Starvation Mode..and Why You Probably Never Need to Worry About It.

[HappyChick]

Honestly, I think the term of "Starvation Mode" is thrown around too loosely... it is actually pretty difficult to go into starvation mode unless you are already extremely lean. I'm speaking in regards to catabolic muscle wasting...

Those of us who have high body fat have plenty of energy to supply our daily needs- some of us, for extended periods of time!! Hence, this is why Dr. S's protocol is not a starvation diet- we are using stored energy to meet our requirements. I think what the nay-sayers fail to comprehend is that HCG is simply a hormonal mechanism to unlock the storage cells. It's really not that complicated in its core concept, right?

In the link below is an overview of an audio interview with Brad Pilon, author of "Eat, Stop, Eat" and pretty well known authority on Intermittent Fasting (IF), as he discusses the findings of several Military lab studies concerning starvation mode. If you want to hear it- click on the cassette in the article. The author of this article does a pretty good job at condensing the main facts, tho. An interesting read!

Starvation Mode – Why You Probably Never Need to Worry About It

[Arctic_Mama]

I've seen that article before and agree completely. Thanks for reposting it here!

[julieboolie]

Thanks for posting this. I've been doing some research on metabolism and diet etc. and this factors in nicely.

[HappyChick]

O/T Girls.. please tell me how to add a signature to my profile! I have the show signature option on- but, I just don't see where I am supposed to create it! Thanks in advance!!

[Crazy PreK Teacher]

Originally Posted by HappyChick

O/T Girls.. please tell me how to add a signature to my profile! I have the show signature option on- but, I just don't see where I am supposed to create it! Thanks in advance!!

You have to post 25 times Then you will be able to make a signature. A box will open up when available.

[HappyChick]

Originally Posted by Crazy PreK Teacher

You have to post 25 times Then you will be able to make a signature. A box will open up when available.

ahhhh! I see the light now, thank you!!

I was starting to think I was losing brain cells along with this stubborn fat..

[dawnyama]

Thanks for posting. I hate it when people think I am starving myself by eating "only 500 calories". And I hate explaining to people what I am doing. Easier to just keep quiet. If I were on a starvation diet I don't think I would be so "nice" to people as I am while on P2 LOL.

[minimonkey]

Well, I'll be the contrarian here -- and state, outright, that I did too much p2, and for far too long....

Bearing in mind that I actually AM pretty lean at goal, after too many rounds of p2, I was showing all the signs of starvation mode -- low body temperature, lethargy, weakness, menstrual wierdness, mood swings ... and terrible, unbelievable rebound gains the moment I started to eat again.

The worst of the post-round rebound was, by far, on my last two rounds, which were done on rx drops -- I'm not trying to scare anyone or discourage anyone from trying hcg, but I am being honest with my experiences.... I think the potential for metabolic slow down is very real, even with hcg in the mix ---

I'm the cautionary example for not getting stuck in a never-ending p2 in the quest for greater leanness....

[Tommyswife]

Originally Posted by dawnyama

Thanks for posting. I hate it when people think I am starving myself by eating "only 500 calories". And I hate explaining to people what I am doing. Easier to just keep quiet. If I were on a starvation diet I don't think I would be so "nice" to people as I am while on P2 LOL.

Lol so true

[mommy2boysaz]

I'm definitely not worried about losing muscle mass, because I think my body will burn my fat for fuel first, and I have plenty of that to burn! However, my initial worry about this plan (and I still wonder...), is that I've always been told that when we make our bodies think that no (or very little) food will be coming in for a period of time, it will then become very efficient at holding on to fat stores, as much as possible. As a means of self-preservation.
For instance, I was reading on the JUDDD board the other day and someone mentioned that once their body got into "starvation mode" on the down day, that is when their body would really start releasing fat.
This seems the exact opposite of what I've always been taught. Can anyone clarify this better for me?

[Crazy PreK Teacher]

Originally Posted by mommy2boysaz

I'm definitely not worried about losing muscle mass, because I think my body will burn my fat for fuel first, and I have plenty of that to burn! However, my initial worry about this plan (and I still wonder...), is that I've always been told that when we make our bodies think that no (or very little) food will be coming in for a period of time, it will then become very efficient at holding on to fat stores, as much as possible. As a means of self-preservation.
For instance, I was reading on the JUDDD board the other day and someone mentioned that once their body got into "starvation mode" on the down day, that is when their body would really start releasing fat.
This seems the exact opposite of what I've always been taught. Can anyone clarify this better for me?

