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Old 12-11-2012, 12:45 AM   #1
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Suddenly not so sure about meat-based diet


Sure going low-carb helps to lose weight, but according to these studies it promotes cancer and heart disease and not because of the traditional reasons. Apparently meat has bacteria that causes endotoximia which causes a constant state of inflammation. Vegans had 8x the cancer fighting properties in their blood compared to meat eaters. Suddenly I feel like my world is turned upside down.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:11 AM   #2
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http://www.nel.gov/evidence.cfm?evid...mary_id=250379

Quote:
Conclusion
Limited evidence is available documenting that vegetarian diets protect against cancer. However, it suggests that vegetarian, including vegan diets, are associated with lower body mass index and blood pressure. Vegan diets may increase risk of osteoporotic fractures. The effect of vegetarian diets on cardiovascular disease, stroke and mortality are discussed further in Part B. Section 2: The Total Diet: Combining Nutrients, Consuming Food.
To me, it looks like the causality is indirect. It's not the fruits and veggies, but the lower BMI and blood pressure.

Last edited by Z; 12-11-2012 at 02:08 AM.. Reason: better data
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:43 AM   #3
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Sadly, an enormous amount of so-called "research" is politically and economically motivated. It's difficult to know who to trust anymore. You can find a body of evidence to support just about any theory you want, so long as you go into it knowing the answer you wish to find.

Here's how I see it: I trust mother nature. Human beings have been evolving for hundreds of thousands of years on meat and other natural (non-farmed) foods. Do you really think we'd evolve in such a way that eating such things would be bad for us?

In the end, you have to try what you think it right and see how it works. Some people do better with a vegan lifestyle, some don't. We're all on different paths and we have to find what works best for each of us. Hope that helps.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:12 AM   #4
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One of the problems is that the Internet provides a venue for 'scientific' studies to be promoted that are not in the least scientific but motivated by specific ideologies.

This is one of them.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:55 AM   #5
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and here is another study showing how beneficial low carbing is for cancer...

Dietary glucose affects the levels of a powerful oncogene in mice

our bodies are WAY complicated, and it's not just one thing or another. I have seen no evidence that low carbing is actually associated with cancer, have you?

another point is that many of us who are rabidly low carb don't really eat all that much meat.

Last edited by ravenrose; 12-11-2012 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:02 PM   #6
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Still can't get over his blood study which showed vegan blood had 8x the cancer fighting ability of meat eaters.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:21 PM   #7
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Can we say, "Cherry-picked data"?

Kind of like the study mentioned in "Forks Over Knives" where plant-eating countries had much lower instances of heart disease (or something like that).
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:27 PM   #8
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Can we say, "Cherry-picked data"?

Kind of like the study mentioned in "Forks Over Knives" where plant-eating countries had much lower instances of heart disease (or something like that).
That's why I wish Gary Taubes would get the funding for his research center so we could study all these competing claims. That's what he wants to do.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:47 PM   #9
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Some high profile celebrities, Linda McCartney comes to mind, died of cancer despite being life long vegans and having all those antioxidants.

Still, you should do what you feel best doing and what you feel is right for you.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:57 PM   #10
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this kind of hits home with me.
I've been doing low carb (more or less) for at least the past 15 years to manage my diabetes and was just recently diagnosed with breast cancer (don't know stage yet). Yes I eat more meat than a vegan (ha ha get it?), but I probably eat more veggies/salad than the typical American (I just eat too ()%*#$ much so I get the bmi/weight/overweight cancer connection.

Among other things, simply trying to figure out what to eat/not eat has been driving me crazy.

Some people say eliminate all dairy (I'd rather not if i have a choice) and red meat. I've also read the problem with the red meat is only if it's NOT entirely grass fed but does that mean minimal grass fed red meat or "as much as I'd like".

"obviously" i interested in modifying my diet for both the cancer AND diabetes but I'm just so ()%*#() %*%()*%)#(%* confused.

I know some paths are shared: eliminate sugar, grains but I don't know re the meat/eggs and I'm always suspicious of bias but I MUST do something.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:28 PM   #11
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I'm sorry you are dealing with this Shmabby. I hope your treatments will work well and you will be in remission in no time. Someone I love got this too, hormone related as so many are. Her diet? The couple of years before her diagnosis she was mostly vegan, trying to be but I think not 100% successful. She didn't eat meat because she's never been that drawn to it, but I think she did do dairy and wheat, bread, pasta and sweets things like that when she went off plan. Nowadays she's trying to do low carb paleo.

