Atkins/Other Plans after HCG

[SunnyFL]

How frustrating!!!!!! BUT at least they did run blood tests. Do you know when the results will come back?

As for food allergies, they can suddenly develop...I never was allergic to macadamia nuts but lo and behold after eating them almost daily, I started getting horrid, horrid, IBS and stomach aches that left me incapable of getting out of bed!!! So maybe that might be a good idea to do a fast. Slowly start adding things in...

Fingers toes, and paws over here crossed for ya babe!

[minimonkey]

Congratulations on your new job, Sunny! That's awesome.

Yeah, I am feeling rather livid at the moment, but it is more or less what I expected. I was just able to change back to my old doctor with Kaiser, though, and I like her pretty well. If the tests show nothing, and this doesn't resolve, I will make a follow up with her.


This was one of those "same day appointment" deals -- so I got whomever was available.

They said two to three days for the lab results, but maybe it will be sooner -- I'll keep checking online.

I am going to go work out, and at least take advantage of some of the anabolic potential of the post-dieting window. At least I am fairly sure this isn't my heart, so that's good -- oh, and my temperature was 98.4! That's like a record high for me, so all this eating and gaining has apparently done me some good in the metabolism department, too. (of course it is warm here today, but still -- it usually runs rather low.)

My blood pressure was normal too (122/70).

[minimonkey]

I know that food allergies can show up at any time, which is part of why I am thinking the elimination fast is a good idea. This reaction is so odd, I think it must be a sensitivity to something.

[sunday]

Mini,
Your bp and body temp sound great. Can't wait to hear about the blood tests. Keep your chin up girl! I am inspired by you!

[EmBee]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Congratulations on your new job, Sunny! That's awesome.

Yeah, I am feeling rather livid at the moment, but it is more or less what I expected. I was just able to change back to my old doctor with Kaiser, though, and I like her pretty well. If the tests show nothing, and this doesn't resolve, I will make a follow up with her.


This was one of those "same day appointment" deals -- so I got whomever was available.

They said two to three days for the lab results, but maybe it will be sooner -- I'll keep checking online.

I am going to go work out, and at least take advantage of some of the anabolic potential of the post-dieting window. At least I am fairly sure this isn't my heart, so that's good -- oh, and my temperature was 98.4! That's like a record high for me, so all this eating and gaining has apparently done me some good in the metabolism department, too. (of course it is warm here today, but still -- it usually runs rather low.)

My blood pressure was normal too (122/70).

Mini I am glad that it wasn't your heart!!! Your BP looks really good. I hope the test results give some kind of clue. I am fairly certain they would have only run a TSH as well. Believing the best for you. Now I will scoot back over to my HCG corner...hahaha

[minimonkey]

Urinalysis just came back, and it is fine -- (I can see results online when they are ready) -- I did show negative for ketones, though -- surprising given I am so low carb. Something is keeping me out of ketosis -- guess a truly strict induction is in order.

I can do that.

I may pick up some ketostix so I can see when I do get into ketosis -- that will help identify the offending food in that department.

[manders]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Urinalysis just came back, and it is fine -- (I can see results online when they are ready) -- I did show negative for ketones, though -- surprising given I am so low carb. Something is keeping me out of ketosis -- guess a truly strict induction is in order.

I can do that.

I may pick up some ketostix so I can see when I do get into ketosis -- that will help identify the offending food in that department.

Any idea what it could be?

[minimonkey]

Well, I just read that long term low carbers often don't show ketones in urine anymore, so perhaps that isn't the issue -- I'm the very definition of keto-adapted!

But, yes, I do have some hunches for lack of ketosis/water retention -- Greek yogurt being the prime suspect. I crave the stuff, and that is often the sign of a food allergy or sensitivity, so I think it has to go

I'll throw the last of it in sweetie's smoothie, and not get any more. The stuff I get is only 5 carbs a serving, but I suspect I have an insulin response to it -- and perhaps to most or all dairy products Hunch number two is almonds/almond butter -- another food I crave.

I think I will go strict induction starting tomorrow -- basically protein and veggies only -- and see where that gets me. No nuts, no dairy -- I'll keep the coconut fats for now, and hope those are ok. Meat. Lots of meat, and veggies, and some more meat. I can do that.

