Thyroid tests are normal?? Are you sure?

[Kaos0100]

One other question...how many carbs should I have per day? Especially on the high calorie days..? Is there a certain range I should stay in?

Originally Posted by nonstickpam107

Well, there's a way to pick up the metabolism though. Calorie and carb cycling (like what bodybuilders do...I brough back my metabolism this way). It DOES take some time and you have to be patient cuz the weight won't 'roll off' right away. But...you have a lifetime now to test drive it, lol.

You would want to really track the calories, and eat six small meals a day (I see you eat five...you're eating like a bodybuilder! good for you). Then you'd make up menues for the week (called 'macros'). Say...um...Sunday, you'd try and get up to 1800 cals (you might even get whey protein powder and put that in cold ice water and shake it up twice a day for 'mini snacks' and just to bring up your cals...they run about 130 cals, 24gms. protein and only 2 to 4 carbs...not soy...whey). So, just doing that... you'd only get like 4 oz. liquid to a scoop of whey powder, and add 260 cals on teh days you want to get up to 1700.

So, you'd go: Sunday, high day at 1700 to 1800, then Monday 1500, Tues. 1500, Wednesday 1300 to 1400, Thursday you COULD go as low as 1200, Friday 1500, SAturday 1500, then rinse, repeat. On the higher days, eat lower fat, higher carbs (like maybe 1/2 sweet potato after your workout, and maybe some oatmeal ...even oatmeal in your shake?), then on the lower calorie days, eat higher fat, and 30 grams carbs, kind of like today was only more protein/fat/

That would keep your metabolism really 'guessing'...I'm sure for the first three weeks, you may not lose anything on scale...but you'd start getting muscle to grow with working out, and by the sixth week, your body would 'let go' of some weight cuz it just won't be able to keep up with you.

Pam

[nonstickpam107]

Karen, Can you get your hands on a copy of 'Protein Power' by Michael and Mary Dan Eades? Some places online sell it for less than 5 dollars...you can get it at library too. It explains the 'science' behind lowcarbing and it also explains that you don't need to be in full ketosis to lose weight...they suggest how many carbs per meal, etc.

If you don't change up the number of carbs/cals per day, your body gets in a 'rut'. Same with exercise...if you don't switch it up to different types of exercises, and different lengths of time...you'll not continue to 'fool' the body into losing inches/making muscle.

I would say if you are eating 30gms. net carbs on a low carb day/higher calorie/fat day, than you might try for 40 to 45 NET grams carb on a higher carb/lower calorie/fat day. But I'm talking just adding in extra veggie, etc. And extra meal here and there since you just have to eat 'smaller'.

Are you doing any weight resistance exercise? I know cardio blasts the fat, but weight resistance would be good for your bones and to build muscle...building muscle may keep you from losing SCALE weight, but it's more compact...you'd lose inches fast.

Pam

[Kaos0100]

PM for you Pam.

Originally Posted by nonstickpam107

Karen, Can you get your hands on a copy of 'Protein Power' by Michael and Mary Dan Eades? Some places online sell it for less than 5 dollars...you can get it at library too. It explains the 'science' behind lowcarbing and it also explains that you don't need to be in full ketosis to lose weight...they suggest how many carbs per meal, etc.

If you don't change up the number of carbs/cals per day, your body gets in a 'rut'. Same with exercise...if you don't switch it up to different types of exercises, and different lengths of time...you'll not continue to 'fool' the body into losing inches/making muscle.

I would say if you are eating 30gms. net carbs on a low carb day/higher calorie/fat day, than you might try for 40 to 45 NET grams carb on a higher carb/lower calorie/fat day. But I'm talking just adding in extra veggie, etc. And extra meal here and there since you just have to eat 'smaller'.

Are you doing any weight resistance exercise? I know cardio blasts the fat, but weight resistance would be good for your bones and to build muscle...building muscle may keep you from losing SCALE weight, but it's more compact...you'd lose inches fast.

Pam

[jennmc31]

Hi Pam I have been reading through this thread and it is very interesting. I am on synthroid 100mcg and my temp still runs at 96.4 and I just can't drop weight. I live in Palm Coast,Fl(by daytona,orlando and jacksonville) and I wondered if there were any good dr's here. Although at this point I will fly somewhere if I need to. If you could give me any info it would be so helpful to me. Thanks!

[nonstickpam107]

Florida is rough. Suggest you PM DiamondDeb...she went to a doctor who will give Armour Thyroid a year (I think) ago...she can give you his name (but be forewarned, like most the docs who do T3/Armour...he has some 'ideas' about nutrition (like no protein/all veggie diet) which you can just smile and keep saying 'No comprendo'.

