The "10 Pounds Left" Phenomenon

[porkfatrules]

The part I wonder about is the fat intake -- I completely get why eating a slightly higher caloric level could, theoretically, still work on HCG. And, adding protein and carbs makes sense if you want to do that. But, if you have a stream of fat coming in through food, why would your HCG then mobilize fat from your fat stores? That's the part I don't get.

If that's working for people, then what's the mechanism HCG uses? There's still the caloric difference, and HCG may be supporting fat loss by sparing muscle burning (I know, Metqa, I'm just theorizing here) or by minimizing the decrease in metabolism that goes with calorie restriction. Other than that, I can't explain the difference in fat burning --

[shelbyla]

So just another bit of musing from me... (and I'm putting my flame suit on even though I know all you ladies and gents can handle respectful debates as well as anyone...)

One thing that I think MAY IN SOME CASES contribute to slow or minimal losses in later rounds is that we get to a place where we are relatively comfortable with our bodies and we've done a few rounds so we think "This round I'm going to <insert some sort of non-protocol thing here>." Maybe it's mixing veggies. Maybe it's eating fat. Maybe it's having cream in coffee. Maybe it's adding extra protein or increasing calories or doing 500 on weekdays only. I think it's easier to deviate from protocol when we're closer to goal because we don't have as much to lose (literally) if it doesn't work out. I think that's why it's so important, at least for me, to be in a good head-space if and when I do another round. I want to make sure that I am committed to doing it and not start tweaking too much because I'm not fully in it.

Great discussion, you guys!

[TerriMM]

Originally Posted by shelbyla

So just another bit of musing from me... (and I'm putting my flame suit on even though I know all you ladies and gents can handle respectful debates as well as anyone...)

One thing that I think MAY IN SOME CASES contribute to slow or minimal losses in later rounds is that we get to a place where we are relatively comfortable with our bodies and we've done a few rounds so we think "This round I'm going to <insert some sort of non-protocol thing here>." Maybe it's mixing veggies. Maybe it's eating fat. Maybe it's having cream in coffee. Maybe it's adding extra protein or increasing calories or doing 500 on weekdays only. I think it's easier to deviate from protocol when we're closer to goal because we don't have as much to lose (literally) if it doesn't work out. I think that's why it's so important, at least for me, to be in a good head-space if and when I do another round. I want to make sure that I am committed to doing it and not start tweaking too much because I'm not fully in it.

Great discussion, you guys!

I couldn't agree more! Not only on this plan but all others I have had previous success with.

And by the by, if you're going to wear a flame resistant suit, you're going to need a little bit more material then your tiny winy bikini

[metqa]

Originally Posted by TerriMM

Thanks Metqa for both posts! It’s more the food limitations then the VLC thing. And you’re right, he lost and so did I on more of an 800 calorie day. I usually start out with 500 and then move up to alternating 800-1200 to keep losing when I stall. DH does more a consistent 800 ish.

As far as the muscle lose goes, I think you’re description of what happens makes a lot of sense. I stopped working out during both P2 rounds to lose more weight and I think it worked against me a little. When and if I do another round, I intend to maintain or slightly back off current levels and continue with lifting and Pilates throughout. I think that will cut back on any muscle lose, real or perceived, and benefit weight loss and stamina in the long run. I’m not a heavy exerciser, but I want to keep healthy and strong.

I'm glad to hear that that's been working for you and Hubby. It it weren't for BF bugging me about Callanetics, I'd not have realized I wasn't getting weaker last round and I attribute that to the extra protein, as rouge as that is. I actually had enough energy to dance about the house each day toward the end of my last round and that's generally unheard of.

Originally Posted by porkfatrules

The part I wonder about is the fat intake -- I completely get why eating a slightly higher caloric level could, theoretically, still work on HCG. And, adding protein and carbs makes sense if you want to do that. But, if you have a stream of fat coming in through food, why would your HCG then mobilize fat from your fat stores? That's the part I don't get.

If that's working for people, then what's the mechanism HCG uses? There's still the caloric difference, and HCG may be supporting fat loss by sparing muscle burning (I know, Metqa, I'm just theorizing here) or by minimizing the decrease in metabolism that goes with calorie restriction. Other than that, I can't explain the difference in fat burning --

I've been thinking about that for a while and I think that Dr. S got it right from his perspective and yet we know so much more about phyiology that what we thought we knew years ago just isn't true, IOW it was never true but we didn't know it then.

