P2 Cheating, settle a debate

[jgr]

So my husband and I were discussing extended Phase 2 (longer than the average round, but nothing like some of those 7-8 month rounds that have been mentioned on here) and cheating. We were having a debate. Opinions please.

One of us thinks that while OCCASIONAL cheating will obviously make the phase longer (or require more than one round) but that it will make phases 3-4 less of a shock on the body and easier.

The other one of us thinks that even occasional cheating will make the long term effects of the diet not as successful, and that weight gain will be more likely. The first person says this isn't accurate as long as you don't go hog wild on P3 and P4. The first person also states that not cheating at all on P2 is so rare, that if the second person's thoughts were accurate that no one would ever be able to keep the weight off successfully.

So, what are your thoughts? And any stories to share? If the first person is normally correct, how often would an occasional cheat be ok before the second person's thoughts would be correct?

[Kateenie]

First of all, this protocol was never intended to be a "diet" - it was developed as a hormonal therapy to cure obesity. A HORMONAL therapy. If people want to mess with a hormonal therapy by cheating, more power to them, but it makes me pretty nervous.

As far as cheating in P2 and why you gain, you are eating 500 calories PLUS cheats, plus 1500+ calories your body is dumping into your system from your fat stores due to the hCG. A cheat will impact that badly.

If cheating is a big problem, then you need to get your head into it before you even attempt it. This is a hormonal therapy and I can only imagine the damage we do to ourselves screwing with it. If you need to cheat, then something else is going on. This protocol, if you are doing it correctly, should NOT leave you hungry. If you are eating for other reasons than hunger, this protocol is not going to fix that. That is work you need to do for yourself, before embarking on this protocol.

[jgr]

When I used the term "diet" I never meant to offend or push buttons. We (husband and I) both know that it is not meant to be used as a fad diet. I used the term diet because that is what I have always heard it called - "The HCG Diet"

Our debate was not over justifying unplanned cheats or whatever. It was simply over if it would truly make it easier on the body/less of a shock when carbs, sugars, and starches are reintroduced if it received them occasionally or if it would cause the weight to return once the "program" (is that a better word?) is complete.

It sounds like our debate offended you, and I apologize for that. By sharing it, I was simply looking for thoughts/stories and not to offend anyone

[jabbok]

Originally Posted by jgr

So my husband and I were discussing extended Phase 2 (longer than the average round, but nothing like some of those 7-8 month rounds that have been mentioned on here) and cheating. We were having a debate. Opinions please.

One of us thinks that while OCCASIONAL cheating will obviously make the phase longer (or require more than one round) but that it will make phases 3-4 less of a shock on the body and easier.

The other one of us thinks that even occasional cheating will make the long term effects of the diet not as successful, and that weight gain will be more likely. The first person says this isn't accurate as long as you don't go hog wild on P3 and P4. The first person also states that not cheating at all on P2 is so rare, that if the second person's thoughts were accurate that no one would ever be able to keep the weight off successfully.

So, what are your thoughts? And any stories to share? If the first person is normally correct, how often would an occasional cheat be ok before the second person's thoughts would be correct?

From my experience I used cream in my coffee everyday on P2 I couldn't stabilize in P3 with the last round I never had cream/coffee and I am stabilizing in P3 I am within my window and have been since I started P3.

When you cheat on P2 it will take you longer to finish as it usually takes 3 or 4 days to lose the gain, in my opinion I would rather follow the protocol and be stable in P3 then having to lose the same weight over again.

[moonriver]

My husband tends to cheat a little. He has not stabilized easily in any of his P3 rounds.

I tend to be strict protocol and have stabilzed easily in P3, hormones of perimenopause not withstanding.

[Kateenie]

I have no reason to be offended. I just want to make sure people realize that when they cheat, the number on the scale is probably the least of their worries.

We are all diet pros here because we have an addiction and cheating just feeds that ( no pun intended). Until your head is in it enough to trust the protocol fully and follow the rules, it's just temporary. Of course, it also depends on the cheat. Is it a few extra ounces of protein, or ice cream or chips? Big difference.

Before you decide which method of cheating is best (or the least harmful), try to figure out why you're doing it at all. Maybe you don't need to cheat after all.

[buttah]

Originally Posted by Kateenie

I have no reason to be offended. I just want to make sure people realize that when they cheat, the number on the scale is probably the least of their worries.

We are all diet pros here because we have an addiction and cheating just feeds that ( no pun intended). Until your head is in it enough to trust the protocol fully and follow the rules, it's just temporary. Of course, it also depends on the cheat. Is it a few extra ounces of protein, or ice cream or chips? Big difference.

Before you decide which method of cheating is best (or the least harmful), try to figure out why you're doing it at all. Maybe you don't need to cheat after all.

