Atkins/Other Plans after HCG

[goddesslynne]

Debby!! Great news!!

[minimonkey]

Whooohooo Debby!!!!!!!

I'm curious -- did something change before all this started? Was it when you went on supplements, or transitioned to p3?

In some ways, what happened to you sounds really similar to what happened to me (except the blood pressure/heart involvement) -- so I am wondering if there is any common ground here....

SO glad you are feeling so much better, and that the water retention finally left!!!!

I wish I could get my water balance back to normal too!

I've forgotten -- are you on p2 or p3/p4 right now? It looks from your signature like you aren't doing a round at the moment....

[minimonkey]

Also, just as a point of reference -- we had a woman a couple of years ago who went off plan for 4 days at Thanksgiving ... she gained 20 lbs in 4 days! Sadly, she then disappeared, so I have no idea how that turned out -- but obviously some/most of that was major water retention -- I'm wondering if this is just something that happens to some people on this protocol.... and if so, why....

[DebbyL]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Whooohooo Debby!!!!!!!

I'm curious -- did something change before all this started? Was it when you went on supplements, or transitioned to p3?

In some ways, what happened to you sounds really similar to what happened to me (except the blood pressure/heart involvement) -- so I am wondering if there is any common ground here....

SO glad you are feeling so much better, and that the water retention finally left!!!!

I wish I could get my water balance back to normal too!

I've forgotten -- are you on p2 or p3/p4 right now? It looks from your signature like you aren't doing a round at the moment....

Thanks girls,
I actually have never done HCG, I was thinking about using it, but was afraid to try it with all the health issues I had with my adrenals & thyroid, then BP. I have enjoyed y'alls conversation here, so felt this was the thread for me.
I am on a low-carb diet, with virgin coconut oil added recently, I also rotate my calories to keep from starvation mode. It has done well for me, for the first 32 lbs. Now for the last 8 or so lbs! But I am certainly learning patience... any loss is great! Especially getting my health back, and losing the water wt too. I am really excited to get home to an accurate scale, but will have to wait. My clothes are definitely getting baggy & my motorcycle pants just glide on now! So, I am getting there, probably lost more wt while the water retention was on.
It's been excellent while traveling, to have a Dr/ordered diet, because I haven't had to blow my diet to please some well-intentioned relative! And my husband has made a great effort in finding ways to get me the food I need & take me on walks.
So, it can be done!
Blessings friends,
Debby

[goddesslynne]

Uh oh, here we go again. I'm up for the 2nd day in a row with no cheating, and just mild rogue-ing. We've had record heat, and humidity, could that really do it? The news is calling for "dangerous heat" today. I am drinking more water.

ETA: The heat will not be breaking until Monday.

[RileyWorm]

I had a major headache at work today and so I thought I should eat chocolate. LOL. I had Peanut M&M's. Oh well. I also got a wrap to do tonight, I think I"m going to sleep with it on to help with my bloating. I'm still UP but starting to feel better again. I know part of it is from starting my workout (after only one week rest, I am SO SORE!). I haven't made it to the grocery store yet to buy my detoxifying stuff for the water...I am also thinking about starting EFGT and cutting some protein out.

Debby, great news about your BP!
Lynne, I think this heat is just crazy. It definitely makes me retain. My flip flops get tight across my feet and my rings get tight too. So I think its possible.
Mini, TWENTY pounds in four days! OMG I would cry!!

[goddesslynne]

well, a bit of good news: my lunch was delayed until 2:30 today and I wasn't hungry at all!!

[minimonkey]

Riley -- yeah, that poor woman *was* pretty much crying.

My gains weren't quite that quick, but nearly so -- 20 lbs came on crazy fast!

I've been reading a ton about metabolic damage from calorie restriction/overtraining/ refeeding rebound, etc. and I am almost positive that is what happened to me. I am learning a lot from all the reading, that's for sure. It's astounding how many people have this happen -- not just bodybuilders and anorexics, either -- and it does a huge number on the endocrine system as a whole. Combined with other stressors (like life, lol) it can set one up for a perfect storm and a complete systemic crash, and sometimes truly massive and uncontrolled gains. In my case, physical and emotional stress beyond my control, and Lyme, are both players in the equation.

This is where Matt Stone does seem to have it right --- part of the cure is to eat, rest, and repeat. Most metabolic repair advocates do suggest that eating carbs is critical to recovery, too.

Across the board, the opinions and experiences indicate that repeated efforts at dieting just make things worse, and that the very best results are from people who jump right in to eating liberally without restriction -- after the initial gain, the weight generally levels out when one does this, whereas it often keeps going up with continued restriction efforts.

It is also important to get support for the out-of-balance hormones, and to identify what conditions can be treated (such as thyroid).

So, to that end, I think I am going to be getting some testing done. My mom has kindly offered to pay for me to see my previous, very excellent doctor, and I think I am going to take her up on that!

At the very least, I'll be able to get a handle on my hormone profile, and take measures to correct that. It may take a little while to get an appointment, but it is worth the wait -- she's amazing.

[julieboolie]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Riley -- yeah, that poor woman *was* pretty much crying.

My gains weren't quite that quick, but nearly so -- 20 lbs came on crazy fast!

I've been reading a ton about metabolic damage from calorie restriction/overtraining/ refeeding rebound, etc. and I am almost positive that is what happened to me. I am learning a lot from all the reading, that's for sure. It's astounding how many people have this happen -- not just bodybuilders and anorexics, either -- and it does a huge number on the endocrine system as a whole. Combined with other stressors (like life, lol) it can set one up for a perfect storm and a complete systemic crash, and sometimes truly massive and uncontrolled gains. In my case, physical and emotional stress beyond my control, and Lyme, are both players in the equation.