I think there are a lot of factors and if you think about the claims from different low carb authors they all make sense if you put it together.

Low Calorie = deficit. Energy IN Does Not Equal Energy OUT, But Energy OUT Requires Energy IN ( or Energy STORED) To keep the metabolism steady you must have ACCESS to a constant supply of energy. Whether it's from INTAKE or STORES doesn't really matter.

Low Carb = Deficit. Blood Sugar is required, Dietary carbs are not. protein and Fat can be used to make Blood sugar. Supply Protein and the body can supply Fat. But you must keep the metabolism high enough to use and require the blood sugar so you must also provide a constant supply of energy. Since only so much fat can be converted to Blood sugar and only so much can be burned for fuel you must supply the rest of calories, but as Fat to keep Blood sugar low enough to keep the body making it.

HCG=Hormonal Floodgate Opener. The body believes it needs to supply food for Guests, so it opens the kitchen doors and gives a free pass. Because it requires some deficit to lose weight, lowering the calories is necessary, but as we saw before creating a carb deficit also works. So even if you have dietary fat, your body will need to use all daily dietary intake and still need to use some body fat for making blood sugar and burning ketones, and burning freed fat.

So in that way HCG with Higher Fat still works if there is still a caloric deficit and more importantly a carb deficit. I'm afraid to try to do this with both high Carb and High fat because they are both fuels. IF yo lower one you must increase the other. That's why I think HCG can work with more fat, if the carbs are kept lower. All the fruit and grains would have to be more limited to allow it to work. That's my speculation.

Originally Posted by shelbyla

So just another bit of musing from me... (and I'm putting my flame suit on even though I know all you ladies and gents can handle respectful debates as well as anyone...)

One thing that I think MAY IN SOME CASES contribute to slow or minimal losses in later rounds is that we get to a place where we are relatively comfortable with our bodies and we've done a few rounds so we think "This round I'm going to <insert some sort of non-protocol thing here>." Maybe it's mixing veggies. Maybe it's eating fat. Maybe it's having cream in coffee. Maybe it's adding extra protein or increasing calories or doing 500 on weekdays only. I think it's easier to deviate from protocol when we're closer to goal because we don't have as much to lose (literally) if it doesn't work out. I think that's why it's so important, at least for me, to be in a good head-space if and when I do another round. I want to make sure that I am committed to doing it and not start tweaking too much because I'm not fully in it.

Great discussion, you guys!

Well, I hope that's not the case since I got the same losses with these changes as I did with the strictest protocol. I think the closer I get to goal the more I'd want to do a clean strict round BECAUSE i don't want the defeat of not getting to goal. My tweaks were not just for comfort or craving but because I really thought about the protein sparing aspect of it and based on the physiology I studied, which is 40+years newer than what Dr. S had available, the body would need a good bit more protein than what his plan allowed. I don't know if intent changes outcomes but if it does my intentions were to protect my body and I still got losses, but I can't deny it has made my plan easier. Last time I didn't eat more fat than was on the meat. I don't know if doing so will de-rail me, but Fozzie has been eating 70% fat and getting half pound losses each day, so obviously adding fat is not the killing factor Dr. S thought it was.

Great question and it IS something to think about when we make tweaks, how this tweak migh affect the result and if they are worth it. For me, more protein was worth it, as I didn't get cold, cranky, cold or weak. and I still lost at a rate that made me happy. When I get closer to goal, if my results change, i'll untweak or retweak or revert. But even people doing it spot on often get slow results or stalls near goal so doing it Purely Protocol is no guarantee of perfect results either.

[kimberlybimberly]

Originally Posted by metqa

That last 10lbs don't mean as much to me as that last 5 inches or so. I don't really care about the weight as much as the belly inches. Unfortunately I don't hear people talk as much about their inches loss as they do about pounds.

Exactly how I feel. I don't care what I weigh - I care what I look like!

Also, re: muscle loss and muscle weakness. As others have said in other words, I believe they are two completely different things.