There is an EXCELLENT, doc who also does Armour/Naturethroid (and also thinks you need nutritional.....what is it with Florida docs who WILL do correct thyroid treatment yet feel they MUST tell you how to eat??!!) in Boca Raton (Dr. Ken Wolinar).

HTH
Pam

[ew1]

Pam, this is interesting. My new chiro (the one with the dog at the office ) has set me up with an exceptional trainer at my gym, I met with him last night. The guy knows the half life of T3 and asked if I was on Armour or Cytomel. Already I like him
www.liampower.biz

He 's going to design 3 different routines for me with my particular physical stuff so that I don't get bored doing the same thing all the time, and will also give me one for home for the free weights and balance ball that I have.

We're also going to work on diet. He is THRILLED that I am already eating lower carb (does NOT want me doing Atkins but PP is fine, knows I need higher carbs for the thyroid thing!) and that I cook my own meals and snacks for work. Looking at 1800-2000 cal a day, I am doing some fitday logs to print off and give him an idea of what I am eating. We're going to fashion 'My Own Plan". Maybe I'll start MY own site, hahahahaha.

I see him Sunday for an hour session to do some physical 'testing' to help him set up my plan.

I am so psyched to do this. You know how you have to be ready to do it?
Anyway, I've threadjacked this long enough.
Hugs,
Elaine

[nonstickpam107]

Well, I personally wouldn't strive for THAT many cals a day (and not gain a couple pounds a week, ha ha) but if he actually thinks a post meno/thyroid affected woman can handle that many...so be it. (My HIGHEST day is 1700 right now...and I lift HEAVY HEAVY). But I've had doctors do that little formula thingie for those who work out and it's 'off' by over 400 to 600 calories EVERY TIME. They don't 'get it'. So..um...be watchful of the calorie number..ok? Now, I'm only 5' 1" so I have to REALLY watch it...I used to be able to get by with more cals but not anymore, heh heh...

I also use my ball and free weights at home, have a killer routine now, heh heh. But I never eat the 'same' any two days in a row...I juggle up the cals and carbs to keep my body guessing.

Pam

[ew1]

Hi there. I am 5' 6" and large framed. I wouldn't be comfortable on 1200 -1500, I'd be hungry. He wants me to start out learning to make sure I am not hungry but know the difference between being full and still 'having an appetite'. We would, of course, adjust that figure down as I, ahem, lose the weight!!
The thing is, I am capable of eating more than that so that range is a good place for me to start.

[nonstickpam107]

Wow..I need to be taller!!! LOL Actually, I CAN get up to 2,000 cals about once every two weeks on a refeed. But then I get to look like Humpty Dumpty for a couple of days (bloat), heh heh. Lucky you to be 'tall' (I know...'tall' is probably over 6 feet where you are, huh?).

Pam

[livin' thin]

Originally Posted by nonstickpam107

If you get BHRT, that's wonderful...but it, in turn, will UNBALANCE the thyroid even FURTHER if you don't also address thyroid levels. And if you have adrenal fatigue, you need to be treated for that before even the thyroid.

So...does this story have a 'happy ending'? Do you have in your hand the definitive testing for Hashimoto's and being treated and balanced for thyroid?

Pam

Hey Pam, Interesting reply. Tell me more about the impact of BHRT on the thyroid. I haven't heard that it could throw off the thyroid. We don't use chemical hormones that would unbalance others. The natural hormones are custom fit to me to replace only the ones that are in short supply and are mostly the precursor hormones that your body uses to make it's total arsenal. Do you have a Web site or book that you recommend for further reading on the impact of BHRT on the thyroid?
The adrenal fatigue is on the mend. I followed the Schwarzbein Principle nutrition plan for burned out adrenals and I'm doing really well. It takes up to 2 years to naturally restore them. So far, so good.
According to the endocrinologist and the thyroid test, my thyroid level is normal. I haven't had a test for Hashimoto yet. No one seems to think that's the most likely root cause of my weight gain, exhaustion and other symptoms that started my quest.

[nonstickpam107]

The very reason you get Free T4 and Free T3 when taking any type of birth control pills or hormones is because it binds the thyroid hormones. Even eating soy binds thyroid hormone. It's no mystery and almost ALL doctors who use Free T's to test and titrate thyroid hormone know this...just scientific fact. So, if SOY or any type of phytoestrogens can bind thyroid hormone in the blood stream, than any type of 'natural' phytoestrogens do the same thing (like Evening Primrose Oil...it can bind a significant percentage of thyroid hormone).