This is where Matt Stone does seem to have it right --- part of the cure is to eat, rest, and repeat. Most metabolic repair advocates do suggest that eating carbs is critical to recovery, too.

Across the board, the opinions and experiences indicate that repeated efforts at dieting just make things worse, and that the very best results are from people who jump right in to eating liberally without restriction -- after the initial gain, the weight generally levels out when one does this, whereas it often keeps going up with continued restriction efforts.

It is also important to get support for the out-of-balance hormones, and to identify what conditions can be treated (such as thyroid).

So, to that end, I think I am going to be getting some testing done. My mom has kindly offered to pay for me to see my previous, very excellent doctor, and I think I am going to take her up on that!

At the very least, I'll be able to get a handle on my hormone profile, and take measures to correct that. It may take a little while to get an appointment, but it is worth the wait -- she's amazing.

I like seeing you summarize your research!! I'm lazy and it's like the "Reader's Digest" version . I'm glad to hear you're eating well. I was pleasantly surprised by how the metabollic refeeding worked for me. The weight gain was a necessary evil to get through to the other side. Matt Stone's ideas are somewhat valid, but it's a bit harder to overeat intentionally, especially sugar and starch, as a woman who's hormonally challenged. The thyroid hormones balance out better w/ more carbs too. I'm hoping once I am through P3 and P4 I'll be able to eat more carbs. It seems if I keep an eye on calories I can already tolerate more carbs than before. We'll see about the overall calorie load.

Keep plugging away ladies!! It's worth it!!

[minimonkey]

HI JULIE! So nice to see you!

Glad my research is helpful to others --

How long was your RRARF experiment all told? Your progress gives me a lot of hope

I got the gains out of the way fast and furious, lol -- my body gave me no choice on that one! I pretty much blinked, and had put on 15 lbs. The good news is that after the initial gain, it stopped, and I've been stable -- (meaning that I fared a lot better than some people do at this stage of the game).

My last attempts at losing completely failed -- the ketosis experiment, and then 9 days roguing a p2 yielded NADA in terms of losses ... and that, combined with increasingly bad rebound gains after the last couple of rounds, was enough to convince me that the cycle has to stop. I've done damage, and now I need to face that, and turn it around.

So, I am putting all my efforts into learning about this, and healing it. I'm not doing the total rest thing -- I'm still working out, but sanely -- lifting about 3-4 times a week, and throwing in a Bar Method if I am really jonesing for an additional workout. The working out feels great to me -- and with my body so primed for muscle growth after all the depletion, I can't let that window of opportunity pass. I am resting a lot overall, though -- and trying to get enough sleep. I've cut out all stimulants except for coffee, which is a big change from the stimulant-overload of last semester.

I'm not intentionally overeating -- but I am intentionally refraining from restriction, which is a bit different. (And surprisingly hard, after being SO used to dieting! My urge is to do a protocol round, thinking that would fix things.... yeah, right!)

After the crazy initial hunger was sated, my appetite has been pretty low, overall -- so I am making an effort to eat to my supposed maintenance level of about 1800-2000 calories. Those first couple of weeks, I could eat that and still feel ravenously hungry -- (and I did eat beyond that, when I was SO hungry!) -- but since that abated, I haven't generally wanted to eat more... and some days, I have to coax myself to eat that much. I think I am going to try pushing the calorie ceiling up a bit, though, if I can do it without gaining -- that seems wise at this point. I am eating a mixed diet, and I plan to continue that.

I am eating quite a lot of fruit -- it seems to agree with me and make me feel really good when I eat it (great energy boost, no crash from it.) I worry about the yeast-feeding potential, but I am keeping an eye on that.

I'm experimenting a bit with starches -- I've had hummus a few times, which I adore, but my gut isn't sure about it just yet ... I haven't eaten that sort of thing in a long time, so I will take enzymes with it the next time I try it, and see if that helps.

Tomorrow I plan to try a sweet potato (yum!).

For whatever damage I have done, I have netted a tremendous muscle gain in the past year -- my upper body development is really starting to show. I have development in the shoulders now, and am starting to show some in my back, too -- and I have actual mass in my biceps, not just definition.

I think it is the weight training that is making this tolerable. I have a great deal of potential with regards to bodybuilding .. my body builds muscle quite easily compared to most women. I've held myself back a great deal with all the calorie restriction -- so I have never come close to realizing my full muscle-building potential.

Now, since I have no real, viable choice but to run with being bigger and eating more for a while, I am going to glory in the opportunity to grow my muscles as much as I possibly can. Hopefully, after a period of doing that, I will have restored my metabolism enough to allow me to lean back down safely and sanely.

I wish I had been less bullheaded, and had listened to those of you whose advice could have saved me from all this turmoil -- but fear is a powerful thing, and I was so afraid of the gains... I dieted myself into a corner. I wanted to be skinny -- and I got skinny -- but the price was high.

In all fairness, when I got to goal before, I lacked muscle tone in a lot of areas. My upper body was a bit scrawny, and my lower body was still flabby, depite being small. The next time I get to goal (whatever that number may end up being) I am going to have a great deal more muscle, and I suspect I'll look a lot better for it in the long run.

Hopefully, I will also have a strong, robust metabolism, power and strength to my muscles (not just mass,) and a healthier body image no matter what I weigh on any given day.

I'm trying to look at all of this as an opportunity for positive change, rather than a big disaster.