[garnet10]

Originally Posted by kimberlybimberly

Exactly how I feel. I don't care what I weigh - I care what I look like!

Also, re: muscle loss and muscle weakness. As others have said in other words, I believe they are two completely different things.

I don't talk about how many more inches I have to go because I can't tell! So it's just easier to speak in pounds.

I also feel that my muscles are weaker and I have less stamina, but I don't think I've lost any muscle mass.

No reason he's here, I just liked him!

[minimonkey]

Well, I have no idea why the plan I chose is working, but it is! I am also averaging about half a pound a day, on about 80% fat. I am averaging about 1000 calories a day, with zigags from 800 to about 1200. I was inspired to try this by the eat fat/get thin folks, the Atkins fat fast, and Fozzie. The idea is to kick the body into a state where it uses fat for fuel -- the basis of all ketogenic diets.

I'd been stuck in the 118-120 range for MONTHS (following a planned gain for muscle building purposes, where I topped out at 122.6) -- and I couldn't make protocol or near-protocol work for me at all... I'd get weak, shaky, and super fatigued -- and starving --... and I wasn't losing anything at all, to boot.

This was a total experiment, but wow what a difference... I'm not hungry, and I am actually losing well and consistently. I'm going to do a lifting workout today, and we'll see how my strength is (I took a break from lifting because I had a flu-ish bug) -- but I am feeling encouraged that it will go well... I feel good today.

As far as muscle loss goes -- I do measure with calipers, so I have something of a scientific basis for calculating that, though they aren't infallible by any means. If I lose strength in lifting, that concerns me a bit, though it can indeed be temporary and not indicative of actual muscle loss. I'm fairly lean already, so my upper body muscles are pretty visible.... but at the moment, it seems that what I am losing is fat -- so I am keeping on keeping on. At the very least, this is a totally do-able plan for me.

I have no idea what role the hhcg is or isn't playing in this, but I am not going to tinker with something that is actually working! I hit 116.6 this morning... 6.6 pounds from my tentative goal. If I can get to 105 or lower without starting to look skinny and scrappy, I will... but I think I'd be pretty happy at 110 all things considered.

I am only 5 feet tall... but fairly muscular.

[garnet10]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Well, I have no idea why the plan I chose is working, but it is! I am also averaging about half a pound a day, on about 80% fat. I am averaging about 1000 calories a day, with zigags from 800 to about 1200. I was inspired to try this by the eat fat/get thin folks, the Atkins fat fast, and Fozzie. The idea is to kick the body into a state where it uses fat for fuel -- the basis of all ketogenic diets.

I'd been stuck in the 118-120 range for MONTHS (following a planned gain for muscle building purposes, where I topped out at 122.6) -- and I couldn't make protocol or near-protocol work for me at all... I'd get weak, shaky, and super fatigued -- and starving --... and I wasn't losing anything at all, to boot.

This was a total experiment, but wow what a difference... I'm not hungry, and I am actually losing well and consistently. I'm going to do a lifting workout today, and we'll see how my strength is (I took a break from lifting because I had a flu-ish bug) -- but I am feeling encouraged that it will go well... I feel good today.

As far as muscle loss goes -- I do measure with calipers, so I have something of a scientific basis for calculating that, though they aren't infallible by any means. If I lose strength in lifting, that concerns me a bit, though it can indeed be temporary and not indicative of actual muscle loss. I'm fairly lean already, so my upper body muscles are pretty visible.... but at the moment, it seems that what I am losing is fat -- so I am keeping on keeping on. At the very least, this is a totally do-able plan for me.

I have no idea what role the hhcg is or isn't playing in this, but I am not going to tinker with something that is actually working! I hit 116.6 this morning... 6.6 pounds from my tentative goal. If I can get to 105 or lower without starting to look skinny and scrappy, I will... but I think I'd be pretty happy at 110 all things considered.

I am only 5 feet tall... but fairly muscular.

Wow! I'm totally going to look at this method if I have difficulty with those last 10. I actually had to end this last round earlier than I had planned, for that very reason--I started to feel very weak/fatigued--I felt I could not continue. I'll be checking out the eat fat to get thin info.