Now that I have faced the scale, I will keep getting on it -- that should give me some indication what is and isn't working.

On a positive note, I had a truly good workout tonight -- lifted strong and steady, and had good stamina -- that surprised me, given how lousy I've been feeling.

[minimonkey]

This is surely an interesting, if frustrating, learning experience.

Barring anything serious being wrong with my body, I do think I am experiencing what bodybuilders do after a contest, which is really similar to what anorexics go through in recovery -- refeeding edema. The crazy hunger is part of the syndrome, too.

Interestingly, there is a lot of info on bodybuilders and anorexics, but very little out there about normal dieters who go through this -- that all gets chalked up to "lack of control and regain" I think. Given how severely a lot of us diet, I'm thinking that far more people go through this than is ever recognized.

People start to gain (fluid, mostly) in response to starvation -- then freak and lower calories, and come to the conclusion that they can't eat more than 1000 calories, ever, or they will balloon up. The longer the cycle continues, the more true this becomes... but it is because the body never stops starving.

Essentially, it is the body's response to long term starvation and then getting sufficient nutrition again (and yes, I do recognize that my very prolonged p2s were turning into exercises in starvation.)

For those recovering from restrictive eating disorders (whether clinically underweight, or not) the recommended treatment is to rest, rest, rest, and eat, eat, eat, no matter how far the scale jumps with all the water and such -- or how much the body initially swells up. Pay attention to hunger, and eat to satisfy it. If the hunger is bottomless, eat constantly. This is such a scary thought -- but that is also what my intuition is telling me to do!

Bodybuilders take a different approach -- they eat -- sometimes moderately at first, but often not moderately at all -- and they KILL IT HARDCORE in the gym, often packing on the best muscle of the season in a few short weeks.

The advice there is to go back to a clean diet, with adequate calories, and bulk the heck up while the body is primed for it.

Of course, there's another option -- go back to starving indefinitely, and ultimately make everything worse. I suspect this is what a lot of normal dieters do.

I'm going option B -- clean diet, and pack on as much muscle as I can. I'll still try the elimination of potential problem foods, in case this is a food intolerance -- but I am thinking that dropping the calories is a terrible idea.

I'm beginning to think that Matt Stone, and all his talk of RRARFing, isn't so crazy after all... in fact, he just might be right.

[minimonkey]

In retrospect, I really, really wish I had added calories back very slowly -- that seems to work for the bodybuilders who can make it happen -- and it circumvents a lot of this stuff.

[sunday]

Mini,
This is very interesting and I am thankful you are figuring this out. How long were you in P2? I guess I didn't realize that you were prolonged VLCD and I am wondering if doing JUDDD was not helping but hurting!

Wishing you much relief in your new Atkins induction! We are all rooting for you.

[SunnyFL]

Well thank goodness the urinalysis is ok. I know it's frustrating not finding something but at the same time good nothing is showing up.

I'll be doing induction in a week and a half...the new atkins suggests I go straight to OWL but I figure a week or maybe two weeks in induction can't hurt as I've been consuming carbs.

Weighed in today and STS at 141.4!! WTH!!! LOL....I was shocked, even brought out my dumbells to put on the scale to verify it was ok lol...I am in awe.....after my food feast...it's nuts...but I did use the restroom LOTS...always happens when I consume sugar and white flours, my body is like UGH, out now!!!!!!

Still not eating much today cuz I'll be stuffing my face later today, so it might show tomorrow...you know sometimes bodies are weird...just going with the flow

Just of out curiosity, did you ever do FFF Mini?

[DebbyL]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

But, yes, I do have some hunches for lack of ketosis/water retention -- Greek yogurt being the prime suspect. I crave the stuff, and that is often the sign of a food allergy or sensitivity, so I think it has to go

Hey Mini,
Do you have any idea how long it takes for the body to respond to the offending food being removed? I'm still having the same issue, and have tried removing things, with no results. What my conclusion is, is my hypothyroid condition has returned... heart's slowed down to low 40's again...running to Dr. for natural thyroid, see it that helps...

Hope you get your answers!

