Has Anyone Considered Switching from HCG to South Beach?

msack3889 · 08-16-2011, 12:11 PM

After completing 3 weeks of P3? I am going to want to lose more weight after P3, but I don't know that I want to continue on with HHCG. I had very similar results on P2 & SB last year...-12 lbs and -10.4 lbs respectively, and I found SB eating a lot, lot, easier.

Balance101 · 08-16-2011, 12:16 PM

I am planning on 2 more rounds, but SB is in the back of mind if my loss starts to slow down or if I need to lose a bit more after those rounds. I tried it before and loved it. I miss red bean mash!

msack3889 · 08-16-2011, 12:18 PM

And then I was thinking well would I start with Phase 1 in SB or go right to Phase 2?

I think I need to give it another 10 days or so (I'm on VLCD 9 now) to see how much I've lost to decide.

msack3889 · 08-16-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balance101

I miss red bean mash!

This sounds good; what is it?

Balance101 · 08-16-2011, 12:22 PM

It's from the South Beach Diet cookbook. I'll send it to you.

Cruzcrzy · 08-16-2011, 12:31 PM

I am subscribing to this thread. This is Round 2 for me on the hhcg. I had a terrific Round 1, great P3,P4 with no correction days. This round 2 has been less than stellar. Stats to the left, and that includes loading gain of 3.4, so my loss this round hasn't been all that great. I will not reach my goal weight. After I complete P3/P4 again, I would like to lose a little bit more, but, do not want to do it with the hhcg so I am looking for something else. I love eating higher fat, high protein, low carb. I did that on P3/P4 effortlessly and was very satisfied. I don't know much about SB diet, but, will research it.

msack3889 · 08-16-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balance101

It's from the South Beach Diet cookbook. I'll send it to you.

Thank you...that sounds so good right now!

verbqueen · 08-16-2011, 12:39 PM

I'm thinking I will probably go back to JUDDD, low carb style, to lose the last few pounds, when I finish with this round of hcg. Then I'll just get back on my old friend Atkins to maintain.

msack3889 · 08-16-2011, 12:58 PM

I like the idea of having cheese, nuts, etc while still losing. I wish I had kept a log of how many inches I lost when I did SB.

I like to have a plan, and I just don't know what I'm going to do. My goal is to lose 13 more lbs before Oct 15th.

Cruzcrzy · 08-16-2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msack3889

I like the idea of having cheese, nuts, etc while still losing. I wish I had kept a log of how many inches I lost when I did SB.

I like to have a plan, and I just don't know what I'm going to do. My goal is to lose 13 more lbs before Oct 15th.

Sounds glorious!!! I want to start losing again around Oct. sometime. I am having a tummy tuck/lipo and breast lift on Nov. 17, so that will take some fat off. My main goal after this round is to get healthy and strong for surgery. I feel so tired right now. Round 1 I had incredible energy, but, not this round. I have fatigue issues under normal circumstances. I've signed up for a fitness class that starts Sept 19 for 4 weeks, twice per week. I am pretty excited about it.

Wigglesmom · 08-16-2011, 05:36 PM

Just the other day I was having a conversation with my husband about once I get close to goal with hcg, I want to switch the whole family over to South Beach. We were both on it awhile ago and really loved the food choices but for me, I think it's more of a maintenance plan than weight loss plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruzcrzy

Sounds glorious!!! I want to start losing again around Oct. sometime. I am having a tummy tuck/lipo and breast lift on Nov. 17, so that will take some fat off. My main goal after this round is to get healthy and strong for surgery. I feel so tired right now. Round 1 I had incredible energy, but, not this round. I have fatigue issues under normal circumstances. I've signed up for a fitness class that starts Sept 19 for 4 weeks, twice per week. I am pretty excited about it.

