For those of you doing HCG with Low carb, Atkins or Nutritional Ketosis:

[TerriMM]

I’ve done several HCG rounds and had good success with interjecting Fat Fast. I’m considering trying an experiment doing Nutritional Ketosis with HCG beginning to end. I would appreciate any insight or advice anyone has to offer.
1. Do you keep your calories at 500?
2. What else do you track?
3. How have your losses been?
4. What have your biggest challenges been?
5. How did you or do you plan to transition off HCG?
6. How was your stabilization?
7. What advice do you have?

[emel]

Interesting.

Just guessing here--- I've not done the plan you describe.

You could trade your fruits and melba in on fat calories.
Looks like folks are doing 70%fat, 20-25% protein, and 5-10% carbs.

I don't see a way to do that on 500 cal---- 7 oz raw chicken, cooked, and an ounce of walnuts and a half an avocado equals 507 cal, and the fat isn't high enough with that setup.

7 oz chicken, weighed raw then cooked
1/4 avocado
1 oz walnuts
1 oz HWC
tbl olive oil

that does the percentages perfectly, and it comes in at 660 cal.

I wouldn't go lower on the protein that what protocol allows, so I don't see a way that I could keep it at 500 cal.

[TerriMM]

Hi Emel,
Thanks for your thoughts. You're giving me a different way of looking at it. I like that. Sort of standing on one foot and squinting.

In the past I've lost well on HCG doing Fat Fast at between 1000-1600 calories. I'm not sure why. It does seem to fluctuate more, so can be more frustrating in the short term day to day, but in the long term (six to nine days) the results were better. Sometimes twice what they were on std protocol. Now keep in mind, I'm a roguer. But I only went rogue because my loses were so slow on protocol. I also seem to do better if I fluctuate the calories from day to day say 1100, 1300, 1200, 1400, 1100, etc. But I have never tried this for the entire round.

[emel]

No need to apologize for roguishness on my account.
I went rogue because I felt like death warmed over on protocol.

[TerriMM]

I hear ya. I do look both ways before crossing. I've been bit before for coloring outside the lines.

[julieboolie]

Interesting! I hope this goes well for you! You've done well w. the FF, and this sounds good too. Do you really have weight to lose?

I did 1 round VLC and LC too. I was definitely in ketosis, but didn't lose any better than the regular rounds (w. my apple and strawberries). So, I added those back in subsequent rounds.

I'd check out some of LindaSue's recipes. I made the Quiche Italiano and the Bacon Cheeseburger Quiche yesterday and have had a piece of each the past 2 days w. a BP coffee. Coming in around 1200 cals with 80% fat. I'm using them as a kinda' correction days to get back to my window after a recent trip. Very satisfied and it's helping

I do admit that I miss my daily apple. But I'm hoping to add that back in soon (maybe I'll be back in window by tomorrow?!). I'm not sure I could do 3 full weeks VLC and not have the fruit.

Hope all goes well!

[TerriMM]

Hey Julie,
Thanks for the support. Yeah @ 5'1-1/2" I would be weigh, pun intended happier in the 120s. So not far, just beyond my grasp at the moment. I'm in the lose all week and gain all weekend syndrome and I can't seem to get out. I guess I’m just looking for a way to shake things up.

[TerriMM]

I’m going to try the roguish of rogue rounds. I’m going to try NK with HCG. I started taking my pellets today. I’m going to load by just eating as much protein and fat as I want without regard to calories. I think I might throw a few carbs in to shake things up, but nothing excessive. Although I do find that I really don’t want as many calories on my loading days as I think, and I’m not going to force it at all. Then Friday I’m going to strictly journal keeping calories between 1000 and 1500 and fat between 80-87, flexing the calories up and down as much as possible to keep my body guessing.

[Felina]

From what I understand NK is an excellent WOE so I don't see why you don't just do that and save your money on the hcg. You should do well without it. You probably didn't need hcg when you did the Ff either, IMHO.

[cocoapeanut]

I've actually tossed this idea around in my head a few times, so I'm curious to see how it goes for you!

Thanks for being willing to blaze the trail. I wish you much success!

[julieboolie]

Intriguing experiment!! I'm taking notes .

Felina makes an interesting point. Have you tried the plan w.o. hcg? Just curious, if it would work, for you, w.o. the hcg? As a scientist, a control is important for good data

I've not followed strict NK, but did Atkins induction for a long time and was solidly in ketosis. No loss for me (once I was to 175lbs that is). Nothing but hcg budged this last 30+lbs.