I'm not sure of the answer...but I think it is the body utilizing ("burning") the fat for energy to function. Since there isn't adequate calories for energy...it turns to our fat stores. Kinda like gasoline in our cars...it burns away as it powers the car to move.. Now for the release part...I think that is where the old empty fat cells tend to fill up with water first, sometimes creating a much wanted "whoosh" later In my mind, I see HCG as my exercise guru...(w/o the physical part)...heavy exercise causes a depletion the same way.

Even after the body has been in self-preservation mode...eventually it has to start releasing. Now as far as PERMANENT self-preservation mode, I have to say that my body has definitely changed/adapted...I has WLS 7 years ago...was almost down to goal...life happened...several family deaths within 5 months, and I gained weight very easily...so now I gain on ANY carbs, and on any calories over 1100-1200. I have to be on a program at all times literally. I feel HCG can't really hurt me at this point, just get me back down. I had tried JUDDD...but had a hard time w/ the UD's...too many calories required...I was exhausted trying to eat ALL day to get them in.

I know this isn't the scientific answer, but HTH!!!

[martiangurll]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Well, I'll be the contrarian here -- and state, outright, that I did too much p2, and for far too long....

Bearing in mind that I actually AM pretty lean at goal, after too many rounds of p2, I was showing all the signs of starvation mode -- low body temperature, lethargy, weakness, menstrual wierdness, mood swings ... and terrible, unbelievable rebound gains the moment I started to eat again.

The worst of the post-round rebound was, by far, on my last two rounds, which were done on rx drops -- I'm not trying to scare anyone or discourage anyone from trying hcg, but I am being honest with my experiences.... I think the potential for metabolic slow down is very real, even with hcg in the mix ---

I'm the cautionary example for not getting stuck in a never-ending p2 in the quest for greater leanness....

TY for posting that!

[nola baxter]

I agree with Mini

I think starvation mode is very real,
and have experienced it myself to varying degrees.

It is possible and highly likely that some people are more susceptible to it than
others.

But for many of us who diet-
I think it is (starvation mode) a major concern if you want to lose weight and keep it off on a permanent basis -
without having continual ongoing uncomfortable hunger and calorie restriction.

I have experienced over and over again, significant metabolic reduction along with a reduction of calories.

Some people can get away with it,
but for others this metabolic reduction factor keeps them forever on an eternal dieting wheel of losing and regaining,
or losing and having to hold onto the loss only by watching every calorie, restraining natural hunger, and essentially living on a perpetual diet.

[julieboolie]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Well, I'll be the contrarian here -- and state, outright, that I did too much p2, and for far too long....

Bearing in mind that I actually AM pretty lean at goal, after too many rounds of p2, I was showing all the signs of starvation mode -- low body temperature, lethargy, weakness, menstrual wierdness, mood swings ... and terrible, unbelievable rebound gains the moment I started to eat again.

The worst of the post-round rebound was, by far, on my last two rounds, which were done on rx drops -- I'm not trying to scare anyone or discourage anyone from trying hcg, but I am being honest with my experiences.... I think the potential for metabolic slow down is very real, even with hcg in the mix ---

I'm the cautionary example for not getting stuck in a never-ending p2 in the quest for greater leanness....

Mini- you, and your craziness!! But, I'm not sure your crazy extended round is typical hcg experience. You also did some rogue additions to the plan, which according to both Simeon and Woodall (who's work is quite intriguing) would GREATLY impact your ability to stabilize. The length of your rounds, and the lack of a long break between them, definitely made your situation much worse. And, lets face it, you really are already pretty lean, so your "abnormal" fat stores are much smaller than most of us. The rebound gain from a rogue round seems to be much higher than a more strict protocol round. The theory that if you overdo calories on the VLCDs w. the hcg in your system you'll store fat much more easily. That hormonal "switch" that tells your body to "store, store, store" stays "on" and even when you transition off of hcg and start P3, your body is likely to continue gaining. Theoretically, if the leptin levels are just right (hcg should help assure that's the case) and your calories are very low, your body should seek additional fuel from your stored fat. That's supposed to be the "magic" of hcg.
That said, the whole leptin/hormone control of our body's metabolism and when it burns fat vs. when it stores it is still a mystery to most scientists. There are lots of studies, theories, explanations, etc. and most of them contradict one another . I almost get what Robin talks about w. the leptin and it's control. But there are so many variables, and conflicting studies.