Cancer is probably way more complicated than just diet. She went thru chemo and surgery and now she's on a hormone binding medicine to take extra estrogen out of her body.

By the way, I have an aunt who got breast cancer in the 70's and she's still here at 90 something. I doubt they had all the knowledge and treatments back then that they do now.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:55 PM   #12
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Does anyone consider that vegan blood has more cancer combating properties because their bodies need them to prevent cancer due to their diet? Many vegans eat much more soy and other plant estrogens than average people. Those estrogens can contribute to hormone-related cancers. Our bodies are designed in ways to protect us. Insulin to get rid of extra sugar. Is it so far out of the realm of possibility to consider our bodies respond to extra estrogens in ways to protect us?

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Old 12-11-2012, 04:10 PM   #13
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8 times the cancer fighting power... it sounds like marketing. Like that commercial where the guy talks about the cleaning power of oranges. What does that mean exactly? Does 8 times more 'cancer fighting power' actually result in an eightfold decrease in cancer incidence among vegans? As someone else pointed out, how do those rates compare to an HFLC diet?
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by girondet View Post
I'm sorry you are dealing with this Shmabby. I hope your treatments will work well and you will be in remission in no time. Someone I love got this too, hormone related as so many are. Her diet? The couple of years before her diagnosis she was mostly vegan, trying to be but I think not 100% successful. She didn't eat meat because she's never been that drawn to it, but I think she did do dairy and wheat, bread, pasta and sweets things like that when she went off plan. Nowadays she's trying to do low carb paleo.

Cancer is probably way more complicated than just diet. She went thru chemo and surgery and now she's on a hormone binding medicine to take extra estrogen out of her body.

By the way, I have an aunt who got breast cancer in the 70's and she's still here at 90 something. I doubt they had all the knowledge and treatments back then that they do now.
Totally agree.

Nutrition research is still in it's infancy. There are things in fruits and veggies that we still don't understand. Foods have a way of working together with your system. I don't believe that we can just supplement with vitamins and get the same benefit.

The only research I have read concerns colon and breast cancer and it was not food related.

The lifestyle risks were:

Obesity
Too much alcohol
Low Vitamin D
No exercise
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by girondet View Post
Some high profile celebrities, Linda McCartney comes to mind, died of cancer despite being life long vegans and having all those antioxidants.

Still, you should do what you feel best doing and what you feel is right for you.
Linda McCartney was never a vegan, nor a lifelong vegetarian. She came to be an ovo-lacto vegetarian in the 70's, about 20 years prior to her death. I have one of her cookbooks and it's wonderful. Very heavy on the butter, cream, eggs and cheese and lots of fresh veggies. Before going vegetarian, she ate lots of meat from the family farm. I have no idea if meat consumption contributes to cancer but the more I learn about sugar, the more I worry about that connection above all others where diet is concerned.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:44 PM   #16
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Oops, I guess I should have researched this better. I repeated what I saw in another post somewhere...

Thanks for clarifying
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:09 PM   #17
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The lifestyle risks were:

Obesity
Too much alcohol
Low Vitamin D
No exercise

Re this for me:
obesity check
too much alcohol - nope I probably have one drink every other year
Low vitamin d - check was told that goes hand in hand with obesity, I've been taking 2,000 iu of D3 daily but haven't had lab done on this in a while
no excerise - nope for at least the past 7+ years I do 45 min of elliptical at least 5/week.

Thing is this, while some years I've been low carb, and some lower (than SAD) and an every so often day where I just ate whatever w/o any regard for the past 15 years I have no doubt that my diet was considerably lower carb than Standard American Diet.

for all i know, if not for low carb, maybe I would have had breast cancer earlier. I know I just eat too much - always have. With the exception of maybe 6 mos I've always been overweight.

Just found out I'm BRCA negative so the surgery will be the originally scheduled lumpectomy and I would really like some clear dietary guidelines to follow.

