Your thoughts on Re-feed days?

[kaylem]

This is super interesting.....I have been frustrated on my current round b/c my losses have been sooo much slower and I have been following a pattern where I will hold at a weight for two days, go up a 1/2 pound, and then drop on the fourth day by 1/2 to 1 pound.

And guess what? Today is day 21 for me. I was going to wrap things up this weekend b/c I was just so tired of not losing as I hoped and I have been craving foods like crazy. So, how about I'm the guinea pig? I will start tonight!

So the way I understand it, I will need 147 grams of protein and LOTS of refined starches, but not a lot of sugar. So, cookies and pies are out, but bagels, and sandwiches are in. My mouth is watering like crazy.

Ok, so I will begin this tonight, and end it at 8pm on Thursday night, all the while taking my drops. I will post to this thread (or maybe start another?) every day and let you know what happens. This is one experiment that I don't mind doing!

On to toast my bagel....

-Kay

[2011me]

I will try this in my extended round... but it won't be for another 21 days! And depending... I would do every 21 days there after during the round...which would allow for 4 refeeds in the 90 day round... we'll see. I will watch here for other's experience as well...

[catkin]

Is there a link and an author's name?
Thanks.

[JazzleBug]

So, is the HCG refeed synonymous with a mini-load? If so, here's a great video on youtube...

YouTube - My HCG Diet Journey R1 P2 Miniload Results VLCD...

[mirroravoider]

Originally Posted by kaylem

This is super interesting.....I have been frustrated on my current round b/c my losses have been sooo much slower and I have been following a pattern where I will hold at a weight for two days, go up a 1/2 pound, and then drop on the fourth day by 1/2 to 1 pound.

And guess what? Today is day 21 for me. I was going to wrap things up this weekend b/c I was just so tired of not losing as I hoped and I have been craving foods like crazy. So, how about I'm the guinea pig? I will start tonight!

So the way I understand it, I will need 147 grams of protein and LOTS of refined starches, but not a lot of sugar. So, cookies and pies are out, but bagels, and sandwiches are in. My mouth is watering like crazy.

Ok, so I will begin this tonight, and end it at 8pm on Thursday night, all the while taking my drops. I will post to this thread (or maybe start another?) every day and let you know what happens. This is one experiment that I don't mind doing!

On to toast my bagel....

-Kay

Haha, thanks for being our guinea pig Kay!! This is so very interesting, and the logic/metabolic science seems to make sense. I have so far to go to reach goal, that I'm afraid to stray very much. You are much more in the "leaner" catagory where it seems this strategy is optimal from what I understand from Jenn's post . Sooo looking forward to how your experiment unwaps! Good for you

[2011me]

Lots of info about this on bodybuilding sites... here is a short post I found offering an explanation to someone asking about refeeding:

This is my understanding as well. During a "cutting phase" a bodybuilder or athlete's diet will result in a net caloric deficiency when compared with their daily caloric expenditure. This will result in weight loss, but extended use will force the body into a "starvation mode" in which it will drop the metabolism and try to maintain body fat levels. Since the whole point of the diet is to maintain muscle and cut fat, a refeed day/meal will be incorporated as a way of telling the body, "Don't worry, we're not starving, keep dropping that fat." One this day the diet will usually result in slight caloric excess. As ultrafilter stated, on a cyclic ketogenic diet (or Timed Ketogenic Diet), the refeed will typically be a high carb day.

[2011me]

an article a little more in depth: (sorry... I am a research nerd)

What is a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet?

Just like it sounds, a Cycic/ing Ketogenic Diet is a ketogenic diet that cycles. In other words, this is not a diet you do day in, day out for X number of weeks, months or years: it is a diet that you break frequently. In fact, it is the only diet (that I'm aware of, at least) that you are supposed to break, and break often.

Anyone who has ever been in ketosis - for that matter, anyone who has ever tried low-carb eating for a few days - should be able to tell intuitively why the CKD exists. Being in ketosis is rarely enjoyable. For the first few weeks, there is an adaptation period during which most people report feeling run-down, depleted, "wasted", exhausted and / or tired. The slightest exertion (such as walking up a steep hill) causes muscles to burn. People feel irritable, out of sorts, and unable to make decisions.

If this was how you felt all the time in ketosis, it seems that few but the truly dedicated bodybuilders would do it. For most people these feelings disappear after the adaptation period, however, and are replaced with feelings of calm and more balanced, consistent energy. Not everyone is dedicated enough to wait long enough for the body to adjust, so the potential for burnout on a non-cyclic ketogenic diet (ie Atkins) can be high.