Originally Posted by mommy2boysaz

I'm definitely not worried about losing muscle mass, because I think my body will burn my fat for fuel first, and I have plenty of that to burn! However, my initial worry about this plan (and I still wonder...), is that I've always been told that when we make our bodies think that no (or very little) food will be coming in for a period of time, it will then become very efficient at holding on to fat stores, as much as possible. As a means of self-preservation.
For instance, I was reading on the JUDDD board the other day and someone mentioned that once their body got into "starvation mode" on the down day, that is when their body would really start releasing fat.
This seems the exact opposite of what I've always been taught. Can anyone clarify this better for me?

I'd love someone to be able to clarify all of this!! I've spent years reading and researching (and experimenting on myself). Not sure about JUDDD and many of it's claims. The sirt1 gene, the starvation mode, the "tricking" the body to keep it out of starvation mode, etc. all kinda' sketchy to me. The calorie cycling idea has been around a long time and I do buy the "keep the body guessing" approach to both diet and exercise. I also think, like you seem to, that if we have the abnormal stores of fat, our bodies *should* access those for fuel before choosing lean muscle or "good" fat. From experience, I can tell you that my body does seem to burn my stored fat while following the VLCDs. I've "dieted" for years, but this is the one plan that seems to lose from all the right places!! I do buy into some of the hormonal impact of the hcg. As for maintenance, I haven't really been very good at it. I did have a few rounds where w. the occasional CD I was able to eat quite a bit, added chocolate and froyo w/o gains and was pretty happy.

Afer this past round a few months ago, I decided to try something else after I was pretty stable. The past few months I've been practicing RRARF (which is Matt Stone's ideas about resting and refeeding - very fun to try out!!) to boost your metabolism. His concept is that if we eat more, heavily of starches too, and our bodies gain some weight, that eventually our metabolism kicks in and will burn off those extra calories rather than allow us to continue gaining weight. Thereby speeding up our metabolisms. It's a nice idea, but gaining the 10lbs I did to test it out was kinda' painful (hence this round). But, that said, I did see a levelling off. I didn't continue to gain over a certain point and it was quite fun!! I was hoping to get my body to the point where it could take "normal" eating and not gain from it. I found that even though I felt pretty good coming off my last round, I still had to watch carbs more than "most" people. I hope that my RRARFing has me less sensitive to them now. We'll see in few weeks once I'm done this. I'll do a full, strict LC P3, but then I will add back some carby things and test the waters. I need to be controlled though, not go hog wild!!

Nola!! Good to see you. With the very lean folk, I think that danger is much higher. I don't think for those of us who are well padded there is as much danger. Like you said, there are some who seem more sucseptable to it than others. Lots of factors, exercise, diet, hormones, etc. all come into play. I'm still searching for the balance, but this article gave me encouragement that "starvation mode" isn't as easy to get into as we're all told.

[minimonkey]

Just to be clear, I am not blaming hcg or the protocol for my current pickle -- I was way rogue, and therefore can't be considered a good example of anything.

I am saying, however, that I wholeheartedly believe that starvation mode is real --

I don't believe we enter it if we skip a meal or two -- but I do believe that long term caloric restriction can be dangerous, and I am not terribly convinced that hcg does much to mediate that.

Even the strictest of protocol followers tend to find themselves cold, low energy, and weak at the end of a long round. I have a hard time understanding how this isn't a sign that the body is struggling to protect itself against the possibility of starving.

I'm sure there are a lot of factors at play here -- muscle mass, activity level, individual metabolic differences, dieting history, hormones, and so forth --

Some people bounce back quickly and stabilize well after restricting, and others just don't seem to do that.