Thread jack...I had a tummy tuck a few years ago. I went from 360+ lbs. down to 230. It was the absolute best thing I ever did for myself! Make sure you eat a lot of protein and drink plenty of water starting a week prior to surgery. It will help with your recovery. And a word of advice...don't get on the scale as soon as you get home! You'll be retaining water for a few days and even though you'll technically lose weight from the lipo and skin removal, you'll be up. It may take a month or two for all the swelling to go down. Good luck!

Cruzcrzy · 08-16-2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigglesmom

Just the other day I was having a conversation with my husband about once I get close to goal with hcg, I want to switch the whole family over to South Beach. We were both on it awhile ago and really loved the food choices but for me, I think it's more of a maintenance plan than weight loss plan.

Thread jack...I had a tummy tuck a few years ago. I went from 360+ lbs. down to 230. It was the absolute best thing I ever did for myself! Make sure you eat a lot of protein and drink plenty of water starting a week prior to surgery. It will help with your recovery. And a word of advice...don't get on the scale as soon as you get home! You'll be retaining water for a few days and even though you'll technically lose weight from the lipo and skin removal, you'll be up. It may take a month or two for all the swelling to go down. Good luck!

Thanks so much for the advice. I really appreciate it.

julieboolie · 08-16-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verbqueen

I'm thinking I will probably go back to JUDDD, low carb style, to lose the last few pounds, when I finish with this round of hcg. Then I'll just get back on my old friend Atkins to maintain.

I could have written this. I plan to do just that once I'm through my P4. I love Atkins, and have done so well with it, but at this point I don't seem to lose w/ it anymore. I don't like the low-fat side to SB, so I will try a calorie cycling Atkins approach this Fall. I only want to drop 5 more lbs. I shoudl be able to manage that much!!

sherrymyra · 08-16-2011, 08:05 PM

I would also like to lose about 5 more pounds. I don't know what to do. I am eating a p3 diet right now about 80 days off hcg. I plan on staying with this rather than adding starches and sugars back in. If I cut back on calories would I lose these last few pounds?

LaraSuzz · 08-18-2011, 12:10 PM

Yes you would lose weight, try it, I did.

Viola De Lesseps · 08-18-2011, 12:29 PM

I have considered this also. I'm doing another round of hcg in September, but I am considering South Beach to continue my weight loss after the holidays. It seems to be to be a healthy way to eat long term as well. I have some time to consider all my options, thankfully.

desifink · 08-18-2011, 01:40 PM

I'm thinking about it, or something like it. I miss exercise!

mousie tartufo · 08-19-2011, 07:12 AM

Just as an FYI, if you look around the HCG board, you'll see that almost **everyone** had a crappy Round 2. No one really knows why, but it seems to affect just about all of us, myself included.

RedsSkinnyJeans · 08-19-2011, 07:27 AM

I'm so glad you pointed that out! I hadn't noticed that trend with round two, but I'm sure living it, and I follow protocol to the letter. Is there a trend with round 3?

I have thought a lot about the maintenance plan as well. I recently got blood test results after doing ag 40 day P2 and a 70 days of P3 and P4. MY CHOLESTEROL NUMBERS WERE ALMOST IN HALF. I would never have believed it unless I had lived it. Rib eye steak. BUTTER. HWC. Amazing. Simply amazing. I did not have many carbs in P4.

From trends I have noticed in my body, it seems that I need to pick from Atkins or south beach.

msack3889 · 08-19-2011, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousie tartufo

Just as an FYI, if you look around the HCG board, you'll see that almost **everyone** had a crappy Round 2. No one really knows why, but it seems to affect just about all of us, myself included.

Thanks mousie

I am not considering this a R2 because I did HHCG for the first time a year ago and never stabilized in P3. (and I'm doing about the same this time as I did a year ago, so it seems more like I am doing HHCG for the first time vs. a R2). I hope that makes sense.

So I'm comparing how I did last year at this time the first time I did it to how I did on SB. There's only about a 1 lb difference, and SB was SOOOOO much easier and less restrictive.