People crave carbohydrates during ketosis, for psychological as well as physiological reasons, and often what they most want are exactly the sort of high-glycemic, nutrient-devoid simple carbs that they were accustomed to eating before starting the diet. If you are maintaining a hypocaloric ketogenic diet, this temptation becomes even stronger, as the carb cravings are combined with the usual hunger pangs that accompany reduced calories.

A CKD offers a way to combat this. It offers a cyclical "refeed" (sometimes also called a carb-up). What happens during a refeed is that the dieting individual will change their diet to comprise mostly complex carbohydrates, limiting dietary fats as well as sucrose and fructose. Since the glycogen stores in their liver and muscles are depleted, these carbohydrates go straight to refilling them, instead of being added to the body's fat stores. For this reason, the amount of calories consumed during a refeed can be far above an individual's maintenance intake.

The goals of a refeed are threefold:

a) to refill depleted glycogen stores
b) to upregulate hormones and thyroid activity that is depressed during dieting
c) to provide a psychological "break" that makes the rest of the diet easier to bear

While both A and B are important physiologically, C is the linchpin of the CKD. If you know you'll be able to binge on bagels and milk in the near future, it makes adhering to your diet that much easier.

A refeed is also potentially dangerous, inasmuch as a careless individual can end up gaining fat, instead of merely achieving the three goals listed above. If you eat enough carbs to refill your glycogen stores and then some, you will get spillover into fat cells.

So, although a refeed is a much-needed respite after a long stretch of ketosis, the timing, duration and macronutrient composition of a refeed are crucial to the diet's overall success.

Guidelines for the Refeed

=Frequency=
The frequency of a refeed will vary, based on a variety of factors unique to each individual. The general guideline is that the leaner you are, the more frequently you will need to refeed. This is for reasons related to hormone upregulation.

A crude schedule for refeeding frequency follows:

for % body fat..............refeed:
>10%......................every 5th day
10-15%...................every 7th day
15%+......................every 15th day

These numbers provide a rough starting point only, and are by no means definitive. Like many aspects of a diet, you should experiment and see what works for you.

And, for those of us who don't have any idea what our present bodyfat percentage is (and don't have a handy pair of calipers), here's another rough guideline for deciding when it's time to refeed. While you are eating hypocaloric, you will start getting hungry (this is especially true on a hypocaloric ketogenic diet, as you have carb cravings to deal with as well). Eventually, you will cross a line from just being "hungry" all the time to being ravenously hungry and almost unable to think about anything else. You may also start having vivid dreams about food and eating. When this happens, you can generally be safe in the assumption that it's time to start a refeed.

=Duration=
In general, a refeed should not be longer than 36 hours. For many folks, the most convenient refeed period is the weekend. A hypothetical CKD'er could be hypocaloric throughout the week, and then start her refeed on Saturday morning and finish it with lunch on Sunday. Of course, this can be fudged a bit, depending on how careful one is with their actual food intake. There is a rough relationship between caloric intake and duration in that someone who wants to refeed more, faster, should probably also refeed for a shorter total period of time in order to avoid fat spillover.

The bottom line is your refeed duration should be governed by your targeted caloric intake. Once you've hit your calorie target, you're done refeeding - so if you want to refeed longer, eat slower. We'll discuss guidelines for setting your refeed calorie target below.

=Macronutrient Composition=
As mentioned above, the primary component of a good refeed is complex, low-glycemic carbohydrates. Fructose and sucrose (and all simple sugars) should be limited as much as possible: ideally, fructose intake should be less than 50g and sucrose less than 100g. Dietary fat should also be kept low, typically under 50g.

=Caloric Intake=
So, a refeed means you can eat as much as you want? Not quite. There is a maximum upper limit in terms of calories that you shouldn't push past: it is about 16-18 grams of carbs per pound of bodyweight. So our hypothetical CKDer who weighs 185 lbs would theoretically be safe eating 2,960 grams of complex carbs on his refeed day. If he also takes in some dietary fats or protein, that number would come down to allow for those other nutrients. Remember: fat is 9 calories to the gram, carbs and protein are both 4.

[kaylem]

Okey doke. Here I go! Are you girls ready to see what happens?

Here are my stats:

I am 37 years old
I currently weigh 148. My goal is 135. I have lost 30 pounds since Christmas Day.
This is R2P2D21

Re-Feed Day One of a 48 hour re-feed
I will eat 148g of protein and 222g carbs for two days and avoid extra table sugar.

Prior to 8:00pm tonight, I had consumed 533 calories. 18g Fat; 50g Carbs; 42.5g Protein

I just ate a toasted blueberry bagel w/ cream cheese
Bagel:
Calories: 220
Fat: 2g
Carbs: 43g
Proteins: 8g
Cream cheese:
Calories: 80
Fat: 6g
Carb:5g
Protein: 1g

Wow it was tasty. I probably won't be able to eat a whole lot more tonight, but since I am going from 8:00pm to 8:00pm, I'm sure I will be able to get there tomorrow. Ha!!