[TerriMM]

I've successfully done FF before without HCG. But just as VLC 500 is more doable and effective with HCG, FF is much easier to stick to with. And since my FF usually ended up to be more 1000-1500 calories, I was really doing NK without realizing it at the time. So calling a spade a spade

Thanks for everyone’s good thoughts!

[Felina]

Good luck, NK sounds real good to me since I'm VLCD-ing right now. I can't wait to be done because I don't like all of this low fat crap.

Like Julie, Atkins only works for me until my body gets used to it. I don't gain on Atkins but I have to keep my carbs extremely low just to maintain.

I totally want to try either NK or JUDDD for maintenance. I'm going to try 85% fat, 12% protein and 3% carb. That's what Jimmy Moore is doing. I can't imagine what he's eating to keep that ratio consistent. He's supposed to post his menus soon.

[Jeanyyy]

JUDD sounds quite do-able to me for maintenance also.. Or even "normal" LCing (not induction).. but we'll see. I've never done either FF or NK and honestly, I am not the best at tracking consumption. Still got a long way to go, though.

Down 1.1 lbs on slightly rogue HCG (hwc in my coffee) for a new low today of 13.6 lbs lost as of R1P2D22

[TerriMM]

Awesome Jeanyyy! That means you're averaging .62 lbs. a day. I don't care who ya are, that's pretty fantastic!

I surprised myself by being down a bit after day one of loading. I had a hamburger for lunch and low carb pasta for dinner and a couple glasses of wine. Go figure. But I have to say my appetite really starts diminishing right of the bat when I start my pellets so I'm pretty sure the volume is still lower. This also gives me a lot of hope for my experiment and keeping the calories down.

What kind of HCG are you doing? I'm doing Intermountain Pellets.

[Jeanyyy]

I'm using Omni from Omnitrition. I got them through a friend in Texas who is a distributor... There are some very active FB groups for Omni drops which can be quite helpful, too

[TerriMM]

Okay off I go. Today is first day of NK + HCG. Yesterday did not go according to plan. I had two donuts, on top of my regular low carb breakfast and lunch and was so stuffed, not to mention sugar speeding. Then I had two small pieces of KFC and half an order of potato wedges and was miserable. Now that isn't the way I eat normally by any means. But the fact that I was SO miserable tells me the HCG is totally working And now the NK will be a "new" thing for my body to deal with.

Total gain for the two load days was 1.9. Compared to other rounds, not so bad I guess. Why I need to gain a few before starting a diet is beyond me. At least with HCG it’s expected and kind of typical for the most part. On other diets it’s just plain stupidity.

[Stevie Renee]

Originally Posted by TerriMM

Okay off I go. Today is first day of NK + HCG. Yesterday did not go according to plan. I had two donuts, on top of my regular low carb breakfast and lunch and was so stuffed, not to mention sugar speeding. Then I had two small pieces of KFC and half an order of potato wedges and was miserable. Now that isn't the way I eat normally by any means. But the fact that I was SO miserable tells me the HCG is totally working And now the NK will be a "new" thing for my body to deal with.

Total gain for the two load days was 1.9. Compared to other rounds, not so bad I guess. Why I need to gain a few before starting a diet is beyond me. At least with HCG it’s expected and kind of typical for the most part. On other diets it’s just plain stupidity.

Terri,
I am intrigued.. Will you be posting your menus?
How long will your round be and will you weigh every day? I think I read you will target 1000 calories? And what are your macros?



PS: I may do this with you. I am mid stream P2, ending week 3 ( lost 12 pounds) and plan on going for another 2.5 weeks. I am not a big scale watcher but don't mind posting pix as we go. My goal is to lose about 6 more pounds.

[TerriMM]

Hi Stevie,

I'll post my menus, probably more after the fact, and at this point I plan on weighing every day, unless it starts to drive me crazy. Then I'll go to once a week.

I’m going to strictly journal, keeping calories between 1000 and 1500 and fat between 80-87, flexing the calories up and down as much as possible to keep my body guessing. I'm also going to try and keep my protein under 60 grams per day.

Another part of this is I'm working on learning the "slow burn" method of exercising and I'm going to do that once a week, probably Sundays for the most part.

I'd love for you to join me. That would be great! My ultimate goal is 122, but if I can get into the 120s by November 15th when I leave to celebrate DH's birthday, I'll be thrilled. Then I'll work on the rest.

[Stevie Renee]

How do I figure out my macros? Especially protein. For some reason I have in my head close to 70 grams but forgot why. lol

I do work out often, power walking, regular walking, weight lifting all week long. This is another reason why I do not weigh so much. I do get sore and that is never a good thing. Happy to say my size 6 jeans are fitting right with no muffin top. Now to just lose a few more to be perfect.

