Weight-Loss Apocalypse

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by shelbyla

I should finish the book tonight and I would also like to watch the video for context but the only cautions she has so far (p116) are related to consequences of the hCG/leptin/fat storage loop if people do NOT follow the protocol. i.e. If you "cheat"--and I don't know what that means in her terms yet--you risk not only short-term gains in scale weight but a complete disruption of the loop which can cause damage to your thyroid and creation of more or magnification of existing fat cells that are uniquely resistant to weight loss.

Stay tuned...

What I got from the little bit I have read is that she follows protocol to a "T". She is unwavering from Dr Simeons' food list and what to do with those foods. So I know that a "cheat" in her eyes would be using turkey, broccoli or anything that is NOT on that food list like butter or any oils. That is what I got out of what I read so far. But I have the right to change that belief/statement as I am not done reading it yet.

[sunday]

Originally Posted by dawnyama

What I got from the little bit I have read is that she follows protocol to a "T". She is unwavering from Dr Simeons' food list and what to do with those foods. So I know that a "cheat" in her eyes would be using turkey, broccoli or anything that is NOT on that food list like butter or any oils. That is what I got out of what I read so far. But I have the right to change that belief/statement as I am not done reading it yet.

Yes, I agree about Robin following the food list to a "T", but not the Simeon's protocol as written. I have read the book and have watched most of her Youtube. I began initially watching her Vlogs out of curiosity because I have been off protocol and struggling with maintenance for the last couple of years. It wasn't long before I was fascinated and fixated on her approach and experience specifically in weight loss and emotional eating, (hcg or non-hcg'ers) can all benefit from her vlogs. However, she states clearly several times that she follows the diet plan VLC (500 cals) no fat, sugar, or starch, but insists Simeon's P3 correction days and even weighing to prevent the 2 lbs above LDW as being detrimental. She really emphasizes the hunger scale as your meter in lieu of "weighing" and believes that "Steak Days" are only encouraging the binge issues that we had prior to trying protocol.

I believe she is spot on with the hunger scale. I have been JUDDDing and most definitely can see where we are encouraging ourselves to binge instead of listening to our hunger "leptin" when eating.

[Dreamchaser]

Originally Posted by Gilded Lily

Ah, excellent info. Thank you! Also, am I remembering right in that she is not a fan of correction days? Sorry for all the questions... it's so interesting to me! I will get the book!

Dawn, we all love you girl.

Hi Brenda! You are right. She is not a fan of correction days. She said something about it on one of her videos. I can't remember exactly but it was something about how it's no wonder that some people develop eating disorders from the hcg diet with all of the correction days and excessive weighing.

[Dreamchaser]

I also agree that she sticks to Simeon's food list but doesn't approve of the weighing and correction days. She also doesn't have any problems with mixing veggies as long as you are not mixing them to eat more than you should be eating according to your hunger.

Mixing vegetables on the very low calorie protocol - YouTube

[Kiley2801]

So it seems she advocates P2 without daily weighing, is that correct Dreamchaser?

[shelbyla]

Ok, so I finished the book last night and watched the rest of the first video this morning and all I can say (again) is WOW! I can honestly say that this book is great from a couple of perspectives.

First, for those of us who struggle with keeping the weight off, it provides a really clear key to understanding how to reverse this. The hunger scale has been mentioned earlier but in a nutshell, 1 = starvation and 10 = ate so much you feel sick or it hurts. The object is when you are between a 3 (ready to eat NOW) and a 4 (getting hungry but could wait a bit) to eat as much AND ONLY AS MUCH as it takes to raise that level to between a 5 (neutral--neither hungry nor full) and a 6 (satisfied but not full). The key here being eating ONLY when the hunger signal is present—not because you are socially obligated, or you are bored, or you have the munchies, or you are stressed or depressed. As most of us know, that is WAAAY easier said than done and this is where the psychoanalysis piece of the book comes in.