[minimonkey]

Dude, that last post was novella-length, lol!

[goddesslynne]

Mini, so amazed at your resilience and grace!! You are one wise lady!! I am sending every healing vibe I can, and I hope we can keep this thread going because I definitely want to keep up to date with your progress! xo

I had a tiny drop this morning, so yay. I logged my food yesterday, and with the extra protein I was at a little over 800 calories. Maybe THAT'S why I'm not dropping!! I'm going to back off to exactly 100g. protein per meal, and see if that makes a difference. I'm also going to carefully scrutinize my veggies and see if I can simplify to reign in the calories.

I have been using a Trader Joe's pre-made salad with 50g. of pro. and 220 total calories (low fat). Adding 50-100g. of chicken to that, along with my co and hwc was what brought me to my total. I know, I shouldn't be using prepared salads like that, but baby steps for me. At least it's not MF!!

[julieboolie]

Lynne-you sound like you're on the right path!! Hope it keeps going well for you!!

Originally Posted by minimonkey

HI JULIE! So nice to see you!

Glad my research is helpful to others --

How long was your RRARF experiment all told? Your progress gives me a lot of hope

I got the gains out of the way fast and furious, lol -- my body gave me no choice on that one! I pretty much blinked, and had put on 15 lbs. The good news is that after the initial gain, it stopped, and I've been stable -- (meaning that I fared a lot better than some people do at this stage of the game).

My last attempts at losing completely failed -- the ketosis experiment, and then 9 days roguing a p2 yielded NADA in terms of losses ... and that, combined with increasingly bad rebound gains after the last couple of rounds, was enough to convince me that the cycle has to stop. I've done damage, and now I need to face that, and turn it around.

So, I am putting all my efforts into learning about this, and healing it. I'm not doing the total rest thing -- I'm still working out, but sanely -- lifting about 3-4 times a week, and throwing in a Bar Method if I am really jonesing for an additional workout. The working out feels great to me -- and with my body so primed for muscle growth after all the depletion, I can't let that window of opportunity pass. I am resting a lot overall, though -- and trying to get enough sleep. I've cut out all stimulants except for coffee, which is a big change from the stimulant-overload of last semester.

I'm not intentionally overeating -- but I am intentionally refraining from restriction, which is a bit different. (And surprisingly hard, after being SO used to dieting! My urge is to do a protocol round, thinking that would fix things.... yeah, right!)

After the crazy initial hunger was sated, my appetite has been pretty low, overall -- so I am making an effort to eat to my supposed maintenance level of about 1800-2000 calories. Those first couple of weeks, I could eat that and still feel ravenously hungry -- (and I did eat beyond that, when I was SO hungry!) -- but since that abated, I haven't generally wanted to eat more... and some days, I have to coax myself to eat that much. I think I am going to try pushing the calorie ceiling up a bit, though, if I can do it without gaining -- that seems wise at this point. I am eating a mixed diet, and I plan to continue that.

I am eating quite a lot of fruit -- it seems to agree with me and make me feel really good when I eat it (great energy boost, no crash from it.) I worry about the yeast-feeding potential, but I am keeping an eye on that.

I'm experimenting a bit with starches -- I've had hummus a few times, which I adore, but my gut isn't sure about it just yet ... I haven't eaten that sort of thing in a long time, so I will take enzymes with it the next time I try it, and see if that helps.

Tomorrow I plan to try a sweet potato (yum!).

For whatever damage I have done, I have netted a tremendous muscle gain in the past year -- my upper body development is really starting to show. I have development in the shoulders now, and am starting to show some in my back, too -- and I have actual mass in my biceps, not just definition.

I think it is the weight training that is making this tolerable. I have a great deal of potential with regards to bodybuilding .. my body builds muscle quite easily compared to most women. I've held myself back a great deal with all the calorie restriction -- so I have never come close to realizing my full muscle-building potential.

Now, since I have no real, viable choice but to run with being bigger and eating more for a while, I am going to glory in the opportunity to grow my muscles as much as I possibly can. Hopefully, after a period of doing that, I will have restored my metabolism enough to allow me to lean back down safely and sanely.

I wish I had been less bullheaded, and had listened to those of you whose advice could have saved me from all this turmoil -- but fear is a powerful thing, and I was so afraid of the gains... I dieted myself into a corner. I wanted to be skinny -- and I got skinny -- but the price was high.

In all fairness, when I got to goal before, I lacked muscle tone in a lot of areas. My upper body was a bit scrawny, and my lower body was still flabby, depite being small. The next time I get to goal (whatever that number may end up being) I am going to have a great deal more muscle, and I suspect I'll look a lot better for it in the long run.

Hopefully, I will also have a strong, robust metabolism, power and strength to my muscles (not just mass,) and a healthier body image no matter what I weigh on any given day.

I'm trying to look at all of this as an opportunity for positive change, rather than a big disaster.

I looked back through my ****** journal. It looks like I started reading up on RRARF once my P3/P4 started really getting challenging last round. Late April/Early May. I gained b/c of exercise and probably too many calories, and couldn't relose it. CDs were ineffective in the long run, and calories over 1000 seemed to cause gains. It was quite frustrating and sent me searching for metabollic help. I wanted to blame hcg and the low cals, but after reading WLA I felt like that wasn't really the cause. So, I read. Like you I found Matt Stone's info interesting. W/ vacation and bdays coming I decided to try RRARF for a while to see how I fared. My body temps, even on thyroid meds, are usually around the low 96's, so that guage appealed to me too. I followed loose RRARF for 2 months, give or take. I did a CD when I got home from vacation, and another in early July before loading for this past round. I kept the gain from it (before loading for this past round) to around 10lbs. That's with lots of indulgence - french fries, cupcakes, gelato . It was fun, freeing and although a bit scary, one of my favorite times of this past year. I loved the energy and freedom. My temps soared up to 97.6, even hit 98 a few days!! I felt better and although I didn't work out as strenuously, I did lift 1-2 days a week w. some HIIT. I felt strong enough to try shedding the fat before it became permanent, and did a quick 21 day hcg round. Strict protocol though, as I buy into the hormonal aspect and screwing around w. that whole mess is foolish!! Also the fact that non-protocol rounds make stabilizing nearly impossible!