Any good medical text on endocrinology or a pharmacy text on binding hormone in the blood stream will tell you this. And 'normal' (if you've read this thread) may not be 'normal' for you at all.

Pam

[livin' thin]

Interesting. Thanks! I will read up on that and talk to my healthcare practitioner about that.

[nonstickpam107]

Well, your 'healthcare practitioner' may not know much about it. Out of about every 100 endocrinologists, two are GREAT at thyroid (not diabetes). In my state there are two doctors who are thyroidologists (one is a psychiatrist, the other an endocrinologist who also is a pioneer in bio identical compounded hormones). But Dr. Broda Barnes wrote several books um...say....40 years ago about it. Otherwise, most the research clearly states the binding capacity of any phytoestrogens/BHRT/HRT on T4 to T3 conversion.

Pam

[aloise]

interesting video about thyroid on youtube.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQA4Mm1ide4

[livin' thin]

Originally Posted by nonstickpam107

Well, your 'healthcare practitioner' may not know much about it. Out of about every 100 endocrinologists, two are GREAT at thyroid (not diabetes). In my state there are two doctors who are thyroidologists (one is a psychiatrist, the other an endocrinologist who also is a pioneer in bio identical compounded hormones). But Dr. Broda Barnes wrote several books um...say....40 years ago about it. Otherwise, most the research clearly states the binding capacity of any phytoestrogens/BHRT/HRT on T4 to T3 conversion.

Pam

Yeah, all of this research is exhausting. I don't trust the opinion of any doctor because I think they are highly influenced by drug company-funded research and are mostly under-educated in their specialty. I appreciate the input others offer.

[JONAH'S GRANNY]

Pam, these are my latest thyroid results. Endo is sending me again to have more testing done including an ultrasound of my thyroid. My Cortisol testing was inconclusive and now I have to have more testing on it as well.

TSH - .630 (.350-5.50)
FT4 - 1.20 (.89-1.80)
Ft3 - 2.5 (2.3-4.2)

[nonstickpam107]

The FT3 should be about midway or higher of it's range. Poor conversion from T4 to T3. Otherwise, the TSH and FT4 look decent. Did they do anti TPO antibodies? (Not thyroglobulin).

Pam

[JONAH'S GRANNY]

No, but its included in the new order (I think)

Thyroid Antithyroglobulin Antibody
Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO Antibodies)
TSH
T3 Free
T4 Free

Thanks Pam.

[nonstickpam107]

Good. And let's remember that if we aren't replaced with hormones the thyroid (and the rest of our endocrine system) NEEDS, then our conversion can be low too. Also, if you are anemic, then T4 to T3 conversion can be low. But if you had adrenal fatigue, or poor adrenal function...no WAY would the TSH and FT4 be where it is right now (it's that good).

Pam

[JONAH'S GRANNY]

Thanks Pam.

[lmcc]

Hi Pam - i have a quick question for you - i went on armour in Nov. 06 and started with a half grain. I have progressed up to 1 1/2 grains after my last blood draw in Feb. I feel some reflief from my hypo symptoms but i feel like i'm holding on by a thread. I was reviewing my lab results from my tests (Nov., late Dec., and Feb) and the only thing happening is my tsh is dropping. my free t4 and free t3 have literally barely budged (both in lower quarter of the limits for each). so, my question is, is it normal for it to take so long for the armour to move the free t4 and free t3 levels? i am on birth control, which i know affects the binding but is there anything else you can think of... i see my doc again in 2 weeks so we'll see what the labs look like then...

[Capshner]

Hi! I'm outside of the U.S. and need to be referred by a family physician in order to see an endo. The only info I know presently about my thyroid levels is my TSH is 3.1, said to be normal. This is the info off Health Canada's website about hypothyroidism ...


QUESTION:

I have been feeling very fatigued for many years. I also complain of constipation, lethargy, inability to concentrate and weight gain. I have seen several doctors including an endocrinologist; they have tested my thyroid with blood tests on many occasions. The tests always come back completely normal. Yet, I have been reading that these tests are not accurate and that measurements of body temperatures are more accurate. Moreover, I understand that I should be taking thyroid medication for these symptoms despite normal thyroid function tests.

ANSWER:

Actually the routine blood tests for thyroid function are extremely accurate and precise. Moreover, the blood tests for thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) (which is the pituitary hormone that stimulates the thyroid even more when it is failing) is extremely accurate. It is the first test to rise when thyroid function is at all low. Indeed, it will go up even before the thyroid hormone levels are detectably lower. This is a category termed "compensated" hypothyroidism. In that state, the thyroid hormone levels are still normal, the patient still feels normal but the TSH is already an indicator that the thyroid gland itself is in trouble. In your case, with a normal TSH, hypothyroidism is completely ruled out.

