RX Veterans - Avoiding Immunity

[shelbyla]

Hi all! We've been having a rather...spirited...discussion over on the P2 thread regarding an interpretation of a couple of passages in P&I and I would love to have the input of the collective brain trust of veteran users of prescription hCG, both injections and drops (and, of course any other newer delivery methods out there).

The question at it's very most basic is this: if you do multiple shorter rounds of rx hCG with a planned interruption in between, the usual P3 time, and shortened or omitted P4, do you still risk developing immunity? For example, if you do a 23 day round, take a 14 day break, do another 23 day round, then continue to P3 but cycle back to P2 after 3 weeks, does this put you at risk for immunity?

I know that often hhCG users cycle and some do quite well. I've not really seen or heard of rx users doing the same. I'd also be curious as to whether there is an opinion about rx injections and immunity vs. rx drops.

The relevant passages from P&I are the following:

Immunity to HCG
The reason for limiting a course to 40 doses is that by then some patients may begin to show signs of HCG immunity. Though this phenomenon is well known, we cannot as yet define the underlying mechanism. Maybe after a certain length of time the body learns to break down and eliminate HCG very rapidly, or possibly prolonged treatment leads to some sort of counter-regulation which annuls the diencephalic effect.

After 40 daily doses it takes about six weeks before this so-called immunity is lost and HCG again becomes fully effective. Usually after about 40 doses patients may feel the onset of immunity as hunger which was previously absent. In those comparatively rare cases in which signs of immunity develop before the full course of 40 doses has been completed - say at the 35th dose - treatment must be stopped at once, because if it is continued the patients begin to look weary and drawn, feel weak and hungry and any further loss of weight achieved is then always at the expense of normal fat. This is not only undesirable, but normal fat is also instantly regained as soon as the patient is returned to a free diet.

Patients who need only 23 doses may be injected daily, including Sundays, as they never develop immunity.* In those that take 40 doses the onset of immunity can be delayed if they are given only six doses a week, leaving out Sundays or any other day they choose, provided that it is always the same day.

*Should this be taken to mean that someone who takes less than 40 doses in a row, will NEVER develop immunity?

Further Courses
Patients requiring the loss of more than 34 lbs. must have a second or even more courses. A second course can be started after an interval of not less than six weeks*, though the pause can be more than six weeks. When a third, fourth or even fifth course is necessary, the interval between courses should be made progressively longer. Between a second and third course eight weeks should elapse, between a third and fourth course twelve weeks, between a fourth and fifth course twenty weeks and between a fifth and sixth course six months. In this way it is possible to bring about a weight reduction of 100 lbs. and more if required without the least hardship to the patient.

*Is the traditional timeframe relevant if a person NEVER develops immunity because they take planned interruptions or do not do a full 40 doses?

Thoughts on this topic?

[minimonkey]

Well, it certainly sounds to me like Simeons thought immunity was a real concern, and that cycling as you described would potentially put you at risk of it. I see the source confusion, but he pretty clearly states that the break times between rounds are important .... so, if one is not taking those recommended breaks, I'd think that the 40 consecutive dose rule might not apply.

I also think since he says "patients requiring only 23 doses" don't develop immunity, he is assuming that the 23 doses got them to goal ... and that they won't be doing another round.

I know that the common wisdom among hhcg users is that immunity isn't a risk with the hhcg, but frankly, I don't know if I believe that. During my longer hhcg rounds, there has been a marked point at which hunger and weakness kicked in hardcore, which sounds a lot like what Simeons is describing as immunity....

This is all just my interpretation, and may be worth exactly nothing, lol.

[Fat Eddie]

Another confusing point is when you end a round(of any length) you have to continue the 500 calories protocol for three more days until the HCG leaves your body. So I ponder the point if HCG has left your body after three days how can you develop immunity of a hormone that your body doesn't have in your system any more?

Side Note: I have a friend who did 3 straight 43 day rounds and lost 70 lbs with no ill effects. I think everybody needs to stay tuned to their body. just my 2 cents as I am far from a HCG guru.

Have a great day and don't forget to play. Fat Eddie

[Sleepy]

i really dont believe in the immunity theory, it you have a lot of weight to lose its fine to keep going

[Arctic_Mama]

Regarding immunity - the shortened P2 passage specifically implies the 20 effective doses and a full maintenance round, from all I have read that was credible. Planned interruptions re not meant to be used in series, nor is the total passage of days even AFTER planned interruption to make the P2 round exceed 40. Some manage it, but cycling, especially at lower weights, only seems to cause massive problems with hunger and stabilization.