I haven't found a reason (yet) why HHCG is better than SB for *me*, but I'm continuing to look.

privatediva · 08-19-2011, 07:46 AM

Although I am not planning another round of HCG, I'm wondering if the less than stellar subsequent rounds are hHCG rounds, or if people are having as little success on subsequent rounds of RX HCG. Anyone noticed?

TerriMM · 08-19-2011, 09:49 AM

I would like to add this perspective to the discussion. I am in day 15 of round two.
Round 1, day 15
Average loss per day .75
Percentage lost 4%
Pounds Lost 9
Starting distance from BMI goal 2.42%
Day 15 distance from BMI goal 1.91%

Round 2, day 15
Average loss per day .55
Percentage lost 2.94%
Pounds Lost 6
Starting distance from BMI goal 1.45%
Day 15 distance from BMI goal .66%

If you look at the top numbers, we all focus on, my round 2 looks far less effective than round 1. But because of where I started after pounds lost in round 1, my BMI improvement is considerably higher in round 2.

Not saying this works for everyone, just a perspective I got this morning after evaluating my own numbers.

shelbyla · 08-19-2011, 01:32 PM

I lost almost exactly the same amount of weight in my second round as I did in my first round (24'ish pounds both times). I did the homeopathic both times. I WILL say that my round two was different in that the weight loss was more stop/start than steady, which was what I had experienced in round 1. I do think a lot of this was my own fault because I screwed up my thyroid/adrenal meds and my supplements which caused me to retain water weight at the end of my round.

I think many lousy round 2's have something to do with some people (not all, obviously) tweaking the plan in their second rounds. Adding cream, half n half, or FF dairy to coffee. Upping protein. Mixing veggies. Using fat-free or carb-free products. Substituting cottage cheese or eggs too frequently (Dr. S says once a week, I think). Continuing to use lotions, creams, and conditioners. Now, I'm not saying don't do any of these things, BUT if you do choose to deviate from protocol, EVEN IF IT WORKED FOR YOU IN ROUND 1, this is where I would start looking if your weight loss stalls or you don't stabilize. Of course, drastic deviations in the plan (e.g. "cheating"), whether it's in P2 or P3, would be another question in my head relating to stalls or instability.

I think another thing that may cause folks to struggle is skipping too quickly back into P2. The 3 weeks of P3 IS the stabilization phase. Skipping back to P2 after less than three weeks could cause a less than effective "second round". I know a lot of tweaks to the plan allow and even encourage this but it's another place where I would question if this causes instability or stalls.

Anyway just my 2...er maybe 47?...cents on that topic.

Oh, and to the OP, I like fat WAAAAY too much to go back to SB.

msack3889 · 08-19-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyla

Oh, and to the OP, I like fat WAAAAY too much to go back to SB.

From which phase on HCG? Do you mean you don't want to go back to SB from P3? P4? I am confused LOL

shelbyla · 08-19-2011, 04:06 PM

I am in P4 and have low carbed a lot in the past, including SB. I will probably low-carb for continued maintenance but I don't want to go back to SB as a WOE because I like fat and SB is lower fat than Atkins. Clear as mud, huh?

msack3889 · 08-19-2011, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyla

I am in P4 and have low carbed a lot in the past, including SB. I will probably low-carb for continued maintenance but I don't want to go back to SB as a WOE because I like fat and SB is lower fat than Atkins. Clear as mud, huh?

Oh ok, but you're not looking to lose more weight, right? I am looking to lose at least 15-20 more lbs when I'm done with P2 & P3.

shelbyla · 08-19-2011, 05:56 PM

I've probably got about 10 more to lose. I think if I decide to do it, I will go with hcg again. i found it to be easier and more effective than any type of low-carb, which I wasn't losing on at all any more. If LC, of any sort still works for you, go for it!

TerriMM · 08-19-2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyla

I've probably got about 10 more to lose. I think if I decide to do it, I will go with hcg again. i found it to be easier and more effective than any type of low-carb, which I wasn't losing on at all any more. If LC, of any sort still works for you, go for it!