[shelbyla]

Originally Posted by minimonkey

Well, I have no idea why the plan I chose is working, but it is! I am also averaging about half a pound a day, on about 80% fat. I am averaging about 1000 calories a day, with zigags from 800 to about 1200. I was inspired to try this by the eat fat/get thin folks, the Atkins fat fast, and Fozzie. The idea is to kick the body into a state where it uses fat for fuel -- the basis of all ketogenic diets.

I'd been stuck in the 118-120 range for MONTHS (following a planned gain for muscle building purposes, where I topped out at 122.6) -- and I couldn't make protocol or near-protocol work for me at all... I'd get weak, shaky, and super fatigued -- and starving --... and I wasn't losing anything at all, to boot.

This was a total experiment, but wow what a difference... I'm not hungry, and I am actually losing well and consistently. I'm going to do a lifting workout today, and we'll see how my strength is (I took a break from lifting because I had a flu-ish bug) -- but I am feeling encouraged that it will go well... I feel good today.

As far as muscle loss goes -- I do measure with calipers, so I have something of a scientific basis for calculating that, though they aren't infallible by any means. If I lose strength in lifting, that concerns me a bit, though it can indeed be temporary and not indicative of actual muscle loss. I'm fairly lean already, so my upper body muscles are pretty visible.... but at the moment, it seems that what I am losing is fat -- so I am keeping on keeping on. At the very least, this is a totally do-able plan for me.

I have no idea what role the hhcg is or isn't playing in this, but I am not going to tinker with something that is actually working! I hit 116.6 this morning... 6.6 pounds from my tentative goal. If I can get to 105 or lower without starting to look skinny and scrappy, I will... but I think I'd be pretty happy at 110 all things considered.

I am only 5 feet tall... but fairly muscular.

Whoohoo! So glad it's working for you, Mini! I don't even care why!

[porkfatrules]

Originally Posted by metqa

I've been thinking about that for a while and I think that Dr. S got it right from his perspective and yet we know so much more about phyiology that what we thought we knew years ago just isn't true, IOW it was never true but we didn't know it then.

Low Calorie = deficit. Energy IN Does Not Equal Energy OUT, But Energy OUT Requires Energy IN ( or Energy STORED) To keep the metabolism steady you must have ACCESS to a constant supply of energy. Whether it's from INTAKE or STORES doesn't really matter.

Low Carb = Deficit. Blood Sugar is required, Dietary carbs are not. protein and Fat can be used to make Blood sugar. Supply Protein and the body can supply Fat. But you must keep the metabolism high enough to use and require the blood sugar so you must also provide a constant supply of energy. Since only so much fat can be converted to Blood sugar and only so much can be burned for fuel you must supply the rest of calories, but as Fat to keep Blood sugar low enough to keep the body making it.

HCG=Hormonal Floodgate Opener. The body believes it needs to supply food for Guests, so it opens the kitchen doors and gives a free pass. Because it requires some deficit to lose weight, lowering the calories is necessary, but as we saw before creating a carb deficit also works. So even if you have dietary fat, your body will need to use all daily dietary intake and still need to use some body fat for making blood sugar and burning ketones, and burning freed fat.

So in that way HCG with Higher Fat still works if there is still a caloric deficit and more importantly a carb deficit. I'm afraid to try to do this with both high Carb and High fat because they are both fuels. IF yo lower one you must increase the other. That's why I think HCG can work with more fat, if the carbs are kept lower. All the fruit and grains would have to be more limited to allow it to work. That's my speculation.
. . . but Fozzie has been eating 70% fat and getting half pound losses each day, so obviously adding fat is not the killing factor Dr. S thought it was.

.

So, this makes total sense . . . but . . .
I still wonder why Dr. S had such a strong opinion about fat in P2. It wasn't just a general opinion based on guessing -- it was clinical judgment based on his patients. Remember that (ooky) story about the guy with the false eye whose weight loss turned out to be stalled because of touching the fatty eye ointment? What's up with that, and why are those responses to he found in his patients so different from the results Fozzie and Mini are getting?

I can totally imagine, without HCG, a restricted calorie high fat diet working -- high fat keeps you satiated, and restricted calories allows for fat loss. But the HCG part is what's making me go "hmmmm."

I have to go read the EFGT thread . . .