[nola baxter]

Originally Posted by julieboolie

Afer this past round a few months ago, I decided to try something else after I was pretty stable. The past few months I've been practicing RRARF (which is Matt Stone's ideas about resting and refeeding - very fun to try out!!) to boost your metabolism. His concept is that if we eat more, heavily of starches too, and our bodies gain some weight, that eventually our metabolism kicks in and will burn off those extra calories rather than allow us to continue gaining weight. Thereby speeding up our metabolisms. It's a nice idea, but gaining the 10lbs I did to test it out was kinda' painful (hence this round). But, that said, I did see a levelling off. I didn't continue to gain over a certain point and it was quite fun!! I was hoping to get my body to the point where it could take "normal" eating and not gain from it. I found that even though I felt pretty good coming off my last round, I still had to watch carbs more than "most" people. I hope that my RRARFing has me less sensitive to them now. We'll see in few weeks once I'm done this. I'll do a full, strict LC P3, but then I will add back some carby things and test the waters. I need to be controlled though, not go hog wild!!

Nola!! Good to see you. With the very lean folk, I think that danger is much higher. I don't think for those of us who are well padded there is as much danger. Like you said, there are some who seem more sucseptable to it than others. Lots of factors, exercise, diet, hormones, etc. all come into play. I'm still searching for the balance, but this article gave me encouragement that "starvation mode" isn't as easy to get into as we're all told.

Hi Julie

I have been reading up Matt Stone a lot lately!
It is good to see you have been there too .

I have not fully dived into RRARF. I love the idea though- its just having the courage to fully go there, and the ability to accept the weight gain, and the hope and trust it will come off naturally and balance out at the end!

I did let go and eat to appetite for a while though- which felt really good in my body-
but weight gain happened for sure!

I think you have done really well from hcg- and some people seem to have!

I think the point Mini makes is true though- about even protocol followers finding themselves cold, low in energy and weak at the end of a long round;
Matt Stone would see these as markers of lower metabolic functioning,
and lesser body functioning as a whole.

When I was fatter I was still very susceptible to metabolic slowdown- but this was without using hhcg-
maybe being fatter and using hhcg would have lessened that effect. I dont know and dont want to gain weight just to try it out..lol


.

[minimonkey]

I tend to agree with Matt Stone on a lot of points -- though I take him with a grain of salt, as I do all the "experts" and their wildly disagreeing viewpoints.

I do think that feeling tired, cold, weak, and lethargic are all signs of trouble -- and that what works for one person may backfire horribly for another.

[Lildrew]

Originally Posted by julieboolie

Mini- you, and your craziness!! But, I'm not sure your crazy extended round is typical hcg experience. You also did some rogue additions to the plan, which according to both Simeon and Woodall (who's work is quite intriguing) would GREATLY impact your ability to stabilize. The length of your rounds, and the lack of a long break between them, definitely made your situation much worse. And, lets face it, you really are already pretty lean, so your "abnormal" fat stores are much smaller than most of us. The rebound gain from a rogue round seems to be much higher than a more strict protocol round. The theory that if you overdo calories on the VLCDs w. the hcg in your system you'll store fat much more easily. That hormonal "switch" that tells your body to "store, store, store" stays "on" and even when you transition off of hcg and start P3, your body is likely to continue gaining. Theoretically, if the leptin levels are just right (hcg should help assure that's the case) and your calories are very low, your body should seek additional fuel from your stored fat. That's supposed to be the "magic" of hcg.
That said, the whole leptin/hormone control of our body's metabolism and when it burns fat vs. when it stores it is still a mystery to most scientists. There are lots of studies, theories, explanations, etc. and most of them contradict one another . I almost get what Robin talks about w. the leptin and it's control. But there are so many variables, and conflicting studies.



I'd love someone to be able to clarify all of this!! I've spent years reading and researching (and experimenting on myself). Not sure about JUDDD and many of it's claims. The sirt1 gene, the starvation mode, the "tricking" the body to keep it out of starvation mode, etc. all kinda' sketchy to me. The calorie cycling idea has been around a long time and I do buy the "keep the body guessing" approach to both diet and exercise. I also think, like you seem to, that if we have the abnormal stores of fat, our bodies *should* access those for fuel before choosing lean muscle or "good" fat. From experience, I can tell you that my body does seem to burn my stored fat while following the VLCDs. I've "dieted" for years, but this is the one plan that seems to lose from all the right places!! I do buy into some of the hormonal impact of the hcg. As for maintenance, I haven't really been very good at it. I did have a few rounds where w. the occasional CD I was able to eat quite a bit, added chocolate and froyo w/o gains and was pretty happy.