[catjrow3]

Zoe, sorry to hear the doctor was a "butt" I pretty much got the same kind of response to my trip to the doctor. All my blood work was fine too, they did the ultrasound, looking for clots in my legs, and all that was fine too, kidneys and heart were okay as well. Just ridiculous swelling/water retention. I was hoping you would find a better reason for yours, but hopefully it will go away quickly for you!

I got an injury last night at kickboxing. Very upset since I have a trip to California coming up next week, and now I am boo-boo'd... its an exercise trip too.... Turbo Kickboxing Camp for 4 days... I am going to baby it as much as possible for the next few days and hope for the best. So no exercise for me!

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

People start to gain (fluid, mostly) in response to starvation -- then freak and lower calories, and come to the conclusion that they can't eat more than 1000 calories, ever, or they will balloon up. The longer the cycle continues, the more true this becomes... but it is because the body never stops starving. .

I also wanted to mention excess protein can be converted to sugars. I think that's been my problem, why maintenance was so hard. It also drastically raises insulin. It's apparently only a problem with certain people. I really am missing my protein, but starting to get used to it. Anyways, I have the enthusiasm of the newly converted right now. Google optimal diet and sugarfree goodies protocol if you want more info. I'm sure you've seen endless discussions of this sort of stuff. I've always dismissed it before because protein is so satisfying...and I spent so much of my life in a protein starved half vegetarian state (getting fatter eating "healthy").

I've seen several discussions of people that can only eat 1200 calories or so high protein lowcarb, that have been able to eat far more lowering the protein and upping the fat. Not really what I'm doing right now, but I will focus on high fat low protein when I refocus off weight loss onto maintenance.

I'm at my third day in a row with a 129 number. Despite ovulation weight.

[EmBee]

Originally Posted by paulabob

I also wanted to mention excess protein can be converted to sugars. I think that's been my problem, why maintenance was so hard. It also drastically raises insulin. It's apparently only a problem with certain people. I really am missing my protein, but starting to get used to it. Anyways, I have the enthusiasm of the newly converted right now. Google optimal diet and sugarfree goodies protocol if you want more info. I'm sure you've seen endless discussions of this sort of stuff. I've always dismissed it before because protein is so satisfying...and I spent so much of my life in a protein starved half vegetarian state (getting fatter eating "healthy").

I've seen several discussions of people that can only eat 1200 calories or so high protein lowcarb, that have been able to eat far more lowering the protein and upping the fat. Not really what I'm doing right now, but I will focus on high fat low protein when I refocus off weight loss onto maintenance.



I'm at my third day in a row with a 129 number. Despite ovulation weight.

Wow thanks I did forget this !! I knew it at one time

[EmBee]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Well, I just read that long term low carbers often don't show ketones in urine anymore, so perhaps that isn't the issue -- I'm the very definition of keto-adapted!

But, yes, I do have some hunches for lack of ketosis/water retention -- Greek yogurt being the prime suspect. I crave the stuff, and that is often the sign of a food allergy or sensitivity, so I think it has to go

I'll throw the last of it in sweetie's smoothie, and not get any more. The stuff I get is only 5 carbs a serving, but I suspect I have an insulin response to it -- and perhaps to most or all dairy products Hunch number two is almonds/almond butter -- another food I crave.

I think I will go strict induction starting tomorrow -- basically protein and veggies only -- and see where that gets me. No nuts, no dairy -- I'll keep the coconut fats for now, and hope those are ok. Meat. Lots of meat, and veggies, and some more meat. I can do that.

Now that I have faced the scale, I will keep getting on it -- that should give me some indication what is and isn't working.

On a positive note, I had a truly good workout tonight -- lifted strong and steady, and had good stamina -- that surprised me, given how lousy I've been feeling.

I know you are very healthy person, and you may already know this, but I stumbled on an article in one of my old "First" magazines this afternoon. A lady started drinking water to be healthy and GAINED 9lbs. I thought of you as I was reading this. The reason was the fluoride in the water was monkeying around with the hormones (especially thyroid and some others...dont have the article in front of me) causing the GAIN. Anyway some waters still have fluoride even though they say they don't. Just a thought

[CherylB]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Cheryl -- the bites sound awful! I have found apple cider vinegar helpful with bug bites -- I've never tried the aspirin thing. If they are infected, ichthammol ointment (from the drug store) helps a lot. It pulls the infection out.

thanks, mini. wish i had seen this post yesterday, when they were still bad. acv is something i have. i'm sure i'll have fresh bites before long. i'll give it a whirl.