Is red meat bad or is red meat that isn't 100% grass fed bad?
same questions re dairy. Is all dairy bad or is organic less bad?
I need something I can stick with because:
1. I want to feel as though I'm doing something (v. just having surgery and taking meds/radiation/chemo
2. When i did low carb/low fat/low calorie, yes it worked but i despised every minute of it and couldn't sustain it but NOW the cancer is just freaking me out.
3. I don't think I'll ever know what caused it but I really need to try to live as long as I can (I have a 16 year old at home)

I read diabetes increases the mortality if you have breast cancer but I don't know if that means if it's not under control or just "having it"

fun times
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:39 AM   #18
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Shmabby, this is what I have read about cancer and diet most recently. Tumors are fed by the sugar/insulin cycle, not just sugar and it's best to keep the need for insulin as low as possible. That can be done with low carb, but also avoiding the more insulinogenic foods. I know that dairy and beef are considered higher insulinogenic than other foods. There are some charts that show the insulin generating level of various foods, but I think this has not been studied as well as say the glycemic indexes/loads and comprehensive charts can be hard to find.

If it were me, I'd look for the most natural food I could find, limit beef and dairy, use grass fed when I did have it, and eat lots of veggies, in wide variety. I'd use lemon juice as my fruit as it also seems to have some tumor fighting properties, as well as some mushrooms do too. Enoki mushrooms are the ones I believe. I'd exercise and cultivate positive thinking and make sure I'd get enough fresh air and sunshine and water and sleep. I'd also use whatever medications/surgery are available.

I will be praying for you to beat this, and that treatments will work, new discoveries will be made to help. People are definitely living much longer with it than ever before. As far as obesity goes, strangely I know of far more thinner and normal weight people who have gotten cancer than I do heavier and obese people.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:03 AM   #19
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It all can seem soooo overwhelming! I think the above advice sounds so positive tho and it lets you be in control of at least this part of your life. And I agree - not sure there is any definate type of diet/body type etc. that gets more cancer than others. I've lost two dear friends in the last 15 years and both were vegetarians who walked miles each day and were the envy of the rest of us who didn't have their discipline to keep up that way of eating and exercise. On the other hand, two other close friends were diagnosed with breast cancer in the last 5 years and both are here and fine and disease free. Both are heavier and eat meat, veggies,fruits and grains and sugar! Go figure. If you are doing the best you can and doing what seems right for you and trying to limit stress in your life, you are probably way ahead of the game!
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:00 AM   #20
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Really. What's a health conscious person supposed to believe?
I can't help but think that the old axiom "all things in moderation" is really
the best.
If I eat little enough to keep my weight down in the preferred range, and I eat
a variety of fresh or freshly frozen foods, then I am probably doing as much as I
can, dietarily speaking to optimize my health.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:23 AM   #21
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I hope nothing I say here is offensive to anyone (if so, I'll blame it on the cancer )

to "all things in moderation" whenever I hear that I think while that may true in a vacuum or in a person I don't think that's otherwise true. For example, if someone is an alcoholic, i don't think anyone would say that person should consume alcohol in moderation even though some "studies" show positive benefits from some moderate alcohol consumption. The wisdom on the street is for that person to ABSTAIN. So, why wouldn't that be true for other conditions? Perhaps some of us need to ABSTAIN from other things?

Re I know that dairy and beef are considered higher insulinogenic than other foods. What does "insulingenic" mean? How much beef (assuming it's 100% grass fed) is ok? Same question for cheese?
I realize some of these questions don't have answers but right now all I'm trying to do is create a ()%#*%()%* grocery shopping list not to live forever because I know I won't but to nourish my body for cancer, radiation, and possibly chemo

You read one site that says consume flax, which I do, then you read another that says if you have breast cancer, AVOID flax, then a third says it's neither good/bad.

If the problem with beef is strictly with feedlot, grain fed animals then do I need to restrict my consumption of grass fed beef (other than I'll have to due to $ constraints?) Again, are we talking
grass fed beef not to exceed 1 lb/week, 2 lb/week, etc?
Guess I'll start googling insulingenic
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:33 AM   #22
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I do excercise, but think for at least 1 -? weeks post surgery I probably shouldn't.
I do eat veggies, lots of salad, broccoli, and cauliflower
I also do eat eggs.
I don't use tobacco (but did over 17 years ago), and I don't drink alcohol.

Again, I'm not so much trying to figure out the cause for "my" cancer, cause I think that's as waste of time, I'm just trying to come up with a week's worth of daily meals because being a chronic overeater I really don't know how much is too much and if there are foods where "too much" doesn't matter (ie is too much brocolli a problem???)