One planned interruption followed by a normal maintenance period? Fine. Cycling them and never doing P4 is asking for sensitivities, at the very least!

[minimonkey]

I think this may be an individual thing -- but I do believe immunity is real (or, at least that something can change after a few weeks of doing this.) I know I've had rounds that have gone really well for a while, but that I hit a point where hunger and depletion set in... and that keeping on going past that point has done more harm than good, for me.

I think it is probably important to listen to one's body, on this one.

Here's my current theory (based on trial and a lot of error, lol!):

If you are weak, tired, freezing, and constantly hungry, then the hcg/hhcg isn't allowing the release of fat for use ... that may be due to cycling, to a rogue plan or cheats, or immunity, hcg/hhcg that has lost its potency, or some other individual factor like stress, illness, overtraining, etc. .... but if one is feeling completely depleted and dragged out, it is likely the body perceives that it is on a starvation diet, and the game is temporarily over. If you keep going at that point, you are just setting yourself up for big problems and rebound gains.

This is based on my personal experience, and on watching the results of others. It may not be based on science, lol!

[christyb]

I'm on RX, but I would tend to agree that immunity is a concern in HHCG as well. One of the You Tubers I watched did very long rounds (60+ days). After a number of rounds it caught up to her and she changed her mind and said she did believe that immunity is possible with hHCG.

[C'Marie]

I believe immunity to be a real factor. My not-so-good rounds were too close together.

It is a real art to learn to be patient and not sacrifice longer-term goals for short term losses that may not stick and may set you up for future failure. This is a battle of the mind. I am still learning.

[christyb]

Originally Posted by C'Marie

I believe immunity to be a real factor. My not-so-good rounds were too close together.

It is a real art to learn to be patient and not sacrifice longer-term goals for short term losses that may not stick and may set you up for future failure. This is a battle of the mind. I am still learning.

Well said!

[Fat Eddie]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

I think this may be an individual thing -- but I do believe immunity is real (or, at least that something can change after a few weeks of doing this.) I know I've had rounds that have gone really well for a while, but that I hit a point where hunger and depletion set in... and that keeping on going past that point has done more harm than good, for me.

I think it is probably important to listen to one's body, on this one.

Here's my current theory (based on trial and a lot of error, lol!):

If you are weak, tired, freezing, and constantly hungry, then the hcg/hhcg isn't allowing the release of fat for use ... that may be due to cycling, to a rogue plan or cheats, or immunity, hcg/hhcg that has lost its potency, or some other individual factor like stress, illness, overtraining, etc. .... but if one is feeling completely depleted and dragged out, it is likely the body perceives that it is on a starvation diet, and the game is temporarily over. If you keep going at that point, you are just setting yourself up for big problems and rebound gains.

This is based on my personal experience, and on watching the results of others. It may not be based on science, lol!

Hi Are you saying that you personally expirenced these symptoms? I am very curious. thanks Fat Eddie

[Reddy]

So am I doing myself a real disservice to be doing R2 after only 1 week in P4? I imagine this will be my last round for a long time as I have about 20lbs to go to get to my goal.

If I were to do HCG again it would be over a year from now (perhaps to lose future pregnancy weight)

So do I really need to be concerned about Immunity in this case?

I'm hoping this will be a good round even though I didn't wait the full 6 weeks.

[christyb]

Beyond immunity, I would be concerned about stabilization even more if you're going into another round so quickly. IMO you would serve yourself best to wait the full amount of time Dr. Simeons suggests between rounds. It seems like so long, I know, but I believe it will be worth it. I've seen too many people struggle to stablize and have to repeat rounds.

Best of luck to you no matter what you do!

[Reddy]

Christy, I suspect I should have waited. It would have been just 2 more weeks but I started today so I'm just going to do it and hope for the best... I stabilized really well after my first round- really hope that is the case this time too!!

[riss]

Originally Posted by C'Marie

It is a real art to learn to be patient and not sacrifice longer-term goals for short term losses that may not stick and may set you up for future failure. This is a battle of the mind. I am still learning.

I'm already trying to plan out several rounds and was wondering if I could skip P4 and go straight back to P2. It sounds like I'll be better in the long run if I do the full P3/P4 before another round.

[C'Marie]

Originally Posted by riss

I'm already trying to plan out several rounds and was wondering if I could skip P4 and go straight back to P2. It sounds like I'll be better in the long run if I do the full P3/P4 before another round.

