting point for any diet, I think, is having a real knowledge of what calorie level is your true maintenance level, based upon your experience with your body, not from some chart or online calculator.
Once you have that, then you can do your own calculator. Here is how I do it:
Take your daily maintenance metabolism rate, then take 500 per day off that for a 2 lb a week loss, then average out that number for a daily DIETING caloric intake. For the alternate day diet, you need to then double that to equal your two day average. Use 20% of that for the down days and the remaining 80% is what you can have on the up days. By doing this method you are assured that you still average out to a good caloric average for weight loss.

For me, I maintain at an average of 1700 cal. even with exercise 5x per week.
Losing calorie average needs to be 1200, or 2400 in two days. 20% of that is 480 for
my down days, so I get 1920 for my ups. I found that if I stuck to this, I was losing.
My hunch is that many folks overestimate the number of calories they need to maintain.
With JUDDD, this would mean you are getting too many on both the ups and the downs.
I wish I could have the 2200 cal up days that Dr. Johnsons calculator says, but I gotta be real!
Good Luck to you. You have made it through the hardest part.

[Leo41]

Bill-

I agree with Snaggle that we each have to find our own way with number of calories. Since I have a compromised metabolism, I know that I don't burn the number on any calculator. But I also know that it helps to change things up. For example, I lose on 400 cal DD/1400 cal UD, but every month or so, it really helps me to have a high UD of about 2000 cal. I could never do that on a daily basis, but it seems to help every month to 6 weeks.

The suggestion that you try increasing your DD by 100 (to 600) was helpful, it seems to me. It's not too radical, but it will give you a little more room. Then if you occasionally go to 700, it won't be bad because Dr. J says in his book that after the first 2 weeks, an extra 100 on a DD here and there is not a problem. (He was advising us not to abandon a DD if we went over our limit a little.)

I also have another suggestion for you--about exercise. Since you are trying to lower your BG, you should consider regular, mild exercise. My sister has type2 diabetes, and she was amazed that when she just walked each evening for about 40 min, her BG went down dramatically even though she hadn't changed her eating at all. Her doctor said that exercise is very, very helpful in controlling BG. Perhaps you're already doing something like this, but I wanted to mention it in the event that you're not.

[NoSugarShell]

Originally Posted by Ilpirata

well i shouldnt have expected my first DD in over a month to be EASY RIGHT?

I feel uber hungry!
I'm going to eat my last (and biggest) meal as soon as I get home from work.

So far I've had:

B- coffee w/ half and half

L- egg white salad from TJ's (100 cals)

D- will be 1.5 cups cooked green beans and 3 large eggs scrambled in pam with some hot red chili sauce


Its not exactly NOM NOM NOM food but I think it will be filling enough...
And then I'll reassess after my weekend out of town. I just CANNOT go out of town weighing 197!!!

Good Luck Kisha....hang in there. I had my first DD yesterday in a while and it was challenging, but I ended up with a total water fast and felt great this morning. I have been gaining too and my thyroid is completely wacked right now. I totally stopped taking anything, because I was feeling so bad on the synthroid/cytomel combo. All this going on with natural thyroid just sucks!! I feel like even if it all gets worked out, it will be temporary and we will all be facing it again in the future. At this point, I am desperate and have started supplements, going to try acupuncture, etc. I am going to make a doc appt to at least find out where my levels are right now and get a doctor behind me. I think the one I see will be...she is into holistic care as well as hormone replacement. Sorry, guess I just got on a roll....

I just wanted to say hang in there.

[Ilpirata]

Originally Posted by GME

Man Kisha, that really stinks. I feel terrible for you.

Do you think some other plan might work better for you? South Beach or something? I don't know what is out there these days. I have been LCing for so long I don't even peruse the diet section of the bookstore these days.

Could you be allergic to something? I wish I had an answer for you.

I DID order the South Beach book off of Amazon and am going to be reading through it... taking it under advisement so to say. Its definately the plan I'm most likely to try next. Most of me is convinced that JUDD combined with LC is still my answer. I've had good success on it in the past. There are DEFINATELY some problems with JUDD that come up with me but I do know what they are and am hoping to work back to JUDD and losing weight again in October.

Originally Posted by BillB

Kisha and Leo,

I always choose the lowest activity level on those calculators, because I don't have any illusions about my sluggish self or my sluggish metabolism. I also am pretty sure I don't burn as many calories as the calculator says I do (it's not me, right?)....