I am reading the Art & Science of Low Carb living in hopes of learning something new.

I too want to end 11-15! My BD is on Thanksgiving this year and then a week later, off to Germany and France for 10 days. Planning to take beef jerky, nuts, dark chocolate, stuff like that. High fat all the way.

Are you going to go into the journal section?

So far today I have had 1 oz of macs, a half an avocado, 2 pieces of bacon and a tsp of sour cream. - Water goal is 70 ounces. Thinking of getting full fat cream too for the coffee. Why not.lol

Did you get a chance to read where Jimmy Moore talked about his checklist of foods for this plan? (Minus HCG). Dark chocolate, sour cream, butter, coconut oil, avocado, whole eggs, bacon, 70% ground beef, full fat cheddar, cream cheese.

My current measurements: I am almost 5'7, medium built, turning 49 next month.

Thigh:21.5"
Arm: 11"
hips: 37"
belly button: 30"

Would love to get 34" hips again and a 28" waist before Thanksgiving.

[TerriMM]

This is a copy of a post I did on another thread to help someone figure out theirs:

This took me a while to figure out last night too Protein Power has a whole other way to calculate based on height and measurements that I had calculated a while ago and since it fell right in the middle the ranges with these calculations, I felt good about them.

This is the thread I got the calcs from:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ot...r-version.html


How to Calculate Your Protein Needs:

1. Weight in pounds divided by 2.2 = weight in kg
2. Weight in kg x 0.8-1.8 gm/kg = protein gm.

Use a lower number if you are in good health and are sedentary (i.e., 0.8). Use a higher number (between 1 and 1.8) if you are under stress, are pregnant, are recovering from an illness, or if you are involved in consistent and intense weight or endurance training.

Example: 154 lb male who is a regular exerciser and lifts weights
154 lbs/2.2 = 70kg
70kg x 1.5 = 105 gm protein/day
------
She is:
145 / 2.2 = 65.90 kg
65.90 x 0.8 = 52.73 for sedentary
65.90 x 1.8 -=118.62 for very active
52.73 – 118.62 range

And the formula used in the Nutritional Ketosis thread:
Quote:
Multiply your goal weight times your desired body fat percentage. This will give you your desired Lean Body Mass (LBM).

Multiply your LBM by 0.6. This will give you the low end of daily protein consumption. Your LBM in grams is the high end of your consumption.

For example, if I desire to weigh 150 lbs with 18% body fat, my target LBM is 150 * (1-.18) = 123 lbs. This means I should consume between 73.8g of protein (123 * 0.6) and 123g of protein per day.

145 x 25% = 36.25
145 – 36.25 =108.75 LBM
LBM 108.75 x 0.6 = 65.25 grams of protein if you are sedentary
108.75 grams of protein if you are very active
65.25-108.75 range


I’m still in my 4/6s too but my muffin top is reappearing and that just won’t do! Most of all my cute sweaters are pretty form-fitting.

I was going to get Art & Science too, but opted for “The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution” instead. My bookshelf runneth over with health and fitness books so I have to “try” to control myself a little.

Your trip sounds awesome! Especially the dark chocolate part.

I’m not much for coconut oil, although a lot of people swear by it. The few times I’ve tried it in coco crack I’ve gained and I seem to lose well without it so I haven’t been encouraged to push it. For breakfast I usually have an egg with an extra yoke cooked in butter, depending on how many calories I’m doing that day I might add cheese and/or avocado. Havarti is a good high fat cheese and a Havarti, pesto omelet is one of my favs. Cream cheese muffins are a good stand by for lunch, or a little meat with homemade Alfredo Sauce is a current fav. Dinner I usually do 3-4 oz fatty meat with salad and full fat dressing. Snacks are more often than not, Brazil nuts. They’re higher fat than most, but more satisfying to me then macadamias. And totally High Fat Whipping Cream for coffee.

Today so far:
Breakfast – Two scrambled eggs in 1T Butter, three pre-cooked bacon strips, 2 oz HWC coffee
Lunch – Two Cream cheese muffins
Dinner – “The plan” is 4oz filet mignon, mushrooms & onions, small salad with Caesar dressing

I think I’ll do measurements tomorrow and set my goals as well.

A couple other threads I’ve learned a lot from, you might want to check out, are:
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ot...is-thread.html
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ot...-low-carb.html
High fat, low to moderate protein recipes?

[Stevie Renee]

Will read those threads. Thank you.

Looks like my protein grams will be 56 to 127...I should be ok.

Best get to ****** to watch how I eat.