Originally Posted by SunnyFL

Cheryl I tried the lemonade idea of just lemons, but instead I used Limes, as our neighbor has massive lime and key lime trees...used ezsweets and it came out pretty good...so thanks for that idea!!!

As for my new job I start August 14th, so excited! And the Principal, who is starting new at the school too, was an Assistant Principal at my old high school and I worked closely with him when I was a teacher. So he knows me and is excited I'm working on his team too, so that is just icing on my lowcarb cake! God has been so good to me, I had a tough, tough year at my former school, but it lead me to analyze my life, decide to lose weight and learn as much as I could and help as many students as possible. Prayed a lot, had a crew praying for me LOL...and well I landed a job at one of the best middle schools in the county
Sometimes life surprises you...

Gonna roll myself off the couch and walk my wawa's around the block, I am SOooo stuffed, ewww

I'm glad the lime-ade came out good! I prefer limes to lemons and I wish we had lime trees here. But alas. (BTW: I'm always slow on the uptake. I now realize why your name is SunnyFl. Pitiful, isn't it?)

God is indeed good! So glad for you that your prayers were heard and given such a wonderful answer. May your new job bless you, your family and all the children you help. Childhood and young adulthood can be so stressful.

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Congratulations on your new job, Sunny! That's awesome.

Yeah, I am feeling rather livid at the moment, but it is more or less what I expected. I was just able to change back to my old doctor with Kaiser, though, and I like her pretty well. If the tests show nothing, and this doesn't resolve, I will make a follow up with her.

This was one of those "same day appointment" deals -- so I got whomever was available.

They said two to three days for the lab results, but maybe it will be sooner -- I'll keep checking online.

I am going to go work out, and at least take advantage of some of the anabolic potential of the post-dieting window. At least I am fairly sure this isn't my heart, so that's good -- oh, and my temperature was 98.4! That's like a record high for me, so all this eating and gaining has apparently done me some good in the metabolism department, too. (of course it is warm here today, but still -- it usually runs rather low.)

My blood pressure was normal too (122/70).

Zoe, was this like a walk-in clinic? If so, that would be the reason why. I'm glad you were seen and I hope that the ultrasound is done very soon. If you don't hear something tomorrow, call them and rattle their chain. It doesn't sound like they did an EKG which puzzles me to no end.

Please keep us posted of any news regarding your situation and lab results, etc. Can't wait to find out what is the problem and hope and pray they do find the cause.

Originally Posted by DebbyL

Hey Mini,
Do you have any idea how long it takes for the body to respond to the offending food being removed? I'm still having the same issue, and have tried removing things, with no results. What my conclusion is, is my hypothyroid condition has returned... heart's slowed down to low 40's again...running to Dr. for natural thyroid, see it that helps...

Hope you get your answers!

I wanted to share something that happened to me twice and it ended up being a reaction to taking an allergy pill with a decongestant. My BP shot up to the 200's/100's (I'm talking like 130's) and my HR dropped into the 40's. Reading about your slow HR caused me to think of that episode. It was very frightening and I didn't know what was the cause. I was taking oral lasix and even took a second lisinopril for the day. All along, it was the dang Clariten-D.

Originally Posted by catjrow3

Zoe, sorry to hear the doctor was a "butt" I pretty much got the same kind of response to my trip to the doctor. All my blood work was fine too, they did the ultrasound, looking for clots in my legs, and all that was fine too, kidneys and heart were okay as well. Just ridiculous swelling/water retention. I was hoping you would find a better reason for yours, but hopefully it will go away quickly for you!

I got an injury last night at kickboxing. Very upset since I have a trip to California coming up next week, and now I am boo-boo'd... its an exercise trip too.... Turbo Kickboxing Camp for 4 days... I am going to baby it as much as possible for the next few days and hope for the best. So no exercise for me!

oh no!! how bad is it? where does it hurt? get well rapidly. i hope you don't reinjure yourself at that camp. is that your idea of a vacation? not me, momma!