I gooled insulingenic and meat/dairy didn't come up on the few sites I looked at.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:11 PM   #23
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Hi Shmabby, I looked up insulinogenic foods and came up with some sites that discuss the subject. Here are 3, if you are interested. It looks like there can be variations in individual responses so that's something to think about. Just like there are individual responses to various carbs. One of these articles considers a high insulin response to be a good thing, as pushing the pancreas to make more insulin keeps blood sugar lower. Hah, not for me thanks, I'd rather not raise my blood sugar much to begin with if I can help it and be well nourished.

Highly Insulinogenic means that the insulin response is out of proportionately high compared to the glycemic response to the food. If there is little sugar/carbs why is so much insulin required for digestion? No one seems to know. It does have health implications though for insulin resistance, diabetes, and I think one of the articles mentions cancer too.

Dairy contains extra hormones fed to cows to keep them producing milk all the time, not just when they have calves to feed. We get those hormones when we eat dairy.

How much of any of these we should consume, and if grass fed matters in regard to the insulin thing I don't know. I just keep in mind that I might want to limit these foods.

I wish there were clear answers too. We can only pick and choose what we think might help us and do the best we can.

Someday maybe we will be able to tailor our food and meds to our genes and individual metabolic circumstances.


Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/94/1/182.full.pdf

Low Carb Diet - The Definitive Resource For People in The UK
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:45 PM   #24
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"Dairy contains extra hormones fed to cows to keep them producing milk all the time, not just when they have calves to feed."

That's not exactly true. one hormone is a growth hormone that can cause an Increase in lactation volume, another increases fertilization for calving, but the cow can't produce milk when it hasn't calved and that period of time afterward might be long, but they eventually dry up which is why they have to be bred each year. if they are not bred again they won't make any more milk no matter how much grown hormone they might be given. Many cows could be calved up to 10 times and still give good milk for a long time, but they are often culled before that because it's not the length of time they give milk, but the volume of milk over a short time that matters. if a cow can't produce a high enough VOLUME of milk, then they are removed from the milk market and sold to the meat market.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmabby View Post
I do excercise, but think for at least 1 -? weeks post surgery I probably shouldn't.
I do eat veggies, lots of salad, broccoli, and cauliflower
I also do eat eggs.
I don't use tobacco (but did over 17 years ago), and I don't drink alcohol.

Again, I'm not so much trying to figure out the cause for "my" cancer, cause I think that's as waste of time, I'm just trying to come up with a week's worth of daily meals because being a chronic overeater I really don't know how much is too much and if there are foods where "too much" doesn't matter (ie is too much brocolli a problem???)

I gooled insulingenic and meat/dairy didn't come up on the few sites I looked at.
Hi shmabby,

I was admitted to hospital with diverticulitis. I was in severe pain. I too went searching for what could have caused this and what should I be eating to stop me having it again. I found this site called "Fibre Menace"
http://www.gutsense.org/fiberm…..cript.html

by Konstantin Monastyrsky

You probably believe fiber prevents colon and breast cancer, lowers cholesterol, reduces the risk of heart disease, regulates blood sugar, wards off diabetes, curbs the appetite, induces weight loss, cleanses the colon, arrests diarrhea, and unplugs constipation. Tragically, none of this is true!

In fact, fiber-rich foods and fiber supplements are either the primary cause of most of these conditions, or major contributors. Please watch my investigative report to learn the truth. If you consume fiber for any health reasons, the next 14 minutes will turn your life and health around:

Please have a read and watch the video. The more info you have the more choice you have.

Good luck
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:14 AM   #26
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I don't take fiber supplements but my dietary choices run towards items with more rather those with less fiber

non-cancer abdominal pain related
well at least i have a definitive answer here-
CAT scan (which was the ONE test NOT ordered by the urologist who has since because the person known as my former urologist) ordered by gi because i was thinking diverticulitis since it' couldn't be kiidney stone since urologist (former) had me experience and pay for mulitple in offic tests with nothing concrete

kindey stone of 6.9 mm and some thinkening of some body part.

Also had two lumpectomies since 12/19 but thank God will nOt need a masectomy.

Tuesday morning I meet with oncologist and new urologist.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:16 AM   #27
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ps
as far as contibuting causes- i think it's because I'm always always dehydrated.

I cut out liuqids I shouldn't have and hate what I'm left with

Struggling through downing water wiith lemon
good by soft drinks and crystal line
mininmizing coffee
drinking some decaf black tea but I really don't like green
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:17 AM   #28
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that link doesn't work
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:25 AM   #29
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Sorry about the link please try this.
What Is So Menacing About Fiber?

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Old 01-13-2013, 05:57 AM   #30
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got it that one works
thanks
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