[TerriMM]

Originally Posted by porkfatrules

So, this makes total sense . . . but . . .
I still wonder why Dr. S had such a strong opinion about fat in P2. It wasn't just a general opinion based on guessing -- it was clinical judgment based on his patients. Remember that (ooky) story about the guy with the false eye whose weight loss turned out to be stalled because of touching the fatty eye ointment? What's up with that, and why are those responses to he found in his patients so different from the results Fozzie and Mini are getting?

I can totally imagine, without HCG, a restricted calorie high fat diet working -- high fat keeps you satiated, and restricted calories allows for fat loss. But the HCG part is what's making me go "hmmmm."

I have to go read the EFGT thread . . .

This is very interesting and exciting! Looks like I'll be checking out that thread as well.

[BusyMomOf4]

Originally Posted by metqa

Fozzie has been eating 70% fat and getting half pound losses each day, so obviously adding fat is not the killing factor Dr. S thought it was.

Has anyone gone through stabilization after doing it this way? If so, did they stabilize well?

[metqa]

MiniMonkey, I'll totally be watching your progress as well as Fozzie. Please keep us updated, if you don't mind being so public, about your menus, Nutrien% and losses. I'm very interested in how EFGT works for someone else. Y'know Fozzie could have been an anomaly, but if another person tries it successfully it will start a data trend. I'm considering it myself, I'm still stuck in the Protocol Low fat idea, so I have to make a mental shift. It feels like cheating to be eating High Fat + HCG but if it works...

Originally Posted by porkfatrules

So, this makes total sense . . . but . . .
I still wonder why Dr. S had such a strong opinion about fat in P2. It wasn't just a general opinion based on guessing -- it was clinical judgment based on his patients. Remember that (ooky) story about the guy with the false eye whose weight loss turned out to be stalled because of touching the fatty eye ointment? What's up with that, and why are those responses to he found in his patients so different from the results Fozzie and Mini are getting?

I can totally imagine, without HCG, a restricted calorie high fat diet working -- high fat keeps you satiated, and restricted calories allows for fat loss. But the HCG part is what's making me go "hmmmm."

I have to go read the EFGT thread . . .

Yeah, that blew my mind also, but there is also the phenomenon in studies that if something goes wrong, the final explanation is blame the patient. That's why diet studies can't be really conclusive unless you make people stay in a controlled setting and cook and moniter ALL of their food and substance uses.

I understand how the hormone is supposed to work under natural conditions so that part is easy for me to accept. Why FAT had to be excluded is what I accepted and what I'm wresting with as I see new results. Why did Eye-Ointment man stall? Why do people doing protocol exactly as written stall? Maybe it wasnt' the ointment or the lotion or the other things he says to avoid,maybe they were all strong coincidences/ correlations that is. Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that jive.

If he found the cause and then traced it back to the use of oils instead of the other way around maybe his suggestions would be different. But all he has was the observation that oils were used at the same time a person was stalling.

The idea would have to go like this:

-Oil which is absorbed into the skin, penetrates all the skin layers
- Somehow transports itself through the blood without the benefit of digestion and bile to breakdown and package it for delivery
-Somehow doesn't trigger the immune system to clean it out and ends up making it's way to the liver
-It's processed as fuel enough to supply a whole days worth of calories preventing body fat from burning....

..... No disrespect to the good Dr.S. But if our skin just let anything through to the blood that easily, we'd all be really sick or dead or evolved into a different creature like a jelly fish or something.

Companies have been trying for decades to made medicine that can penetrate the skin/fat barrier. Some things that are solvent or have the right polar ends can easily absorb like nicotine, but the body has a pretty darn good defense in the skin.

Besides that, food has to go through the gut to be sent on the right path for digestion. anything outside of that tube gets flagged as foreign and sends our immune system to attack. Fat's need Lipoproteins to transport them through the blood. It's be great if we could eat through our skin but we can't.

I think it was correlation and of course if you are burning fat you should not eat fat, and any fat could be digestible all together that made that precaution necessary back then. Must have been a lot of dry itchy rough skinned people back then.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by metqa

If he found the cause and then traced it back to the use of oils instead of the other way around maybe his suggestions would be different. But all he has was the observation that oils were used at the same time a person was stalling.