Amen. For myself, I just got to the point where cheating made no sense. I am here to change permanently. And step one is getting the weight off. Which means... why would I want to slow down the process or counteract what HCG is doing in my body by eating something that prevents it from best doing what it's supposed to do? Step two is keeping it off. That's where a "cheat" needs redefinition, for me anyway. A cheat has become a planned treat, eaten only when it's what I really want (not emotional eating), and only when I've made "room" for it in my day/week/etc. by making only healthy choices the rest of the time, and by going right back to healthy choices after I've had it. And not stuffing my face on it. I see people here who "cheat" repeatedly while on P2, and while I "get" it, I really don't get it. Why not wait until you're really ready to make lifetime habit changes?

[Lifeisgood]

You are not on the protocol long enough to warrant cheating in my opinion. I want it to work as well as it can, the short amount of time I'm on it. I haven't cheated in any of my rounds and I stabalized well in all P3's. I've lost 75 lbs so far following what works. I'm determined to change my life and it is changing - it's so exciting!

[buttah]

Lifeisgood, while I agree with your point, I disagree that any length of time on protocol makes "cheating" okay (if that's what you meant, which you might not have). I really think most of us here need to move away from the idea of an indulgence or
"cheat" or food celebration as a some kind of reward for dieting successfully. (This rationalization is something Robin Woodall talks about in her chapters on emotional eating, and it's a sure fire recipe for re-gain or yo-yoing.) If you eat healthy and to remove hunger (and not to satisfaction or, worse, fullness), having occasional "treats" (hunger allowing) won't cause re-gain. At least not if they don't lead to a domino reaction of over-eating again.

I'm also not sure who you were addressing when you said "you are not on protocol long enough..." The OP, I assume? I'm not currently on protocol.

[Lifeisgood]

Originally Posted by buttah

Lifeisgood, while I agree with your point, I disagree that any length of time on protocol makes "cheating" okay (if that's what you meant, which you might not have). I really think most of us here need to move away from the idea of an indulgence or
"cheat" or food celebration as a some kind of reward for dieting successfully. (This rationalization is something Robin Woodall talks about in her chapters on emotional eating, and it's a sure fire recipe for re-gain or yo-yoing.) If you eat healthy and to remove hunger (and not to satisfaction or, worse, fullness), having occasional "treats" (hunger allowing) won't cause re-gain. At least not if they don't lead to a domino reaction of over-eating again.

I'm also not sure who you were addressing when you said "you are not on protocol long enough..." The OP, I assume? I'm not currently on protocol.

I meant that cheating is not ok - that's all. I follow protocol to the tee.

[jgr]

So now that I've heard some opinions, I will share more details.

My husband is not doing HCG but researched it with me. He supports me doing it, but is under the assumption that by allowing a random cheat meal once every three or four weeks would keep someone on this diet from shocking their body when they move on to more calories in P2 or more food groups in P3.

He understands that it would ultimately make the round longer, or force one round to turn into two, but that it would be easier when it was time to transition over.

I personally worried that cheats, even random ones, could cause long term effects (such as not stabilizing later on because this is suppose to reset something in the mind- can't spell it lol) but his concept was that almost everyone will end up cheating at times and if a random cheat was going to sabatoge the whole thing that no one would ever be successful on the diet. He also thought a planned cheat meal once every three or four weeks would keep people on path more.

I didn't want to say who's opinion was who's due to not wanting to influence anyone's thoughts.

[jabbok]

Originally Posted by jgr

So now that I've heard some opinions, I will share more details.

My husband is not doing HCG but researched it with me. He supports me doing it, but is under the assumption that by allowing a random cheat meal once every three or four weeks would keep someone on this diet from shocking their body when they move on to more calories in P2 or more food groups in P3.

He understands that it would ultimately make the round longer, or force one round to turn into two, but that it would be easier when it was time to transition over.

I personally worried that cheats, even random ones, could cause long term effects (such as not stabilizing later on because this is suppose to reset something in the mind- can't spell it lol) but his concept was that almost everyone will end up cheating at times and if a random cheat was going to sabatoge the whole thing that no one would ever be successful on the diet. He also thought a planned cheat meal once every three or four weeks would keep people on path more.

I didn't want to say who's opinion was who's due to not wanting to influence anyone's thoughts.

If you plan a cheat then you are planning to fail, if you follow the protocol then you will succeed.

That is my opinion and not everyone will agree with it but I think if you want to succeed at this then follow the plan otherwise you should do something that will fit in with your lifestyle.

[torister]

Originally Posted by jabbok

If you plan a cheat then you are planning to fail, if you follow the protocol then you will succeed.

That is my opinion and not everyone will agree with it but I think if you want to succeed at this then follow the plan otherwise you should do something that will fit in with your lifestyle.

I completely agree.

