Thyroid tests are normal?? Are you sure?

[inatic]

I dont believe that the borage oil would interfer. The EFA"s that Pam recommends are Health From the Sun, Total EFA's. They contain borage oil. I dont know what effect it would have on hair loss. That shouod stop when your properly medicated for thyroid .

[TinaBina]

Thanks Ileen!

[TinaBina]

I just clicked on the link, the Total EFA's contain EPO

Since beginning my treatment 3 years ago, I have lost more hair than ever, I swear it was the synthroid, I just switched to armour this week, so I am hoping it helps with the hair loss.

[nonstickpam107]

It's a balanced oil...there are people DROWNING themselves in EPO!!! And maca, and cohosh, etc. The taking of EPO with thyroid is up to the doc who dispenses YOUR meds. If you take enough to 'bind' some of the med, then you just go to the doc and say "I take THIS everyday, so I'm going to need more med looking at my FRee T's", lol.

I know women (meno) who are trying to take 20 times the EPO in the balanced oils on the market....that's who are going to bind all their thyroid hormones. Just like taking birth control pills...if you are taking those or HRT (bio identical or otherwise) then you are effectively binding all your thyroid hormone and those individuals will need a HIGHER DOSAGE. I absolutely, totally REFUSE to 'humor' a doctor who doesn't know how to treat OPTIMALLY by not taking essential things that just happen to 'bind' my thyroid hormones....why should I when I can take 'x' amount more of T4/T3 to compensate and be healthy (after all...my OWN thyroid, if it worked, would spit me out more hormone in response to the binding).

Hair loss is from undertreated thyroid and low steroid hormones too.

Pam

[voj]

what do you mean by "bind" my thyroid hormones?
Jean

[carrielyn]

Pam,
Thanks for the link to the Texas Thyroid Group. I have noticed something though. It seems I read a lot about taking my Armour in the morning an hour before eating anything, but there seem to be many people who split their Armour taking the first with breakfast and the remainder after their evening meal. Can you explain why this difference?
Thanks for the information.
Carol

[nonstickpam107]

Jean, soy, HRT, birth control pills, EPO, and certain cruciferous veggies (UNcooked) bind the hormones in the blood (before they actually reach a level to HELP us). So, if you are on HRT, eat a lot of soy (soy has phytoestrogens...estrogen is binding to the thyroid hormone and won't allow it to be used, it will pass out of the body before it 'works') then you should keep a close eye on your Free T's (FT4, FT3) NOT Total T's (TT4, TT3)...Total T's show what's in the body, and Free T's show what's actually USABLE by the body. My Totals look really GREAT ...high in range, etc., yet when they look at the Free T's...they are lower, midway for FT4, and almost highest range in FT3 (showing that something ...my HRT probably and other meds are binding the thyroid hormones before I get to use them) This is WHY we go by Free T's.

Carol, Armour has both T4 and T3. T4 has a half life of two WEEKS (meaning the dosage of T4 you take today, isn't reaching good level until a week and a half to two weeks) and T3 has a half life of about four HOURS (meaning the T3 you took at 6am is GONE and used up by 10am/11am). So,,,I and others split my dosage to get the energy from the T3. Plus I'm on 3.5 grains and that MUCH T3 hitting my system all at once is just like taking speed at 6am and then wanting to lay down and take a nap by 2pm, lol. Oh, I wait an hour to eat (if you take the Armour sublingually you don't need to wait) and NO calcium or fiber for four HOURS around that med if you do NOT take it sublingually (under the tongue, or let dissolve in cheek). Eating after taking T3 will really slow it down too. So, if you feel 'hyPER' on a new upped dosage of T3, you might want to eat WITH it till it 'settles'.

Pam

[voj]

Thanks for explaining tbinding to me, Pam. I appreciate that.

Just got home from my best friends funeral. What a bummer. She had a pain in her side about 5-6 weeks ago, found a malignant inoperable tumor on her liver and she just basically slipped away in the last week.

I'm waiting now to hear from my doctor. I've been very patient and not bugged her. I had the blood test last Friday so hopefully I'll be hearing that she is going to up my dose from 2 grains. It's been a month. Wish me luck!!

I'll be thinking of you on Saturday. Jean

[TinaBina]

So, it would be okay to take the EPO as a balanced oil & have my doc adjust my thyroid dose accordingly? I was taking the brand that Mary Shomom recommends on her website, but stopped it before I finished the bottle - thing is I think it was helping. I'm making myself crazy over this, as I've lost so much hair, especially since this past fall - I'm in panic mode, I can't even style it anymore & my hairdresser told me to stop highlighting it, cause it is so dry & brittle. I haven't had it cut since November, yet it looks shorter and shorter everday.