So, what have I learned? well, first, carbs aren't evil!! I know, toughie for me to admit!! I'm a LCer for Life!! But, as I'm also thyroid and hormonally challenged (like you I can build muscle w. the best men around!) I seem to do better w. higher carbs. Not bread and pasta, but more fruit, plenty of yogurt and some chocolate too!

Second-refeeding was SOOOOO worth it!! The weight didn't stay forever. I was able to lose it, and my temps are still 97+. I'm in LC mode as I stabilize, but I'm tracking temps still and once I'm "stable" I plan to up the carbs more and see where I land.

Third-the rest portion is more important than I thought. Even adding in some light weight training in P3 I gained. I don't seem to be losing strength or muscle mass, so I'm skipping the lifting for a few more weeks. I'm asking a lot of my body-lose fat, stay this weight, etc. I am going to do things 1 day at a time. I know I can build muscle relatively easily. I just don't need to do it right now. The scale going up from exercise messes w. my head too much and it's not worth it for me.

I am glad to hear you're taking the gain in stride. It's hard, I totally know!! But the rest and refeed is crucial to your long term success. Once you feel like you're healed a bit (and give this some time) and you decide to try to lose the recent gain, if you do an hcg round, please do it by the book. I ask this not just b.c the losses are better and faster, but b/c the stabilization afterwards is really linked w. following the plan during P2. I can't tell you what to do, but what I've learned from my past rounds (both rogue and protocol) is that the rogue ones are just a waste of time in the long run. Any losses from them did not last.

There you go. Competing for the longest post award !

[DebbyL]

Hi gals,
Well, I spent the day on the back of a motorcycle, traveling in the heat of eastern Washington for 8 hours.
Ate my pre-cooked meat, was hoping for a salad to go with, but Burger King didn't have any plain salads... put cheese or croutons in them ahead of time. Oh well, still eating on my raw beets.
We did get a walk in after dinner, so that was great, but oh so tired!
I will be going into internet-no-mans-land tomorrow & stay there for a couple days...
Will miss y'all!

[minimonkey]

Lynne -- thank you so much for the lovely words -- I totally needed that today! Sometimes, blessings come in disguise, and they are hard to see when we are in the thick of them... but I try to find the positive in most of my challenges.

Julie, thank you for the long, thoughtful reply!

Can you say what it was, in weight loss apocalypse, that convinced you that the low calories weren't the problem for you? I'm very interested to know your views on that.

I think, for me, the low calories *were* a big part of the problem. My first round was protocol, and I ran it just a few days past the maximum round (I think it was 44 days) -- I was cold and depleted, and quite weak, by the end of it.

I wasn't working out for a good deal of the round, but even my regular life was starting to be pretty taxing by the end of it. Each round I've done since then -- protocol or rogue -- has gotten harder, and the rebound gains have been faster each time. Also, each time, I have shown the classic signs of metabolic slow down -- being cold, weak, lethargic, etc. I don't think the hcg (or hhcg) protected me from starvation mode, even the first time, when I did it all by the books.

I don't suspect I'll be doing another round of hcg -- rogue or no. I think I need to fix my system, and then lean out very slowly and sanely, preserving my muscle mass and metabolism in the process. I am too much an athlete to be monkeying around with any plan that requires me to stop working out.

I also don't want to lock myself into a life where I gain if I exceed 1000 calories, and can't lose to save my life ... no thank you on that one!

So, refeeding it is -- my weight is remarkably stable at the moment, and I plan to take advantage of that now, with muscle building, and metabolic repairing.

I will want to lean down again, but I need to fix the damage first, I think.

[minimonkey]

Lynne, I think the TJs salads are probably fine, all things considered. If you have time to cook from scratch, great... but if not, those are much better than soy laden food substitutes

[Katastic]

Originally Posted by RileyWorm

Hey guys! How's it going? Just wanna say good luck to you gals heading back to hcg. I can't say I haven't considered it but my lifestyle right now just isn't conducive to 500 calorie days. I have upped the fat and dropped the protein and I've lost 1 lb each day so far. So it seems its working for me so far. I've been making a delicious protein shake with 1 scoop chocolate, 15 oz water, 1 oz HWC, and 2 packets of instant coffee. Iced mocha! So delish.
Now I only have 5 more pounds until I've reached my comfort zone, then I want to lose another 6 past that.

Can I ask why the low protein?