[Shrinking]

Originally Posted by jabbok

If you plan a cheat then you are planning to fail, if you follow the protocol then you will succeed.

That is my opinion and not everyone will agree with it but I think if you want to succeed at this then follow the plan otherwise you should do something that will fit in with your lifestyle.

I agree.

The only way your "cheating" could work is with a PI (planned interruption which is cycling off hcg then restarting without loading). If you feel your body does need the break into P3 for a few days, then you want to return to P2 that's about the only "allowed" way to do it. I was thinking of a PI myself but some of the more experienced HCGers warned me of the slow losses and set backs that come with it. Honestly the weight loss motivates me to keep it clean. I've had a lifetime of yummy food and a couple months on hcg is a drop in the bucket. If you can't commit to the protocol don't start. This weight loss plan isn't for the weak-willed.

[buttah]

If your husband researched HCG, he would know that your body is not living off the 500 calories alone, but rather on the 500 calories + stored fat. That's why HCG works so well. Cheating once in a while (with something that's probably not good for in in the first place) in order to prevent "shocking" the body when it's off HCG is pure nonsense. And sounds like exactly the kind of rationalization that helped most of us become overweight in the first place. But to each his own.

I followed protocol to a tee, and have stabilized beautifully. Nothing I've ever done has worked this way. My body has never lost fat in these places before. Dr. Simeons knew he was on to something. If he felt cheating belonged in the protocol (to prevent shocking or for any other reason), I'm sure he would've included it. As for keeping people on plan, I think when you're ready to stay on plan, you stay on plan. Nothing will stop you. At least that's been my mindset.

(And FWIW, what prevents the body from being "shocked" at the end of a round is the 3 weeks of no sugar/carbs, then gradually adding them back in.)

[toomuchbooty]

Originally Posted by buttah

If your husband researched HCG, he would know that your body is not living off the 500 calories alone, but rather on the 500 calories + stored fat. That's why HCG works so well. Cheating once in a while (with something that's probably not good for in in the first place) in order to prevent "shocking" the body when it's off HCG is pure nonsense. And sounds like exactly the kind of rationalization that helped most of us become overweight in the first place. But to each his own.

I followed protocol to a tee, and have stabilized beautifully. Nothing I've ever done has worked this way. My body has never lost fat in these places before. Dr. Simeons knew he was on to something. If he felt cheating belonged in the protocol (to prevent shocking or for any other reason), I'm sure he would've included it. As for keeping people on plan, I think when you're ready to stay on plan, you stay on plan. Nothing will stop you. At least that's been my mindset.

(And FWIW, what prevents the body from being "shocked" at the end of a round is the 3 weeks of no sugar/carbs, then gradually adding them back in.)

This lady is SMART! She speaks the truth.

[jgr]

Well, I am glad that I get to show him this and "win" the debate.

[Tamra]

I and other friends have noticed that when a plateau is reached for a few days, a cheat of something ridiculous but not large(a loaded hamburger with bun for eg), has often prompted a 1.8+ lb loss the next day and an end to the plateau. I guess it can shock the system into losing again...?

[ldrof]

I say if you can't be good for a 23 or 40 day round and be committed, you will never be able to be committed in ph. 3-4. It's a short time to get your weight moving down and then a life time of maintaining it.

[jgr]

Originally Posted by Tamra

I and other friends have noticed that when a plateau is reached for a few days, a cheat of something ridiculous but not large(a loaded hamburger with bun for eg), has often prompted a 1.8+ lb loss the next day and an end to the plateau. I guess it can shock the system into losing again...?

But the main thing was how does it effect stabilization?

Originally Posted by ldrof

I say if you can't be good for a 23 or 40 day round and be committed, you will never be able to be committed in ph. 3-4. It's a short time to get your weight moving down and then a life time of maintaining it.

It wasn't a matter of committing or not committing or how hard it is to do so, he truly thought that be doing "controlled and planned" cheats would be beneficial in the long run.

[onedimsim]

Originally Posted by moonriver

My husband tends to cheat a little. He has not stabilized easily in any of his P3 rounds.

I tend to be strict protocol and have stabilzed easily in P3, hormones of perimenopause not withstanding.

VERY INTERESTING! Abt to end my first round.... I do not "cheat" per-se - but i have been a little rogue with one tbsp of SF Vanilla creamer in my coffee every day + zucchini three times + i do mix veggies 1/2 the time (i do find the diet to FEEL very depriving if i don't have some fun with recipes - but i do say also success is my main priority) - we'll see how i do in P3.

Live and Learn....

[onedimsim]

Originally Posted by buttah

I followed protocol to a tee, and have stabilized beautifully. Nothing I've ever done has worked this way.

Hi Buttah - are you super-pure on protocol? e.g., no salads that contain lettuce + Tomato + Onions + Cukes?

Just curious!