Holy Cow Girl,
Double, Triple Take!! You are absolutely stunning!! Whatever kool-aid you're pouring, I'm drinking! Point taken.

RedsSkinnyJeans · 08-20-2011, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyla

I lost almost exactly the same amount of weight in my second round as I did in my first round (24'ish pounds both times). I did the homeopathic both times. I WILL say that my round two was different in that the weight loss was more stop/start than steady, which was what I had experienced in round 1. I do think a lot of this was my own fault because I screwed up my thyroid/adrenal meds and my supplements which caused me to retain water weight at the end of my round.

I think many lousy round 2's have something to do with some people (not all, obviously) tweaking the plan in their second rounds. Adding cream, half n half, or FF dairy to coffee. Upping protein. Mixing veggies. Using fat-free or carb-free products. Substituting cottage cheese or eggs too frequently (Dr. S says once a week, I think). Continuing to use lotions, creams, and conditioners. Now, I'm not saying don't do any of these things, BUT if you do choose to deviate from protocol, EVEN IF IT WORKED FOR YOU IN ROUND 1, this is where I would start looking if your weight loss stalls or you don't stabilize. Of course, drastic deviations in the plan (e.g. "cheating"), whether it's in P2 or P3, would be another question in my head relating to stalls or instability.

I think another thing that may cause folks to struggle is skipping too quickly back into P2. The 3 weeks of P3 IS the stabilization phase. Skipping back to P2 after less than three weeks could cause a less than effective "second round". I know a lot of tweaks to the plan allow and even encourage this but it's another place where I would question if this causes instability or stalls.

I agree with this completely. I don't do ANY of those things. (The good folks who make shower-to-shower deodorant powder will back me up on this). And my Round 2 is barely moving. 2 weeks now. 2 pounds.

shelbyla · 08-20-2011, 07:22 AM

Big hug for you, Red...

A friend of mine did the plan and her second "round" after two weeks of P3, she had THREE 5 day stalls. Her "third" round (or second, depending on how you count them), she had ANOTHER three 4-5 day stalls. And she was letter perfect except for the 2 week P3 break. I can completely appreciate how frustrating it is!

08-16-2011, 12:11 PM	#1
msack3889 Senior LCF Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mass Posts: 505 Gallery: msack3889 WOE: HCG Start Date: 7/4/2012	Has Anyone Considered Switching from HCG to South Beach? After completing 3 weeks of P3? I am going to want to lose more weight after P3, but I don't know that I want to continue on with HHCG. I had very similar results on P2 & SB last year...-12 lbs and -10.4 lbs respectively, and I found SB eating a lot, lot, easier. Last edited by msack3889; 08-16-2011 at 12:13 PM..

08-16-2011, 12:31 PM	#6
Cruzcrzy Big Yapper!!!! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 9,443 Gallery: Cruzcrzy Stats: 183/130/128-131(5'5, FABULOUS 50!!)	I am subscribing to this thread. This is Round 2 for me on the hhcg. I had a terrific Round 1, great P3,P4 with no correction days. This round 2 has been less than stellar. Stats to the left, and that includes loading gain of 3.4, so my loss this round hasn't been all that great. I will not reach my goal weight. After I complete P3/P4 again, I would like to lose a little bit more, but, do not want to do it with the hhcg so I am looking for something else. I love eating higher fat, high protein, low carb. I did that on P3/P4 effortlessly and was very satisfied. I don't know much about SB diet, but, will research it. __________________ Marie The BEACH is my HAPPY PLACE.