Yes, he seemed to find an effect (aka stall), then searched for a way to blame the patient. Now, if he grilled every patient who wasn't stalling on what oils they may have touched, he might have found just as many doing no-no's as the ones stalling. I believe in some cases he was simply affirming his prejudices.

That said, I admire his work and think he was ahead of his time...but don't think he got everything right - no one does!

From viewing the LCF board for years and years, it seems apparent that people lose differently on various macroratios of nutrients. Some need zero carb, some need 100 carbs, some need high fat/low protein. I think we all seem to differ in this regard. Simeon's basic diet was trying to cover all the bases and it does...just some of us may do better with it tweaked to fit our own losing ratios.

I have tried the lower protein / high fat ratios before and don't seem to lose as well as when I eat the lowest carbs and higher protein. I think one of the reasons I struggled so with hunger on Weight Watchers was I sacrificed protein points for things like popcorn or crackers. And again with Simeon's, a lot of my initial hunger was reduced when I traded in my fruit calories for extra protein. Thankful I found something that worked after so many years of struggle!

[LilacBruze]

Originally Posted by shelbyla

Ok, so it's probably cheesy to respond to my own thread but...

...and do any of us REALLY have 10 pounds left to lose or are we seriously comparing ourselves to some sort of crazy idealistic media picture of the "perfect figure." I live in Los Angeles (Land of the Size Zero, for those who don't know), so sometimes it's hard to tell...

I really have nothing of value to contribute to this thread, other than to echo the major group hugs and sources of inspiration (cough, Shelby and C'Marie).

But Shelby, having been to L.A. twice as a size 22/24, I was floored at the amount of attention men gave me there. One pursued me relentlessly for a date (this was before I was married) and when I finally gave him the speech of, "Why would you want a girl like me when everyone here is a supermodel", he was taken aback and stopped to think about it for a moment before replying, "Those supermodels are fake. Fake boobs, fake teeth, fake hair, even the color of their skin is fake. YOU, my dear, are a REAL WOMAN."

He got the date, lol.

[metqa]

Originally Posted by LilacBruze

I really have nothing of value to contribute to this thread, other than to echo the major group hugs and sources of inspiration (cough, Shelby and C'Marie).

But Shelby, having been to L.A. twice as a size 22/24, I was floored at the amount of attention men gave me there. One pursued me relentlessly for a date (this was before I was married) and when I finally gave him the speech of, "Why would you want a girl like me when everyone here is a supermodel", he was taken aback and stopped to think about it for a moment before replying, "Those supermodels are fake. Fake boobs, fake teeth, fake hair, even the color of their skin is fake. YOU, my dear, are a REAL WOMAN."

He got the date, lol.

SWEET ANSWER! SMART GUY!

[minimonkey]

Well said Metga and Paula -- I think the no-fat-on-skin thing is ridiculous, and I never did that -- scientifically it just made no sense.

I wouldn't have tried the fat fast thing except that I just could NOT make protocol, or anything vaguely close to it, work for me anymore. I tanked way too fast, and my body fought it every step of the way.

I am super glad I discovered this, though.... and I guess I get to be the guinea pig for stabilizing. I'm going to try doing a normal p3 and take it from there.

[shelbyla]

Originally Posted by LilacBruze

I really have nothing of value to contribute to this thread, other than to echo the major group hugs and sources of inspiration (cough, Shelby and C'Marie).

But Shelby, having been to L.A. twice as a size 22/24, I was floored at the amount of attention men gave me there. One pursued me relentlessly for a date (this was before I was married) and when I finally gave him the speech of, "Why would you want a girl like me when everyone here is a supermodel", he was taken aback and stopped to think about it for a moment before replying, "Those supermodels are fake. Fake boobs, fake teeth, fake hair, even the color of their skin is fake. YOU, my dear, are a REAL WOMAN."

He got the date, lol.

Is he still single?

[RedsSkinnyJeans]

I just found this thread with a search and I LOVE it!!

WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR OPINION?

I'm having a difficult time.
Yesterday morning I started a new bottle of drops. Starting yesterday at noon, (and after an hour long kick butt workout), I became pretty hungry for the first time on HCG. Hungry, tired, drained.

I have been hungry ever since. Had no stamina this morning.