Second, for those medical geeks, like me, it details some really compelling science behind a lot of questions that anyone who struggles with their weight has asked over time. Why can we exercise and diet and not lose weight, even operating at extreme calorie deficits? Why can obese people eat much less food and remain fat or even gain MORE fat? Why is fat regained so much harder to lose? Why do we put on weight so quickly if we “cheat” on hCG? Why is it so hard to recover from cheating (why do we cheat more in days afterwards)? Why is exercise not recommended on the hCG protocol? Why is it important to load? Why is it important to not take too MUCH hCG? How important is P3 and what happens if you cheat in P3? For our purposes here, it updates Simeons’ science about why hCG helps unlock those fat stores. Again in a nutshell—and please forgive any misinterpretations…

1. The hormone Leptin controls hunger/satiation signals. The more Leptin released, the less hungry you are.
2. Leptin release is triggered by hCG which is why you are not hungry on the protocol.
3. Stored body fat is burned as a result of the 500 calorie diet

There is more science around why stored bodyfat is used as fuel instead of the more bioavailable body protein/muscle but it’s very technical so I’ll leave it out here. While the book does not provide conclusive evidence of the effectiveness of hCG, the science within HAS been the focus of extensive research (independent of the author) and has double-blind studies backing it up, cited in the appendix of the book. The “new science” starts in chapter 15, with chapter 16 providing a slightly more user-friendly explaination. The author also details the results of a small personal study, which are very interesting on a whole-health basis (not just bodyfat but blood pressure, heart rates, endurance and about 10 other measures).

A couple of other key take-aways for me…
1. Intense or weight-bearing exercise during the protocol should be minimized simply because it upsets the energy balance in the body.
2. Cheating on the protocol can have far reaching consequences including thyroid and metabolism down-regulation (someone asked earlier about this—bad side-effects of hCG on thyroid/metabolism only occur if there are deviations from the protocol).
3. People with less bodyfat will be less impacted if they deviate from protocol.
4. It is very important to ease into P3, following hunger signals, NOT eating to BMRx, and introducing foods slowly.

Hopefully this is somewhat helpful.

[cocoapeanut]

Your analysis looks good to me, Shelby!

The P3 takeaway was big for me - a lot of people seem to try really hard to stuff themselves and get to their BMR, and I was hoping to not do that and just eat however much I felt like, whether it was my BMR or not. Which is what Robin seems to advocate. And if I lose more, then I lose more. I dunno. I'll probably try that out

[amylou]

Thanks for that video Dream! I've been perplexed about the mixing veggies thing!

Good analysis Shelby! I'm still in the middle of the book and it's so interesting!

[Dreamchaser]

Originally Posted by Kiley2801

So it seems she advocates P2 without daily weighing, is that correct Dreamchaser?

Yes, that's true. I am working on that. I am on P2 right now and I've switched to only weighing once a week and it is working out great for me. So much less stress!

[Dreamchaser]

Thanks Shelby. Great evaluation!

[shelbyla]

I will say that for those of you who really like to know the "why's", this is probably the best $10 I've spent in a LONG time.

[sunday]

Originally Posted by shelbyla

I will say that for those of you who really like to know the "why's", this is probably the best $10 I've spent in a LONG time.

I agree! I am coaching my BFF who is doing her first round of Hcg and I have to admit that after reading the book, I wish I had known all of this the first time around. I may have not struggled so much in maintenance.

shelbyla, if you love the book, you should watch her vlogs because it really brings it all together as to why the "hunger scale" is very important in P3 and then maintenance. I can't understand for the life of me, why I have taken so long to start paying attention to hunger pangs.

[shelbyla]

Originally Posted by dawnyama

What I got from the little bit I have read is that she follows protocol to a "T". She is unwavering from Dr Simeons' food list and what to do with those foods. So I know that a "cheat" in her eyes would be using turkey, broccoli or anything that is NOT on that food list like butter or any oils. That is what I got out of what I read so far. But I have the right to change that belief/statement as I am not done reading it yet.

Originally Posted by Dreamchaser

I also agree that she sticks to Simeon's food list but doesn't approve of the weighing and correction days. She also doesn't have any problems with mixing veggies as long as you are not mixing them to eat more than you should be eating according to your hunger.

Mixing vegetables on the very low calorie protocol - YouTube

It's interesting that in the book she specifically states that you should NOT deviate from Simeons' food list or quantities then 1 page later, she turns around and posts an "Example VLCP Daily Log" that includes water packed tuna (specifically NOT on Simeons' list) and 3 servings of mixed veggies (both quantity and mixing NOT OP). Something that I hope she clarifies in future additions of the book.

I think her clarifications may be in some of her vlogs. Thanks for the new link, Dream. I'll check it out tomorrow.