08-19-2011, 09:49 AM	#22
TerriMM Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,432 Gallery: TerriMM Start Date: 5/18/11	I would like to add this perspective to the discussion. I am in day 15 of round two. Round 1, day 15 Average loss per day .75 Percentage lost 4% Pounds Lost 9 Starting distance from BMI goal 2.42% Day 15 distance from BMI goal 1.91% Round 2, day 15 Average loss per day .55 Percentage lost 2.94% Pounds Lost 6 Starting distance from BMI goal 1.45% Day 15 distance from BMI goal .66% If you look at the top numbers, we all focus on, my round 2 looks far less effective than round 1. But because of where I started after pounds lost in round 1, my BMI improvement is considerably higher in round 2. Not saying this works for everyone, just a perspective I got this morning after evaluating my own numbers. __________________ Figuring it out for the long run!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

08-16-2011, 12:16 PM	#2
Balance101 Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: CT girl in NC Posts: 1,010 Gallery: Balance101 WOE: hHcg Start Date: 10/1/12	I am planning on 2 more rounds, but SB is in the back of mind if my loss starts to slow down or if I need to lose a bit more after those rounds. I tried it before and loved it. I miss red bean mash!

08-16-2011, 12:18 PM	#3
msack3889 Senior LCF Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mass Posts: 505 Gallery: msack3889 WOE: HCG Start Date: 7/4/2012	And then I was thinking well would I start with Phase 1 in SB or go right to Phase 2? I think I need to give it another 10 days or so (I'm on VLCD 9 now) to see how much I've lost to decide.

08-16-2011, 12:22 PM	#5
Balance101 Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: CT girl in NC Posts: 1,010 Gallery: Balance101 WOE: hHcg Start Date: 10/1/12	It's from the South Beach Diet cookbook. I'll send it to you.

08-16-2011, 12:39 PM	#8
verbqueen Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 4,661 Gallery: verbqueen Stats: 224/163 WOE: hhcg, VLCD12	I'm thinking I will probably go back to JUDDD, low carb style, to lose the last few pounds, when I finish with this round of hcg. Then I'll just get back on my old friend Atkins to maintain.

08-16-2011, 12:58 PM	#9
msack3889 Senior LCF Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mass Posts: 505 Gallery: msack3889 WOE: HCG Start Date: 7/4/2012	I like the idea of having cheese, nuts, etc while still losing. I wish I had kept a log of how many inches I lost when I did SB. I like to have a plan, and I just don't know what I'm going to do. My goal is to lose 13 more lbs before Oct 15th.

08-16-2011, 08:05 PM	#14
sherrymyra Senior LCF Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 487 Gallery: sherrymyra	I would also like to lose about 5 more pounds. I don't know what to do. I am eating a p3 diet right now about 80 days off hcg. I plan on staying with this rather than adding starches and sugars back in. If I cut back on calories would I lose these last few pounds?

08-18-2011, 12:10 PM	#15
LaraSuzz Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 1,777 Gallery: LaraSuzz Stats: baby steps WOE: Dr. Atw Simeons Protocol Start Date: restart 3/5/2012 multiple rounds	Yes you would lose weight, try it, I did.

08-18-2011, 12:29 PM	#16
Viola De Lesseps Senior LCF Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 397 Gallery: Viola De Lesseps WOE: hhcg Start Date: Restart!!	I have considered this also. I'm doing another round of hcg in September, but I am considering South Beach to continue my weight loss after the holidays. It seems to be to be a healthy way to eat long term as well. I have some time to consider all my options, thankfully.

08-18-2011, 01:40 PM	#17
desifink Senior LCF Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: sunny (er, hot, humid, sticky) FL Posts: 415 Gallery: desifink Stats: 210/210/150 WOE: Hhcg Start Date: July 8, 2012	I'm thinking about it, or something like it. I miss exercise!

08-19-2011, 07:12 AM	#18
mousie tartufo Senior LCF Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 754 Gallery: mousie tartufo Stats: 216/169/140? WOE: hhcg/low carb	Just as an FYI, if you look around the HCG board, you'll see that almost everyone had a crappy Round 2. No one really knows why, but it seems to affect just about all of us, myself included.