Today will be a good practice. Tomorrow is date night and red wine. Happens every 2 to 3 weeks - just have to go with it. But food will be filet, mushrooms cooked in butter.
Once I burn the wine off, I should be good to go as far as getting a clean momentum going.

6 pounds is not much to try and tackle. More would be better but I don't have a lot to lose nor much time to hit that target. But in the end, this is an experiment and it sure will taste better! lol



PS: My sweaters too are form fitting. And I love them all winter! So we are in the same boat.

[Stevie Renee]

Is this your cream cheese muffin recipe?

Cream Cheese Muffins

[TerriMM]

Yes. I usually make them in half batches and use 1 full teaspoon vanilla or 1/2 & 1/2 vanilla & almond. Otherwise they are a little bland.

I also have a DH requesting me to pick up red wine on the way home. We'll see if today is practice or day one later. Regardless the food ratios will be good.

[Stevie Renee]

Originally Posted by TerriMM

Yes. I usually make them in half batches and use 1 full teaspoon vanilla or 1/2 & 1/2 vanilla & almond. Otherwise they are a little bland.

I also have a DH requesting me to pick up red wine on the way home. We'll see if today is practice or day one later. Regardless the food ratios will be good.

lol, we are in good company, aren't we! lol

[TerriMM]

Totally

[MaryN]

I am so interested in this expirment. I might join you if you don't mind. I don't have much to lose just about 5 lb but I really want to lose some inches that have crept up on me. The funny thing is I now exercise several times a week but my legs are getting bigger and they weren't that skinny to begin with. I lost 64 lbs on hcg and man I don't want any of it back. Several wks ago I started the drops but had to quit because I had a horrible uti and couldn't take the meds with so little food. Coconut oil makes me gain also. I am wondering if taking the drops with the higher fat would result in inches gone.

[Stevie Renee]

Originally Posted by MaryN

I am so interested in this expirment. I might join you if you don't mind. I don't have much to lose just about 5 lb but I really want to lose some inches that have crept up on me. The funny thing is I now exercise several times a week but my legs are getting bigger and they weren't that skinny to begin with. I lost 64 lbs on hcg and man I don't want any of it back. Several wks ago I started the drops but had to quit because I had a horrible uti and couldn't take the meds with so little food. Coconut oil makes me gain also. I am wondering if taking the drops with the higher fat would result in inches gone.

The more the merrier! I am not sure about coconut oil because I do not weigh often. I may have it in coffee or a fat bomb once in awhile to see how I do.

My DH reminded me we have a party to go to Sunday afternoon so I think to simplify my life, will start Monday.

[TerriMM]

Yay Mary Welcome. Very cool that we're kind of all in the same, not much to lose, boat. It'll make our results very comparable.

So the red wine turned into a couple VO & diet cokes. So what do I do? Call it another load day? I decided just now to make part of my experiment - Making it work with a Life. I'm going to work real hard not to let life derail me. Which also means a couple doesn't have to be way too much, we'll start again tomorrow (yeah we'll see how that goes ). If I hadn't started already I would probably be singing a different tune but I'm not stopping now. Just pausing to admire the view.

I'm totally going to measure in the morning and check out the more fat/more inches question. Interesting idea. I'm glad I'm not the only one that gains with coconut oil. I was beginning to think I was just doing it wrong.

Have a great Friday night everyone!

[MaryN]

Originally Posted by TerriMM

Yay Mary Welcome. Very cool that we're kind of all in the same, not much to lose, boat. It'll make our results very comparable.

I'm totally going to measure in the morning and check out the more fat/more inches question. Interesting idea. I'm glad I'm not the only one that gains with coconut oil. I was beginning to think I was just doing it wrong.

Have a great Friday night everyone!

Thanks for the Welcome Terri,

I have several eating events this week so I am going to start loading on Thurs. We always have a little wine on the weekend with friends. I am going to stop that for 21 days, I think. Wow, I am weak when it comes to socializing I actually drank a little wine once a week while losing on hcg just kept it to one glass and was super careful all the day before. Hcg was really easy for me and so was maintence till just this past summer. I think we are socializing much more than we used to and that also means a little more food.

Human nature is so funny! Two years ago at this weight I was on top of the world, now I don't feel as well and stress about it. The reason I wondered about the inches is Buffy on the 80/15/5 thread is losing slowly but can tell that she is losing inches and her Titania Scale also is showing a lower body fat. She says she knows the scale is not totally accurate but it is consistant and does show a downward trend. Interesting is is not. I wonder if the extra fat gets rid of our extra body fat. I wouldn't even mind being 5 lbs heavier if my thighs weren't at least 1/2" bigger each.