I WILL weigh myself each day (because I'm good like that ) and I will post what happens.

***WARNING****I will have to post in the evenings b/c I don't have access to this site from work, so you will have to be patient and check back tomorrow night!


Wow. I feel like such a rebel! (It's kinda fun, as I am such a rule follower... )

[2011me]

Rebel Kay! We got your back... excited for you and looking forward to your results!!!

[mirroravoider]

Just had to add.... So where is hcg in all of this??!! I thought that the whole methodogy (Simeon's) was that hcg would flush "bad" fat into the bloodstream when following the protocol, and ultimately re-set your hypothalmus after the re-set. Sounds like the theory discussed here has nothing to do with hcg at all -- simply the complexity of the body's metabolism trying to establish a balance to overcome starvation mode. Holy crap - where am I?!

Don't get me wrong - I am more than excited to learn anything that will get me to healthy, but wow - mind boggling how this all works!!!!

[mermaid]

I've had some experience with refeeds, and I think it can be just a meal or two of whatever you feel like eating, or a day, or a whole weekend. No need for counting calories, carbs, protein or whatever. Just eat what you want for a certain period of time and feel good about what you are eating. I don't believe we should ever stuff ourselves to the point of feeling putrid.

I conincidentally did a refeed today for one meal. It sure felt good! I hope that my losses will be better next week. Prior experience with refeeds has been to lose better afterward.

[JazzleBug]

I've only been able to quickly scan the last few posts before bed, but I want to point out that HCG is not synonymous with ketosis. Different methods here, so I'm wondering what, if anything, the articles on ketosis cycling etc. have to do with HCG and its affect on ABnormal body fat. I'm about to pass out, I'm so tired, but am anxious to get back to this thread tomorrow.

[Christalina]

Do you take the HCG while doing the refeed?

[2011me]

Originally Posted by mirroravoider

Just had to add.... So where is hcg in all of this??!! I thought that the whole methodogy (Simeon's) was that hcg would flush "bad" fat into the bloodstream when following the protocol, and ultimately re-set your hypothalmus after the re-set. Sounds like the theory discussed here has nothing to do with hcg at all -- simply the complexity of the body's metabolism trying to establish a balance to overcome starvation mode. Holy crap - where am I?!

Don't get me wrong - I am more than excited to learn anything that will get me to healthy, but wow - mind boggling how this all works!!!!

It is interesting... even the most minute changes done to the body (in and out) can create magnificent changes. I am learning so much about the intricacies with all my hormone balancing research. As interesting as it all is... still don't think I could have been a doctor! lol

[mermaid]

Originally Posted by mirroravoider

Just had to add.... So where is hcg in all of this??!! I thought that the whole methodogy (Simeon's) was that hcg would flush "bad" fat into the bloodstream when following the protocol, and ultimately re-set your hypothalmus after the re-set. Sounds like the theory discussed here has nothing to do with hcg at all -- simply the complexity of the body's metabolism trying to establish a balance to overcome starvation mode. Holy crap - where am I?!

Don't get me wrong - I am more than excited to learn anything that will get me to healthy, but wow - mind boggling how this all works!!!!

Some of us don't do protocol, and also use homeopathic HCG. Also, some of us don't lose very easily even on very low calories, so we need to shake things up ever so often to be able to lose well again. It is possible to get into starvation mode on HCG for some people. Everybody is different. Simeon wasn't a God, he didn't know everything about everyone, so no reason to think his protocol is the only way to lose weight with HCG.

I probably didn't really shed much light for you, but just expressing where some of us are coming from who maybe are a little older, a lot bigger, and metabolically resistant. We really have to be "over the top" sometimes with our methods because the standard stuff doesn't work for us.

[2011me]

Originally Posted by JazzleBug

I've only been able to quickly scan the last few posts before bed, but I want to point out that HCG is not synonymous with ketosis. Different methods here, so I'm wondering what, if anything, the articles on ketosis cycling etc. have to do with HCG and its affect on ABnormal body fat. I'm about to pass out, I'm so tired, but am anxious to get back to this thread tomorrow.

True, but many on vlcd and hcg end up in ketosis... not everyone... I was the entire time in my first round tho... but I go into ketosis rather quickly...

[mermaid]

Originally Posted by Christalina

Do you take the HCG while doing the refeed?

I think you could do it either way.

[2011me]

Originally Posted by mermaid

I've had some experience with refeeds, and I think it can be just a meal or two of whatever you feel like eating, or a day, or a whole weekend. No need for counting calories, carbs, protein or whatever. Just eat what you want for a certain period of time and feel good about what you are eating. I don't believe we should ever stuff ourselves to the point of feeling putrid.