Originally Posted by paulabob

I also wanted to mention excess protein can be converted to sugars. I think that's been my problem, why maintenance was so hard. It also drastically raises insulin. It's apparently only a problem with certain people. I really am missing my protein, but starting to get used to it. Anyways, I have the enthusiasm of the newly converted right now. Google optimal diet and sugarfree goodies protocol if you want more info. I'm sure you've seen endless discussions of this sort of stuff. I've always dismissed it before because protein is so satisfying...and I spent so much of my life in a protein starved half vegetarian state (getting fatter eating "healthy").

I've seen several discussions of people that can only eat 1200 calories or so high protein lowcarb, that have been able to eat far more lowering the protein and upping the fat. Not really what I'm doing right now, but I will focus on high fat low protein when I refocus off weight loss onto maintenance.

I'm at my third day in a row with a 129 number. Despite ovulation weight.

sounds very interesting. i googled it and will read it soon. so happy that you're happy!

[minimonkey]

Test results first, then comments:

Blood test is back. Most of it looks fine. My total cholesterol shows a tiny bit high .. but the LDL is only 130, with a preferred range of less than 129, so I am not particularly worried about that. I know opinions differ as to what an optimal number is for that, too.

HDL is 116, so that is good -- they wanted 45 or more. The overall cholesterol number shows a bit high though... trying to figure out what that means in Kaiser-land.

Sodium was on the high end of the normal spectrum, and even with all the supplementation, potassium was still on the low end of normal, so I will keep supplementing with that. Dietary sodium shouldn't be a problem -- I eat/drink very little salt -- so my body is retaining it for some reason.

Everything else looks okay, though it wasn't a very thorough panel. TSH showed quite low -- I know a TSH test alone doesn't determine much, but at least my thyroid is in quite good shape from that perspective.

[CherylB]

What was your Creatinine level? Surely that was part of the panel.

[minimonkey]

Okay, well, looks like the total cholesterol count is high because it includes the HDL number -- although they still prefer a lower total number, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I know the entire theory of blood cholesterol being dangerous is under fire, anyhow, and was based on questionable data in the first place.

[minimonkey]

Creatinine was fine -- well within normal range. .66 was my figure --- normal was considered less than 1.11 -- don't know if those numbers mean anything to you, Cheryl --- they don't to me....

[minimonkey]

Whoohoo Paula on the 129 number! (That's where I was this morning, too -- which is down a couple of pounds from yesterday for me.) I think I'm shooting for a goal of 110 this time ... with the additional muscle mass, that is probably as low as I reasonably want to go.

I've read that about protein being converted to sugars -- I have been eating high fat, moderate protein, low carb for that very reason. If I go strict induction, it'll be a lot harder to do the moderate protein, but I am willing to give it a go and see how it treats me.

Cheryl, it wasn't exactly a walk-in clinic -- but same day appointments at Kaiser are a bit like going to the Supercuts of health -- you get whomever is available.

No, they didn't do an EKG -- I guess since bp was fine, and heart sounded fine, they deemed that unnecessary. Kaiser is all about saving themselves money. My resting pulse is high, but it always has been.

Cathy -- I'm not surprised it played out this way -- this is more the norm than not in terms of my experiences with doctors.

I am going to call and schedule the ultrasound today -- I figure I may as well have it done -- they're looking at the liver/gallbladder area, and I have a history of gallbladder problems.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

I think I'm shooting for a goal of 110 this time ... with the additional muscle mass, that is probably as low as I reasonably want to go. .

Awesome that's my goal too...although it will probably be "skinny fat" on me (5'2" very small frame not much muscle). I was 95 in high school and not particularly bony...just looked curvy and good at 110 generally.

[minimonkey]

Cathy -- sorry to hear you are injured! The kickboxing camp sounds awesome to me -- I hope you heal quickly and can have a blast at camp.

[minimonkey]

Thanks, everyone, for letting me post all this, and for all the feedback! I am hoping this will apply to others who may be having the same problems.