08-19-2011, 07:27 AM	#19
RedsSkinnyJeans Major LCF Poster! Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,001 Gallery: RedsSkinnyJeans Stats: 170/144/140 Start Date: 4/1/11	I'm so glad you pointed that out! I hadn't noticed that trend with round two, but I'm sure living it, and I follow protocol to the letter. Is there a trend with round 3? I have thought a lot about the maintenance plan as well. I recently got blood test results after doing ag 40 day P2 and a 70 days of P3 and P4. MY CHOLESTEROL NUMBERS WERE ALMOST IN HALF. I would never have believed it unless I had lived it. Rib eye steak. BUTTER. HWC. Amazing. Simply amazing. I did not have many carbs in P4. From trends I have noticed in my body, it seems that I need to pick from Atkins or south beach.

08-19-2011, 07:46 AM	#21
privatediva Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: USA Posts: 2,544 Gallery: privatediva Stats: 128 (R2ldw 128) 5'7" WOE: healthful, delicious low carb Start Date: 6/28/2011 (started HCG) maintaining since 9/2011	Although I am not planning another round of HCG, I'm wondering if the less than stellar subsequent rounds are hHCG rounds, or if people are having as little success on subsequent rounds of RX HCG. Anyone noticed?

08-19-2011, 01:32 PM	#23
shelbyla Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 4,673 Gallery: shelbyla Stats: 210/141/140 WOE: hhCG, rx hCG Start Date: rx hCG R5 start 08/11/12	I lost almost exactly the same amount of weight in my second round as I did in my first round (24'ish pounds both times). I did the homeopathic both times. I WILL say that my round two was different in that the weight loss was more stop/start than steady, which was what I had experienced in round 1. I do think a lot of this was my own fault because I screwed up my thyroid/adrenal meds and my supplements which caused me to retain water weight at the end of my round. I think many lousy round 2's have something to do with some people (not all, obviously) tweaking the plan in their second rounds. Adding cream, half n half, or FF dairy to coffee. Upping protein. Mixing veggies. Using fat-free or carb-free products. Substituting cottage cheese or eggs too frequently (Dr. S says once a week, I think). Continuing to use lotions, creams, and conditioners. Now, I'm not saying don't do any of these things, BUT if you do choose to deviate from protocol, EVEN IF IT WORKED FOR YOU IN ROUND 1, this is where I would start looking if your weight loss stalls or you don't stabilize. Of course, drastic deviations in the plan (e.g. "cheating"), whether it's in P2 or P3, would be another question in my head relating to stalls or instability. I think another thing that may cause folks to struggle is skipping too quickly back into P2. The 3 weeks of P3 IS the stabilization phase. Skipping back to P2 after less than three weeks could cause a less than effective "second round". I know a lot of tweaks to the plan allow and even encourage this but it's another place where I would question if this causes instability or stalls. Anyway just my 2...er maybe 47?...cents on that topic. Oh, and to the OP, I like fat WAAAAY too much to go back to SB.

08-19-2011, 04:06 PM	#25
shelbyla Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 4,673 Gallery: shelbyla Stats: 210/141/140 WOE: hhCG, rx hCG Start Date: rx hCG R5 start 08/11/12	I am in P4 and have low carbed a lot in the past, including SB. I will probably low-carb for continued maintenance but I don't want to go back to SB as a WOE because I like fat and SB is lower fat than Atkins. Clear as mud, huh?

08-19-2011, 05:56 PM	#27
shelbyla Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 4,673 Gallery: shelbyla Stats: 210/141/140 WOE: hhCG, rx hCG Start Date: rx hCG R5 start 08/11/12	I've probably got about 10 more to lose. I think if I decide to do it, I will go with hcg again. i found it to be easier and more effective than any type of low-carb, which I wasn't losing on at all any more. If LC, of any sort still works for you, go for it!

08-20-2011, 07:22 AM	#30
shelbyla Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 4,673 Gallery: shelbyla Stats: 210/141/140 WOE: hhCG, rx hCG Start Date: rx hCG R5 start 08/11/12	Big hug for you, Red... A friend of mine did the plan and her second "round" after two weeks of P3, she had THREE 5 day stalls. Her "third" round (or second, depending on how you count them), she had ANOTHER three 4-5 day stalls. And she was letter perfect except for the 2 week P3 break. I can completely appreciate how frustrating it is!