Here is the thing, I think maybe I'm at goal.

How can I tell if my body has hit the end of the line, or if it's the new drops?

Any ideas?
Any help is very appreciated!

Thanks!

[privatediva]

My last (2nd) round was a 'vanity' round. I was on RX sublingual drops. I experienced exactly the same hunger control and loss pattern as I did on my earlier rounds even though I began with a BMI of 21.3 and had to add protein after two weeks to keep from going below 20...because I did not want to lose more than that.

What kind of HCG do you use, Red? How tall are you?

[RedsSkinnyJeans]

Hi :-)

Thanks for your input.
5"6", tiny frame. And I use the regular HCG drops - not from Netrition - but my family and friends have used the same type for a couple of years and they have always been good.

I did buy two bottles at once. I wonder if I should crack open the second one and dose from that. It seems like overkill to do that just for the next 2 days.

Did I mention that I'm hungry? Already had my apple, melba, and a double serving of P2 chili. I swear, if a pizza delivery man comes onto this block, I will mug him. (kidding!)

I am deeply grateful for anyone's help.


~Red~

[shelbyla]

Hey Red! I'm so sorry you're having the hungries! It sounds like you may have pushed yourself into starvation mode after the workout. I think sometimes we are so used to go-go-going that we think that we can do it on 500 calories just as well. The fat on our bodies isn't as readily available as food sources for the quick energy needed for a kick butt workout and IMHO when we push it, especially on P2, we can sap our adrenals which can make us super hungry.

OTOH, you are 5'6" and at 137'ish if I recall correctly from another post? I usually go by the old military standard of 5 pounds for every inch above 5' for a woman (it's rough and not always accurate but it's a decent measure without jumping through too many hoops) which would put your "goal" at 130. The last 10 pounds can be a real bugger and your body MAY be just slowing down and giving you a hungry slap upside the head! That said, I am 5'9" and breezed right past 145 and right to 139 in MY vanity round with no issues (and could have probably kept going) but I have had a devil of a time keeping it off. My body is bouncing between 143 and 150 and usually on the higher end of that so I can completely sympathize with "finding" goal.

Anyway, just wanted to respond and say hi!

I say that Debbie Diva poked her head in too. DD - I just have to say that you look absolutely incredible in your new avi. Your last round--vanity or no--looks wonderful on you. I hope you are pleased with it yourself.

[privatediva]

Thanks Shelby...I am pleased as punch. I start P4 tomorrow. I almost feel guilty saying this...but my P3 has been a total breeze, just like my first round. I am maintaining at 128-5'7" and it is just idiot proof for me (and I can be a real idiot sometimes!) Never needed a CD since the end of my first round last September. I have no explanation...and I feel for those of you who are having a rough time stabilizing. I wish I had a clue why this is so easy for me.

[privatediva]

Red...I don't know enough about the homeopathic HCG to know what to tell you. I've heard people talk about dose adjustment...and also doing better with fresh drops.

I tend to think it had to do with the workout...I was doing P90X before I started P2 and I absolutely couldn't do it (though I tried...felt like I had been run over by a truck...3 or 4 times) even though it was "exercise I was already doing" before I started VLCD. You may have put yourself in the position to have some fairly starved muscles there...That could take some time to recover. Eat some extra protein if you're dying...and i would SO crack open the new bottle. Holy cow...this diet is hard enough even when you aren't hungry!

[RedsSkinnyJeans]

Hello from someone who has only just recently arrived back down on the ground after being up the crazy tree for a day or so!

Well - today I ate. And ate.

Started with the apple and melba. Then a double serving of P2 chili. A couple hours after that a grapefruit. Then another apple. Then a double portion of lean steak and a double portion of asparagus. And since I wasn't done, I had a few strawberries.

I FINALLY feel like I'm not starving.

And I stopped dosing. I learned my lesson. Even though I had plenty of energy for that workout - I guess I overdid it.

So I stopped my dosing a day early; at 20 days. Worse things have happened. And if I want to use that bottle of drops again, I'll have a reliable back up handy before I start.