This is my concern: if I am only consuming say 2200-2500 cals for UD--and 20% of that is about 500... Will the difference between UD and DD be significant enough if I increase to 800 cals on DD? (I am waiting for Dr. J's book to arrive from Amazon...if I am gonna do his diet, I should at least read his book, right?) What I *don't* want to do is slow down my evil metabolism, don't want to get myself back into the habit of eating when I am not hungry.

Thank you both for helping me with this. You're like my LC family!

--bill

ME TOO on the lowest activity level. I'm pretty darn sedentary honestly. The book is a good quick read and I think you'll enjoy it.

Originally Posted by BillB

In case this data might help someone, my fasting blood glucose levels have come down to 105-115 with after-meal peaks in the 140s. This is down from 218 fasting glucose in July. I lost no weight from July until mid-August even though I was on the max dose of Metformin and doing LC with no slips. From mid-August to mid-September, I was down 21 pounds. I started toying with alternate day the last week of August, just to see if I could do 500 calorie days.

I am dying to see a BG reading under 100.

--bill

Frikking awesome. I also like the idea of increasing your DD calories slowly. Like do one week at 600 cal DD to confirm you are still losing then do one week with 700 cal DD and then move to 800 cal DDs if you are still losing on the 700. Great suggestion.

Originally Posted by NoSugarShell

Good Luck Kisha....hang in there. I had my first DD yesterday in a while and it was challenging, but I ended up with a total water fast and felt great this morning. I have been gaining too and my thyroid is completely wacked right now. I totally stopped taking anything, because I was feeling so bad on the synthroid/cytomel combo. All this going on with natural thyroid just sucks!! I feel like even if it all gets worked out, it will be temporary and we will all be facing it again in the future. At this point, I am desperate and have started supplements, going to try acupuncture, etc. I am going to make a doc appt to at least find out where my levels are right now and get a doctor behind me. I think the one I see will be...she is into holistic care as well as hormone replacement. Sorry, guess I just got on a roll....

I just wanted to say hang in there.

OMG!!! You're on NOTHING???? I am still able to get some Armour here though it is almost gone and only available in bizarre dosagase. I'm worried that it will be completely gone soon and if/when that happens I'll be switching to the synthetic combo. I'm already taking Armour with Cytomel (synthetic T3) so I'm hoping the add of the synthroid won't be too to bad.

[Ilpirata]

195.8 this morning after successfull DD yesterday:

Calories 514
Fat 23.5 210 43 %
Carbohydrate 17.1 68 14 %
Dietary Fiber 0.3
Protein 51.3 206 42 %
Alcohol 0.0 0 0 %

SO... The good news is that the scale responded somewhat to my low cal day which makes me excited again about JUDD.

The things that were coming up on JUDD mainly had to do with WAY WAY overeating on UD because I was psyched out about the DD to follow. For the rest of September I'll be just sneaking in DD on days when I know I won't be home much and therefore likely to be successfull. Since they won't be as frequent as regular JUDD I'm hoping to get over the overeating on the day prior. I'm hoping to come back to JUDD three days per week for October.

[giJ]

Originally Posted by Ilpirata

195.8 this morning after successfull DD yesterday:

Calories 514
Fat 23.5 210 43 %
Carbohydrate 17.1 68 14 %
Dietary Fiber 0.3
Protein 51.3 206 42 %
Alcohol 0.0 0 0 %

SO... The good news is that the scale responded somewhat to my low cal day which makes me excited again about JUDD.

YAY!!! Response is good.

Originally Posted by Ilpirata

The things that were coming up on JUDD mainly had to do with WAY WAY overeating on UD because I was psyched out about the DD to follow. For the rest of September I'll be just sneaking in DD on days when I know I won't be home much and therefore likely to be successfull. Since they won't be as frequent as regular JUDD I'm hoping to get over the overeating on the day prior. I'm hoping to come back to JUDD three days per week for October.

Do you track on your UD or just your DD? How do you track? I find that tracking EVERYTHING (even if UD are estimates because I may not know EXACTLY what a specific restaurant uses) helps. Also, a part of the mindset I developed (and that I seem to be losing -- I am hoping to refocus after my mother leaves next Wednesday) is that "there is always the day AFTER tomorrow". That is, I suspect, something that naturally thin people understand naturally. Those of us who are learning to be thin have to learn it.

[Ilpirata]

Originally Posted by giJ

YAY!!! Response is good.