__________________

You have to believe you can do it before you can see it happen. Our thoughts literally define us. Remember,

~~~ "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, either way you are right." - Henry Ford ~~~

Visit my blog at Roni-n-Cheese

[minimonkey]

Some of us have been tossing around the theory that higher protein can be a problem, since the body can convert it to sugar (gluconeogenesis)-- for those operating best in a nearly zero carb state, the additional fat and lowered protein seems to facilitate ketosis/lipolysis. It seems to work well for some, and not for others.... as is true for most everything...lol! Hope that helps.

[RileyWorm]

Of course I change my mind DAILY as to what approach I want to take; I am doing egg fasts today and yesterday and plan to start EFGT on Saturday. Obviously I know that eggs are high protein but I remembered when I did egg fasts before and they worked well for me so kindof doing it as a kick off. Unfortunately I didn't lost any on the scale, but I can DEFN tell I'm losing inches. I did do an It Works wrap on Wednesday so perhaps some of it is resulting from that. Anyway, some of my worries about the fast and furious gain is subsiding. I know I am eating right and am going to continue with my workouts. Though I did feel like Julie - this is why I am so sporadic with my workouts because everytime the scale jumps I freak out!


Hope you all have a wonderful friday!

[Katastic]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Some of us have been tossing around the theory that higher protein can be a problem, since the body can convert it to sugar (gluconeogenesis)-- for those operating best in a nearly zero carb state, the additional fat and lowered protein seems to facilitate ketosis/lipolysis. It seems to work well for some, and not for others.... as is true for most everything...lol! Hope that helps.

WHOA WHOA WHOA....lol. Okay I am not exaggerating here in the slightest when I say that I have taken 3 years of biochemistry, 2 semesters of genetics, 4 years of calculus/differential equations, and 1.5 years of physics (I am a student studying biochemistry and molecular biology...will soon be moving towards genetic engineering) and from my professional academic experience what you are saying makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

Your body converts EVERYTHING you eat into glucose be it fat, protein, or sugar. EVERYTHING you eat must be broken down into glucose before it can enter the citric acid cycle via respiration in the form of acetylCoA - it makes no difference if it has gone through glycolysis or glucognogensis.

It may seem to make since that eating more fat 'induces' ketosis, but that is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. The human body can only absorb a finite amount of fat and protein within a certain amount of time, the rest is excreted in the urine. More ketones may be present within the urine, but IT'S FROM THE FAT YOU'RE EATING not the fat you have stored in your body.

With that being said, eating high amounts of fat is an EXCELLENT way to lose weight. A ketogenic diet has been used by people suffering from epilepsy for centuries and it's clinical benefits (not just for weight-loss) are astonishing. However, it's mechanism is not effected by protein intake - even it's suggestion is absolutely absurd from a biochemical standpoint.

The reason that you lose weight while eating a very high fat diet is because of the metabolic limit of protein and fat absorption. You would be suprised how little fat and protein the human body can absorb compared to carbohydrates (we can continuously consume these sugars because they are immediately stored away by insulin when our blood sugar gets to high) which is why you gain weight from carbohydrates and not from fat or protein (the pancreas does not secrete insulin after you eat fat and protein). However, once you have met this metabolic limit for fat absorbtion you experience an overwhelming feeling of being full simultaneously as ketone bodies saturate your blood stream.

In other words, you lose weight eating high fat because your body can only absorb a fraction of the calories you are giving it and you will eat less simply because of how full you feel.

"Some of us have been tossing around the theory..." My dear, what you are tossing around is not a 'theory', it is the well studied physical and medical phenomena of the human metabolism that you are barely scratching the surface of being able to understand.

"Tossing around a theory" is exactly how these nut-jobs come up with wacky, home-brewed, lose 10 pounds in 2 hours, diets.

Please for all of our sakes, do not try and devise a new method of eating based upon some tidbits you learned about glucogneogensis from Wikipedia. There are many people who have dedicated their lives to the study of the human metabolism (not from the internet) and they all come down to the same conclusions:

1.) carbohydrates stimulate the release of insulin from the pancreas whose method of action is to store away glucose in the form of fatty acids.

2.) in a body that is deprived of carbohydrates the body resorts to using fatty acids as its main form of energy.

3.) whether the body creates ATP via glycolysis or glucogneogensis does not matter, the composition of one's body is determined by the amount of energy going in, the amount of energy going out, the concentration of insulin, and the status of one's metabolism (I.e. devoid any functional abnormalities such as hypothepyroidism or Cushings syndrome).

If you think the great minds of the world who have dedicated their lives to studying this have a weight-loss secret that they are holding out on you in curiosity of your ability to figure it out on your own, you are wrong.

I'm sorry, I did not mean this as a personal attack by any means, I am just astonished by the sheer amount of blatently wrong information that is floating around of this forum. I just couldn't hold it in anymore...

I guess all I have to say is that the internet is solid proof of the importance of a higher education...

[dazygyrl]

thank you for sharing your years of education. I really enjoy reading your posts.

I am wondering tho, why is it when I was strict low carb for at least 2 years, did I merely maintained, losing only a little and even gaining towards the end of my strict lc time? I maintained 50 carbs or less.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by Katastic

I'm sorry, I did not mean this as a personal attack by any means, I am just astonished by the sheer amount of blatently wrong information that is floating around of this forum. I just couldn't hold it in anymore...

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Google information on BCAA in obesity, and you will find a certain amount of the population converts excess protein into sugar rather readily, and for these people (AKA, me) this leads to higher insulin levels and ... gaining weight on a 1200 calorie diet. Dropping the protein worked for me, whether you find the information wrong or not. I have been solidly losing a pound or so a week since I dropped my protein levels from about 80-90 a day to 40-50. I was gaining, and not knowing why, from March until June.