I conincidentally did a refeed today for one meal. It sure felt good! I hope that my losses will be better next week. Prior experience with refeeds has been to lose better afterward.

I agree... it could be a simple as eating a 'real' meal... going out to dinner without freaking out about 'cheating'.

[JazzleBug]

And see, just for contrast, I don't lose on ketosis. I was in ketosis for 9 months straight on Atkins/Paleo and most of that time I was eating under 1600 calories and didn't budge from 214.

[dmw1212]

I have read several articles and started to do a refeed every Sunday. Since I started doing the refeeds I am now losing on average 2.5 pounds a week. I am so happy because my weight loss was really struggling. I have the things I miss most such as bagels, pizza, baked potatoes, pasta, even desserts. The funny thing is I fill up a lot faster than I use to and I don't want it again the next day. The next morning I go right back to my normal low carb life style. I agree with the articles ...don't weigh yourself the next day or two. The first time I did I freaked. It showed I had gained 3 pounds, but by Wed I was down those 3 plus 2 more. I would say give yourself 2 weeks to try it and see if it works for you.

[2011me]

Originally Posted by JazzleBug

And see, just for contrast, I don't lose on ketosis. I was in ketosis for 9 months straight on Atkins/Paleo and most of that time I was eating under 1600 calories and didn't budge from 214.

The body is crazy in what it will do and how it will adjust to 'survive'...

[2011me]

Originally Posted by Getting there!!!

Just had to bump this!

Thank you for bumping this!!!

[JazzleBug]

Originally Posted by 2011me

The body is crazy in what it will do and how it will adjust to 'survive'...

Seriously...if I were among a group of starving people on an island for months and months, I'd still be the first to go. LOL A lot, if not all, of this has to do with my being hypothyroid. I am on natural desiccated thyroid for it, but still...as they say, it should have at least leveled the playing field for me to lose weight.

Okay, I'm really off to bed now. Goodnight, all!

[kaylem]

Well, just call me impulsive....and ready to shake things up! But since I am being a guinea pig for the good of the whole and all....what do you all think, 24, 36 or 48 hours? Hcg or no?

[cookie34]

marking my spot.

[2011me]

Originally Posted by mermaid

Some of us don't do protocol, and also use homeopathic HCG. Also, some of us don't lose very easily even on very low calories, so we need to shake things up ever so often to be able to lose well again. It is possible to get into starvation mode on HCG for some people. Everybody is different. Simeon wasn't a God, he didn't know everything about everyone, so no reason to think his protocol is the only way to lose weight with HCG.

I probably didn't really shed much light for you, but just expressing where some of us are coming from who maybe are a little older, a lot bigger, and metabolically resistant. We really have to be "over the top" sometimes with our methods because the standard stuff doesn't work for us.

It may be possible that the idea of hcg immunity was more due to the starvation mode kicking in... but that is for another thread. Just wanted to say I agree with you here about shaking things up... especially in long term.

[2011me]

Originally Posted by kaylem

Well, just call me impulsive....and ready to shake things up! But since I am being a guinea pig for the good of the whole and all....what do you all think, 24, 36 or 48 hours? Hcg or no?

I am thinking of doing a 24 hr w/hcg when I try this... you may have to just play it the way you feel it tomorrow....

[mirroravoider]

Originally Posted by JazzleBug

And see, just for contrast, I don't lose on ketosis. I was in ketosis for 9 months straight on Atkins/Paleo and most of that time I was eating under 1600 calories and didn't budge from 214.

I have to agree with you Jazz. I use Ketostix every day and they always come out deep pink (indicates fat burning, for those not familiar). But still in almost 2 weeks I haven't lost an ounce consinstently. I do love the inches I've lost so far, but something is preventing WEIGHT loss. I need to see weight loss eventually, and it is not happening. This is probably why some people give up on weight loss plans - too much effort with little results. Need to find the formula!!!!

[mermaid]

Originally Posted by kaylem

Well, just call me impulsive....and ready to shake things up! But since I am being a guinea pig for the good of the whole and all....what do you all think, 24, 36 or 48 hours? Hcg or no?

I love that impulsive spirit!

How about 24 hours. That way it is different from a load, and not so long that we have to feel bad about what happens to you weight-wise, lol.

I just did a one-meal refeed, so I'll report back on that too.

[mermaid]

Originally Posted by 2011me

It may be possible that the idea of hcg immunity was more due to the starvation mode kicking in... but that is for another thread. Just wanted to say I agree with you here about shaking things up... especially in long term.

Yeah, I've wondered the same thing about the "immunity." You can't really be immune to a hormone.