[nonstickpam107]

Yeah, I was seeing dime sized bald spots before my doc FINALLY got me on enough Armour. Are you taking biotin? That helps too, as does getting the other hormones balanced too (estradiol, progesterone, testosterone...and testosterone can be a culprit too).

Yeah, if you are taking anything like that, just get your copies of your labs, make sure that the FT4 is midway of range and that the FT3 gets above that...some need it very high, some just midway of range and a little higher before they see hair growth. As long as the doc will titrate meds accordingly, then you'll be fine. Anything you take, like oils, goitrogens, you want to take constant...as long as you take the same thing every day your med dosage can be titrated accordingly.

I mainly caution post meno women on EPO...some of them take four and five TABLESPOONS of it during the day for hot flashes, etc....and that's just enough to really bind their hormone! If it's in a mix in a capsule, or a teaspoon of liquid oils...I don't think that's going to hurt.

Pam

[TinaBina]

Oh, thanks Pam. I'm taking biotin also, 2000 mcg daily along with the 200 mcg that are in the twinlab daily one w/iron that I take.

[MAMZELLE]

Just marking for email alerts. Got all normal thyroid test results [without Free T3] and very surprised, so want to read this thread after link for the page was sent to me by a friend.

On second thought, might as well post my numbers. I went to this Endo especially to get further tested [after TSH tested normal] and the Dr. agreed to have BOTH Free T3 and Free T4 tested even though he said "Free T3's aren't accurate" and didn't want to do it, but he agreed to do it anyway along with the FT4, after I kept insisting and pleading. Today he told me results on the phone, before they send a copy in mail, and said ''I have good news for you.... your tests are normal'' and I said how can that BE with all my symptoms! Then I asked for the numbers and asked WHERE'S the FT3 and he said he didn't do that, only "Free T4 and "TOTAL" T3 and T4", and when I reminded him of the discussion we had and that he DID AGREE to do it anyway, he said maybe that's not BACK YET but along with the Estrogen and Progesterone I also asked for but none were done. I've been VERY upset about this ande don't know what to do from here. I feel like my trip and a whole week of waiting for the results were WASTED! Would love opinions of the below... especially you Pam. I didn't read past the first 4 or 5 posts yet, and just wanted to post my numbers first, next to the general normal ranges, but a copy of my results were mailed today and should arrive in a couple of days, with this particular labs ranges. THanks.....>


Free T3 (Free Triiodothyronine) : 2.3 - 4.2 didn't take!

Free T4 (Free Thyroxine) .8-2 ng/dl .... Mine 1.31

TRO.... Mine 27.8

TOTAL T3: 80 - 220 .....Mine 148

Total T4 (Total Thyroxine): 4.5 to 12.5 ... Mine 8.3

TSH..... Mine 2.19

[nonstickpam107]

TSH can rise a little if you are menopausal...and can go up and down by three whole points in any given day. NYC folks that I know personally are getting a PCP and then doing 'phone thyroid care' with docs several states away. NY is almost impossible to get an ENDO who does thyroid (they do diabetes...and FT's are more telling than totals...the 'don't go to this doc for thyroid' lists are rampant with NYC doc's and endo's).

You'd be better off going to a DO, but you look about good ....nothing way out of range and with a TT3 THAT high I would suspect very low estradiol and progesterone and testosterone not thyroid.

Pam

[MAMZELLE]

PS to above. I want to REPEAT that those are not my lab ranges but I put what I was told were the general range areas to go by for now, since the actual hard copy of my results will be arriving in a day or two then I'll post it, but MY numbers are correct, given me on the phone by the doctor....but I'm assuming that most of you are probably familiar with the ranges in most labs anyway, so I posted those guides temporarily. They were the suggested ones by a very knowledgeable friend who seems to know more about all this and for so many years.... than Doctors.

Oh, hi Pam.... I hadn't seen your post above till after I posted this one, but I'll leave the first part about the range warning anyway so no one will make a mistake about those being MY lab's ranges, since it seems to matter, though you you seem to think they're close enough to the norm? I would have simply edited them out but I just woke up and too late to 'edit' my long post above [don't know why that works differently, since Diabetes, Blood Pressure, etc. ranges are the same no matter WHAT lab is used, but I'm not familiar with all these Thyroid issues yet, only diabetes which has been in my family my whole life]......

Regarding your last sentence above... but I thought that without the FT3, no conclusive determinations can really be made about the thyroid, so your saying it's looking ''about good'' is that SOMETHING to hang onto about my Thyroid, at least, and that not ALL was useless in the tests that I DID have?......