Sunday -- I spent at least half of last year on pretty restricted calories (less than 1000) -- and I do think it did some real damage and whacked out my bodily systems something fierce. I think JUDDD was a terrible idea for me at this particular point in time for that very reason. Even following the higher calories for exercise guidelines, I still end up being in a pretty restricted state overall with JUDDD -- and I think my body is kicking up a huge fuss about any sort of restriction.

I know a lot of people do well on JUDDD -- and even manage to work out pretty heavily -- and I may try it again a little bit down the road. I am not sure it is a good idea to do it that soon after a prolonged stint on HCG, though.

Paula --

Even though I am shorter than you are, I definitely look skinny at 100 lbs or lower -- bony in places. This was true even in high school, when I had a lot less muscle mass than I do now.

I think 110 will actually be reasonably lean on me at this point -- my muscle mass has increased pretty dramatically in the past few months, and I am hitting the weights fairly heavy at the moment.

I'm completely confused as to where to go, dietarily, from here. I can't tell how much of my body's current state is water, and how much is fat -- but I think a great deal of it is water retention -- it is probably a rebound effect from all the restricting, and it gets worse with each round of p2 that I do -- so that is definitely not an option in the near future.

I think I am just going to hang with the Atkins for now, and live with the miserable discomfort of the rebound effect -- and keep working out as much as my body can handle. I'm thinking this will even out, in time, and my body will heal itself, as long as I don't start restricting calories again. My hunger levels have normalized a lot already, so that's a good indication that something is going the right direction.

[minimonkey]

I see a fair number of hcg-ers having trouble stabilizing, and a few with rebound effects similar to what I'm experiencing -- and I am wondering how many of us are setting ourselves up for this with the repeated p2s.

I know the hcg protocol works well for a lot of people, but I think some of us end up doing more harm than good with it -- especially if we end up going back to p2 time and time again, and not being able to stabilize even with diligent p3 efforts.

I don't know -- I hesitate to even say that, because I don't want to discourage anyone who might be likely to do well on the protocol -- but I also feel like I am a good example of what NOT to do with hcg -- and I hope that sharing all this will save someone else from getting stuck in the same conundrum.

[DebbyL]

Well, I just got back from seeing the Dr & getting my test results. Last week my TSH was almost 5 this week its 7.43; T3 is 1.1; t4 is 16.4
Its no wonder I'm in such a brain fog & metabolism is slowing down. I actually got the Dr. that doesn't care about T3 & T4; and he doesn't like natural thyroid, but went ahead & gave me a prescription for it. Wants me to get tested again in a week, to see if the dose is helping. I can't get in to see the NP till next week, so I was so glad to get the prescription from him. Pretty cheap too!
I picked it up & took a dose right away!! I need relief!
My daughter & her family will be arriving tonight. I sure need some energy!!!
Oh, he also said the wt. gain would be from the thyroid levels going out of whack...
Thanks friends, for sticking in here with me. Its great to talk to people who understand & sympathize!

[paulabob]

Huh, I've petered out on every diet method I've tried, even coming back again and again (Weight watchers, atkins, hcg). It did get me closer to my goal than ever before.

Now I'm feeling hopeful again...will be so excited to actually reach goal. You know I'm the same weight as I was last August. I hope this lower protein, slightly starchier low carb is the ticket for me this time. Considering I gained weight doing Protein Power...maybe it is.

[EmBee]

Originally Posted by DebbyL

Well, I just got back from seeing the Dr & getting my test results. Last week my TSH was almost 5 this week its 7.43; T3 is 1.1; t4 is 16.4
Its no wonder I'm in such a brain fog & metabolism is slowing down. I actually got the Dr. that doesn't care about T3 & T4; and he doesn't like natural thyroid, but went ahead & gave me a prescription for it. Wants me to get tested again in a week, to see if the dose is helping. I can't get in to see the NP till next week, so I was so glad to get the prescription from him. Pretty cheap too!
I picked it up & took a dose right away!! I need relief!
My daughter & her family will be arriving tonight. I sure need some energy!!!
Oh, he also said the wt. gain would be from the thyroid levels going out of whack...
Thanks friends, for sticking in here with me. Its great to talk to people who understand & sympathize!

Debbie I take Nature-throid and really like it and its cheap!