The information and studies are not very old so perhaps you are out of date from your biochemistry texts.

This is an extremely open thread, and you will find we will support anyone on whatever WOE they choose, backed up by science or not. After all, science still says for the most part that we should eat 60% of our meals as carbs, and eat lowfat dairy products while dieting.

[nola baxter]

Originally Posted by dazygyrl

thank you for sharing your years of education. I really enjoy reading your posts.

I am wondering tho, why is it when I was strict low carb for at least 2 years, did I merely maintained, losing only a little and even gaining towards the end of my strict lc time? I maintained 50 carbs or less.

Strict low-carb did not work for weight loss for me either.

There was no metabolic advantage, and no appetite suppression.

I am better off on a mixed diet- which has better satiety for amount of calories consumed-
for me!

[julieboolie]

Originally Posted by Katastic

WHOA WHOA WHOA....lol. Okay I am not exaggerating here in the slightest when I say that I have taken 3 years of biochemistry, 2 semesters of genetics, 4 years of calculus/differential equations, and 1.5 years of physics (I am a student studying biochemistry and molecular biology...will soon be moving towards genetic engineering) and from my professional academic experience what you are saying makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

Your body converts EVERYTHING you eat into glucose be it fat, protein, or sugar. EVERYTHING you eat must be broken down into glucose before it can enter the citric acid cycle via respiration in the form of acetylCoA - it makes no difference if it has gone through glycolysis or glucognogensis.

It may seem to make since that eating more fat 'induces' ketosis, but that is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. The human body can only absorb a finite amount of fat and protein within a certain amount of time, the rest is excreted in the urine. More ketones may be present within the urine, but IT'S FROM THE FAT YOU'RE EATING not the fat you have stored in your body.

With that being said, eating high amounts of fat is an EXCELLENT way to lose weight. A ketogenic diet has been used by people suffering from epilepsy for centuries and it's clinical benefits (not just for weight-loss) are astonishing. However, it's mechanism is not effected by protein intake - even it's suggestion is absolutely absurd from a biochemical standpoint.

The reason that you lose weight while eating a very high fat diet is because of the metabolic limit of protein and fat absorption. You would be suprised how little fat and protein the human body can absorb compared to carbohydrates (we can continuously consume these sugars because they are immediately stored away by insulin when our blood sugar gets to high) which is why you gain weight from carbohydrates and not from fat or protein (the pancreas does not secrete insulin after you eat fat and protein). However, once you have met this metabolic limit for fat absorbtion you experience an overwhelming feeling of being full simultaneously as ketone bodies saturate your blood stream.

In other words, you lose weight eating high fat because your body can only absorb a fraction of the calories you are giving it and you will eat less simply because of how full you feel.

"Some of us have been tossing around the theory..." My dear, what you are tossing around is not a 'theory', it is the well studied physical and medical phenomena of the human metabolism that you are barely scratching the surface of being able to understand.

"Tossing around a theory" is exactly how these nut-jobs come up with wacky, home-brewed, lose 10 pounds in 2 hours, diets.

Please for all of our sakes, do not try and devise a new method of eating based upon some tidbits you learned about glucogneogensis from Wikipedia. There are many people who have dedicated their lives to the study of the human metabolism (not from the internet) and they all come down to the same conclusions:

1.) carbohydrates stimulate the release of insulin from the pancreas whose method of action is to store away glucose in the form of fatty acids.

2.) in a body that is deprived of carbohydrates the body resorts to using fatty acids as its main form of energy.

3.) whether the body creates ATP via glycolysis or glucogneogensis does not matter, the composition of one's body is determined by the amount of energy going in, the amount of energy going out, the concentration of insulin, and the status of one's metabolism (I.e. devoid any functional abnormalities such as hypothepyroidism or Cushings syndrome).

If you think the great minds of the world who have dedicated their lives to studying this have a weight-loss secret that they are holding out on you in curiosity of your ability to figure it out on your own, you are wrong.

I'm sorry, I did not mean this as a personal attack by any means, I am just astonished by the sheer amount of blatently wrong information that is floating around of this forum. I just couldn't hold it in anymore...

I guess all I have to say is that the internet is solid proof of the importance of a higher education...

Although, as you do mention, when there is a thyroid or hormonal imbalance, the metabolism is the component that has great impact. How each individual body responds to that insulin is where Atkins comes in, I believe. I sympathize with you where some "theories" are concerned that fly in the face of how our bodies actually function. But will disagree w. you on a few points.

1. Taking everything you read in text books as gospel truth : What you'll also see in your text books, as Paula states, is that a low fat high carbohydrate diet is still taught as "ideal" or "recommended". That is a provenly false plan, and I'm living proof. Most of American is living proof of the erroneous assumption that carbs are better for your body than fats. The Scientific community will NOT rescind or change their views on nutrition. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Don't even get me started on the level of faith it takes to believe evolution is how our world began... A great deal of missing links requiring leaps of faith.
What was taught as "theories" in my day, have over time become "laws" which, when you look at what the definition of "scientific laws" are (repeatable, provable etc) is ridiculous!!

2. That our bodies all operate the same way. The metabolism is a very complicated and delicate system. The biological claim that calories in = calories out simply is not enough. The insulin, hormone, and thyroid/hypothalmus etc. all play a HUGE role in our metabollic function as well as our health and weight.