[Kiley2801]

Originally Posted by Dreamchaser

Yes, that's true. I am working on that. I am on P2 right now and I've switched to only weighing once a week and it is working out great for me. So much less stress!

Awesome!

I just downloaded this to my Kindle for Iphone - can't wait to read it!

I actually sorta followed this principle on my first, and most successful, round. I weighed once before loading, once at the 3 week mark, and then once at the end. (now, I did start weighing more frequently in P3 though).

But overall, I think it made for a more stress-free round, and didn't get all freaked out about the daily fluctuations that are likely going to happen anyway!

[Dreamchaser]

Originally Posted by Kiley2801

Awesome!

I just downloaded this to my Kindle for Iphone - can't wait to read it!

I actually sorta followed this principle on my first, and most successful, round. I weighed once before loading, once at the 3 week mark, and then once at the end. (now, I did start weighing more frequently in P3 though).

But overall, I think it made for a more stress-free round, and didn't get all freaked out about the daily fluctuations that are likely going to happen anyway!

Wow, that's great Kiley!

[Dreamchaser]

Originally Posted by shelbyla

It's interesting that in the book she specifically states that you should NOT deviate from Simeons' food list or quantities then 1 page later, she turns around and posts an "Example VLCP Daily Log" that includes water packed tuna (specifically NOT on Simeons' list) and 3 servings of mixed veggies (both quantity and mixing NOT OP). Something that I hope she clarifies in future additions of the book.

I think her clarifications may be in some of her vlogs. Thanks for the new link, Dream. I'll check it out tomorrow.

I was really surprised when I saw that example in the book too, with the veggies and the tuna!

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by shelbyla

It's interesting that in the book she specifically states that you should NOT deviate from Simeons' food list or quantities then 1 page later, she turns around and posts an "Example VLCP Daily Log" that includes water packed tuna (specifically NOT on Simeons' list) and 3 servings of mixed veggies (both quantity and mixing NOT OP). Something that I hope she clarifies in future additions of the book.

I think her clarifications may be in some of her vlogs. Thanks for the new link, Dream. I'll check it out tomorrow.

Like I said, I didn't get that far in the book, but concluded from her earlier statement that she follows protocol 100%. I guess she is unclear in what Dr S's original protocol is If that is confusing for her, then think of us poor hcgers that have no experience like her. Confusing and conflicting to say the least

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by Dreamchaser

I was really surprised when I saw that example in the book too, with the veggies and the tuna!

Why oh why is it so complicated?????!!!!

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by sunday

I agree! I am coaching my BFF who is doing her first round of Hcg and I have to admit that after reading the book, I wish I had known all of this the first time around. I may have not struggled so much in maintenance.

shelbyla, if you love the book, you should watch her vlogs because it really brings it all together as to why the "hunger scale" is very important in P3 and then maintenance. I can't understand for the life of me, why I have taken so long to start paying attention to hunger pangs.

I think my hunger scale got broken But my first round, went beautifully. I feel like I was eating just enough--I never counted a calorie and stabilized perfectly....until I went out to eat. That is it for me. I guess that Robin is right--if you want to maintain then you will have to eat less when you get together with friends or family or gatherings. Should be interesting this weekend being Memorial Day and all. And with my 2 littlest ones graduating. I will not be endulging because I am in P2, however if I were in P3 P2 is sometimes a safely net for those times, making it easier to say no. More willpower, yanno?

[Dreamchaser]

Originally Posted by dawnyama

I think my hunger scale got broken But my first round, went beautifully. I feel like I was eating just enough--I never counted a calorie and stabilized perfectly....until I went out to eat. That is it for me. I guess that Robin is right--if you want to maintain then you will have to eat less when you get together with friends or family or gatherings. Should be interesting this weekend being Memorial Day and all. And with my 2 littlest ones graduating. I will not be endulging because I am in P2, however if I were in P3 P2 is sometimes a safely net for those times, making it easier to say no. More willpower, yanno?

It's all about the hunger. When you get together with people for social gatherings, if you are eating past the point when you are no longer hungry, then, yes, you would definitely have to eat less to maintain.

It's a whole different mindset and way of life to get used to for sure!

[hostamomma]

Have to check out this book! Glad it's available on Nook!

[minimonkey]

I am going to try to be very mindful of hunger when transitioning to p3 this time... eat only to the point of feeling 'not hungry', and then stop. I really hope that helps -- I can have a pretty big appetite when I am working out hard.... and I may need to learn to live with a certain amount of daily hunger if I want to maintain the level of leanness I desire. If that is the case, then so be it....