Do you track on your UD or just your DD? How do you track? I find that tracking EVERYTHING (even if UD are estimates because I may not know EXACTLY what a specific restaurant uses) helps. Also, a part of the mindset I developed (and that I seem to be losing -- I am hoping to refocus after my mother leaves next Wednesday) is that "there is always the day AFTER tomorrow". That is, I suspect, something that naturally thin people understand naturally. Those of us who are learning to be thin have to learn it.

I would like to say that I tracked both days but honestly this practice of tracking on UD sort of tapered off during the last month or two I was on JUDD. Maybe because I was stalled? I sort of gave up. My first six months on JUDD were amazing but I took a bad turn for the last two. Its a WOE that is hard for me when I'm not getting great results on the scale. Thanks for your suggestion! My problems with JUDD are definately not unworkable. I just need to develop some good tools and new habits for this WOE.

[GME]

Originally Posted by Ilpirata

195.8 this morning after successfull DD yesterday:

Calories 514
Fat 23.5 210 43 %
Carbohydrate 17.1 68 14 %
Dietary Fiber 0.3
Protein 51.3 206 42 %
Alcohol 0.0 0 0 %

SO... The good news is that the scale responded somewhat to my low cal day which makes me excited again about JUDD.

The things that were coming up on JUDD mainly had to do with WAY WAY overeating on UD because I was psyched out about the DD to follow. For the rest of September I'll be just sneaking in DD on days when I know I won't be home much and therefore likely to be successfull. Since they won't be as frequent as regular JUDD I'm hoping to get over the overeating on the day prior. I'm hoping to come back to JUDD three days per week for October.

Crossing my fingers this works for you again. I'm crossing them for me too (How is she typing with all her fingers crossed you may be wondering).

I don't know WTH it is about overeating on the UDs. I KNOW I'm not going to starve on a DD and there is another UD coming, why does it afftect me so?

[BillB]

Big thanks to everyone for their thoughts about upping my cals on DD. I'm still thinking about it and looking for more data--and waiting for my book.

The data seems to suggest that it's the periods of calorie restriction (for creating a calorie deficit, and turning on the SIRT1 gene) combined with the periods of abundance (to keep the metabolism from slowing down) that actually makes this plan work. Since the *ideal* plan is to fast every other day, then it seems to me that the more restrictive the DDs, the more successful the plan. If someone else interprets the plan differently, I would like to know the other perspectives.

For right now, I think I will stay with the 500 cal boundary for DD. If I start to feel as if I can't maintain that, I will re-evaluate. At the same time, I am going to try to boost my cals on UDs somewhat.

This is *absolutely* a re-learning "how to eat" for me. I have urges and impulses to eat today, but I am not hungry. It's nearly 3pm, and I've only had 190 cals. If I stay with my plan for the day, I will end the day with 380.

Leo...I am working out 30-45 minutes a day with resistance bands and free weights. I also try to walk at least 30 minutes most days. Nothing really strenuous yet. When I get some more weight off, I will be able to do more. I have a bad knee and a bad back...have to be careful. My preferred aerobic machine is the stepper (for some reason, the bikes all hurt my knee and the stepper does not) but the ones that will hold enough weight for me are too expensive. I have been addicted to the gym before...and it was great. I hope I can get that way again.

--bill

[This time]

All....when you start the juddd diet, do you start on an up day or down day......Linda

[Leo41]

Kisha-

I just KNEW JUDDD would work for you! Here's my theory on overeating on UDs (based on my personal experience only). There's been a lot of emphasis on AWF, and I know you were doing some of those. I've only fasted on DDs a few times, and that's when I seemed to have no appetite at all--i.e., I didn't plan for it but just let it happen. However, I found that after a DD of zero calories, I totally overate on the following UD--each and every time.

When I keep my DDs at 350-450, I have absolutely no desire to overeat on my UD, and I can keep it at 1400-1600 easily. So I really suspect that going too low on DDs is pushing you into overeating on UDs. It seems to me that you would want to average no more than 1200 cal daily to lose, and I'd plan my UD calories based on that goal--e.g., 400 cal DD/2000 cal UD.

By the way, if you're looking at other low carb plans, my suggestion would be Protein Power. Even though I think the Eades have sold out with their latest book (money and fame can do that:-), Protein Power remains a gem. It's much easier to follow than Atkins, and to the extent that I follow any low carb plan, that's the one. The book is old, and you can probably get it from the library, but I'd be happy to send you my ancient paperback if you PM me.