I hold my BS in Biological sciences and have worked for 10 years in the Food and Pharmaceutical, and Clinical Drug Trial industries, as both a Chemist and Technical Manager. I've spent years researching and learning beyond my academic education. More studies need to be done, and done well (eliminating more variables so as to prove causal effect and not simply correlations being treated as results). There simply isn't research into health and weight loss, unless there is some angle that can be manipulated to make money. It's easier to allow the problem to continue and make $ on the "treatments and cures" to a problem that is entirely preventable.

Hope that didn't come accross as hostile to either side. I kinda' agree w. both schools of thought here. What I love about LCF's is that we're free to share, learn, fail and try again together. Respecting each other, supporting each other, and occasionally challenging each other are all part of why this board is so great!

[nola baxter]

Well , if science could be equally applied to all of us- we would all have the same results!

I tried similar to Paula, strictly limiting protein with low carbs and high fat, and I did not lose weight-
moreover, I was hungrier than ever, perpetually unsatisfied, and my strength in the gym crashed.

There has actually been a lot of positive science around low-carb lately;
but it doesnt change the fact that for me, experientially,
it has seemed to be more dis-advantageous than advantageous,
and has not rendered the promised rewards.

So in the end, as much as I wanted low-carb to work for me, and be my magic miracle- it wasnt!

In the end- I think it is a lot about our body's personal response to something.
And science is a very abstract study of these things, at best.

[julieboolie]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Lynne -- thank you so much for the lovely words -- I totally needed that today! Sometimes, blessings come in disguise, and they are hard to see when we are in the thick of them... but I try to find the positive in most of my challenges.

Julie, thank you for the long, thoughtful reply!

Can you say what it was, in weight loss apocalypse, that convinced you that the low calories weren't the problem for you? I'm very interested to know your views on that.

I think, for me, the low calories *were* a big part of the problem. My first round was protocol, and I ran it just a few days past the maximum round (I think it was 44 days) -- I was cold and depleted, and quite weak, by the end of it.

I wasn't working out for a good deal of the round, but even my regular life was starting to be pretty taxing by the end of it. Each round I've done since then -- protocol or rogue -- has gotten harder, and the rebound gains have been faster each time. Also, each time, I have shown the classic signs of metabolic slow down -- being cold, weak, lethargic, etc. I don't think the hcg (or hhcg) protected me from starvation mode, even the first time, when I did it all by the books.

I don't suspect I'll be doing another round of hcg -- rogue or no. I think I need to fix my system, and then lean out very slowly and sanely, preserving my muscle mass and metabolism in the process. I am too much an athlete to be monkeying around with any plan that requires me to stop working out.

I also don't want to lock myself into a life where I gain if I exceed 1000 calories, and can't lose to save my life ... no thank you on that one!

So, refeeding it is -- my weight is remarkably stable at the moment, and I plan to take advantage of that now, with muscle building, and metabolic repairing.

I will want to lean down again, but I need to fix the damage first, I think.

I so get this!! I was here a few months ago. I'm so happy, can not adequately tell you HOW happy, I am to read your post here. To hear you wanting to heal your metabolism, eat more and well, and worry about losing weight later. That's HUGE for you!! Keep going with that. I'll go see if I can find part of WLA for you. I think there's a UTube video too. It's mostly about Leptin and how it works, levels and fat storage, and calories. I can't do it justice from memory, but it convinced me, a big skeptic, to do it again. After my metabolism was healed, and only for 3 weeks.

One thing I will believe, and this is from both experience, gut, and some research. Your first round was just plain too long. The homeopathic is NOT the real hormone. It "tricks" your body into thinking it's getting the real thing, it's likely not as effective as the Rx, especially over time. Our body likely "figures it out" sooner. Short rounds are better on SOOOO many levels.

You were just out of energy past that 3 week mark. Your body was telling you, pleading with you, to feed it . When you overrode that signal, and kept derpriving it, you went into some type or starvation or self protection mode. When you went back to that starvation phase, repeatedly, over the next 6 months, while messing w. the protocol (particularly the fat level, which I'm still working on figuring out why), continued the damage . I'm sad that all that sacrifice, dedication and self control didnt' get you where you wanted to be . I'm really glad you're eating well, trying to rest and researching. Making peace w. your weight, for now, is good on so many levels!!

Let me see what I can find .

[manders]

Originally Posted by paulabob

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Google information on BCAA in obesity, and you will find a certain amount of the population converts excess protein into sugar rather readily, and for these people (AKA, me) this leads to higher insulin levels and ... gaining weight on a 1200 calorie diet. Dropping the protein worked for me, whether you find the information wrong or not. I have been solidly losing a pound or so a week since I dropped my protein levels from about 80-90 a day to 40-50. I was gaining, and not knowing why, from March until June.

The information and studies are not very old so perhaps you are out of date from your biochemistry texts.

This is an extremely open thread, and you will find we will support anyone on whatever WOE they choose, backed up by science or not. After all, science still says for the most part that we should eat 60% of our meals as carbs, and eat lowfat dairy products while dieting.

do you find yourself getting very hungry a lot only having 40-50 grams of protein each day?

[RileyWorm]

Check out the EFGT thread for more info. Over there I've discovered that the average amount of protein grams they eat is 60-80. But they eat LOTS of fat so I doubt they are very hungry.

[Crazy PreK Teacher]

Originally Posted by julieboolie

Although, as you do mention, when there is a thyroid or hormonal imbalance, the metabolism is the component that has great impact. How each individual body responds to that insulin is where Atkins comes in, I believe. I sympathize with you where some "theories" are concerned that fly in the face of how our bodies actually function. But will disagree w. you on a few points.