[onedimsim]

Originally Posted by Tamra

I and other friends have noticed that when a plateau is reached for a few days, a cheat of something ridiculous but not large(a loaded hamburger with bun for eg), has often prompted a 1.8+ lb loss the next day and an end to the plateau. I guess it can shock the system into losing again...?

Interesting experience here - my WL Clinic also stymied by my 10 day stall told me to do "apple day" for day 5 - no luck - i called them again rather flummoxed by day 7 - they suggested i do a "planned cheat" of a high fat meal - so on Day 9 i had Bacon+ Eggs for breakfast ~45 fat grams that day + 860 kcal total for day. Day 10 i was still stalled (exact same). Day 11 i went down 2.4 lbs -

Based on the timings i have no "proof" if this "high fat" meal broke my stall or just my body finally decided to let go....

[RedsSkinnyJeans]

Interesting thread.
I feel that part of the equation here, that has not been mentioned, is age and degree of insulin tolerance. A 21 year old man, for example, can break a LOT of rules and still lose. Conversely, a 50 year old, lifetime yo-yo dieter would stall dead in the same cheat. Different rules.

This round, I am forced to do something different. I stick to 500 calories a day, but I have to have some fat with my medicine twice a day. Very tricky, but I seem to be losing fine. I'm juicing too...so it's all working out, and I'm feeling great. However, in the past, I thought fat was the very devil during P2! And the experiment continues...

[jabbok]

Originally Posted by RedsSkinnyJeans

Interesting thread.
I feel that part of the equation here, that has not been mentioned, is age and degree of insulin tolerance. A 21 year old man, for example, can break a LOT of rules and still lose. Conversely, a 50 year old, lifetime yo-yo dieter would stall dead in the same cheat. Different rules.

This round, I am forced to do something different. I stick to 500 calories a day, but I have to have some fat with my medicine twice a day. Very tricky, but I seem to be losing fine. I'm juicing too...so it's all working out, and I'm feeling great. However, in the past, I thought fat was the very devil during P2! And the experiment continues...

I have cream in my coffee on P2 I tried no coffee and coffee with cream I lose the same so I figured I would be more pleasant if I had my coffee each morning

Good luck with your experiment.

[buttah]

Originally Posted by onedimsim

Hi Buttah - are you super-pure on protocol? e.g., no salads that contain lettuce + Tomato + Onions + Cukes?

Just curious!

Sorry - just saw this! I do mix veggies when I have a salad (as Robin Woodall said she's seen no evidence that it matters), although I rarely eat salads. And if I'm "starving" between meals, I sometimes snack on cukes or celery, even if that wasn't my meal veggie)

Beyond that, until this round where I've upped my protein to 4 oz (if I need it) for meals and sometimes had egg whites for breakfast, I am "pure." Stuff like fat fasts, eating extra carbs or fat, cheat meals, juicing... I don't know. Those things are way too far off protocol for me. If the idea of HCG is to make the body burn stored fat, I don't want to completely alter the diet choices that go along with that. It just seems the protocol was meant to consist of the minimum protein we need, plus a few complex carbs. No fat. So the Sonia Russell changes I've made this round just seem consistent with Simeons basic philosophy.

Once in a blue moon, I put a bit of half and half mixed with skim milk in my coffee. But only when I'm feeling really fed up. And on those days, I purposely don't have beef for my meals.

[mojocat]

One of the best books on the protocol IMO is Robyn Woodall's Weight Apocolypse Now. She explains how the protocol works on a hormonal level over and above Dr S based on what we know now - and when you read about how the HCG works in relation to Leptin it becomes clear that this is not a diet but a rare chance to change your body and eating in a short space of time.

[Jenski119]

Found that my mood is totally crazy today. I am on VLCD 15 and I have lost 11 lbs so far. I am raving hungry today. I have a headache and I am tired. I ended up eating a 6 oz steak for lunch and then for dinner I had some lean and fit granola with a ton of celery and hot sauce I couldn't help myself. I am so hungry and my hormones have me a bit intolerable. My normal plan allows me 550-600 calories a day. I went over and ate 750 calories.

Is this normal before your period? Hoping I don't have my first gain tomorrow.

[mojocat]

Yes I think I was hungrier before TOM and the scale did not budge the entire time, so I didn't weight myself ever day at that time. What is a lean and fit granola - is that starchy thing? HCG does play havoc with TOM. In my first couple of rounds it gave me a really really long TOM and in the last round I missed 2 cycles. So far with this one I am late and I'm normally regular like clockwork outside of HCG so with a bit of luck I might miss the next few cycles..yeehaa....hate the fluid gain..touch wood...

[Juliakfox1]

I never have long TOMS and I did while on HHCG. It lasted 7 days, when normally m 3 days. I also noticed my body was trying to get another TOM two weeks after my last one. Strange.