I sat down with an 18-month plan and literally counted days. That is my best advice. Everyone is different, of course, and what affects one person may not affect another one the same. Differences may be found in pounds lost on rounds, stabilization afterwards, future rounds, or symptoms yet unknown to be related. For me, it's just not a risk I am willing to take. I need this to work long-term. That means not only do I need to follow protocol during P2, I also need to follow P3/P4 and maintain well in between so as to not lose ground.

Again, we support you no matter what you decide.

[christyb]

Originally Posted by C'Marie

I sat down with an 18-month plan and literally counted days. That is my best advice. Everyone is different, of course, and what affects one person may not affect another one the same. Differences may be found in pounds lost on rounds, stabilization afterwards, future rounds, or symptoms yet unknown to be related. For me, it's just not a risk I am willing to take. I need this to work long-term. That means not only do I need to follow protocol during P2, I also need to follow P3/P4 and maintain well in between so as to not lose ground.

Again, we support you no matter what you decide.

I agree wholeheartedly!

The stabilization you gain in P3/P4 is priceless, IMO! And it is kind of fun! It was thrilling to me to see that I could eat like a normal person and not gain. Of course, everyone's experience is different. But if you stick to the plan like glue it really works!

[minimonkey]

Eddie

Yes, I experienced those symptoms -- I did rounds for too long, and also far too close together.... but I also had some complicating health and life factors going on. That said, I definitely felt all the things I described.

[Fat Eddie]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Eddie

Yes, I experienced those symptoms -- I did rounds for too long, and also far too close together.... but I also had some complicating health and life factors going on. That said, I definitely felt all the things I described.

Thanks Mini- I think I am there. I have been on one long extended round since 7/9/12 with 2 short PI's. I can tell I am "cooked" even the weight loss is bouncing between 201.0-201.4 so what's the point. This week I will transistion intp P3 for 3 weeks and then do a short P2 into Thanksgiving. Thanks for your help, much appreciated.

Fat Eddie

[mojopage]

Hi, everyone- I know that this is an older thread, but I have been wondering something similar about immunity as well-
Has anyone on the Rx (I do Rx intramuscular) done the 40 shots consecutively- not skipping the 7th day ? If so, did you build up immunity by not having a skip day ?

Thanks !
Mo

[buttah]

I did 43 injections (45 counting my load days) without skipping my first round (my clinic said it was not necessary to skip, based on their experience). No problem, although I don't think I could've gone much longer. I was just ready to stop.

[mojopage]

Originally Posted by buttah

I did 43 injections (45 counting my load days) without skipping my first round (my clinic said it was not necessary to skip, based on their experience). No problem, although I don't think I could've gone much longer. I was just ready to stop.

Thank you That is good to know- I realize that by skipping a day it only extends the protocol with shots by a week, but that is a realllly long week to me !

I appreciate your help!

Mo

[buttah]

I also did four weeks (28 injections total) without skipping on my last round. No problems.

[mojopage]

Originally Posted by buttah

I also did four weeks (28 injections total) without skipping on my last round. No problems.

Thanks Now to just stay motivated !!!!!

[Felina]

Hmm, I did a very long round with PI's then 3 weeks of p3 and then I started the current round I am on. I was hoping for a good round but I wonder if I'm screwed because I haven't given myself a chance to stabilize.

I have been on and off HCG since September and I really haven't lost much weight because of all of the PI's and loading. After loading on my 5th round I'm only 7 lbs less than I was after my 2nd round last April!! I feel like I have been eating this VLCD food and its all for nothing because I didn't finish the rounds properly so I could stabilize. So, in 8 months I'm essentially down only 7 lbs. I could've eaten low carb that whole time (which I would have enjoyed much more) and probably lost more weight than that.

I don't think people should mess with the protocol. It's expensive so why do it if you don't adhere to the protocol?

I don't know. I'm just ranting because I'm just now realizing that I've gotten nowhere in a long time. I might have gotten immune, i don't know. My rounds would start out good, then I would screw them up.

[mojopage]

Originally Posted by Felina

Hmm, I did a very long round with PI's then 3 weeks of p3 and then I started the current round I am on. I was hoping for a good round but I wonder if I'm screwed because I haven't given myself a chance to stabilize.

I have been on and off HCG since September and I really haven't lost much weight because of all of the PI's and loading. After loading on my 5th round I'm only 7 lbs less than I was after my 2nd round last April!! I feel like I have been eating this VLCD food and its all for nothing because I didn't finish the rounds properly so I could stabilize. So, in 8 months I'm essentially down only 7 lbs. I could've eaten low carb that whole time (which I would have enjoyed much more) and probably lost more weight than that.

I don't think people should mess with the protocol. It's expensive so why do it if you don't adhere to the protocol?