[Whitlin']

Linda, I had once assumed that I "started" on my first DD. Actually, that's not exactly right. I had made sure on the previous day that my calories were enough for an UD, so technically, I started then. If I hadn't had enough calories the day before, I think I would have been a very unhappy camper on that first DD, and not given JUDDD a fair shot.

Bill, I like the gradual idea, too. (Meddling now - forgive me) It seems to me that a first step for you in any change of DD numbers is to move to complete 500 calorie days. Seems like I remember noting a lot of yours are 3/5ths or 4/5th of that. Why not a discipline of trying to reach exactly 500 for a week and see how you do, then move up.

Reporting that this morning after DD I was down 2 pounds from yesterday. (Yesterday I was feeling the effects of being sick and reaching for comfort for my tummy undoubtedly bloated.) So now I resemble my profile CW again. I also feel so much better. Glad to hear Kisha was happy with hers, too.

Leo, you may have already answered this, but what do you see particularly in the Eades newer book that disappoints you. I was interested that snaggle was going to follow that and hope she'll share opinions of it. The title certainly is compelling.

[Leo41]

Whitlin--

I need to point out that I have not read the new Eades book but was basing my decision on having read extensive reviews (some highly favorable but which told me negative things).

The cynic in me sees this "plan" as a way to generate revenue rather than some advance on their very, very good Protein Power. Eades has always advocated whole foods, and now this plan is 'detoxing' the liver with 2 weeks of shakes and one meal. It goes on to a couple of weeks of what is basically Atkins induction. I can imagine that anyone who does this plan will lose (if they follow it; it's very, very specific), but would they maintain that loss? Perhaps low carbers like Snaggle will do well because she plans to return to JUDDD when she's finished, but I can't imagine that anyone who returns to a standard American diet will maintain any loss.

If you read some of the reviews on Amazon, you'll see that a big portion of the book is 'recipes,' and even Snaggle complains that the Eades fail to give guidelines for how much protein, carbo, etc. in the actual meals. In fact, the real turn off for me is that Eades apparently said that he could not mention 'low carb' in this plan because his editors told him that low carb no longer would 'sell.'

And according to the reviews, Eades makes scientific claims for supplements, etc. without really explaining. That's disappointing because the strength of Protein Power is the sound science that's presented throughout that book.

I guess my disappointment is tinged with frustration because I was hoping for more from the Eades, since I find Protein Power so sound.

By the way, Snaggle has started a thread here, and you can see how folks are doing on the plan. Just click on the Protein Power link in 'other plans,' and you'll see it.

[This time]

Thanks whitlin

[GrammyPat]

JUDDD Epiphany! Hey guys, I just realized that I've had the best week ever not having to use my inhaler every day! I have emphysema and normally wake up and hit the nebulizer 1st thing in the am. Then I go to work and since I've been getting over an infection, I've had to use my inhaler about 4x at work and then once at home. Well, this is my 3rd week on JUDDD and I did not have to use my inhaler at work at all! That's amazing....and this morning I hit the nebulizer 2 hours after I got up! I had forgotten that one of the side benefits is anti-inflammation especially for the lungs! For me, this is a miracle! Just wanted to post this in case any of you have lung problems like me.

Thanks Leo, Kisha, BillB and mammapo for all of your posts and great ideas - I love reading them and look for them everyday! Tried the chicken broth (low sodium) with hot sauce, vinegar and some artificial sweetener - it was really good! have you guys seen the fiber/bran crumbles that are now offered by GG Scandanavian that you can spinkle on top of yogurt? I ordered some to go with my 12 calorie "cardboard" crackers....LOL. Kisha, congrats on the weight loss on your first DD back! you KNOW this works for you girl! Take care everyone...

[Leo41]

Great news, GrammyPat!!
I know that Dr. J talks about the positive effect of JUDDD on asthma, but it never occurred to me that it would also help with any lung inflammation. I'm so glad this is helping you!

[GME]

Great news on the inhaler (or lack thereof) GrammyPat!

I had my first official weigh in this a.m. I am down 7 lbs from Monday. Not all of the are "new" pounds (several of them presented themselves after a trip to the county fair), but it is one half pound (I take what I can get here) into glorious VFT.

I'm having an UD today and I think I'm going to try MD Sundays and stick to a MWF DD schedule. I think it will work with my work schedule.

I just had a cup of oatmeal and I'm heading out for my long run in a bit.

Have a great JUDDD day everyone!