Also IF it's the estradoil, progesterone and/or testosterone problem am I in trouble, or possibly LOOKING at a serious problem ahead? What does that mean? And what's the next step. It's so HARD to find Doctors, getting to them without transportation and many other factors I'm struggling with [right now I AM on an 'edit' so better hurry and post. Thanks Pam. [ALSO..... I meant TPO not TRO...... I always make that typo :-(

[nonstickpam107]

NO, all lab ranges are DIFFERENT for the thyroid tests. Please go and get a hard copy of your labs (always, always, always get a hard copy of your lab results, complete with ranges).

I can give you over 25 'different' sets of lab ranges used by 25 different labs in just MY area, so your 'knowledgeable friend' would have to work at the lab the tests were done at in order to offer up ranges.

Pam

[MAMZELLE]

PAM.....[had to take time out to test sugar and BP].... no I'm not menopausal. Is the phone thyroid care on *800* numbers? Is there any way I can do this/get the numbers? I can't even get time to talk to my OWN doctors, another big frustrating problem I'm having..... even the endo, after waiting a whole week, I waited for another 3 hours yesterday constantly calling back [because he's only there on Tues], and THEN they couldn't find my results and of course HE couldn't talk to me without them, and then he had NO TIME to continue when I asked what I do NOW since HE says my Thyroid is 'normal' and I have to find SOME reason I'm having these symptoms for so many YEARS, and also reprimanding him in a nice way..... that he promised he WOULD take the FT3 after our LONG conversation about that very thing! It was very hard to hold my temper and stay in control. I can't take this anymore. I really NEED telephonic help any time I have questions and need to pick up the phone immediately to talk to someone. But they don't have OUR tests, or do we mail copies to them? How does this all work? I'm extremely interested.......

I didn't know that about what you're saying about NY docs, and thought I was just not lucky enough to hit the right ones YET...... but have learned FAST that this is true but I suspect not limited to only NY. Even called my deceased mother's Doc whom I knew very well when taking care of her, but he doesn't believe in adjusting her insulin [I'm not on any meds] according to her numbers so I have stayed away from him, but did call him in absolute desperation to possibly even line HIM up because I'm having so much trouble with the others and this medical center and their neglect and not caring and not even LISTENING to me! My mother's doctor said ""all I need is the T4 and TSH [at that point I had only had the TSH which was normal] and he said FT3 isn't necessary, and if the TSH and FT4 are normal, then I can be sure i'm normal"".....he INSISTS my symptoms are from my smoking. with a normal TSH, not having the Ft4 yet...... so imagine what he'd say if finding out THAT'S normal TOO! I'd be up against the same opposition with him as well. I'm totally lost.

[MAMZELLE]

PS..... I ''always, always, always'' DO now get hard copies sent to me. I already have my original general blood work [three pages] which I insisted they send me when I was there and even filled out a form for it, having my first visit on Feb 19th...... but the thyroid tests I just had March 21st [last Tuesday] and since the Dr is only in on Tuesdays they kept telling me they have to wait for him to come back THIS Tuesday for him to sign them before sending to me, but his assistant DID mail it yesterday [even called me back after I spoke to the Dr., to re-confirm the address] that's why I said above that I'll have it in a couple of days. My friend just gave me a general idea because I insisted on having SOMETHING to compare my numbers with when I got them yesterday since I know NOTHING about this and because she might not be home to ask when I did, so she obliged me. Not her fault......and she TOLD me I would only know when the hard copy reached me. I couldn't take that much time away from the Endo to ask him his lab's "ranges" too, I was lucky to even get MY numbers! :-( But you seem to think my numbers are OK..... even without the lab's ranges?

[nonstickpam107]

Hon, I'm going in for surgery on Saturday, and probably won't be released for a couple days (even wheedling the doc, lol). So, just have them either FAX or mail you the copies from the testing.

Smoking does, INDEED ruin and destroy the thyroid (the primary reason I had to quit...in order to reduce the symptoms and medicate the thyroid...there are several women on this board who have had to do the same...I was a 30 yr. smoker and DETESTED quitting...ha ha....but...in order to have a 'quality of life' with thyroid disease, I did it. Seven years quit on Saturday...it was ever so hard....).

The "new' range for TSH is .35-3.0 and TSH means NOTHING. Free T4 and Free T3 are the actual measurements for the hormones of the thyroid. Going 'towards' menopause and having low estradiol and progesterone will also give same symptoms of thyroid disease and if those hormones aren't balanced, the thyroid hormones become unbalanced.

When I get back on my feet from the surgery (OVCA) I will look up some of the people in NY and try and get a 'fix' on which doc's would be willing to work with you if needed. I DO know that MY doctor (a very noted thyroidologist and patients actually fly here from all over to see him) will NOT even start the treatment process with someone who smokes ( at first I was very upset by this, but after he showed me proof of what it does to our thyroids and other hormones....I had to bite the bullet...I was so VERY hardcore smoker too....and I NEVER tell anyone "Oh, it was so easy" cuz it wasn't).