I don't know. I'm just ranting because I'm just now realizing that I've gotten nowhere in a long time. I might have gotten immune, i don't know. My rounds would start out good, then I would screw them up.

I totally agree that the stabilization in P3 is critical- the 6 week period to stabilize is important !!!!! When I did my first round of Rx HCG, I didn't stabilize...... and I gained everything back - my fault, I didn't follow protocol. It has taken me this long to wrap my head around committing to starting HCG again.

In my quest to get through the first round, I was just wondering if anyone had experience with not skipping an injection day on a 40 day round of Rx and what the results were. I know that the original protocol said to skip the 7th day when doing a 40 day round. It seems as though Dr.'s and clinics now are deviating from that somewhat- the skip day, that is.

I know that when I asked the Dr. who prescribed my Rx "what if I start a 23 day round/short round and then want to extend to 40?"- She said that if I did that then to just start skipping a shot at that point.

I'm not trying to play around too much with protocol this time around ( I hope)- just a little rogue with not skipping a day......

If "you" start out on a 23 day protocol and then extend, that is only skipping 2 shots- I guess, I just wondered how much immunity could be built up with 2 shots.

Hang in there, Felina- you have great stats !!!!!!! I see that you are doing Rx now- I don't have the protocol in front of me at the moment, but I seem to recall that when you begin a 2nd round, you don't load when on Rx- maybe that in conjunction with the shortened P3 is having an effect on loss this round ? I'm certainly no expert or veteran here, at all !!!! Someone who has more experience may chime in

- Mo

[buttah]

mojo, I didn't take your question as "screwing around with protocol" at all! And I don't think NOT skipping as had the slightest effect on my stabilization. In fact, I seem to stabilize better than most.

Even Simeons didn't relate skipping injections to stabilizing - it was all about avoiding immunity. It seems there are many doctors these days who "skip" the skipping - perhaps because we are not as morbidly obese as most of the patients in Simeons' Italian clinic. I don't know. All I know is that I didn't skip, per the instructions of my doctor, and I did fine.

Not doing a long enough P3? That is definitely something that seems to cause issues, and my clinic is adamant about taking long enough between rounds (per Simeons). I took 9 weeks between my two rounds.

Best of luck!

And Felina, remember it's a journey. We learn and move forward. You have come SO FAR. When your head's in the game, you will finish the job.

OH... and YOU ALWAYS LOAD at the beginning of rounds, EVEN RX!!!!!!!

[C'Marie]

I think to skip or not skip if you are doing the RX doesn't matter much. IF YOU STICK TO around 40 days! If you are going to go longer, I think it does become an issue and per Simeons, you shouldn't do longer with RX. And I am sure this is one of those things where YMMV greatly. Some of us are definitely more sensitive about things than others, just like in every type of medical treatment, alternative therapy, food sensitivities, reactions, etc. etc. etc. For the best results, follow protocol as closely as you can. Only then can you tell yourself you did the best you could and let the chips fall. Then if you need to "tweak" something to see if you get a better result, you have yourself to compare to.

Most of my rounds I did NOT skip. Some of them I skipped periodically and not a certain day of the week (*forgot* and called it a "skip"). Only one did I skip methodically. I think skipping could be useful if you are attempting to see if you are less or more hungry with less dosage.

I don't think skipping has anything to do with stabilization. I think that is very individual, as well. However, I do think cheating during protocol may very well have something to do with stabilization. But that is just my unscientific observation.

[grok_dogs_mama]

Hi, new to these parts: I love how u guys on here discuss stuff. On another site: there seems to be an "unwritten code" that you don't question protocol. It gets a little old when trying to learn and understand this stuff when u keep getting back: "that is not protocol and protocol works so don't mess with it!".....almost as if P&I is a "bible" or something.......

I am a questioning, curious sort and like to research and understand stuff so I find ur attitudes on here refreshing.

Now, don't get me wrong: I know when people are really wanting to take weight off and have spent the money, time and commitment to do so they want the least chance of failure. However, for me: I have done about 6 rounds since about 2009 and am really trying to learn what works for stabilizing and maintaining and life long optimal health and weight. So, I very much like to hear others' experiences and journeys to learn as much as I can.

Think I'll hang out here and see what enlightenment it can add! (Plus there are way better smilies here.....LOL...... )

[mojopage]

Thank you, guys for your words of wisdom - I appreciate you I know that the original question was more about rounds/length to stabilize and my question was more about skipping a shot..... It's nice to get everyone's input and experiences !

[Felina]

Yes, and I hope no one took my comment about messing with the protocol, personal. I was referring to myself and how I messed with protocol.