[dawnyama]

My DH does this instinctively. In fact the Japanese have a word for it. I will have to ask DH what that is. But he never stuffs his face like us in the USA do. He is always commenting on how we Americans eat too much. I see that is why in the 20 years I have known him he has the same size jeans!!! Seriously, he has not gone up or down even an inch, very much unlike like me.

[ColleenMA66]

My son does this as well. He's 16 and thin. I took him to the Country Buffet a few weeks ago and my mother and I were stuffing our faces because after all we were at an all you can eat buffet!

My son had a few things and he was done. I asked him if he wanted more of this or that and he said ...no I'm full. I was dumfounded because he loves this place. He said he ate what he wanted and he's full why would he want more? Umm..cause it's all you can eat? He said he doesn't want to make himself sick and he had enough....so...no...he didn't want more.

Of course I said to my mother....this is why we are fat and he's not. I was joking around but seriously....that is why.

I'm trying to work with this hunger scale thing and I actually am finding it very helpful but also frustrating. I'm not hungry physically but I'm not full emotionally so I want to continue to eat. I need to watch more of her videos because I think I saw one that has something to do with attaching emotions to food.

I also wish she were closer cause I'd be so going to that clinic!

[sunday]

Originally Posted by dawnyama

I think my hunger scale got broken But my first round, went beautifully. I feel like I was eating just enough--I never counted a calorie and stabilized perfectly....until I went out to eat. That is it for me. I guess that Robin is right--if you want to maintain then you will have to eat less when you get together with friends or family or gatherings. Should be interesting this weekend being Memorial Day and all. And with my 2 littlest ones graduating. I will not be endulging because I am in P2, however if I were in P3 P2 is sometimes a safely net for those times, making it easier to say no. More willpower, yanno?

Dawn, I have always believed I was broken or that somehow my hypothalmus never reset? Then I witnessed my fellow protocol friends who lost as well or better than I and realized that they went through the exact same rebound.

When I did the protocol, I concentrated so much on what I could eat (restrictions) and eliminating all sugar that I never paid attention to satiety. I knew I was not "feeling" hunger on P2 and for that I was thrilled, but felt bored/restless with my food choices. Then on P3, I thought because I was taught this that I needed to eat to BMR or I would confuse the hypo??? So, what did I do? I ate and enjoyed the abundance. I stabilized for about a year, but after gaining 10 lbs on a cruise and family reunion, slipping down the slippery slope. I am wondering if I used the protocol one last time and did it with WLA lessons in mind, if I could lose the rest of my weight re-gained? I can now see that P3 would be completely different in this manner and certainly less anxiety. I am certainly going to re-think this.

[shelbyla]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

I am going to try to be very mindful of hunger when transitioning to p3 this time... eat only to the point of feeling 'not hungry', and then stop. I really hope that helps -- I can have a pretty big appetite when I am working out hard.... and I may need to learn to live with a certain amount of daily hunger if I want to maintain the level of leanness I desire. If that is the case, then so be it....

Mini - reading her book, I'm not sure that "living with a certain amount of hunger" is wise, given the science. If it is true physical hunger, as opposed to "head-hunger," then we SHOULD be eating to satiety for many physical reasons, not the least of which is that the hunger mechanism is truly signaling a transition away from using stored body-fat for fuel and thus a down-regulation of both metabolism and thyroid. Particularly for someone who works out as hard as you do, the hunger signal is pretty fine tuned. If you'd like me to send you some of the science, let me know. It's really fascinating.

Originally Posted by sunday

Then on P3, I thought because I was taught this that I needed to eat to BMR or I would confuse the hypo??? So, what did I do? I ate and enjoyed the abundance. I stabilized for about a year, but after gaining 10 lbs on a cruise and family reunion, slipping down the slippery slope. I am wondering if I used the protocol one last time and did it with WLA lessons in mind, if I could lose the rest of my weight re-gained? I can now see that P3 would be completely different in this manner and certainly less anxiety. I am certainly going to re-think this.

Well, as I am entering P3 next week, I will be your guinea pig. I am actually going to combine eating to BMRx AND the WLA principles, as I have never had an issue eating up to BMRx and feeling too full afterwards. I'll be keeping it right around 2000 calories and monitoring hunger closely. And my weight. TO ME, it's important that I keep an eye on the weight to make sure that my little experiment isn't backfiring on me.