It is important to remember that many other conditions can mimic hypothyroidism, most particularly chronic anxiety, depression and stress. Some psychiatrists use T3 (Cytomel, triiodothyronine) but usually not thyroxine, with antidepressants. How useful this combination is, remains to be proven. It is true, however, that such people who do not have thyroid disease can "benefit" from taking thyroid medication. The reason they are benefiting is that the thyroid medication is a "placebo". The drug itself has no intrinsic benefit to them, but if people think it is going to help them, then it does. It is like fooling yourself by taking a pill that looks identical but is completely inert. If we convince ourselves that there is some good in it, then we feel much better. Sometimes this placebo effect is truly remarkable and long lasting. More often, however, it lasts for only a short time and disappears. Taking thyroxine when you do not need it, is also of some danger and cannot be encouraged.

Finally, skin temperatures are of no value in diagnosing hypothyroidism despite assertions to the contrary by some. It has been clearly proven they are totally misleading and really useless. While it is true that patients with hypothyroidism do have cool skin, so do people with many other conditions. These include people with poor blood supply, severe stress, anaemia and others.

Are there any people here that may be in a similiar situation that could advise me?? I can't just go to a specialist and ask for a complete thyroid testing, as I have to be referred, which my doctor will not do. I am positive that I need to be treated. ANY responses would be immensely appreciated!

[nonstickpam107]

Originally Posted by lmcc

Hi Pam - i have a quick question for you - i went on armour in Nov. 06 and started with a half grain. I have progressed up to 1 1/2 grains after my last blood draw in Feb. I feel some reflief from my hypo symptoms but i feel like i'm holding on by a thread. I was reviewing my lab results from my tests (Nov., late Dec., and Feb) and the only thing happening is my tsh is dropping. my free t4 and free t3 have literally barely budged (both in lower quarter of the limits for each). so, my question is, is it normal for it to take so long for the armour to move the free t4 and free t3 levels? i am on birth control, which i know affects the binding but is there anything else you can think of... i see my doc again in 2 weeks so we'll see what the labs look like then...

Yes, hormones aren't like other 'meds' say...like antibiotics. Armour drops the TSH FIRST, and then can take quite some time to up the FT's themselves.

To give an example: I was on 75mcg. of T4 synthetic when I was moved over to Armour...and started with one grain Armour (60mg.) split (most of us split our Armour dose into two equal doses, I take half in the am, the other half about 2pm). I waited three months, had my FT's checked again, and then went up 1/2 grain (now on 90mg.). I then waited about four months, RE CHECKED FT's levels, went up another 1/2 grain...was good for about six months, re checked, went up another 1/2 grain. I ended up taking 3 grains summer (with an extra 1/4 grain in winter...some in cold climates need to add more in winter)...

and now...I'm no longer taking BHRT (weaned off of BHRT after hysterectomy last April...I'd been on it for about seven years post meno)...therefore no BHRT to 'bind' my FT's...I'm now taking 2 and a half grains.

But, yes, it took over a year for me to realize full optimization with Armour.

Pam

[nonstickpam107]

Capshner, Since your med/health is 'free' in your country (and this goes for the UK too...my sister is over there, married a man in that country and comes HERE three times a year to be treated)...they aren't going to do the expensive FT's and all (I think that's why..) anyway, there are very few doctors in Canada who will do FT's OR will give Thyroid (that's what Armour Thyroid is called in Canada). But...ah hem..I DO have a recommended doctor in Canada who does do natural thyroid...I have to go get it from my files, and I'll PM it to ya.

ETA: You have a PM.

Pam

[lmcc]

thanks pam - you mentioned this was going to be a long haul when i first posted in oct. last year and you weren't kidding!! and yes, i do split my dosage. i tried taking it just in the a.m. and i was a wreck by about 5 pm. thanks as always for the advice!

[nonstickpam107]

You're welcome, as always. (psssst: most of us don't start feeling a whole lot better till we get over the 2 grain level..).

Keep a journal too if you get time...I didn't notice the 'subtle' improvements until I went back in my journal. We all have those days when we feel that NOTHING has helped, or nothing has improved. Goodness...I go back through my journal and I no longer have: extreme ongoing constipation, frozen shoulder, joint aches and pains, plantar fasciitis, feet feeling like I'm walking on pebbles first thing out of bed in the morning, not being able to formulate the word I'm thinking of, and the list goes on.

Pam