1. Taking everything you read in text books as gospel truth : What you'll also see in your text books, as Paula states, is that a low fat high carbohydrate diet is still taught as "ideal" or "recommended". That is a provenly false plan, and I'm living proof. Most of American is living proof of the erroneous assumption that carbs are better for your body than fats. The Scientific community will NOT rescind or change their views on nutrition. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Don't even get me started on the level of faith it takes to believe evolution is how our world began... A great deal of missing links requiring leaps of faith.
What was taught as "theories" in my day, have over time become "laws" which, when you look at what the definition of "scientific laws" are (repeatable, provable etc) is ridiculous!!

2. That our bodies all operate the same way. The metabolism is a very complicated and delicate system. The biological claim that calories in = calories out simply is not enough. The insulin, hormone, and thyroid/hypothalmus etc. all play a HUGE role in our metabollic function as well as our health and weight.

I hold my BS in Biological sciences and have worked for 10 years in the Food and Pharmaceutical, and Clinical Drug Trial industries, as both a Chemist and Technical Manager. I've spent years researching and learning beyond my academic education. More studies need to be done, and done well (eliminating more variables so as to prove causal effect and not simply correlations being treated as results). There simply isn't research into health and weight loss, unless there is some angle that can be manipulated to make money. It's easier to allow the problem to continue and make $ on the "treatments and cures" to a problem that is entirely preventable.

Hope that didn't come accross as hostile to either side. I kinda' agree w. both schools of thought here. What I love about LCF's is that we're free to share, learn, fail and try again together. Respecting each other, supporting each other, and occasionally challenging each other are all part of why this board is so great!

I find it AMAZING that everyone can be sooooo different. For instance...my mom & I...I am tired & sluggish and gain on low calorie diets laden with carbs...(i.e. WW), and feel great on high protein low-carb and lose well on it if I'm diligent. My mom on the other hand...is very sluggish (even needing sleep in afternoons) on high protein low-carb plans and does not lose...but she can lose 1-2 lbs. a week on WW or low calorie...go figure...same family genes???

While I am on HCG...I tend to stall if I eat ANYTHING rogue on HCG...even if it is low-carb, I suspect cottage cheese tends to stall me...but not 100% sure...and I love cottage cheese

While mom is on HCG...she basically has been doing WW's...and she loses 2-3 lbs. a week...wish I could do this.

Her


Katastic's experiences on HCG & low-carb definitely intrigues me, but I know for a fact that eating that many carbs...my body would rebel...w/ or w/o the HCG. Oh, how I wish I could eat like she does...that would be marvelous. Perhaps one day, scientists will get all of us figured out

On the other hand...I have learned a new WOE...clean eating!!!! I used to be a "chemical" low-carb dieter. EVERYTHING...was chemical...Atkins bars, pancake mixes, Carbquik, SF candy, Crystal Light, etc. I hardly ate anything natural...I did eat chicken, steak, tuna, veggies, dressings, etc....but still too much "frankenfoods" on a daily basis. I guess I was trying to be "normal" on a low-carb diet...so I made lots of goodies I will return to LC WOE...but mostly clean...very few chemicals.

As far as her eating plan...I do not agree with it. I am waiting to see if she has other menu plans, as I know she may be very, very busy...and grabbing fast, convenient food cannot be helped at times. Almost EVERYTHING (honey roasted peanuts are not...just full of sugar) is a chemical...albeit, it is a yummy variety, but just not healthy IMO. And I guess that is what kinda surprises me and makes me wonder...having that kind of knowledge and still eating all the chemicals?? I know the time on the plan is short (even if she doesn't eat this way after HCG)...not long-term...but I think what you put in affects you way down the road. Like I said, I ate this chemical stuff a lot...but I still did not eat it almost every meal & snack. I think it led me to be so carb-phobic/sensitive.

You know...when I meet my Maker...I'm gonna ask him, "Lord, why didn't you create me with an automatically fast metabolism so I can eat & not gain??!!" LOL I know His answer already..."Child, you are divinely created...you are exactly as I have made you."

[julieboolie]

Originally Posted by Crazy PreK Teacher

Katastic's experiences on HCG & low-carb definitely intrigues me, but I know for a fact that eating that many carbs...my body would rebel...w/ or w/o the HCG. Oh, how I wish I could eat like she does...that would be marvelous. Perhaps one day, scientists will get all of us figured out

On the other hand...I have learned a new WOE...clean eating!!!! I used to be a "chemical" low-carb dieter. EVERYTHING...was chemical...Atkins bars, pancake mixes, Carbquik, SF candy, Crystal Light, etc. I hardly ate anything natural...I did eat chicken, steak, tuna, veggies, dressings, etc....but still too much "frankenfoods" on a daily basis. I guess I was trying to be "normal" on a low-carb diet...so I made lots of goodies I will return to LC WOE...but mostly clean...very few chemicals.

As far as her eating plan...I do not agree with it. I am waiting to see if she has other menu plans, as I know she may be very, very busy...and grabbing fast, convenient food cannot be helped at times. Almost EVERYTHING (honey roasted peanuts are not...just full of sugar) is a chemical...albeit, it is a yummy variety, but just not healthy IMO. And I guess that is what kinda surprises me and makes me wonder...having that kind of knowledge and still eating all the chemicals?? I know the time on the plan is short (even if she doesn't eat this way after HCG)...not long-term...but I think what you put in affects you way down the road. Like I said, I ate this chemical stuff a lot...but I still did not eat it almost every meal & snack. I think it led me to be so carb-phobic/sensitive.

You know...when I meet my Maker...I'm gonna ask him, "Lord, why didn't you create me with an automatically fast metabolism so I can eat & not gain??!!" LOL I know His answer already..."Child, you are divinely created...you are exactly as I have made you."

I look at it as my "thorn" like Paul had! And I agree 100% about the Frankenfoods!! I came to that same conclusion and encourage others down that path too. All the creative recipes, even CO being pushed, do not help me at all!! It sad, b/c I wish I could find substitutes, but whole, real food, as UNprocessed as possible is best. All the way around!!