[shelbyla]

Originally Posted by ColleenMA66

I'm trying to work with this hunger scale thing and I actually am finding it very helpful but also frustrating. I'm not hungry physically but I'm not full emotionally so I want to continue to eat. I need to watch more of her videos because I think I saw one that has something to do with attaching emotions to food.

I also wish she were closer cause I'd be so going to that clinic!

Her whole premise is based around attaching emotions to food. Her scientific hypothesis is based on hormone regulation and body processes but her "cure," if you will, has completely to do with recognizing and overcoming those emotions.

Ditto on the clinic!

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by ColleenMA66

My son does this as well. He's 16 and thin. I took him to the Country Buffet a few weeks ago and my mother and I were stuffing our faces because after all we were at an all you can eat buffet!

My son had a few things and he was done. I asked him if he wanted more of this or that and he said ...no I'm full. I was dumfounded because he loves this place. He said he ate what he wanted and he's full why would he want more? Umm..cause it's all you can eat? He said he doesn't want to make himself sick and he had enough....so...no...he didn't want more.

Of course I said to my mother....this is why we are fat and he's not. I was joking around but seriously....that is why.

I'm trying to work with this hunger scale thing and I actually am finding it very helpful but also frustrating. I'm not hungry physically but I'm not full emotionally so I want to continue to eat. I need to watch more of her videos because I think I saw one that has something to do with attaching emotions to food.

I also wish she were closer cause I'd be so going to that clinic!

My son will eat a doughnut (that knucklehead ) and leave a bite on his plate. I am like "why did you not finish that doughnut?". He says "I am too full". I say "but it is only A BITE!!! Please finish it!!!" And into the trash it goes. I cannot believe that he does this, but it HAS to be why he is bone skinny. He literally has his bones sticking out of him and you cannot find an ounce of fat to pinch on him at all. I can hardly believe he came from me He is so much more like his dad than me on his body shape/type. BUT the point---he eats like I should be eating. If I am not hungry for it, why eat it???? Something to ponder. I sometimes eat just because food is there. I am so into the "if I see it I will eat/want it". So I have gone to putting a bunch of stuff (mostly the kids food) away....especially while on P2. The whole out of sight out of mind works for me.....most of the time!

I would so be going to her clinic too. I could use help like that!

[sunday]

Originally Posted by shelbyla

Mini - reading her book, I'm not sure that "living with a certain amount of hunger" is wise, given the science. If it is true physical hunger, as opposed to "head-hunger," then we SHOULD be eating to satiety for many physical reasons, not the least of which is that the hunger mechanism is truly signaling a transition away from using stored body-fat for fuel and thus a down-regulation of both metabolism and thyroid. Particularly for someone who works out as hard as you do, the hunger signal is pretty fine tuned. If you'd like me to send you some of the science, let me know. It's really fascinating.


Well, as I am entering P3 next week, I will be your guinea pig. I am actually going to combine eating to BMRx AND the WLA principles, as I have never had an issue eating up to BMRx and feeling too full afterwards. I'll be keeping it right around 2000 calories and monitoring hunger closely. And my weight. TO ME, it's important that I keep an eye on the weight to make sure that my little experiment isn't backfiring on me.

Congrats on your success! I am anxious to hear how this is going. 2000 calories is great! On JUDDD my UD is 1700.

On the hunger scale, wouldn't you have to allow hunger on P2? The reason I ask, is that you can not go over the 500 cals and if you ate when you were hungry, that would defeat the weight loss. I remember that some days were a "beast" on the no fat vlc.

[shelbyla]

Originally Posted by sunday

Congrats on your success! I am anxious to hear how this is going. 2000 calories is great! On JUDDD my UD is 1700.

On the hunger scale, wouldn't you have to allow hunger on P2? The reason I ask, is that you can not go over the 500 cals and if you ate when you were hungry, that would defeat the weight loss. I remember that some days were a "beast" on the no fat vlc.

Thanks. I am a big girl (although about 33% less than I was! ) and I exercise a lot so my maintenance calories are pretty high. Theoretically, if your dosage is right on P2, you shouldn't be hungry. If you were hungry, your dose was off or the hcg wasn't working right. I am usually hungry on P2 only around meal times. I have my days where emotional or head hunger gets me but it really isn't true hunger.