Pam

[voj]

Pam,
A quick question if I may?
I got the blood test results today. This is what they look like:
TSH 4.98 Range 0.34-5.60
FT4 0.60 Range 0.58-1.64
FT3 325 Range 230-420 PG/DL

Now if I am learning the correctly, the TSH is way too high - should be below 1.0
FT4 should be midlevel of the range (1.1)
FT3 should be 2/3 of range. (480)

How would you adjust the Armour? I have been taking 1 grain in AM and 1 grain mid afternoon for the past month after changing from Synthroid to Cymetel to Armour if you recall.. I am anxious to see what my doctor is going to prescribe and I would like to be able to comment to her where I would like to see the levels be.

I sure do appreciate all your knowlege. Thanks, Jean

[voj]

Oops, that FT3 I posted as 480 is wrong I see. Would it be in the 350 range?

Jean

[carrielyn]

Pam,

I was on 90 MG Armour and my doctor had me drop down to 75 MG because my TSH is low. I'm feeling better with this but I do tire easily as the day progresses. If I understand this correctly, if I take 25 MG morning, noon and evening under my tongue (yuck, if this stuff tastes as bad as it smells that won't be pleasant ) spreading the T3 over the course of the day I might have more energy through the day?

That would be lovely indeed . Please let me know your opinion, I will certainly give it a try if there is the slightest possibility.

Thanks and success on your surgery.

Carol

[nonstickpam107]

Jean, you are ready to go up in dosage. My FT3 must be all the way to highest range for me to feel well, and for that to happen, my TSH is .00034 (not a typo) and the FT4 is a little below midway of range. You've got a long way to go.

Carol, you are underdosed. See? This is what happens when a doctor goes by the TSH once they give you Armour. No, splitting it isn't going to help much....you are way underdosed. If a doctor goes by TSH giving Armour...you will NEVER get to where you should be...EVER. And there isn't 75mg. of Armour dosage....are you cutting up pills to get to that? Docs who do Armour go by the Free T4 and Free T3, TSH goes down right away in some, and that doesn't tell you what your actual hormone levels are. SEE>>>this doc has YOU thinking that you go by TSH and now you are asking about TSH...TSH has NOTHING to do with giving Armour (or T3)...once you give the hormone, then you need to get FT's every six weeks until the FT4 is midway of lab range (or about there) and the FT3 is above midway of lab range. This is precisely WHY I tell people not to wheedle the doc for Armour if the doc has NO experience with it, OR is a TSH worshipper. Please look at the list on the Texas site of doctors that people recommend, there are quite a few really good ones now that know how to dose.

Thanks for the good wishes all.


Pam

Pam

[voj]

Thanks Pam. I think my doctor is on vacation this week so will hopefully hear from her the first of next week sometime. It's going to be interesting to say the least!

Here's hoping for great success with the surgery.

Jean

[MAMZELLE]

I can't stop smoking just because someone tells me too... even a dr. I've started cutting down the last two weeks drastically [to LESS than half which is a MIRACLE for me in itself] with Allen Carrs book, but down to NOTHING is not in my IMMEDIATE future with all that I'm going through now with other things .....also in ADDITION to medical ones. See my thread under addictions ''ALLEN CARR'S METHOD'' and the whole story is there. I'll answer the rest of your post in a while, Thanks Pam

[nonstickpam107]

Some have to move on it slowly...I wasn't 'telling you to quit'...I was discussing MY quit. I know how difficult it is...especially with being multi disabled as I am. Funny you should mention Carr's book....it made me start smoking again for a couple of weeks....everyone has something different that helped them...for me it was the smoking cessation forum at about.com. Heck, I had to take up different 'hobbies' since I'm pretty much 'homebound'...that was the hardest part..not being able to just get up and walk away from myself.

Pam

[MAMZELLE]

Oh, I KNOW you weren't telling me to quit.... i was talking about not being able to tolerate even a DOCTOR telling me to quit or he/she won't treat me. That's what I meant when saying EVEN a dr....[not you. Guess I didn't word it right].

Why did Carr make you start smoking again when reading it?

I'm pretty much homebound too, crippled only by exhaustion, fatigue, no incentive and no transportation and not being able to stand too long or walk to far that's why I want to get to the bottom of WHY and what's causing this......

I can't shop, or do errands, it exhausts me and have everything delivered, and can only manage restaurants, and little activity, though I did walk about 10 blocks or more to a restaurant with my friend who went to the doctor with me, then lunch but going home always in back, shoulder and neck pain and barely making it to the door at the end. So it's hard always being home and not smoking with also being diabetic and not being able to have the foods I love EITHER... smoking is all I have left!

Might as well have my mouth sewn up if I'm not going to use it....and be fed introvenously instead. Though I'm always multitasking and never stop mentally I smoke along WITH that especially on the laptop.