Afer this past round a few months ago, I decided to try something else after I was pretty stable. The past few months I've been practicing RRARF (which is Matt Stone's ideas about resting and refeeding - very fun to try out!!) to boost your metabolism. His concept is that if we eat more, heavily of starches too, and our bodies gain some weight, that eventually our metabolism kicks in and will burn off those extra calories rather than allow us to continue gaining weight. Thereby speeding up our metabolisms. It's a nice idea, but gaining the 10lbs I did to test it out was kinda' painful (hence this round). But, that said, I did see a levelling off. I didn't continue to gain over a certain point and it was quite fun!! I was hoping to get my body to the point where it could take "normal" eating and not gain from it. I found that even though I felt pretty good coming off my last round, I still had to watch carbs more than "most" people. I hope that my RRARFing has me less sensitive to them now. We'll see in few weeks once I'm done this. I'll do a full, strict LC P3, but then I will add back some carby things and test the waters. I need to be controlled though, not go hog wild!!

Nola!! Good to see you. With the very lean folk, I think that danger is much higher. I don't think for those of us who are well padded there is as much danger. Like you said, there are some who seem more sucseptable to it than others. Lots of factors, exercise, diet, hormones, etc. all come into play. I'm still searching for the balance, but this article gave me encouragement that "starvation mode" isn't as easy to get into as we're all told.

[nola baxter]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

I tend to agree with Matt Stone on a lot of points -- though I take him with a grain of salt, as I do all the "experts" and their wildly disagreeing viewpoints.

I do think that feeling tired, cold, weak, and lethargic are all signs of trouble -- and that what works for one person may backfire horribly for another.

I guess in the end it comes down to everyone navigating their own personal territory.

Someone made a comment on the Matt Stone site once where he said he simply treated the site as a source of ideas,
the same as he had learnt to do for Dr Mercola's site.
I thought that a good comment- ie, ideas, not an absolute authority!

I did like it though once when someone was hassling Matt and saying,
how come we are hearing all of the negativities about this diet (GAPS);
what about RRARF- what about RRARF failures, how come we dont hear about those.
Matt Stone simply said-
"There are lots of RRARF failures. It doesnt work for everyone. One guy - Yves -
has written a very good blog post on how/why it didnt work for him.."

[HappyChick]

I think the most important aspect to not losing extraordinary amounts of muscle mass during a vlcdiet is to practice some sort of resistance training- as much as your own energy level will permit.

Here is a pretty cool little tool to assess the number of calories YOUR body needs in order to maintain muscle mass. It may not be 100% accurate- but, based on standard accepted formulas- it's probably pretty close! After you've entered your info, clicked 'calculate' and your results have appeared- roll your mouse over any of the calculations for their definitions. My personal number of cals to maintain muscle, for my weight and BMI, is lower than the 500 on protocol. YMMV!

IF Calculator

[shelbyla]

Wow! I am seriously undereating according to this unless I am doing something wrong. Hmmmmm...may try upping my calories again...

[becky7474]

I love that study.

[julieboolie]

Loving that calculator!! My "moderately active" lifestyle is supposed to mean I can eat about 900 more calories a day!! Really? I don't think that's the case. But it'd be nice if it were!! 2025cals would be tough to maintain.

Baby steps for me. I'm in week 3 of P2 right now, then on to P3 in a bit . We'll see how low I can go this round, possibly extending (which I really don't want to do, but if I'm still losing well I would love to get into the mid to low 140's. That'd be a dream come true and keep me from toying with another round some day).

[minimonkey]

Julie -- SO glad your round is going so well! I hope this is the one that gets you to goal and allows you to stay there for good -- Lord knows you deserve that!

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Julie -- SO glad your round is going so well! I hope this is the one that gets you to goal and allows you to stay there for good -- Lord knows you deserve that!