I'm expecting a gain in the morning - but I have a deep sense that my body needed this food, and it's not like I ate chips and ice cream. I'm going to take a sleeping pill and get a good long nights sleep so my body can repair and rest, and hopefully tomorrow I will have a more "sane" appetite. I'm telling you, I was OBSESSED! (And it's not like I had something upsetting happen and I had to eat because of that!)

Thanks everyone.

Onward !
~Red~

[privatediva]

Good...I couldn't stand the thought of the clear starvation signals going on there. And yeah....you fed yourself all excellent foods that I'm sure it was really grateful to get ahold of! Take care. You did well!

[wannabethin57]

privatediva-I remember you from doing my first round in Oct.!! You were and are very inspriational to me. I even printed out your P2 protocol from your dr. and I have it infront of me now! I started round 2p2 on 4/12 and I'm hoping to lose my final 10 pounds. I'm happy for your success!!!

I'm doing well, however my mornings are really hard! Hungry and can't wait to eat lunch!
My first round I did 40 days! I don't know how I did that! This round will be only 21 days, so it's doable, hunger and all. Can't wait to get back to eating sensibly the LC way.

Good luck all!

[TerriMM]

Originally Posted by wannabethin57

privatediva-I remember you from doing my first round in Oct.!! You were and are very inspriational to me. I even printed out your P2 protocol from your dr. and I have it infront of me now! Good luck all!

Care to share that again Deb?

[privatediva]

Sure Terri:

It's basically a very sensibly tweaked Simeon protocol...sort of Simeon for the modern world

Everything on the original protocol is ok EXCEPT the grains...no melba or grissini. (he has had so many patients who've had issues with wheat, so he said leave it out and I did because I know I've always had issues with wheat)

Protein can include (same size portions as Simeon) turkey breast or tuna in water. No ground beef at all no matter how lean, (made my chili with ground turkey or chicken breast) He felt it important to avoid all meat from animals who had been treated with hormones (said not to eat meat that stuff in it that made the animals get bigger...and that makes sense to me) so I ate only organic beef and chicken.

In addition to Simeon list, he added several lo-carb berries as well as peaches, nectarines and maybe a few other additional fruits I can't think of right now. He allowed 2 diet sodas a day as well as occasional sugar free jello in the individual packs as a snack (life saving, those little jellos). He didn't include any allowance for eggs or cottage cheese, but I did use them occasionally in place of my protein. When we had two long days of driving on vacation, he said the low carb Myoplex protein shakes would be fine protein substitution if I couldn't work out a different solution. I took them but didn't end up needing to do that. I did use protein powder in my second round, no problems.

All the cabbage family vegetables were included as well as peppers, mushrooms etc...and no problems with mixing vegetables. Lettuce was "free" and I did measure portions of veggies at 4 ounces usually. (I think the no mixing thing is probably the most 'superstitious' of the protocol claims, in my opinion)

I think that's about it. Not much different than Simeon. Still @ 500 cals a day. He said lotions/creams/cosmetics were fine and I did not alter my regimen at all. He wanted me to limit caffeine, which I did. He had me take green tea and potassium supplement and a multi-vitamin. My HCG prescription contained B-12. I took biotin also and magnesium.

No provision for "apple days". He also felt real strongly that weighing during P2 was not necessary or even desirable on a daily basis. He said I could weigh each morning UNLESS it made me anxious if I didn't drop or had a small gain. In which case, he said weigh once a week. If that caused me anxiety, he told me to put the scale in the garage and he would weigh me at the end of the month when my drops ran out. He gave me a lot of reading to do about stress related hormone cascades and how they effect the body's ability to shed pounds. I became a believer. In P2...peace is the key. If you are the type to get freaked out about up and down...a micro-manager in collusion with your scale to try to trick your body into doing something faster than it wants to...the anxiety is going to make the stall worse, not better. I drank beautiful tall glasses of lemon/cucumber water in a bathtub with candles nearly everyday...tried not to let anything get to me, even sending Amy off to boot camp. My family was helpful and understanding...tried to let me have my space because they understood this was important to me and my health. I honestly think that may have been the *most* important aspect of my doctor's plan.

The additional variety and freedom to mix things allowed

[Spoonful of Happiness]

privatediva, can you also post some P3 tips? I've read over a million threads and I am so lost. Day 4 and I've already had to do a correction day and still am 1.4 over my LDW.